Can a caster still be good solo boss fight like in 3.5e?

[Ditto]

I'm working on converting Rise of the Runelords to 5e, specifically the finale of Fortress of the Stone Giants. The boss is a stone giant wizard, L14 transmuter. That's a CR15 challenge in 3.5e; calculating CR in 5e for PC levels is an inexact science, despite the AC/to-hit/DC charts in the DMG. Those rules are great for creatures with a few bells and whistles, but for spellcasters it's right off the chart. Other folks have done analyses suggesting CR = 2/3 CL, so a level 14 wizard comes in around CR10. That's allegedly a less-than-medium encounter for 4 CR11 PCs.

Easy enough, I've got a baseline there. Concentration spells severely cramp a caster's ability to buff themselves or lay out multiple complementary BFC effects, like a fog or cloud + telekinesis or reverse gravity. When I look at action economy, I'm not sure that a single wizard is anywhere near the threat he used to be on his own.

Has anyone had experience with high-level casters vs. mid-to-high level PCs? Would some summoned creatures as speed bumps help even things out and divide focus? Should I come up with a small menu of legendary actions to offer the boss-caster 1/turn as a pseudo-legendary creature? A simulacrum of the caster, maybe at a reduced level? Bump the caster level down by one or two and turn him into a paragon creature per The Angry GM's guidelines (http://theangrygm.com/elemental-boogaloo/)? Your feedback is appreciated!

[mcintma]

Has anyone had experience with high-level casters vs. mid-to-high level PCs? Would some summoned creatures as speed bumps help even things out and divide focus? Should I come up with a small menu of legendary actions to offer the boss-caster 1/turn as a pseudo-legendary creature? A simulacrum of the caster, maybe at a reduced level? Bump the caster level down by one or two and turn him into a paragon creature per? Your feedback is appreciated!

The fact that he's a stone giant helps but I'm afraid your instinct is correct, the party will grapple/shove him or do so much damage he'll have 1 action then die. That's assuming you have 4 players - more and it gets worse.

Mirror image can help, and I think you're on the right track with legendary actions (3/round) and summons. 5e spells are relatively weak so you needn't fear a TPK if he gets a few of them off.

IMO/IME

[Sabeta]

We were playing LMoP and the group Paladin managed to one-shot Glasstaff. He managed to roll above his AC even with Shield, and proceeded to Smite him for max damage. If you want a Mage that can work as a solo boss, I would suggest getting one of the beefier ones. Wizards are too frail.

[RickAllison]

Casters can pose solo bosses IF they are used as something other than stand-up fights. Wall spells to split up the party, spells like Animate Objects to outnumber the party, cat-and-mouse tactics, etc.

[Osrogue]

First off, he can't be grappled or shoved unless one of the party members decided to concentrate on enlarge/reduce, so you are safe there.

Secondly, you can give him access to spells he normally wouldn't have access to in whatever class he is emulating. A rock-armor version of armor of agathys cast beforehand without requiring concentration, if you really want some extra health and damage, though that would add to the giant's effective health and damage per round. Aside from that, mirror image does not require concentration, and neither does forcecage, nor symbol, nor glyph of warding, amd I think contingency is concentration free as well, and counterspell only has a range of 60 feet, so as long as you cast from far enough away.

Finally, legendary actions and saves are good. A cantrip costs 1 action. A spell costs 2 actions.

[mcintma]

We were playing LMoP and the group Paladin managed to one-shot Glasstaff. He managed to roll above his AC even with Shield, and proceeded to Smite him for max damage. If you want a Mage that can work as a solo boss, I would suggest getting one of the beefier ones. Wizards are too frail.

Extra embarrassing if a PC caster simply locks down the solo caster with Counterspell, so he doesn't even get an action off before the PC meleers pound him into fine paste ;)

Make sure the stone giant has Counterspell (to counter the Counterspell).

[mephnick]

Were they good solo boss fights in 3.5? I've never run/played a solo boss encounter that was worthwhile without special mechanics in any edition.

[pwykersotz]

Extra embarrassing if a PC caster simply locks down the solo caster with Counterspell, so he doesn't even get an action off before the PC meleers pound him into fine paste ;)

Make sure the stone giant has Counterspell (to counter the Counterspell).

Even better, make a few of his most memorable moves into unique abilities so that Counterspell isn't relevant.

