Monk Weapons and Stealth Attacks

[RPG_NPC]

Am I right in thinking that just because a Monk can use Strength or Dexterity with their Monk weapons, they do not automatically become Finesse weapons for the purpose of a Theives' Sneak Attack?

[gkathellar]

You are, indeed, right about that.

My suggestion would be to talk with your GM about lifting the finesse restriction, either just for your fists or for all weapons. Removing it will do nothing to balance and will open things up in terms of builds.

[Easy_Lee]

Am I right in thinking that just because a Monk can use Strength or Dexterity with their Monk weapons, they do not automatically become Finesse weapons for the purpose of a Theives' Sneak Attack?

According to strict RAW, being able to use dexterity with a weapon does not automatically make that weapon finesse. That said, many are of the opinion that the whole sneak attack only with finesse thing is more fluff than game balance.

[Sabeta]

Just adding on, Unarmed Strikes are not weapons, and therefore cannot be Finesse. Anything Else would probably be an easy refluff to add the Finesse Property either to the weapons themselves or to the Monk Weapon feature. ie: "A Monk can wield various weapons as Monk Weapons. When they do so, it gains the Finesse property"

[Fflewddur Fflam]

Am I right in thinking that just because a Monk can use Strength or Dexterity with their Monk weapons, they do not automatically become Finesse weapons for the purpose of a Theives' Sneak Attack?

Just go and use a shortsword for a monk/rogue's sneak attacks. A shortsword is both a finesse weapon, and a monk weapon, and oh yeah, the shortsword's damage can increase to 1d8 at monk lvl 11, or 1d10 at monk lvl 17.

[Easy_Lee]

Just adding on, Unarmed Strikes are not weapons, and therefore cannot be Finesse. Anything Else would probably be an easy refluff to add the Finesse Property either to the weapons themselves or to the Monk Weapon feature. ie: "A Monk can wield various weapons as Monk Weapons. When they do so, it gains the Finesse property"

Just to be clear, this is errata. Unarmed Strike is on the weapons table, and therefore is a weapon in the base game.

[bid]

Just to be clear, this is errata. Unarmed Strike is on the weapons table, and therefore is a weapon in the base game.
Wait, errata are optional rules now?

Don't buy a 4th printing, it aint "the base game" anymore.

[gkathellar]

Just to be clear, this is errata. Unarmed Strike is on the weapons table, and therefore is a weapon in the base game.

There is no base game, in this sense, because errata is incorporated into successive printings (which is stated in the errata document, to be clear). My PHB has no unarmed strike on the weapons table for exactly this reason.

[Citan]

Just go and use a shortsword for a monk/rogue's sneak attacks. A shortsword is both a finesse weapon, and a monk weapon, and oh yeah, the shortsword's damage can increase to 1d8 at monk lvl 11, or 1d10 at monk lvl 17.
This.
Or, if the DM is ready to go that far*, create a custom weapon like gauntlets or knuckles (the closest to bare fists you could make) that are finesse monk weapons AND can be used with all Monk's abilities (= assimilated to Unarmed Strikes).

*I'm saying this because I faintly remember that mixing Martial Arts with "fists as a melee weapon" could open some very powerful combos, although certainly not game-breaking.

[Sabeta]

Just to be clear, this is errata. Unarmed Strike is on the weapons table, and therefore is a weapon in the base game.

plural noun: errata
an error in printing or writing.
a list of corrected errors appended to a book or published in a subsequent issue of a journal.

It is not a weapon, and was never meant to be. Just like how the third feature of the Grappler Feat was never meant to exist because it refers to a rule that doesn't exist in the base game. Unlike Sage Advice, which offers insight into how the rules work, this is 100% rules as written; it's just an addendum made after the fact because they noticed errors.

Monk's being classified as weapons did open up to some unintended combinations. Nothing game breaking, but iirc you could theoretically play a Blade Pact Warlock who uses Fists as their Pact Weapon, and could therefore transfer magical properties of items they're attuned to into their fists. Basically, you could have +1 Unarmed Strikes.

[Easy_Lee]

Monk's being classified as weapons did open up to some unintended combinations. Nothing game breaking, but iirc you could theoretically play a Blade Pact Warlock who uses Fists as their Pact Weapon, and could therefore transfer magical properties of items they're attuned to into their fists. Basically, you could have +1 Unarmed Strikes.

Which was identified as a problem, for some reason, well after the fact. Because monks having an unarmed strike damage bonus is a problem, I guess? Except that some published adventures have items which do just that.

The whole "isn't a weapon but can make weapon attacks" caused a major ****storm when it happened. No one knew exactly how to rule anything related to unarmed strikes for a few weeks.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Just go and use a shortsword for a monk/rogue's sneak attacks. A shortsword is both a finesse weapon, and a monk weapon, and oh yeah, the shortsword's damage can increase to 1d8 at monk lvl 11, or 1d10 at monk lvl 17.
Heck, use a dagger. It'll do the same damage.


*I'm saying this because I faintly remember that mixing Martial Arts with "fists as a melee weapon" could open some very powerful combos, although certainly not game-breaking.
Like what?

[RickAllison]

Heck, use a dagger. It'll do the same damage.


Like what?

Depending on your definition of "wielding" in-game (is there an official one?):

Dueling FS (+2 damage on unarmed strikes, invalid if wielding requires holding the weapon)

Dual Wielder (+1 AC, invalid if wielding requires holding the weapon)

And that's it. Nothing particularly game-breaking, especially since Dueling already can be applied to non-bonus action attacks for monks, and they could do the Dual-Wielder thing anyway without seriously hampering their martial arts.

[ZanettonBR]

Imo, you're not. They dont get the finesse property because they are "monk weapons". You can use them with Str or Dex, but that's not because they are finesse, that's because they are monk weapons. That's u for the DM to decide, really, but i bet he would be ok with using the dagger as a finesse weapon, since it is, while using it to deal snea attack. Also, dont orget it is not a "monk punch", its a "unarmed attack", including kicks or even the hand you're not using to hold the weapon, so you can always use your unarmed attack,even when one of your hands are full.

[RickAllison]

Imo, you're not. They dont get the finesse property because they are "monk weapons". You can use them with Str or Dex, but that's not because they are finesse, that's because they are monk weapons. That's u for the DM to decide, really, but i bet he would be ok with using the dagger as a finesse weapon, since it is, while using it to deal snea attack. Also, dont orget it is not a "monk punch", its a "unarmed attack", including kicks or even the hand you're not using to hold the weapon, so you can always use your unarmed attack,even when one of your hands are full.

Indeed. Monks get two attacks eventually that can be used with finesse weapons. Although the idea that using Dex for a melee attack would make it usable with Sneak Attack would be great for someone dipping Druid. "As a spider, I crawl into his pants. I attack. Hit, I deal 1+Xd6 Sneak Attack damage and use Cunning Action to Hide in his pants."

Just imagine a cockroach with it. Nigh-unkillable and able to just trash everyone he crawls on...