Help with research: Ships from around 1700

[Xiander]

Hello guys. :smallsmile:

I am currently gathering notes and ideas for a writing project. I wil spare you the elevator pitch and get straight to business.
I plan to take a good deal of inspiration from the time period around year 1700, and my story will involve a lot of sailing. To that end I will ned at least some knowledge of ships from that era.
Currently all of my knowledge on the topic come from watching movies and cartoons, which are fine for inspiration, but I feel I ned a few more facts on the table. Do any of you fine folks have some knowledge on the topic, or know where I might go to find some on my own?

Any help is welcome, and I will gladly answer any questions you might have about my project.
Thanks in advance. :smallbiggrin:

[Hoosigander]

I suppose the first question is: Do you have a particular geographical area in mind? There may well be some differences between the Caribbean, the Baltic, or the Indian Ocean for example. There will also be differences between naval, civilian, and pirate vessels, particularly when it comes to organization and daily life on board the ship.
For the information below I will assume a general Northern Atlantic (European or Colonial American) context.

Types of Ships:

Sloop: A civilian sloop is primarily defined by being entirely rigged in the fore-and-aft manner (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fore-and-aft_rig), it usually had a single mast but could have more. A naval sloop-of-war need not be entirely fore-and-aft rigged and was defined by the number of guns it carried, 18 in the Royal Navy system.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/ea/Bermuda_sloop_-_privateer.jpg
http://wreckhunter.net/images/sloop-of-war-br.jpg

Schooner: A Schooner is defined by having at least two masts, fore and aft sails on the Foremast, and a Foremast that is shorter than the mainmast (and the Mizzenmast if there is one.) Schooners generally can sail in shallower water and are fast and agile, and are therefore suited to piracy, profiteering, and blockade running, but also legitimate purposes like whaling (although the golden age of the Yankee whaler is more a 19th century thing) or any trading enterprise that rewarded speed (like carrying mail).
http://gotheborg.com/links/bild/sultana.jpg

Frigate: A military ship mounting at least 28 guns in the Royal Navy System, but other navies used different system so the number might be different if you want to use a different country for inspiration, with square rigged (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square_rig) sails. A Frigate was lighter and more maneuverable than a Ship of the Line, but heavier armed than many civilian or pirate ships, It was used for patrolling, scouting, commerce raiding, and transporting official messages or important people. It was the largest and heaviest naval vessel likely to be encountered alone performing independent missions.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7c/Frc3a9gate-c3a0-la-voile1.jpg/1024px-Frc3a9gate-c3a0-la-voile1.jpg

Ship-of-the-Line: The biggest heaviest ships meant to stand in a line of battle and exchange broadsides with the enemy. Over time they got bigger and carried more guns, but in your period 50 or 60 gun ships would still be viable as Ships-of-the-Line.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ed/Het_Kanonschot_-_Canon_fired_%28Willem_van_de_Velde_II%2C_1707%29. jpg

[Xiander]

Wow! :smallbiggrin:

That was a much faster answer than I had expected. And with so many pretty pictures.


I suppose the first question is: Do you have a particular geographical area in mind? There may well be some differences between the Caribbean, the Baltic, or the Indian Ocean for example. There will also be differences between naval, civilian, and pirate vessels, particularly when it comes to organization and daily life on board the ship.
For the information below I will assume a general Northern Atlantic (European or Colonial American) context.

I should be clear, the story will be a fantasy story, but taking inspiration from the mentionned era.
As for geography, I will be drawing mostly fro western europe, Scandinavia and Brittain in the speciffic. I might also look at spain and other powers of the time, but for now, scandinavia and brittain has my attention.
I am taking some inspiration from Naval figures like Tordenskiold and Lord Nelson, if that is in anyway important.

The two main ships in the story will be naval ships, but there might be pirate ships and merchant ships around as well. The two ships will be compeeting about who can gather the most legendary treasures in a year. My basic idea is that one ship will be bigger and with a crew of naval marines, while the other will be a faster ship with a more Ragtag crew.

I also have great plans for a ship of legendary renown called the Chimera, which made it's name as a privateer ship and is basically unbeaten.

The information you have given me already is really apreciated, but I might find my self strugling with detail later, I would apreciate the oppotunity to ask stupid questions here :smallwink:

And thank you for the quick and helpful reply.

[Hoosigander]

The two main ships in the story will be naval ships, but there might be pirate ships and merchant ships around as well. The two ships will be competing about who can gather the most legendary treasures in a year. My basic idea is that one ship will be bigger and with a crew of naval marines, while the other will be a faster ship with a more Ragtag crew.


It sounds like a Frigate Vs. a Sloop-of-War or maybe a schooner. A Frigate would carry either 28 guns (6th Rate) or 32-44 (5th rate). The 6th Rate would have a crew of between 200 men and a complement of 29 Marines (presumably commanded by a Lieutenant) and the 5th Rate's crew would be between 200 and 300 men and have around 45 marines (again presumably commanded by a Lieutenant). The Sloop-of-War might have 16-18 guns and a crew of 90-125, the Royal Navy rating system for ships doesn't classify anything with less than 20 guns, so a schooner could have as little as 4 guns, but the most common armament seems to be 8-10 guns, 12 is another common number. The crew would be under 90 men and could be as low as twenty, but for a ship with 8-10 guns 40-50 men seems to be the most common crew size.

