Need help - Warlock advice

[Nasagi]

Hey guys, I need some help. Just found out we're going to start running an alternative campaign under a different dm/player in the group to give our current (and only) DM a break/time to play with us. That's all well and good, but I need some help building/figuring out a warlock.
It's the only class I've not played in 5th and I was looking at the Pact of the Blade, but not sure which Patron or how to build him using the standard array or point buy. ANY tips would be appreciative. I'm figuring a Half Elf for the +2 to Charisma, but am open to any suggestions at all on builds or just general advice.
Pact of the Blade is just the most fun looking one to me. I don't know the party's current composition except that I know for sure we will have a rogue and a ranger. But we have enough players to be able to have a solid composition all around.
As always I love you guys and ya'll rock!

[Crgaston]

I'm kind of torn on the warlock. I'm playing one, but she was originally a sorceress who got eaten by a shambling mound and got resurrected by a demon with the caveat that she became a warlock with fiend patron. She is Chain pact (her familiar is keeping an eye on her for the demon). She makes a fantastic archer with Eldrich Blast,, but having only 2 spell slots is limiting to the point of being a pain in big combats. We don't take short rests often.

Having an invisible scout is fantastic, but might step on your rogue's toes a bit. Blade sounds fun, and probably what you'd want to take. Fiend is a no brainier for blade pact, as you'll be combat oriented and THP on a kill is pretty strong once you get to mid levels. Mine makes sure to poison spray a rat or pigeon every morning. She doesn't know why, but in makes her feel SO good.

She's the party face, and I'm having more fun with her out of combat than in. She's certainly adequate, but her persuasion skills are where she shines.

Good luck, and have fun!

[NecroDancer]

If you want to be a bladelock then choose the feind pact, also cast armor of agathys before you go into combat.

[Corran]

Taking the first level as a fighter and then continuing with warlock usually helps a lot. That is if you have a str warlock using a heavy weapon (or S&B?) and in heavy armor in mind.

If you instead a more dexterous type, then taking a couple of rogue levels can be helpful too. Namely for cunning action.

[Belac93]

For Pact of the Blade, you first want to decide whether you want to go strength or dexterity. Strength has higher damage, but dexterity has better defence.

Take and spam Armour of Agathys, that spell is a lifesaver. Take Armour of Shadows if you don't have any other way to get AC.

For a half elf and point buy, you can start with 16, 16, 16, 10, 8, 8. Or 16, 16, 14, 12, 8, 8 if you are going strength.

Also, check out this Warlock guide. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?485736-Selling-your-Soul-at-a-Premium-The-Warlock-s-Guide-to-Power)

[bid]

Taking the first level as a fighter and then continuing with warlock usually helps a lot. That is if you have a str warlock using a heavy weapon (or S&B?) and in heavy armor in mind.
I second this opinion.

Bladelock almost needs to start fighter 1 and go polearm to work better than blastlock.

Half-elf can give you Str16 Dex10 Con14 Int10 Wis10 Cha16. If you only care about self-buffs, you can Cha14 as variant human and start with polearm master.


You might prefer an all Dex party for stealth reasons, in which case chainlock would give you strong scouting abilities. You can fighter 1 for medium armor and stay at Dex14.

I feel Dex bladelock only works as rogue MC.

[Corran]

I feel Dex bladelock only works as rogue MC.
Yeah, rogue2/ warlock 3 has some very nice tricks to it (devil's sight, darkness, cunning action hide), especially if you start as a vhuman to take the actor feat (mask of many faces, actor, friends). Expertise stealth and deception. Also, invisibility.

[JakOfAllTirades]

I played a Fey Pact BladeLock for 15 levels (w/3 levels of Rogue/Swashbuckler) and it was a blast. (See what I did there?)

The Swashbuckler's synergy w/the Warlock class is hard to beat, since they add CHA to their Initiative. And the Bladelock really benefits from the +2d6 Sneak Attack. The Fey Pact spell list gives you extra ways to get initiative from the get-go (Faerie Fire for the win!) so it's a good fit for the Swashbuckling BladeLock, too. Also, the Swashbuckler's defenses and mobility compensate for some of the Warlock's biggest weaknesses, IMHO.

[Tikkun]

Hi ! Incoming walls of text so please bear with me.

Are you committed to a single class or are you willing to multi-class? If you want to play a Blade Pact Warlock recognize that you will need a minimum of 12 levels in Warlock to achieve your goal ( the 2 eldritch invocations of Thirsting Blade--a second attack--and Lifedrinker--adding your CHA modifier as necrotic damage to your attacks). This pretty well predicates a high STR and CHA stat build. As I view it, INT and DEX are throwaways. My rationale is that with high STR and CHA and being a low HP class that will probably be dependent upon CON checks a lot the points are pretty well pre-determined. On a point buy, I would suggest STR 15 DEX 8 CON 15 INT 8 WIS 10 CHA 14. With Half Elf bonuses that is a 16 in STR, CON and CHA.

The most useful spells a Warlock has, imho, are the Eldritch Blast cantrip ( with Agonizing Blast invocation); the level 1 spell Hex ( a 1d6 damage boost and don't forget the debuff to one mob stat of your choice ); the level 2 spell Darkness ( with the Devil's Sight invocation ) which will pretty well keep you at the advantage and the mob at the disadvantage, and; the level 1 spell Armor of Agathys ( an incredible spell--cast at higher levels the damage and THP increases by 5 per level ( cast it at level 4 and that is 20 hp damage to mob and 20 THP to you on only one of it's 5 uses) !!! The trouble is that warlocks hurt for spell slots. In my AL games, our DM has 1 or 2 multi mob slug fests before even a short rest.

How to solve the spell slot problem ( and the CON check issues also )? Take 8 levels of dragon sorcerer. That is a few more HP via Draconic Resilience and the ability to add your CHA as a damage mod to spells using your dragon ancestry ( and the ability to resist said damage for 1 sorcery point ) and a proficiency in CON saves. You will have a pile of slots to 4th level, 8 sorcery points to make new ones, the ability to cash in your Warlock slots to make more first or 4th level slots. Now you can use Darkness on yourself as a safety net with a 4th level Armor of Agathys ready to pounce.

