Boneleaves are weird (especially with wild shape)

[eggynack]

So, the boneleaf. Heroes of horror, page 143. Relatively normal, as aberrations go, except for one ability, pervasive sentience. I'm gonna quote most of this, cause it's the core of this analysis.

Pervasive Sentience (Ex): A boneleaf functions as an independent creature, but it is only a portion of a much larger whole. While boneleaves are encountered singly, they are not actually alone. If boneleaves are present in a given area, there are always 1d6+6 of them in the region. They are considered solitary creatures because each boneleaf in the group remains anywhere from 100 yards to a mile away from its nearest fellow. All the boneleaves in a group are in fact portions of the same creature, connected by miles of underground nerves.

It's not like that's a crazy thing for a creature to have, on its own. A bunch of creatures have a hive mind thing going, and it's not necessarily out of this world that all the creatures happen to be kinda connected to each other. But then you wild shape into one (with enhance wild shape up, of course), and things go screwy. What does it even mean that you, a bone leaf spontaneously generated into this world, have this ability? Does becoming this creature spontaneously generate an underground nerve network, one that can expand out for miles, as well as around 9.5 boneleaves? Because this isn't a usually kind of ability. There are always 1d6+6 boneleaves. You have that ability, the ability to have those boneleaves. The ability to be those boneleaves, maybe.

So, main question, am I crazy, or is the world crazy? This seems to work, and there's not much ambiguity to its working, but it's hard to determine what any of this means. I'll probably add this thing to the handbook at some point, but I thought starting this thread could serve a couple of purposes. First and foremost being the determination of what this actually does. Consider some basic questions. Are you the other leaves, with control over their operation? I'm doubtful, but it is all one creature. If you are those leaves, can you cast spells from them? Ooh, here's a good one. If we assume that you aren't the other leaves, then those are just normal boneleaves, right? So does that mean that they get all their abilities, including supernatural ones, including illusory lure? If you have this ability active, can you travel really far, in spite of the nerve cluster, or is the nerve cluster mobile, or what? What if you teleport? Do the other leaves come along? What happens when you leave this form? Do the other leaves pop out of existence? Full disclosure here, I only really had the first two questions when I started this paragraph. The rest just came up naturally, because this creature is that confounding. So, secondary question to that, what other crazy questions are there?

The second and, I suppose, last question of this form is, what can be done with it? I see this acting as a sort of weird surveillance system, combined with a way of adding some muscle to a wide area. The form isn't awful for combat, and they have some intrinsic leafy stealth, so you could do worse in terms of guardians. I listed all those questions above, and those questions have serious ramifications on what's possible through the boneleaf. And it's just so weird that you're becoming a large creature, and also simultaneously becoming a creature that's kinda larger than nearly every other creature in the game. This thing deserves wacky fun time discussion, I feel.

[Troacctid]

Well, you've got to consider a related question, which is: what happens when an individual boneleaf (not a wildshaped druid) moves outside the region? They have a 10-foot move speed, so if they want, they can just pack up and leave their buddies. If they get far enough away, do you believe that they will spontaneously spawn another 1d6+6 boneleaves?

[eggynack]

Well, you've got to consider a related question, which is: what happens when an individual boneleaf (not a wildshaped druid) moves outside the region? They have a 10-foot move speed, so if they want, they can just pack up and leave their buddies. If they get far enough away, do you believe that they will spontaneously spawn another 1d6+6 boneleaves?
Assuming that's possible (which I find doubtful, to some extent), I don't think they'd generate more. The boneleaf gets that way cause it's all one giant creature, not because the boneleaf creates other boneleaves. By the same merit, I don't think the druid would exactly be generating new boneleaves either, so much as just kinda becoming this giant hive mind. But, at the same time, I dunno. Maybe they would generate more. The ability says always, and that means what it means, possibly up to and including the creation of new ones. If we're being really realistic though, if a boneleaf detatched itself from its weird organs, it'd probably just die. From there, I guess a related question is whether the hive mind would generate a new boneleaf, at least if they dropped below the minimum. Here's another interesting question. If you wild shape into a boneleaf in an area that already has boneleaves, would you not get boneleaves? The ability specifies boneleaves per region, after all. Such a weird creature.

