Help with a Deep gnome rogue/monk: viable?

[wilhelmdubdub]

With Storm Kings Thunder coming out soon I want to have some ideas for an AL legal character ready:
I thought if my party needs a rogue a deep gnome would be fun if he was the role of the sneaky thief of the group. I thought since I remember the 3.5 lore talking about gnomes being good giant hunters he would be cool to roll out in this upcoming season.

15+1 Dex, 15 wis, 14Con, 10Str, 8+2 Int, 8Cha

Deep gnome gives you: small (+1 AC), 120ft dark vision, land speed 25ft. plus monk bonus, gnome cunning (advantage on saves vs magic Int, Cha, Wis, stone camouflage (advantage on stealth check in rocky terrain)

Rogue: expertise (in stealth and thieves tools or perception), cunning action to dash, disengage or hide, uncanny dodge for 1/2 damage as reaction. Assassin: advantage on 1st round on enemies that haven't gone yet (Sneak Attack) autocrits on surprise round, ability to use poison kit,

Monk: AC 10 +Dex +Wis =only 15, Martial arts: Scaling unarmed strike, able to use as a bonus action, use dex for monk weapons and unarmed strikes, flurry of blows, step of the wind, increased movement speed, deflect missiles, slow fall, Stunning strike, magical unarmed strikes at level 6, stillness of mind (can shake charm or frightened as standard action). Way of the shadow: Can cast darkness, dark vision (don't need), pass without trace, silence, and minor illusion, shadow step (60ft. teleport in darkness then advantage on next melee attack (sneak attack).

All of those abilities are below level 6 for each class, so they will be timely in a character build from level one up.

Synergies: Basically I would sacrifice sneak attack and unarmed strike damage for easier ways to get sneak attack off. Cunning action will save ki points as I will get extra actions without using step of the wind. Stunning strike will give me advantage (Sneak Attack).

Feats: I need Dex and wisdom, however I know alertness is basically a must. Also I was thinking for Magic Initiate; I could go Druid: magic stone fired from a sling for 3x 1D6 shots you can proc sneak attack from as a cantrip, shillelagh for magic monk weapon or poision spray as a ninja-type trick to go along with a poisoner type theme and different damage type, and fog cloud 1/day to cover an escape or grant advantage or start with a surprise round.

How should I level up, and where do i get my evasion from, as both classes offer it? Where should I get my skills from, and which background? Viable? At 13th level pure rogue would have 7D6 sneak attack die, as opposed to 4D6 for my split build. Is this a build for solo adventuring which would make for a selfish party member? Is it hard to get sneak attack for experienced rogues out there, or will the extra monk abilities really help with consistent damage? Does a rogue have to be a good liar (needs Cha), or would a honor-bound ninja killer be kind of cool RP concept? I think low armor class would be the worst of it, as well as average hp. Would the fun be worth the nerf?

[Fflewddur Fflam]

Take this from a guy who has played a bit of monk, starting with an AC of 15 on your monk is not a good situation, you want to get to AC 17 by 4th level because before that your monk is too squishy.

Deep Gnome isn't the best race for monk because Int is a dump stat and you are getting a +2 bonus there which is wasted points in point buy. I don't want to dissuade you from your build because you can play whatever you want, just know that it's not going to be the best monk in the world compared to a Wood Elf monk, say.

Since you aren't taking Open Hand Monk (the best monk along with Long Death Monk), you will have a hard time getting in there and getting away, well unless you use your bonus actions to disengage or teleport. Using bonus actions for anything other than unarmed strikes is a sub-optimal use of a monk. They are the only class that can get 3 or 4 attacks per turn long before a fighter ever can. You want to always be using the bonus actions of a monk to be doing damage.

Mobile is almost a necessary feat for any monk that's not Open Hand, but as you've noticed, you are very MAD because you are playing deep gnome monk who is already behind stat-wise compared to a Wood Elf or even Variant Human monk.

But do what you want to do, just don't expect it to be gang-busters.

And in answer to your evasion question, yes, you need to decide which class is going to be your dominant one. 5 levels of monk gives you Extra Attack and stunning strike, a monk's bread and butter. You could certainly go Rogue 15/Monk 5 is you like. I prefer Monk 14/Rogue 6 because I think the monk just gets more goodies as they level up that really make an impact.

Don't go to sleep on a Long Death Monk 14/Assassin 6 either. Not only is that thematically fitting, but Long Death Monks kick all kinds of ass.

[wilhelmdubdub]

I forgot the +1 for being small, but its hard to turn down wood elf, +2 dex and +1 wisdom,
I would go:
15+1 wisdom, 14+2 dex, 14con, 10str, 10cha, 8int. 35+5 land speed and can hide in foliage, rain etc. shortsword and longbow for my ranged. I would still get the 16AC but can take my stat bumps in 4dex, 8alertness, 12 dex, 16 mobile, .. is max wisdom necessary? In what order does the leveling up make since? I would start as a rogue sailor for athletics, perception, acrobatics, stealth, slight of hand and insight. Then monk 4, not sure what to rush to, but I think that ability score is priortiy.