I will not get into feats though I suggest you peruse Warcaster and Alert feats to assist with any problems. Additionally, while melee might be fun, that EB with the metamagic Quicken from Sorcerer will cause some massive damage and can be used from a distance and inside the Darkness you cast ( with the metamagic Extend I hope for 20 minutes of true Warlock MUHWAHAHA).

I have been working on another build which uses the Warlock key spells but is more melee oriented and relies on other classes. If you want some information on that feel free to let me know here, but, I would advise that it is not primarily a Warlock build.

Good Luck and let us know how it is going.

[Klorox]

As noted above, as well as many other places, the most optimal way for a bladelock is to start with one level as a fighter.

I know I thought this was unfortunate, but after working the numbers for quite some time, I agree with this common thought.

If you're set on being a single-classed bladelock, I suggest a mountain dwarf for the medium armor (wow, a mountain dwarf build that actually benefits from the medium armor proficiency!).

I'd recommend a greataxe, maul, or greatsword once you reach level 3. Fortunately, as a mountain dwarf, you can take advantage of the axe or hammer proficiency at levels 1 and 2 (that's *twice*!).

[Mandragola]

You can make a good strength-based bladelock as a v. human as well, without needing any fighter levels, but the standard array makes it harder. Are you set to that, or is point buy allowed?

Anyway, you start with 15, 10, 14, 8, 8, 15 as your stats. You add the v. human +1 to strength and cha, then take medium armour proficiency to get another +1 str. Dex isn't required for your only "10", so put that in int or wisdom if preferred. Starting with 17 str and 16 cha - better than the dwarf can do, and with shield proficiency for what it's worth - and a skill.

Like most people I'd recommend fiend pact for a bladelock. The extra hp are a great thing to have on the front line. You can mess about with telepathy and stuff if you're stood at the back.

To start with you can just blast stuff. Try and buy yourself a shield from your background's cash, and maybe some medium armour if using cash buy rather than standard equipment. Your EB will be exactly as good as anyone else's to start with and you'll have AC 15 or 16 in scale and a shield, which is ok.

It's not hugely important what invocations you take at 2nd. I'd go for devil's sight and agonising blast I think. Continue blasting.

At 3rd you pick up your pact blade. That's nice, if you want to chop at stuff with a longsword. Go right ahead, or continue blasting. Probably depends on the fight which is preferable.

Then at lvl 4 you can take the heavy armour proficiency feat. Now you have 18 strength, 16 cha and are proficient with heavy armour. You're ready to go to the full plate shop and have your pact blade become a maul or whatever.

And at 5th you get your second attack without delaying for your fighter level. Off you go.

I like this build because there's no delay to spell progression, getting your second attack, and eventually lifedrinker. You aren't behind the curve on your main attribute but your character works fine "out of the box" zapping things at level 1, so you won't be a liability until your build kicks in properly. Variant humans are a compelling choice for warlocks because their one major weakness - the dark - is easily remedied by devil's sight. Plus it's no bad thing to get a free skill that you can put where you like.

I'm also finding that a spellcaster should try not to use a shield if at all possible, or at least not with a weapon in their other hand. One of the most important spells from lvl 3+ is counterspell, and you need a free hand for that. A greatsword will let you do that but a rapier and shield won't. I therefore prefer strength builds for dex builds for pact of the blade.

It also helps that you've got the right stats to MC as a paladin if you feel like doing so later in your career. Or sorceror, or whatever you like. The only major downside is that you aren't sneaky at all, but you can't have everything.

[Citan]

Hey guys, I need some help. Just found out we're going to start running an alternative campaign under a different dm/player in the group to give our current (and only) DM a break/time to play with us. That's all well and good, but I need some help building/figuring out a warlock.
It's the only class I've not played in 5th and I was looking at the Pact of the Blade, but not sure which Patron or how to build him using the standard array or point buy. ANY tips would be appreciative. I'm figuring a Half Elf for the +2 to Charisma, but am open to any suggestions at all on builds or just general advice.
Pact of the Blade is just the most fun looking one to me. I don't know the party's current composition except that I know for sure we will have a rogue and a ranger. But we have enough players to be able to have a solid composition all around.
As always I love you guys and ya'll rock!
Hi! ;)
If you go single-class, light armor only proficiency means that you probably will have to go Dex based. For further advice, I'll let people having playing single-class Warlock speak (didn't myself).

If you are ready to multiclass, many orientations may affect your final build.
1. Which weapon: STR-based weapons? Paladin or Fighter. DEX weapons? single-class, Rogue or Sorcerer (more on that later).

2. Which kind of spells? Self-buff = whichever. Save or suck spells = Constitution saving throw proficiency will help = advantage Fighter.

Basically, if you plan on being a melee Warlock that uses non-concentration spells, the best dips will be Paladin for STR-based and Rogue for DEX-based.
Starting as Paladin gives you all needed proficiencies, a nice HP boost, and going Paladin 3 gives you plenty of good things (smite, spells and Oath, either Devotion or Vengeance. I'd suggest Devotion because you will have plenty to do with bonus action but it's up to you).
Starting Rogue and taking Swashbuckler gives you Expertise, plenty of mobility and great Initiative.
You can always take Resilient: CON or Warcaster later if you feel the need for it.

With that said, if you want only a one-level dip AND want Constitution saving throw proficiency, then start as Fighter for a STR-based build (because heavy armor proficiencies and Constitution saving throw) or Draconic Sorcerer for a Dex build (natural armor 13+Dex, extra hp, spells and cantrips, Constitution saving throw proficiency).
Both options will net you a 18 AC in the end and Constitution saving throw (at the price of Wisdom saves though) for only one level.

If you don't care about starting with Constitution saving throw (because you won't use save or suck spells, or you plan on taking Resilient/Warcaster later), you can follow above advice to get medium/heavy armor if STR-based, or take the "free Mage Armor" invocation at start and switch it for another later if you feel you don't need it anymore.
Have fun!