[Albions_Angel]

For the moving, I wouldnt think it would spontaneously generate new ones, but I would expect new ones to grow as the boneleaves moved outwards. The 1d6+6 boneleaves in an area arnt magically there, they are part of a grown organism. A boneleaf moving would probably sever its connection for a while, before it rooted somewhere else, either establishing the old connection and expanding the group, or starting a new root system.

As for the druid. No, the druid wont spawn 1d6+6 boneleaves. Now, the druid COULD root himself and start the process of growing a nerve system. But his wildshape would time out before he could complete the process.

Similarly, if he finds a way to summon a boneleaf, it will rip the 'leaf out of the ground, severing its connection. The 'leaf would do what it had to, and root itself. If there is some way for it to stick around for a couple of weeks, maybe it spawns a real boneleaf. But most summoning spells would time out before it got so much as a taproot into the water table.

[Troacctid]

So if there are seven boneleaves and I simply kill six of them in combat, one at a time, what happens? The remaining one hasn't lost its Pervasive Sentience ability, after all, so there must still always be 1d6+6 of them in the region.

Intuition says that in that scenario, there would simply be one boneleaf left, despite what Pervasive Sentience might say. If that's the case, then there's a precedent for having just one boneleaf in a region at a time, which hopefully clears up the wild shape questions too.

[eggynack]

As for the druid. No, the druid wont spawn 1d6+6 boneleaves. Now, the druid COULD root himself and start the process of growing a nerve system. But his wildshape would time out before he could complete the process.
I don't think the druid would spawn the boneleaves. I think they'd just kinda... be there. The nerve system isn't part of a boneleaf. In fact, it's more like the exact opposite, that the boneleaf is part of the nerve system. You become this creature, and part of being that creature is that you're attached to this massive organic body, and part of that massive organic body is that there're these other boneleaves elsewhere.

So if there are seven boneleaves and I simply kill six of them in combat, one at a time, what happens? The remaining one hasn't lost its Pervasive Sentience ability, after all, so there must still always be 1d6+6 of them in the region.

Intuition says that in that scenario, there would simply be one boneleaf left, despite what Pervasive Sentience might say. If that's the case, then there's a precedent for having just one boneleaf in a region at a time, which hopefully clears up the wild shape questions too.
I agree that there'd only be one boneleaf, but I don't thing that necessarily resolves the underlying problem. The murderer is an outside actor on the ability, where the ability itself is mostly defining the natural state for the creature. That is a weird element to the ability though, that a new character on the scene could presumably face below the normal number of boneleaves, even going through the whole region. It's possible that the nerve system would generate the needed bone leaves though. It's not apparent where this thing is coming from, or how its biology operates. For the sake of comparison, consider the hydra. A five-headed hydra has five heads, obviously, and, in fact, the rules define it as having at least multiple heads, with no exceptions. But, of course, you can remove a hydra's heads, to the point where the hydra will be single headed, and you can keep the hydra like that. I see boneleaves as operating similarly. There's a well defined creature that, by the rules, has this ability to have a number of additional parts, but those parts can be removed. The creature's baseline state must include those parts, however.

What's really weird, to my mind, is that you'd essentially be becoming this incredibly massive super-creature with a bunch of separate sentiences. Is that even within the bounds of becoming a large creature? Presumably so, given that that's plainly the size listed, and how that's how size is defined. Actually, given that the nerve system seems to be a vital part of the creature's biology, what would happen if you became a boneleaf without enhance up? Would you just die? That's an interesting thing.