[RulesJD]

With Storm Kings Thunder coming out soon I want to have some ideas for an AL legal character ready:
*snip*

Deep gnome gives you: small (+1 AC), 120ft dark vision, land speed 25ft. plus monk bonus, gnome cunning (advantage on saves vs magic Int, Cha, Wis, stone camouflage (advantage on stealth check in rocky terrain)

Rogue: expertise (in stealth and thieves tools or perception), cunning action to dash, disengage or hide, uncanny dodge for 1/2 damage as reaction. Assassin: advantage on 1st round on enemies that haven't gone yet (Sneak Attack) autocrits on surprise round, ability to use poison kit,

Monk: AC 10 +Dex +Wis =only 15, Martial arts: Scaling unarmed strike, able to use as a bonus action, use dex for monk weapons and unarmed strikes, flurry of blows, step of the wind, increased movement speed, deflect missiles, slow fall, Stunning strike, magical unarmed strikes at level 6, stillness of mind (can shake charm or frightened as standard action). Way of the shadow: Can cast darkness, dark vision (don't need), pass without trace, silence, and minor illusion, shadow step (60ft. teleport in darkness then advantage on next melee attack (sneak attack).

All of those abilities are below level 6 for each class, so they will be timely in a character build from level one up.

Synergies: Basically I would sacrifice sneak attack and unarmed strike damage for easier ways to get sneak attack off. Cunning action will save ki points as I will get extra actions without using step of the wind. Stunning strike will give me advantage (Sneak Attack).

Feats: I need Dex and wisdom, *snip*

How should I level up, and where do i get my evasion from, as both classes offer it? *snip*

1. Small size does not grant +1 AC. Not sure where you're getting that from.

2. Honestly, you have to decide whether you want to be mostly Monk, or mostly Rogue.

For your character, I would say mostly Monk. Levels of Rogue on a Monk are nice, don't get me wrong. I personally would go Swashbuckler for the free mini-Mobile/Alert features as AL typically doesn't give you chances for a Surprise round so Assassin is largely wasted.

3. I would ignore feats as a Monk. Honestly, boosting Dex + Wisdom is your best bet. I love Monks tremendously, but in combat, your best feature by far is Stunning Strike. Making sure it hits (Dex) and actually stuns (Wis) is the best thing a Monk can do. This is especially true against Giants who typically have good Con saves. This is 10x important on a Gnome because you won't be starting with +3 Wisdom.

[wilhelmdubdub]

I think in 3.5 you get a +1 to AC, my mistake.
Which book is swashbuckler in? -Thanks

[RulesJD]

I think in 3.5 you get a +1 to AC, my mistake.
Which book is swashbuckler in? -Thanks

Aaaah gotcha. Small creatures basically get screwed in 5e.

Swash is in the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide.

[RPG_NPC]

Swashbuckler is in Unearthed Arcana Waterborne Adventures

https://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/UA_Waterborne_v3.pdf

Edit: Is his different to the SCAG one?

[wilhelmdubdub]

Same, thanks- is it AL legal?

[Fflewddur Fflam]

I would ignore feats as a Monk. Honestly, boosting Dex + Wisdom is your best bet. I love Monks tremendously, but in combat, your best feature by far is Stunning Strike. Making sure it hits (Dex) and actually stuns (Wis) is the best thing a Monk can do.

This man speaks the truth. If you don't plan on getting to AT LEAST 18 in Dex and Wis on monk (preferably 20 for both), don't bother playing a monk, he's just gonna suck at being one. DC saves for stunning strike with a Wis of 16 is not going to cut it.

The only feat a non-open hand monk might need is mobile, and if you are multi-classing to swashbuckler then you don't need that.

[Fflewddur Fflam]

Same, thanks- is it AL legal?

SCAG is AL-legal. Lots of good class options in there.

[Fflewddur Fflam]

I forgot the +1 for being small, but its hard to turn down wood elf, +2 dex and +1 wisdom,
I would go:
15+1 wisdom, 14+2 dex, 14con, 10str, 10cha, 8int. 35+5 land speed and can hide in foliage, rain etc. shortsword and longbow for my ranged. I would still get the 16AC but can take my stat bumps in 4dex, 8alertness, 12 dex, 16 mobile, .. is max wisdom necessary? In what order does the leveling up make since? I would start as a rogue sailor for athletics, perception, acrobatics, stealth, slight of hand and insight. Then monk 4, not sure what to rush to, but I think that ability score is priortiy.