[Gastronomie]

Taking the first level as a fighter and then continuing with warlock usually helps a lot. That is if you have a str warlock using a heavy weapon (or S&B?) and in heavy armor in mind.I second... um, third... um, fourth... fifth... sixth... just, uuuuuh, whatever, I also support this statement.

Taking Great Weapon Master using V-Human and spamming Darkness + Devil's Sight for advantage is a pretty fun combo. War Caster improves your concentration for Darkness even more.

My advice is to take the Eldritch Invocation "Fiendish Vigor". This is more important than either Agonizing or Repelling Blast. This gives you unlimited False Life, meaning you always gain 8 temporal HP in-between every single combat (you can re-use False Life unlimited times, so repeat its use until you get 1d4=4). This is absolutely insane, as well as extremely under-rated. What? But Dark One's Blessing gives me temporal HP already! Yes, but you already have low HP from being a Warlock, and besides, you're not always the one who gives the final blow (even if you dealt 99% of the damage to a particular enemy, unless you're the one who killed it with the last attack, you can't gain the HP from that ability).

[bid]

Then at lvl 4 you can take the heavy armour proficiency feat.
That's 2 feats to match that fighter 1 MC, an excessive cost. I'd rather be 1 level behind in spell progression.

[Mandragola]

That's 2 feats to match that fighter 1 MC, an excessive cost. I'd rather be 1 level behind in spell progression.

Fair enough. There are benefits to going fighter first. You get proficiency with all weapons, not just your pact blade; you get a fighting style and you can use your feat on GWM. Con saves, too.

I don't see the feats as that huge a cost though, as they give you +2 strength between them. In effect it's just one feat less than a v. human would have if they started as a fighter.

I mainly think this makes sense from RP perspectives. The idea that a surprisingly-charismatic fighter decides to sell his soul to a fiend during play at level 2 is a bit tricky for me to get my head around. A character that turns up already a warlock has had years to make bad choices.

And also, to be honest I think that a lvl 1 fighter is better off just staying a fighter. No MADness, more attacks, action surge and so on are probably better than the hassle of getting a decent charisma mod, so as to make lifedrinker worthwhile.

[Malifice]

Also strongly support 1 level in fighter.

Then 5 of lock (Fiend)

Then either 2 more of Fighter (but a solid argument can be made for 2 of Paladin).

[Klorox]

I think it's important to note that you can choose to concentrate on STR more than CHA with a bladelock, as adding CHA to damage comes much later.

[Mandragola]

I think it's important to note that you can choose to concentrate on STR more than CHA with a bladelock, as adding CHA to damage comes much later.

Well, yes and no.

On one hand, if you're hitting people with a strength weapon most of the time then strength is your primary attribute. It wants to be 20 as soon as possible.

The thing is, a bladelock always has to answer this question: If you wanted to hit things, why are you not a fighter, paladin or barbarian? A Warlock with a low charisma doesn't have a good answer to this question.

Those characters tend to hit stuff harder, without needing to mess about with multiclassing, feats and so on - though as they are less MAD than the bladelock they have more chance of getting feats. The warlock's advantage is that it gets higher-level spells. But if it can't actually cast them very well, then there's a problem. And if you get to lvl 12 and get lifedrinker, but only add 2 or 3 to your damage from your charisma modifier, then why have you bothered? The other guys again got at least as good a bonus as that without becoming MAD.

If you've got str 20 and cha 18 at 12th level, it's not miles behind what those other guys will be doing. It's still behind, and way behind the burst potential that the paladin and fighter have, but you make up for that by having 5th level spells to throw around and a devastating ranged option in EB.

[bid]

The thing is, a bladelock always has to answer this question: If you wanted to hit things, why are you not a fighter, paladin or barbarian? A Warlock with a low charisma doesn't have a good answer to this question.
Actually the question is: If you didn't want to hit things, why are you not a chainlock or tomelock?

[Mandragola]

Actually the question is: If you didn't want to hit things, why are you not a chainlock or tomelock?

Sorry but I don't agree. There's no argument, mechanically at least, for a bladelock that ends up just being a less good version of a paladin. The only argument is for a character that can hit things and cast spells pretty well.

[Gastronomie]

Fair enough. There are benefits to going fighter first. You get proficiency with all weapons, not just your pact blade; you get a fighting style and you can use your feat on GWM. Con saves, too.

I don't see the feats as that huge a cost though, as they give you +2 strength between them. In effect it's just one feat less than a v. human would have if they started as a fighter.

I mainly think this makes sense from RP perspectives. The idea that a surprisingly-charismatic fighter decides to sell his soul to a fiend during play at level 2 is a bit tricky for me to get my head around. A character that turns up already a warlock has had years to make bad choices.

And also, to be honest I think that a lvl 1 fighter is better off just staying a fighter. No MADness, more attacks, action surge and so on are probably better than the hassle of getting a decent charisma mod, so as to make lifedrinker worthwhile.The Bladelock's main thing is not DPR. Everyone thinks Bladelocks are inferior versions of Fighters, but most of them are looking at only the DPR and nothing else - which is far from a "fair view". (Add how most of the time, Bladelocks will be damaging better than it says in math, 'cause of Darkness and GWM.)

The main thing about Bladelocks is their amazing versatility. At high levels they also get insane stuff like Hold Person on 4 targets, Command on 5 targets, Banishment on 2 targets, and 25 THP and 25 damage to attackers without a save. To be fair, other Warlocks also get these, but still, the fact that a Melee character has these is important. And I think I already mentioned Darkness + Devil's Sight (something only Warlocks can do).

Bladelocks can also regenerate like crazy using THP. And attacks against him have disadvantage, if you've cast Darkness on your pact weapon (and who doesn't like the idea of a guy whose greatsword is shrouded in darkness?) Not exactly a Barbarian, but he's quite a good meat shield too.

Bladelocks always have a nasty trick or two up their sleeve. They're extremely efficient at what they do. They're extremely underrated, and are a powerful class.

As for "why the Fighter makes a pact", an old character I made had it like this: the guy has already made his pact, and as his first level of progression, has been gifted the "talent" of a master swordsman (level 1 Fighter). Guy was originally heavily disabled via being nearly killed by the antagonists, so his pact started off by first fixing that problem. After he's got a hang of how to use his sword skills, the spells and stuff finally start to kick in.