Do that, give some Legendary Actions and Saves, maybe Lair Actions if he's supposed to be really scary, and a few minions such as Planar Bound elementals, and you'll have a mean fight.

[Ditto]

Definitely already checked the rules to make sure he could counter-Counterspell. If the party manages to get all the way to his lair without setting off any alarms on the long approached, he'll only have Dispel Magic prepared, but he ain't no dummy. Gotta have counterspell for casters.

Mirror Image will be very helpful, yes. Walls are handy, but limiting if they're the only concentration spell I can have going. Forcecage is effective (if expensive), and will be perfect for immobilizing my flying caster (who I expect to do the most damage and cross the room quickly and ignore Reverse Gravity if I use that). I worry that it will take her out of the fight with zero recourse, which isn't fun. We'll have to see if she ends up selecting Disintegrate for her 6th level spell so she'll have an out, and then if she hasn't spent it by the time she enters his lair.

He will have a transmuter's stone, so he can pop that for a full Heal which is pretty slick. And can Polymorph into a T-Rex for a bucket of emergency HPs. And he'll plan to DDoor out for backup if needed, hopefully with a counterspell still in his pocket.

[numerek]

fireshield is another defensive spell that doesn't require concentration. You could have numerous Mordenkainen's Faithful Hounds.

[Sigreid]

Make him a diviner, use dominate and force a 1 on the saving throw and let the party's heaviest hitter hit the party. It'll be fine.

[SharkForce]

i wouldn't do truly solo. unless we're talking very high level, when casters can begin to break things a bit more. even then, action economy is gonna be rough.

a caster with a decent selection of meatshields could work. and you could easily have a slightly less high level caster that is "solo" in the sense that they only have what their class abilities could bring to the table (ie minions obtained by mass suggestion, planar binding, planar ally, true polymorph, charm spells, etc). adding in a couple of relatively weak apprentices or acolytes could also work

[Ditto]

My party is entirely new to the game, so it's by no means any optimization tactics I need to worry about. I think advance notice that they're in the area, plus Mordenkainen's Hound, Mirror Image, Fire Shield, and some battlefield control makes me feel a lot better about the situation than I originally thought (even though my first impulse about the limitations of a solo caster seem valid). I'm thinking about making Animate Objects permanent in his lair/not a concentration spell, since he's a master transmuter. That will give some mook stuff to harry everyone as they try to cross the room toward him. Against a high-op party, I'd probably plant a proper simulacrum in there at CL10.

Pseudo-Legendary actions: 1/turn, a) transmute stone to mud, DC15 Dex, as Copper Dragon's lair action; b) Activate an Animated Object to attack (Animated Object spell refreshed 1/long rest); c) cast a cantrip.

[Sigreid]

Look in the monster manual for the animated suits of armor and weapons rather than a no concentration version of the spell.

[Ditto]

I'll be using animated armor, helmed horrors, and the elemental armor creatures from Angry DM elsewhere in the dungeon. I like the idea of a latent animated object spell being imbued on features around the room since this is a transmuter's lair. :)

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Were they good solo boss fights in 3.5? I've never run/played a solo boss encounter that was worthwhile without special mechanics in any edition.The issue with a caster nemesis in 3.5 is pinning him down. Combat is often decided before initiative is rolled. On the off chance you do meet on relatively equal terms, 3.5 casters can be especially nasty and often require at least a round to probe for the right defense to pierce while he's wailing on you with terrible effects. I did run a more straightforward beat-down fight with a boss caster once, but he was a gish with Robilar's Gambit and a lot of character resources devoted to special defenses. That said the fight worked swimmingly.

In 5e it's quite toned down, but a prepared caster should still have a platoon of elementals to work with at the least. From a player's perspective, minions that are derived organically from the enemy's apparent natural resources (Evil Organization, mercenaries, personal abilities that players can relate to) are better at maintaining suspension of disbelief.

[Giant2005]

Make sure he has all of his long term, non-concentration buffs already active, and a good defensive Contingency spell prepared to ensure he doesn't just get nova'd into nothingness and you should be okay.

[Easy_Lee]

Well, if he's supposed to be a boss character, I might do it this way: boss is the result of some strange ritual that caused two spell-casters to merge into one. Double the HP, double the concentration, double the spells, double the actions, one body. That could be a potent threat.