[Troacctid]

I'm pretty sure you can only wild shape into a single creature. The ability definitely says that you turn into an animal, singular, and the Aberration Wild Shape feat says you can turn into an aberration, also singular. If wild shaping into a boneleaf would result in you becoming multiple creatures, then that should mean you simply can't wild shape into a boneleaf at all.

"But the multiple boneleaves all count as one creature!" Okay, but if that's true, that means the multiple boneleaves are all sharing one statblock and one set of actions, as is normal for a single creature—that's the general rule, and nothing in the ability says otherwise. So you shouldn't gain any special benefits from being in 1d6+6 parts.

[eggynack]

I'm pretty sure you can only wild shape into a single creature. The ability definitely says that you turn into an animal, singular, and the Aberration Wild Shape feat says you can turn into an aberration, also singular. If wild shaping into a boneleaf would result in you becoming multiple creatures, then that should mean you simply can't wild shape into a boneleaf at all.
I don't think that adds up. You're not becoming multiple creatures so much as you are becoming this one boneleaf that happens to bring along a set of other boneleaves, as well as this nerve system. I think this form makes sense under the multiple creatures interpretation, at least partially because this is in the form of an ability that the creature you're becoming possesses. You're becoming this one creature over here, and the rest comes along as baggage.


"But the multiple boneleaves all count as one creature!" Okay, but if that's true, that means the multiple boneleaves are all sharing one statblock and one set of actions, as is normal for a single creature—that's the general rule, and nothing in the ability says otherwise. So you shouldn't gain any special benefits from being in 1d6+6 parts.
Boneleaves are weird. The way the ability says otherwise, to the extent it does so, is by defining all the other connected boneleaves as possessing their own sentience, and by explicitly defining what a boneleaf is. The ability says they act independently, so they do. The ability says that a boneleaf has these stats, so each one does. That, in itself, acts as the specific overriding the general case, if such a general case actually exists. To that end, I think the form also makes sense under the single creature interpretation.

[daremetoidareyo]

Perhaps the easiest way to read this is that no singular boneleaf is a creature. A boneleaf is, at a minimum, an 8 creature affair. You +1d6+6. You need gargantuan aberration wildshape to turn into the necessary number of boneleafs (8-14) to manifest. 8-14 parts of your brain fragment, spill out of your ears and drive themselves into the earth while your primary form becomes the central boneleaf. Each boneleaf corpus body has a separate part of your druids personality.

[eggynack]

Perhaps the easiest way to read this is that no singular boneleaf is a creature. A boneleaf is, at a minimum, an 8 creature affair. You +1d6+6. You need gargantuan aberration wildshape to turn into the necessary number of boneleafs (8-14) to manifest. 8-14 parts of your brain fragment, spill out of your ears and drive themselves into the earth while your primary form becomes the central boneleaf. Each boneleaf corpus body has a separate part of your druids personality.
It's an easy way to read it, but it doesn't seem an accurate way. The things defined in stat blocks are creatures. It's just how creatures are defined. And, notably, the thing that is a bunch of boneleaves is referred to as boneleaves, rather than boneleaf, within the text. A boneleaf therefore isn't all of the creatures, but instead a single one of them. Also don't think that's the easy/unworkable reading I'd use. My reading of it, in the format you've constructed, has the "boneleaf" as the 8-14 boneleaves plus the neural network, which would put it at some kinda crazy colossal+ thing.

[Bronk]

It's possible that the limitations of wild shape, which is based on the alternate form ability, leaves a wild shaped druid (even enhanced with the proper feats and spells) not enough of an actual boneleaf to take advantage of the pervasive sentience ability.

It might have to be doubled up with PAO to work, although then you'd have all the same unanswered questions.

[eggynack]

It's possible that the limitations of wild shape, which is based on the alternate form ability, leaves a wild shaped druid (even enhanced with the proper feats and spells) not enough of an actual boneleaf to take advantage of the pervasive sentience ability.
How's that work? It seems like all of the elements of pervasive sentience are couched within pervasive sentience, without need of outside implicit abilities. After all, contained within pervasive sentience are both the extra creatures and the nerve network. There's not much in the creature description that's missing from the ability.