[bid]

Sorry but I don't agree. There's no argument, mechanically at least, for a bladelock that ends up just being a less good version of a paladin. The only argument is for a character that can hit things and cast spells pretty well.
Your argument is pretty confusing. You are saying one thing and its opposite.

You don't want to boost Str and be a fighter. You must have a high Cha to cast attack spells. Why act like a blastlock?

You have so few slots that self-buffing will use them all. It seems that "you can choose to concentrate on STR more than CHA with a bladelock" and Cha18 is good enough for level 12.

[JakOfAllTirades]

I agree 100% with Gastronomie. (Awesome avatar, BTW!) The BladeLock doesn't need a level in Fighter because it has enough going for it already. They're simply not meant to slug it out on the front lines like a fighter or a paladin -- they're magical skirmishers with a huge repertoire of arcane dirty tricks to use in combat. They've got tons of ways to disadvantage their enemies (Darkness, Bestow Curse), punish anyone who hits them (Armor of Agathys, Hellish Rebuke), or simply mislead them outright (Invisibility, Mirror Image). Sometimes they're not even where you expect them to be. (Misty Step, Blink) And they're extremely accurate, with a good list of spells for granting advantage. (Faerie Fire, Darkness+Devil's Sight, Improved Invisibility.)

Taking a Fighter level just slows down their casting progression for all of the above.

The BladeLock starts off with Light Armor, then gets Mage Armor at will at 2nd level. If you can get +1 Studded Leather, retrain the Armor of Shadows Invocation for something else; you don't need it any more. If you're focusing on Finesse weapons, your 13+DEX AC should be at 18 by level 12. That's just as good as Plate Armor. At level 12, you've got Life Drinker and you're done taking BladeLock levels. You should also have at least an 18 CHA. Now take 4 levels of Rogue for the Swashbuckler archetype. Bump your CHA to 20. You've got everything you need: a Pact Blade Rapier with 1d8+1d6+10 damage, and +2d6 SA damage you'll get every round, and +10 INITIATIVE. You've got four levels left for whatever; knock yourself out. Sorcerer, perhaps?

[Klorox]

Wait Jack, on one hand, you say one level of fighter slows the spellcasting down too much, but then say to add four levels of rogue?

I'm confused.

[Tikkun]

Once you have 12 levels of Warlock you have done all you can do to be a bladelock after that take whatever you like....fighter, rogue, etc. Earlier I suggested Sorcerer to deal with the the problem of limited spell slots. Taking a level of fighter first gives you heavy armor, all weapons, a shield and CON saves.

By the time you hit level 3 in Warlock you have 2 level 2 spell slots which can be used for Armor of Agathys ( 10 dam and 10 THP per hit on you ) and Darkness which will give you the advantage in melee. So 1 level of Fighter makes the first 2 levels go easier but at the cost of delaying your Warlock levels. Whether heavy armor/shield is worth the trade off is a toss up depending on what any particular player wants. As to weapons, it is meaningless for bladelock once they hit level 3. I hate to repeat myself but the reality is that a bladelock is a decent skirmisher with some nice magical oomph via EB cantrip and agonizing blast. But the Warlock will always suffer from the low number of spell slots it gets. Darkness is great but lasts 10 minutes and the slot is gone. Hopefully all the mobs are dead and a short rest is coming. If not things will get tight.

[Easy_Lee]

With a Ranger and a Rogue in the party, I'm not sure that you'll need to play a blade-pact warlock. The question, for me, comes down to party composition:

If the ranger and / or rogue are going to be primarily ranged, and you'll have no other melee toons, I'd go blade.
Otherwise, I would go pact of the tome.

Here's why pact of the tome: chain's main advantage is having a familiar who can scout well. You have a ranger and a rogue, both of whose toes you'd be stepping on if you tried to play primary scout. With pact of the tome, you can bring lots of arcane spells and, more importantly, ritual casting. Neither rangers or rogues get ritual casting without a feat. And pact of the tome is, arguably, the best ritual caster there is.

I'd also be tempted to go Great Old One for patron, just because it's so unique and will add a lot of stuff that ranger and rogue don't do. Fiend is all about damage, and it sounds like your group has plenty already. Fey is about avoidance, which you may need if there isn't a front-liner, but might not.

[Mandragola]

Your argument is pretty confusing. You are saying one thing and its opposite.

You don't want to boost Str and be a fighter. You must have a high Cha to cast attack spells. Why act like a blastlock?

You have so few slots that self-buffing will use them all. It seems that "you can choose to concentrate on STR more than CHA with a bladelock" and Cha18 is good enough for level 12.

What I'm saying is that a bladelock who focuses solely on strength and doesn't have a good charisma score is just a bad paladin. You cannot make a blade lock that hits as hard as one of the primary bashing classes, so you shouldn't try to.

Instead, by having a decent charisma score, you can hit stuff when appropriate, spam EB at range and chuck fireballs or mind-affecting spells when needed as well.

And this is why I find it a bit odd for a brutish fighter to mc as a warlock. By doing so, he gets to be less good at beating people up than if he never sold his soul in the first place. It's not a great deal!

[deathadder99]

I have been working on another build which uses the Warlock key spells but is more melee oriented and relies on other classes. If you want some information on that feel free to let me know here, but, I would advise that it is not primarily a Warlock build.


Colour me interested

[Gastronomie]

And this is why I find it a bit odd for a brutish fighter to mc as a warlock. By doing so, he gets to be less good at beating people up than if he never sold his soul in the first place. It's not a great deal!You're looking from the point of view of a player reading the book. What you haven't put into consideration is the fact that a majority of people in the D&D world with the abilities that are classified "Fighter" from an out-of-character view will end their progression before they hit level 5. The reason not being because "they stopped there", but rather because "that was their limit of talent".

What if a guy who aspired to become a great warrior realized that he wouldn't be able to achieve his dream on his own? What if he gets a fatal wound, or gets heavily disabled? What if he needs to get strong - quick - to save a love, or otherwise do something really special, something that can't be achieved unless he makes the contract?