A Schooner would be commanded by a Lieutenant and a Sloop-of-War would be commanded by a commander, Frigates would be commanded by a captain.

[Xiander]

It sounds like a Frigate Vs. a Sloop-of-War or maybe a schooner. A Frigate would carry either 28 guns (6th Rate) or 32-44 (5th rate). The 6th Rate would have a crew of between 200 men and a complement of 29 Marines (presumably commanded by a Lieutenant) and the 5th Rate's crew would be between 200 and 300 men and have around 45 marines (again presumably commanded by a Lieutenant). The Sloop-of-War might have 16-18 guns and a crew of 90-125, the Royal Navy rating system for ships doesn't classify anything with less than 20 guns, so a schooner could have as little as 4 guns, but the most common armament seems to be 8-10 guns, 12 is another common number. The crew would be under 90 men and could be as low as twenty, but for a ship with 8-10 guns 40-50 men seems to be the most common crew size.

A Schooner would be commanded by a Lieutenant and a Sloop-of-War would be commanded by a commander, Frigates would be commanded by a captain.

Man, I lost touch with this threat for a while.

Those crew sizes are a fair deal bigger than I had expected. Somehow I expected no more than twenty odd people per ship. This changes a few things about how the ship crews work in my story. Out of curiousite, when you say a crew of X men with a complement of Y Marines, what is the difference between a man and a marine in this context? Are marines soldiers? I expect all the crewmember to be able sailors, so is it just that the marines have combat training?
I am just gussing here :smallbiggrin:


I like the idea of the bigger ship being a frigate, It fits well with the image I have of it.
Regarsing Sloops and Schooners: I take it that Schooners are typically smaller faster ships compared to Sloops?
How would either class match up against a frigate in a one on one fight? Would it be a completely hopeless battle for the sloop/frigate? How about matching afrigate against a ship of the line?
I realise there are a ton of factors here, so I am just asking the first questions that pop into my mind.

I will probably also be reading up on these things on the interwebs in the comming days. It is amazing how a couple of terms like Sloop and Frigate makes it easier to search for information :smallwink:

[Hoosigander]

Man, I lost touch with this threat for a while.

Those crew sizes are a fair deal bigger than I had expected. Somehow I expected no more than twenty odd people per ship. This changes a few things about how the ship crews work in my story. Out of curiousite, when you say a crew of X men with a complement of Y Marines, what is the difference between a man and a marine in this context? Are marines soldiers? I expect all the crewmember to be able sailors, so is it just that the marines have combat training?

I like the idea of the bigger ship being a frigate, It fits well with the image I have of it.
Regarsing Sloops and Schooners: I take it that Schooners are typically smaller faster ships compared to Sloops?
How would either class match up against a frigate in a one on one fight? Would it be a completely hopeless battle for the sloop/frigate? How about matching afrigate against a ship of the line?
I realise there are a ton of factors here, so I am just asking the first questions that pop into my mind.

Well the crew size comes from the fact that the minimum number of people you need to sail the ship is smaller than the number needed fully crew the guns. Although the schooner is an interesting case as the Royal Navy didn't strictly specify the schooner's stats like they did with the larger vessels. You probably could sail a schooner with 20 men, but if you had 10 guns you would need more than twice that to crew them all (and you would need more men than even that so the ship could sail and fire at the same time.)

Marines are armed and equipped like soldiers, but are generally organized under the Navy, not the army. Marines also follow army-style ranks, so a Captain of Marines is much lower ranking than a Naval Captain. In the 18th century they were assigned to particular ships and participated in boarding actions, sniping from the rigging during ship-to-ship battles, and amphibious assaults. Sailors also participated in these actions, but the marines formed a core dedicated to person-to-person combat. If, say, the captain of your frigate decides to land a raiding force he might send a few jolly boats of sailors armed with pistols, boarding pikes, and cutlasses, but he will always send the ship's marine complement as the core of that force. Interestingly, in the 18th century Royal Navy marines were berthed between the officers and the crewmen in order to protect the command from any threat of mutiny. Of course, today the role of marines has changed, here in the United States they are essentially a second Army.

As for sloops versus schooners it depends. The trouble is sloop has been used to mean many different things in many different contexts. In Royal Navy parlance of the period (which is what I was using in that quote) than a Sloop-of-War is indeed bigger than a schooner. But in some contexts a sloop can refer to something with only one mast and smaller than a schooner. So, if you see the term used somewhere else only context can tell you what they mean.

In general a Frigate outguns either a sloop-of-war or a schooner, but both are faster and can sail into shallower waters. Likewise with a frigate and a ship of the line, although a 4th rate ship of the line with around 50-60 guns is a better chance for a frigate than a first rater with over a hundred guns.

I found these two clips of a schooner (a Baltimore clipper to be precise) and a frigate online, I thought they might be helpful in visualizing a ship in motion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBKUVx6AVMM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fakw-bS3ujI