[Bronk]

How's that work? It seems like all of the elements of pervasive sentience are couched within pervasive sentience, without need of outside implicit abilities. After all, contained within pervasive sentience are both the extra creatures and the nerve network. There's not much in the creature description that's missing from the ability.

Well, I might be seeing a dysfunction when there isn't one, considering most special abilities are written with references to the base creature, or possibly bringing up a dysfunction that's usually glossed over.

On the one hand, wild shape already allows you to use extraordinary attacks in that way, despite only taking the aspects of the form listed under the druid ability and the alternate form ability.

On other hand, if you've gained the ability of a boneleaf (or anything else, really) beyond what wild shape already states it grants, and the ability says that a boneleaf can do this or that, but you're not actually a boneleaf, just a druid shaped like one, for me it calls into question if the ability is usable.

On the gripping hand, the same arguments about true forms go back and forth for whether or not PAO can be cast twice for an extended duration, and those are aggravating.

[eggynack]

I've gotta think that, as long as you're wild shaped into the creature, and as long as the text that references being a bone leaf is being captured by your particular brand of form altering, the parts where the text refers to the creature by its name are going to refer to you. The boneleaf gets the thing, and you are the boneleaf in question. Whether you are truly a boneleaf seems immaterial as long as you're a boneleaf to this exact extent, and it seems to me that you are indeed a boneleaf to that exact extent by virtue of getting that ability. Getting the abilities of creatures you become has to mean something, y'know? And it's not like the text makes some kinda weird distinction between boneleaves and "true" boneleaves.

[Bronk]

I've gotta think that, as long as you're wild shaped into the creature, and as long as the text that references being a bone leaf is being captured by your particular brand of form altering, the parts where the text refers to the creature by its name are going to refer to you. The boneleaf gets the thing, and you are the boneleaf in question. Whether you are truly a boneleaf seems immaterial as long as you're a boneleaf to this exact extent, and it seems to me that you are indeed a boneleaf to that exact extent by virtue of getting that ability. Getting the abilities of creatures you become has to mean something, y'know? And it's not like the text makes some kinda weird distinction between boneleaves and "true" boneleaves.

That makes sense to me... Either the wild shape ability, spell or feat would take care of it, or what's the point?

So given that, I think this ability would probably be dangerous to the druid! If you were to suddenly become part of a hive mind with any number of intelligent, chaotic evil creatures, they would A: know where you are and probably start shuffling their way over to eat you and your buddies, and B: possibly know everything you know... including secrets and valuable information they could pass along to other evil beings (they can understand common and sylvan and can communicate using illusions).

[eggynack]

So given that, I think this ability would probably be dangerous to the druid! If you were to suddenly become part of a hive mind with any number of intelligent, chaotic evil creatures, they would A: know where you are and probably start shuffling their way over to eat you and your buddies, and B: possibly know everything you know... including secrets and valuable information they could pass along to other evil beings (they can understand common and sylvan and can communicate using illusions).
That's an interesting read on it. I would generally think that boneleaves are friendly with... themselves... but that's not apparently written in stone. It'd be weird if the creatures that are a part of you arbitrarily considered the druid component a separate entity, though, cause you're not one. They were born into this world of a kind with you, and they might leave this world as soon as their brother boneleaf does, though they may not. Also, if we're going by the strict text, only present experience seems to be shared, so the boneleaves may not know your inner mind, and they therefore may not even know that you're weird. Critically, however, even if the boneleaves won't attack you, mentally or otherwise, under any circumstances, the lack of control means that they could plausibly attack party members or other folks you wouldn't want them to attack. Could make the form a liability, if not necessarily to the extent you implied. The information gain is always useful though, and the text does set 100 yards as a minimum distance between boneleaves so they won't have much opportunity to attack you. It seems risky, creating a pile of evil creatures that aren't really bound to you in any way, but also plausibly useful, especially if you happen to be evil yourself.