There are many situations in which making a contract with the Devils for power can be an understandable option for the character as a "human being".

I agree 100% with Gastronomie. (Awesome avatar, BTW!) The BladeLock doesn't need a level in Fighter because it has enough going for it already. They're simply not meant to slug it out on the front lines like a fighter or a paladin -- they're magical skirmishers with a huge repertoire of arcane dirty tricks to use in combat. They've got tons of ways to disadvantage their enemies (Darkness, Bestow Curse), punish anyone who hits them (Armor of Agathys, Hellish Rebuke), or simply mislead them outright (Invisibility, Mirror Image). Sometimes they're not even where you expect them to be. (Misty Step, Blink) And they're extremely accurate, with a good list of spells for granting advantage. (Faerie Fire, Darkness+Devil's Sight, Improved Invisibility.)

Taking a Fighter level just slows down their casting progression for all of the above. Thanks on the avatar and thanks for agreeing with what I said, but I actually did support dipping 1 level Fighter... lol. (BTW, avatar was made by Professor Gnoll, based off the character Yaya Tokaz from the extremely minor manga Kukul and Nagi. Googling it wouldn't get up any images, so if you're interested this page (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?448993-Request-an-OotS-style-Avatar-14-Even-More-Revenge/page10) includes some pics.)

I was simply saying that "Pure Fighters are completely superior to Bladelocks" is a misunderstanding.

[Rummy]

Sorry but I don't agree. There's no argument, mechanically at least, for a bladelock that ends up just being a less good version of a paladin. The only argument is for a character that can hit things and cast spells pretty well.

+3 to Cha is not low.

My 2 cents... I'm playing a blade lock that started as fighter, picked up 5 levels of warlock, then added a level of fighter. Nothing beats dishing out two fireballs in a row, as long as you can get at least two baddies. Also, I just mow through mooks. My favorite tactic is casting hex during the first combat and keeping it up the rest of the day. That way I can still have Hex on after I regen spell slots after a short rest.

[Rummy]

I agree 100% with Gastronomie. (Awesome avatar, BTW!) The BladeLock doesn't need a level in Fighter because it has enough going for it already. They're simply not meant to slug it out on the front lines like a fighter or a paladin -- they're magical skirmishers with a huge repertoire of arcane dirty tricks to use in combat. They've got tons of ways to disadvantage their enemies (Darkness, Bestow Curse), punish anyone who hits them (Armor of Agathys, Hellish Rebuke), or simply mislead them outright (Invisibility, Mirror Image). Sometimes they're not even where you expect them to be. (Misty Step, Blink) And they're extremely accurate, with a good list of spells for granting advantage. (Faerie Fire, Darkness+Devil's Sight, Improved Invisibility.)

Taking a Fighter level just slows down their casting progression for all of the above.

The BladeLock starts off with Light Armor, then gets Mage Armor at will at 2nd level. If you can get +1 Studded Leather, retrain the Armor of Shadows Invocation for something else; you don't need it any more. If you're focusing on Finesse weapons, your 13+DEX AC should be at 18 by level 12. That's just as good as Plate Armor. At level 12, you've got Life Drinker and you're done taking BladeLock levels. You should also have at least an 18 CHA. Now take 4 levels of Rogue for the Swashbuckler archetype. Bump your CHA to 20. You've got everything you need: a Pact Blade Rapier with 1d8+1d6+10 damage, and +2d6 SA damage you'll get every round, and +10 INITIATIVE. You've got four levels left for whatever; knock yourself out. Sorcerer, perhaps?

I play a tank bladelock in AL and I can out tank everyone except bear barbs. I started as a Vuman Fighter with Heavy Armor Mastery, making me the ultimate tank right out of the shoot. By the time we started running into bigger hitting baddies at third level, I had unlimited False Life and THP from soul stealing. Constant THP plus 3 damage reduction allows me to avoid HP damage many fights. If my THP armor is breached, I can Second Wind the next round.

In addition to being a boss tank, I am now a howitzer at level 7... blasting fireball twice in a row. The barb just grins and says, " Not again" as I scorch him and his opponents. Resistance and Advantage on the Dex save from my "Fire in the hole" warning means that he is doing okay while the mooks he is battling are flaming corpses.

[CursedRhubarb]

Bladelocks are weird for casters. They can definitely get away with buffing Str or Dex to max and letting Cha be below max. 17-18 is amazing for them and even 15-16 can be perfectly fine.

The reason for this is that with your melee stat maxed you get the normal +5 to damage and then the +2 or +3 from Cha is a nice boost making it +7 or +8 per hit. Your Cha can be lower since the bladelock has access to a lot of spells that work for them that aren't affected by a lower spell mod. Darkness works amazing for them with the Devil's Sight combo. They can get levitate for free and misty step for maneuverability. Hex doesn't rely on spell mods and if you've good Con or grabbed the War Caster feat concentration will be a breeze for it.

Many push for the Polearm Master with Glaive style but you can do just fine with a one handed or versitile weapon. This also lets you have the option to have a Rod of the Pact Keeper in your off-hand if you manage to get one and even a +1 rod makes up for lower Cha by adding to your spell attacks and spell DC, plus an extra spell slot per long rest! Can also be used as a club for an off-hand attack if desired to go with your eventual 2 pact weapon attacks and multiple attacks become amazing if you've hexxed the target.

You're melee damage will be fine. You won't likely be the top damage but you've access to some great spells to make any combat encounter to your party's advantage, don't be afraid to pass on a chance to hit something so you can give a party member a boost or help them out of a sticky situation. You're in a party and you will be one of the most versitile people in it.

[Mandragola]

+3 to Cha is not low.

My 2 cents... I'm playing a blade lock that started as fighter, picked up 5 levels of warlock, then added a level of fighter. Nothing beats dishing out two fireballs in a row, as long as you can get at least two baddies. Also, I just mow through mooks. My favorite tactic is casting hex during the first combat and keeping it up the rest of the day. That way I can still have Hex on after I regen spell slots after a short rest.