Why 10 Str and 10 Cha? These are monk dump stats. Optimal Wood Elf build would be:
Str 8 Dex 17 Con 15 Int 8 Wis 16 Cha 8
First ASI: +1 Dex +1 Con
2nd ASI: +2 Wis
3rd ASI: +2 Dex
4th ASI: +2 Wis
this gets us to Str 8 Dex 20 Con 16 Int 8 Wis 20 Cha 8. If you have a fifth ASI you can stick a feat in there somewhere before your 3rd ASI, say. If not playing an Open Hand Monk (who can take away all reactions with a flurry of blows hit), one might consider mobile.

[Citan]

Hi!

Shadow Monk + Assassin Rogue is a classic combination, but you indeed have to choose what your focus is.
One of the best splits is usually 6 / 14.

Advantage Rogue
6 Monk / 14 Rogue means you are a Rogue with less Rogue features but gain 3 per short rests spells (Darkness/Pass Without Trace/etc) which are great to surprise/sneak, Extra Attack (always good for a Rogue), Slow Fall, Deflect Missiles and Dodge as bonus action for a ki.
Everything else from Monk is wasted, because you will prefer being in light armor with max DEX: so no Unarmed Attacks, no Flurry, and Stunning Strike will have too low chance of success to be useful.

This is still pretty viable especially if you want to keep your idea of Gnome Rogue, but that's basically it: you're a "Tweaked Rogue" of sorts, you won't really feel like a Monk.

Advantage Monk
You're a Monk which traded some high level features to get free Dash/Disengage/Hide as a bonus action, extra oomph on your main attack, half-damage reaction and double Expertise.
This can work very well but then you indeed have to optimize much more, starting with Wood Elf choice.
Mobile feat would be a nearly mandatory choice for you. Additionally, if you have anyone in your party that can enhance your to hit (Bless, Faerie Fire or anything else) and/or your friends count on your Stunning Strikes, bump WIS ASAP (once you got DEX to 18 max).
(You could also use the "self Darkness" tactic, but it comes with drawbacks... I'll let you look for the numerous threads talking of it on the forum ^^).

What should orient your choice is...
- What place/role will you have in your party? Skill/Party face/Striker = Rogue. Otherwise, Monk.
- What do you like the most: rushing through enemy lines to pummel stun that nasty mage (Monk)? Or put a blade or arrow in the head of an unsuspecting enemy (Rogue)?
Have fun :)

[wilhelmdubdub]

Hi!

Shadow Monk + Assassin Rogue is a classic combination, but you indeed have to choose what your focus is.
One of the best splits is usually 6 / 14.

Advantage Rogue
6 Monk / 14 Rogue means you are a Rogue with less Rogue features but gain 3 per short rests spells (Darkness/Pass Without Trace/etc) which are great to surprise/sneak, Extra Attack (always good for a Rogue), Slow Fall, Deflect Missiles and Dodge as bonus action for a ki.
Everything else from Monk is wasted, because you will prefer being in light armor with max DEX: so no Unarmed Attacks, no Flurry, and Stunning Strike will have too low chance of success to be useful.

This is still pretty viable especially if you want to keep your idea of Gnome Rogue, but that's basically it: you're a "Tweaked Rogue" of sorts, you won't really feel like a Monk.

Advantage Monk
You're a Monk which traded some high level features to get free Dash/Disengage/Hide as a bonus action, extra oomph on your main attack, half-damage reaction and double Expertise.
This can work very well but then you indeed have to optimize much more, starting with Wood Elf choice.
Mobile feat would be a nearly mandatory choice for you. Additionally, if you have anyone in your party that can enhance your to hit (Bless, Faerie Fire or anything else) and/or your friends count on your Stunning Strikes, bump WIS ASAP (once you got DEX to 18 max).
(You could also use the "self Darkness" tactic, but it comes with drawbacks... I'll let you look for the numerous threads talking of it on the forum ^^).

What should orient your choice is...
- What place/role will you have in your party? Skill/Party face/Striker = Rogue. Otherwise, Monk.
- What do you like the most: rushing through enemy lines to pummel stun that nasty mage (Monk)? Or put a blade or arrow in the head of an unsuspecting enemy (Rogue)?
Have fun :)

Thanks for the sound advice, I think wood elf monk with a dip in rogue to level 6 at most, would work out nicely. I would go full unarmored, and way of shadows would satisfy much of the flavor of disappearing as I wanted. monk 14/rogue 16 lets you multiattack, stunning fist on the first, get that 3D8 and then get away because they can't take reactions. My capstone would be diamond soul, proficiency in all saves and a reroll for one ki point. I see how mobile feat helps with the clash between cunning action and flurry of blows. Overall, the build kinda reminds me of Ra's al Ghul flavoring.

[ZanettonBR]

Small tip: The dagger can be counted as a monk weapon, ass well as it is abl to deal sneak attack, so this becomes very viable.
Be careful, because darkvision does not let you see through magic darkness as far as i remember.If it doesn't, the warlock has a feat for that.