[Bronk]

That's an interesting read on it. I would generally think that boneleaves are friendly with... themselves... but that's not apparently written in stone. It'd be weird if the creatures that are a part of you arbitrarily considered the druid component a separate entity, though, cause you're not one. They were born into this world of a kind with you, and they might leave this world as soon as their brother boneleaf does, though they may not. Also, if we're going by the strict text, only present experience seems to be shared, so the boneleaves may not know your inner mind, and they therefore may not even know that you're weird. Critically, however, even if the boneleaves won't attack you, mentally or otherwise, under any circumstances, the lack of control means that they could plausibly attack party members or other folks you wouldn't want them to attack. Could make the form a liability, if not necessarily to the extent you implied. The information gain is always useful though, and the text does set 100 yards as a minimum distance between boneleaves so they won't have much opportunity to attack you. It seems risky, creating a pile of evil creatures that aren't really bound to you in any way, but also plausibly useful, especially if you happen to be evil yourself.

If they're created, they might be fairly confused for the length of time they exist, especially if they disappear at the end of the duration of the wild shape and spell. That could be hours though, so more than enough time to attempt to hunt people with their illusion power, which would be a sad consequence to a goodly druid.

If they're preexisting boneleaves that you happen to be linked up with because one is within a mile of you, then they might be tapped into an existing local evil power structure and be able to alert someone of the sudden newbie who's hanging out with the good guys...

I can see what you mean about the line 'Anything one boneleaf experiences is known to all of them," not counting as a true hive mind, so I suppose the information that could be passed on would at least be short term only, as long as the druid warned everyone not to have any planning sessions for the duration...

[eggynack]

If they're created, they might be fairly confused for the length of time they exist, especially if they disappear at the end of the duration of the wild shape and spell. That could be hours though, so more than enough time to attempt to hunt people with their illusion power, which would be a sad consequence to a goodly druid.

If they're preexisting boneleaves that you happen to be linked up with because one is within a mile of you, then they might be tapped into an existing local evil power structure and be able to alert someone of the sudden newbie who's hanging out with the good guys...
Boneleaves don't seem to hunt all that much. Their main technique is just laying around and acting like leaves until something tasty can be lured nearby. Even if they knew about local good guys, boneleaves would probably just angle in their general direction rather than attack outright. Anyways, I think the main utility of this is as a sort of strong deterrent to folks encroaching on an area. You and your party have a defensive position set up, and because you don't have anything else to do with your form you create a low density broad range scouting system, giving you a better idea of what's going on around the area, and whether you are about to have an enemy visitor. There's definite risk involved, because the boneleaves seem like they'll just munch on anyone, paladin or lich or anyone in between, but you don't always want that much discretion when you're just trying to keep people out anyway. The effect is really at its best if you already have a domain publicly established, such that people don't cross the territory without meaning to.

[ShurikVch]

Choke Creeper in Dungeon #82 have similar weirdness: it's not a single monster, but a whole encounter, which consist of Main Vine (20 HD, CR -) and eight Branching Vines (each is 2 HD, CR 1)
So, what's will happen if you wild shape into Branching Vine?
Will the Main Vine appear too?

[eggynack]

Choke Creeper in Dungeon #82 have similar weirdness: it's not a single monster, but a whole encounter, which consist of Main Vine (20 HD, CR -) and eight Branching Vines (each is 2 HD, CR 1)
So, what's will happen if you wild shape into Branching Vine?
Will the Main Vine appear too?
Dunno. Effects depend on the details, and I ain't got access to them. Boneleaves are interesting, cause their extra monsters come in the form of an ability that you can access. Without that, your capacity to access a multitude of creatures is far more murky and unlikely. If the ability is there though, and the druid can access it, and said ability is relatively unambiguous in its working, then maybe you'd get a pile of friendly vines.