Yeah +3 isn't low. +2 feels a bit low though, especailly if it stays down there even at lvl 12. And Multiclassing does delay your ASIs a bit.

I think that bladelocks should probably get medium armour proficiency for free along with their pact weapon. Then if they wanted they could take heavy armour at lvl 4.

To be honest, I think my main objection to multiclassing as a fighter at lvl 1 is that it's annoying that you kind of have to, to make the subclass work properly. That doesn't feel like good game design to me. So I've been looking at whether it's possible to get around the problem.

[Tikkun]

Bladelock is just a melee variation on a Warlock skirmisher. There are other ways of being a melee/caster hybrid. For example, at level 3 go Tome Pact. Grab shillelagh, booming blade, GreenFlame blade or whatever else floats your boat. Take 3 levels in Sorcerer to get metamagic and get twinned spells. Put minimum points in STR but push CHA as much as possible. Dual wield clubs. Cast twinned Shillelagh on your clubs. Poof !! You now have 1d8 magic weapons and the attack and damage rolls use your CHA modifier on each weapon!! Pummel away. ( As a sidenote I tried to do this with Quaterstaves--which can be wielded one handed--and using the PAM feat. Alas my DM ruled against me claiming it was "too creative"--whatever that means :) ). Actually QS are not listed as 'light' is what we ended up agreeing on.

[JakOfAllTirades]

Wait Jack, on one hand, you say one level of fighter slows the spellcasting down too much, but then say to add four levels of rogue?

I'm confused.

The time to MC a BladeLock into Swashbuckler is after level 12, once you've got both of the must-have Invocations. OTOH, most of the STR-based MC/Fighter builds I've seen are predicated on taking a level in Fighter at 1st level. I'm saying that's not such a great idea.

[wilhelmdubdub]

I agree 100% with Gastronomie. (Awesome avatar, BTW!) The BladeLock doesn't need a level in Fighter because it has enough going for it already. They're simply not meant to slug it out on the front lines like a fighter or a paladin -- they're magical skirmishers with a huge repertoire of arcane dirty tricks to use in combat. They've got tons of ways to disadvantage their enemies (Darkness, Bestow Curse), punish anyone who hits them (Armor of Agathys, Hellish Rebuke), or simply mislead them outright (Invisibility, Mirror Image). Sometimes they're not even where you expect them to be. (Misty Step, Blink) And they're extremely accurate, with a good list of spells for granting advantage. (Faerie Fire, Darkness+Devil's Sight, Improved Invisibility.)

Taking a Fighter level just slows down their casting progression for all of the above.

The BladeLock starts off with Light Armor, then gets Mage Armor at will at 2nd level. If you can get +1 Studded Leather, retrain the Armor of Shadows Invocation for something else; you don't need it any more. If you're focusing on Finesse weapons, your 13+DEX AC should be at 18 by level 12. That's just as good as Plate Armor. At level 12, you've got Life Drinker and you're done taking BladeLock levels. You should also have at least an 18 CHA. Now take 4 levels of Rogue for the Swashbuckler archetype. Bump your CHA to 20. You've got everything you need: a Pact Blade Rapier with 1d8+1d6+10 damage, and +2d6 SA damage you'll get every round, and +10 INITIATIVE. You've got four levels left for whatever; knock yourself out. Sorcerer, perhaps?

Why not take fighter levels and start with heavy armor plus defense (in full plate that's 19AC) and be one turn ahead of the other warlock getting up his mage armor in the first round. Then action surge hex plus your first attack, be it eldritch blast of 2 swings of your pact weapon. Profeciency in concentration is nice too.

[Addaran]

Why not take fighter levels and start with heavy armor plus defense (in full plate that's 19AC) and be one turn ahead of the other warlock getting up his mage armor in the first round. Then action surge hex plus your first attack, be it eldritch blast of 2 swings of your pact weapon. Profeciency in concentration is nice too.

There's really no reason to not already have mage armor up. It lasts 8 hours and it's at-will.

[Klorox]

There's really no reason to not already have mage armor up. It lasts 8 hours and it's at-will.

You're absolutely right, but when it comes to point buy, not having to worry about DEX because of heavy armor really helps get STR, CON and CHA start at a higher point.

If you're wading into melee and relying on mage armor, you'd better have a decent DEX.

[Citan]

You're absolutely right, but when it comes to point buy, not having to worry about DEX because of heavy armor really helps get STR, CON and CHA start at a higher point.

If you're wading into melee and relying on mage armor, you'd better have a decent DEX.
Indeed, for a STR-based warlock. But maybe OP wants to build a DEX-based Warlock? :)

[Klorox]

Indeed, for a STR-based warlock. But maybe OP wants to build a DEX-based Warlock? :)

The heavy armor master feat, plus he said he wanted optimization. If you're going DEX based bladelock, you'll do more damage with your Eldritch blast than with your pact weapon.

[Citan]

The heavy armor master feat, plus he said he wanted optimization. If you're going DEX based bladelock, you'll do more damage with your Eldritch blast than with your pact weapon.
Please excuse me if I sound nitpicky, but it's not exactly what OP asked for.

It's the only class I've not played in 5th and I was looking at the Pact of the Blade, but not sure which Patron or how to build him using the standard array or point buy. ANY tips would be appreciative. I'm figuring a Half Elf for the +2 to Charisma, but am open to any suggestions at all on builds or just general advice.
Pact of the Blade is just the most fun looking one to me. I don't know the party's current composition except that I know for sure we will have a rogue and a ranger. But we have enough players to be able to have a solid composition all around.
So he didn't ask for optimisation damage, he asked for different opinions about different builds.

And in this regard, DEX build can be very interesting, especially considering the current known members of his party: two classes that have good mobility, excellent distance capabilities, but decent to good survability and nearly no tankiness.

Beyond Mage Armor, he could take Mirror Image or Invisibility to help resist hits.
With Ranger and Rogue, they could form a scout/surprise attack party that is reasonably homogeneous in versatility (melee/distance), speed, initiative and stealth.