[Dalebert]

He needs minions somehow, either summons or hirelings. They don't have to be much, just enough to stall so he can get off at least a spell or two before they can swamp him. Have it be a druid with Conjure Animals and you're golden. Cast Freedom of Movement ahead of time. Summon 8 giant owls with flyby, i.e. no AoO on them. Have the owls assist him and impede the PCs while he casts Contagion on the scariest-looking party members. Then they can start attacking and stun-locking them or he could even summon something else at that point, maybe wolves to start dishing the damage more consistently.

Minions and/or legendary actions (probably and), and it could be challenging.

[ClintACK]

Pseudo-Legendary actions: 1/turn, a) transmute stone to mud, DC15 Dex, as Copper Dragon's lair action; b) Activate an Animated Object to attack (Animated Object spell refreshed 1/long rest); c) cast a cantrip.


I'll be using animated armor, helmed horrors, and the elemental armor creatures from Angry DM elsewhere in the dungeon. I like the idea of a latent animated object spell being imbued on features around the room since this is a transmuter's lair. :)


If you're set on an Animate Objects spell effect rather than permanently animated prepared mooks -- if this is a part of his intended defensive plan, there should be all kinds of things in the lair for him to animate. I'm thinking spiked chains hanging on the walls and bags full of caltrops and rugs and suits of armor and nets and garrotes... Definitely a mix of different sizes. And maybe something unique.

[Ditto]

Well, if he's supposed to be a boss character, I might do it this way: boss is the result of some strange ritual that caused two spell-casters to merge into one. Double the HP, double the concentration, double the spells, double the actions, one body. That could be a potent threat.

Check out the link to Angry DM's blog in my first post - his Paragon creatures are exactly that. Two creatures, one body. It gives a nice 'this is not my final form' element to interesting enemies, while also showing PCs they are making progress as they whittle away his HP since he'll slow down. :)

For animated objects, at least one of them will be a carpet of smothering that can fly. Gotta tackle that flying caster out of the air!

[Sir cryosin]

3 spells you need greater invisibility, magic Missile, Misty step, then add the fun spells like fireball, thunderwave, then you could add a few lackys with witch bolt and shield spell that sounds like a challenging incounter.

[Degwerks]

Like others have said, mirror image, fire shield, maybe Blink, forcecage, mordys hound... Counterspell and globe of invulnerability are a must. Also have some glyphs of warding that cast spells in the entrance to main battle area. Like conjure spells, evards tentacles, ottos irresistible dance, mass suggestion.

[Ditto]

Globe of Invulnerability is another way I plan to negate the casters' range advantage, if he needs a moment to regroup and heal and snipe them before they can close the distance. Bigby's hand will try to throw people away from him periodically too. Mass Suggestion is definitely in his spellbook and makes sense for the character, but Globe of Invulnerability would be his only 6th level spell for the day. That, or Sunbeam... hm, choices choices.

[BurchardOfEn]

I'd say take Globe of Invulnerability unless you think that he's already quite solid against your casters. I mean Sunbeam is incredibly good for its level, but it does suffer from being concentration. It's also more likely that your players will learn to avoid standing in a line and probably be more able to spread themselves out than monsters.

[CursedRhubarb]

If the caster boss is in his home/tower/keep/lair any party should be wary. Especially if it's a wizard. You could have him d-door in and out at points in the fight, downing one or two mixes of potions before returning and definitely lair options. If it's a high level wizard he should have some golems, animated weapons, statues that breath fire/ice/lightning/colorspray. All kinds of toys.

A caster boss shouldn't be consistently right in the fray. They may start so but pop out and unleash their toys then return once things look bad for the toys.

I'd look at a caster boss like the final boss of a MegaMan game. At least 3 stages, each one more tricky than the last and getting through it should be a close call and use the majority of available resources. Makes it feel much more rewarding though, with what casters have available, you may want to fudge some rolls to not accidentally turn the party to paste with a high end spell or trap.

[Ditto]

I'll prepare both spells and we'll see which he ends up needing first. As the only person in the group with D&D experience, I could absolutely ruin their day if I was playing totally optimal. But that's why NPCs have their own flavor and stories and tactics. My DM mentality is give the PCs a chance to be heroes - they have to earn it, but I still want to make sure the challenge is fun rather than frustrating.

He's not he boss of the entire campaign or anything, just this leg. There are plenty of hurdles for the team to cross before getting to him. I just wanted to make sure he's an appropriate challenge for the final thing they fight.