He could also prefer utility/control to pure damage by aiming for Sentinel feat, or favoring Initiative with Alert etc...
Sure, this works equally well with STR weapons.
But imo STR weapons by themselves are not really interesting unless specific build (shove/grapple), what makes people take them is because of GWM and/or Polearm. And obviously Warcaster because two-handed (you still want to cast spells don't you? Otherwise you would have chosen a Fighter, EK or no).
Meaning you would want to max STR, take at least two feats, take two "tax" Invocations, and still keep CHA to a decent enough level for extra damage and spells/invocations (because using your slots only on Mage Armor / Hex / Armor of Agathys / Invisibility would be a bit sad, although perfectly doable).
Significantly more investment than a DEX build (because of feats mainly). ;)

Beyond that, if OP wants to multiclass, there are many fun combos to do with STR or DEX based builds...

So the best would be for him first to determine the kind of fun he wants to have, then design the general concept (single/multiclass? focus on damage? survivability? stealth? spells?), then come back for more precise advice. No? :)

[Klorox]

You're right Citan. I thought I saw heavy armor mastery in his character.

I tend to look at this site with multiple windows open. I must've mixed it up with somebody else.

[bid]

And obviously Warcaster because two-handed (you still want to cast spells don't you?
Warcaster does nothing for 2-handers. Did you mean TWF?

[Citan]

Warcaster does nothing for 2-handers. Did you mean TWF?
Eeeeeh, would I be so far out from comprehending spellcasting since I started playing? :)

Casting Spells.
Somatic. If a spell requires a somatic component, the caster must have free use of at least one hand to perform these gestures.

Warcaster
"You can perform the somatic components of spells even when you have weapons or a shield in one or both hands."

Weapons
Two-handed: This weapon requires two hands to use.

Actions
You can interact with one object for free, during either your move or your action. For example, you could {...} draw your weapon as part of the same action you use to attack.

So, sure, you can allow a player to drop one hand from the weapon in order to cast a spell during his turn. But it means then that, until the start of its next turn, he can't use his weapon (meaning, among others, no opportunity attack).
It also means that he has to choose every turn to either cast a spell or use his weapon, so depending on the current state, he may not be able to use Hellish Rebuke or other reaction spells.
Yes, it's playable, but not very comfortable by far.

Warcaster resolves all of this, makes Resilient: Con much less necessary, and also gives better damage on reaction because you can use Booming Blade meaning rider in addition to full attack damage (or other spells such as a Repelling Blast ;)).

So, for any Bladelock that wants to be serious in terms of optimisation, Warcaster seems pretty much a no-brainer feat imo.

[Corran]

Eeeeeh, would I be so far out from comprehending spellcasting since I started playing? :)

Casting Spells.
Somatic. If a spell requires a somatic component, the caster must have free use of at least one hand to perform these gestures.

Warcaster
"You can perform the somatic components of spells even when you have weapons or a shield in one or both hands."

Weapons
Two-handed: This weapon requires two hands to use.

Actions
You can interact with one object for free, during either your move or your action. For example, you could {...} draw your weapon as part of the same action you use to attack.

So, sure, you can allow a player to drop one hand from the weapon in order to cast a spell during his turn. But it means then that, until the start of its next turn, he can't use his weapon (meaning, among others, no opportunity attack).
..........

That entirely falls under the assumption that both taking your hand off the two hander and placing it back on it, require an object interaction. Which is a very fair assumption, but I could cerainly see a point made against it. Personaly I believe that it doesn't require an object interaction, as fighting with a two hander does not mean that your hands are glued to the hilt during every second of the fight. I am no expert nor do I have any knowledge on how fighting with mediava weapons works, but based on film scenes and video games and on how I generally think of this, this is how I would rule it (ie that it does not require an object interaction). So I think it's ambiguous enough (since there is no clear rule or example that states that this sort of action requires an object interaction) that it falls under the DM's judgement.

[Citan]

That entirely falls under the assumption that both taking your hand off the two hander and placing it back on it, require an object interaction. Which is a very fair assumption, but I could cerainly see a point made against it. Personally I believe that it doesn't require an object interaction, as fighting with a two hander does not mean that your hands are glued to the hilt during every second of the fight. I am no expert nor do I have any knowledge on how fighting with mediava weapons works, but based on film scenes and video games and on how I generally think of this, this is how I would rule it (ie that it does not require an object interaction). So I think it's ambiguous enough (since there is no clear rule or example that states that this sort of action requires an object interaction) that it falls under the DM's judgement.
Well then, considering your fair assessment, it's probable that this particular point has already been discussed at length at least once on this forum.

I'll try to find such as discussion later and link it here for people interested (or start a new thread if any wants to poll forum / express thoughts on this), unfortunately I can't do it right now going to travel. See you later. ;)

(My personal opinion is that, at least for heavy two-handed weapons, it would be a bit far-stretched to consider that one could move and act as easily with only one-hand, but after all, we don't have to be glued to "reality". ;) And what I thought was clear as RAW & RAI seems finally not, so I wonder what other opinions on this are).

[Klorox]

Well then, considering your fair assessment, it's probable that this particular point has already been discussed at length at least once on this forum.

I'll try to find such as discussion later and link it here for people interested (or start a new thread if any wants to poll forum / express thoughts on this), unfortunately I can't do it right now going to travel. See you later. ;)

(My personal opinion is that, at least for heavy two-handed weapons, it would be a bit far-stretched to consider that one could move and act as easily with only one-hand, but after all, we don't have to be glued to "reality". ;) And what I thought was clear as RAW & RAI seems finally not, so I wonder what other opinions on this are).

It's been determined, somewhere along the way, that you can take a hand off a two handed weapon to cast a spell. I'm fine with it if you want to cast a spell instead of attacking, but I think it's BS if you plan to use a reaction.

Nobody is taking a hand off a great sword to cast shield, as you'd be using both hands on the sword to parry incoming attacks. And nobody is taking a hand off a polearm, and then magically putting the hand back on if an attack of opportunity arises. It's silly.

Now, if you want to use a weapon with the versatile property two handed for your attack, and one handed in case you need to cast a reaction spell, then that's fine. It's a common thing for level 3 eldritch knights (when they can cast a spell, but haven't had the chance to take warcaster yet).

JMO

[Citan]

It's been determined, somewhere along the way, that you can take a hand off a two handed weapon to cast a spell. I'm fine with it if you want to cast a spell instead of attacking, but I think it's BS if you plan to use a reaction.

Nobody is taking a hand off a great sword to cast shield, as you'd be using both hands on the sword to parry incoming attacks. And nobody is taking a hand off a polearm, and then magically putting the hand back on if an attack of opportunity arises. It's silly.

Now, if you want to use a weapon with the versatile property two handed for your attack, and one handed in case you need to cast a reaction spell, then that's fine. It's a common thing for level 3 eldritch knights (when they can cast a spell, but haven't had the chance to take warcaster yet).

JMO
Found few minutes to answer! \o/
Well, I agree with you, but it seems the general opinion is more lax:
I found this topic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?494694-Spells-and-two-hands&highlight=two-handed+spell) specifically on this question, quickly reviewed other threads matching search, and it seems commonly admitted that you can freely drop a hand to cast a spell then put it back on grip (like, you can hold firmly a heavy weapon in one hand to keep guard while making complex movements with the other hand for several seconds, then immediately putting back the hand).
So, I guess ruling differently would be considered too ruly to be fun for most people. I guess I'll have to ask my players if they are fine with the more restrictive way, or go with general opinion and wave this. :)

[bid]

Weapons
Two-handed: This weapon requires two hands to use.
"Two-Handed (p. 147). This property is relevant only when you attack with the weapon, not when you simply hold it."

I am surprised you haven't read the errata.

[Citan]

"Two-Handed (p. 147). This property is relevant only when you attack with the weapon, not when you simply hold it."

I am surprised you haven't read the errata.
Aaaaah ok. Thanks for that. Didn't think to download the erratas (if it's possible at least), and I usually compulse everything offline to limit internet dependency (which also means I don't check regularly for new WoTC publications). So, apart from a few errata use-cases which I remember because I was directly interested, I'm probably not up to date with every adjustement. My bad. ^^

[Nasagi]

OP here. Thanks for all the useful advice! I have a bit more info on party composition now after my game last night. We have a Rogue, Ranger, Paladin, 2 clerics(unsure of domain), one open and the DM we're giving a chance to play said he might play a warlock as well. Not sure of pact/boon yet.

Edit: Also, I was thinking perhaps strength using something like a greatsword pact blade. I've also considered making a Gnomish or Halfling Barbarian or Fighter since we seem to be severely lacking on tank style characters. May do the fighter or barbarian anyways just not a Gnome or halfing

[Klorox]

OP here. Thanks for all the useful advice! I have a bit more info on party composition now after my game last night. We have a Rogue, Ranger, Paladin, 2 clerics(unsure of domain), one open and the DM we're giving a chance to play said he might play a warlock as well. Not sure of pact/boon yet.

Edit: Also, I was thinking perhaps strength using something like a greatsword pact blade. I've also considered making a Gnomish or Halfling Barbarian or Fighter since we seem to be severely lacking on tank style characters. May do the fighter or barbarian anyways just not a Gnome or halfing

Halfling barbarian FTW!

[eldamir]

Do an 'IronMan'
half elf 18Wlk / 2Pal bladelock
Plate Armor and a shield and longsword
Take Eldrich Spear and Ascendant Step, then shoot beams of energy 300ft from your hand while levitating
when/if they do get to close to melee range, you have your 20AC and are sitting 20 feet up in the air.
You could also do shield and no weapon for the beams-from-your-palm effect..

[Nasagi]

Everyone, thank you so much for all the suggestions for the warlock builds. I really appreciate it. Since the DM we're letting take a break wanted to play a warlock as well, I let him have it and the group was severely lacking on a "tank" style character (paladin is going greatsword, perhaps oath of ancients)
I'm going with a Wood Elf barbarian, flavored after the Kagonesti of the Dragonlance ones. I do have a longsword/shield currently, but am hoping to be able to eventually swap to just going 2 handed fighting style.
Not optimal by far, but when I played Dragonlance for the first time, an NPC kagonesti really made an impact on me so I wanted to flavor after him, it was also the game where I met one of my best friends so the rage elf had some impact. <3 all of you for your help, If i ever do get a chance to play a warlock (likely to happen in a game i'm playing sunday. Currently a half elf sorcerer in game, but it's brutal) I will take all of your advice in for the build.

[Mandragola]

"Two-Handed (p. 147). This property is relevant only when you attack with the weapon, not when you simply hold it."

Sorry for labouring the point, but this is what makes a strength-based bladelock with a two-hander significantly superior to any bladelock build with a 1h and shield or dual-wielding. The guy with the two-hander can happily cast counterspell any time he needs to.

For the OP, good luck and enjoy playing your wood elf barbarian. Sounds like it could be a very fun character, eventually! I guess if you started with 15s in str and con you could push both to 16 at lvl 4. You'll certainly be quick.

[Nasagi]

Sorry for labouring the point, but this is what makes a strength-based bladelock with a two-hander significantly superior to any bladelock build with a 1h and shield or dual-wielding. The guy with the two-hander can happily cast counterspell any time he needs to.

For the OP, good luck and enjoy playing your wood elf barbarian. Sounds like it could be a very fun character, eventually! I guess if you started with 15s in str and con you could push both to 16 at lvl 4. You'll certainly be quick.

Exactly what I did 15 Str 14 dex 15 con 8 int 14 wisdom and 8 charisma. Not the brightest or most social of characters, but i think it should work out. Thanks for the luck wishes man, it just seemed like it'd be fun to run with. Plus it's one of like 2 classes i've never played, other being Warlock is it so happens

[MeeposFire]

You're absolutely right, but when it comes to point buy, not having to worry about DEX because of heavy armor really helps get STR, CON and CHA start at a higher point.

If you're wading into melee and relying on mage armor, you'd better have a decent DEX.

I personally don't think that mage armor is really worth it. Unless you never find +1 studded leather or better (EVER) then light armor is just as good or better. If you never find it you are only 1 AC from mage armor and can choose something else.

I guess if you have nothing better to take...