[coalmaine]

I'll be using animated armor, helmed horrors, and the elemental armor creatures from Angry DM elsewhere in the dungeon. I like the idea of a latent animated object spell being imbued on features around the room since this is a transmuter's lair. :)

Might I suggest you follow this further and make these true lair features that activate on proximity/sound/light and have an off switch of some kind within the lair. This gives the characters a more efficient way of dealing with the mooks. While also keeping the feel of a solo boss.

Hope this helps.

[Bubzors]

I've used the paragon monster template a lot in my campaigns. Works really well for solo bosses. I would also suggest to use lair actions. The biggest thing I found with solo bosses is to try and have minions, mobility or a gimmick to the fight. Otherwise in a straight up fight it can quickly devolve into just a round or two before the party pummel the boss to dust.

For example I once used a paragon warforged boss who had a mechanized grappling hook. He would wade into melee, dish out damage then on his second turn grapple hook out to a ledge above to heal or ranged attack. Really makes the players do more than sit still and whack at the boss.

As for gimmick, give the party an objective other than straight murder. Something like you have to save the sacrifices before they are killed, or you have to destroy the magical pylons powering the boss to stop his regeneration, stuff like that.

[the secret fire]

If he gets the jump on the party and hits them with something like Mass Suggestion: "Run over there; it's totally not a deathtrap", and then follows it up with a Prismatic Spray at the jerks who made their saves, he could pose a challenge. Having him prepped for the fight with a Globe of Invulnerability or even just Stoneskin could also increase his staying power by a good bit, though that eats up his concentration, which is why I suggested non-concentration spells.

Just because he's technically alone also doesn't mean he doesn't have undead pets to help him out. Contingency can also help greatly with his action economy - something like Animate Objects if he is attacked or targeted by a hostile spell.

A single 7th level caster can be quite difficult to deal with, but only if he gets to go first and is well-prepped with sneaky wizard action economy shenanigans.

[Easy_Lee]

Just to be clear, this is all kind of unexplored territory. Having a super caster boss, that is. I recommend giving your players a non-lethal losing condition, because you just might mess them up with this one. For example: loss results in imprisonment.

[RickAllison]

Just to be clear, this is all kind of unexplored territory. Having a super caster boss, that is. I recommend giving your players a non-lethal losing condition, because you just might mess them up with this one. For example: loss results in imprisonment.

Magical experimentation! He tests various potion combinations on them, or tries to recreate owlbears!

[Gignere]

Ever smoking bottle + Animate objects locked them in the room guaranteed TPK.

[Ditto]

Animated objects aren't smart enough to do spring attacks, and the PCs would get AoOs at the very least. Animated Objects aren't terrifically tough. Annoying as heck for a few rounds, but hardly TPK.

They'll be captured and prepared for sacrifice, for sure. There's an NPC who might be able to spring them. And the boss has a plan to DDoor away if he's in big trouble, gather reinforcements, and return. They'd have a chance to hide or flee if they were slick about it.

[Gignere]

Animated objects aren't smart enough to do spring attacks, and the PCs would get AoOs at the very least. Animated Objects aren't terrifically tough. Annoying as heck for a few rounds, but hardly TPK.

They'll be captured and prepared for sacrifice, for sure. There's an NPC who might be able to spring them. And the boss has a plan to DDoor away if he's in big trouble, gather reinforcements, and return. They'd have a chance to hide or flee if they were slick about it.

Read the rules for AoO you can only take one when you can see. Hence the ever smoking bottle.

[Ditto]

::reads rules for Heavily Obscured:: A fog cloud is equal to darkness?! It makes you completely blinded?! Holy crap, that's absurd. I never had cause to look up that definition before. It's even better/worse than Darkness, since you can't darkvision of Devil's Sight your way out of it.

[NNescio]

Cleric casts Spirit Guardians. Done. He always has it prepared anyway (even the more castery kinds of clerics probably still do, the spell is that good), and likely has the War Caster feat.

Druid has Wind spells like Gust of Wind and Warding Wind to disperse the fog. If he didn't have those prepared, well, he can change into a form with Blindsight and potentially tank the encounter, especially if he's Moon and has access to Elemental forms. The latter might still result in a few other characters dying though, depending on how well the animated objects are coordinated.

Wizard and other arcane casters can also use Gust of Wind or Warding Wind, or just drop a Fireball at their feet if they feel daring (and don't have the wind spells prepared).

Anybody with Alert is also less vulnerable in this encounter.