Non lethal sneak attacks

[RPG_NPC]

Sometimes you don't want to engage in a noisy fight but need to take out your target in a quick, quiet manner.

In terms of fluff, I've been thinking about a Monk or Rogue build that could sneak up on the guards and rend them unconscious with a "Vulcan Nerve Pinch" or a finessed cosh to the back of their heads.

Are there any mechanics for a non lethal sneak attack? Possibility a feat or a new Rogue subclass?

[Cybren]

The default rules state when you drop someone to 0 you can specify that your attack is non-lethal, but if that's a little too easy for you (and doesn't make much sense) you could create a new weapon like the sap and use something like a short sword but bludgeoning damage

[Ninja_Prawn]

Are there any mechanics for a non lethal sneak attack?

Page 198 of the PHB. "When an attacker reduces a creature to 0 hit points with a melee attack, the attacker can knock the creature out."

Sneak Attack adds "extra" damage to an "attack", thus there is nothing in the RAW preventing you from declaring non-lethal damage on a melee attack, even if you're adding your SA dice.

Edit: ooh, ninja'd. I was hoping I'd win this one...

[Logosloki]

When you drop someone to 0 HP with a melee attack you can decided whether you knock them out or end them rightly. If you knock them out they become unconscious and stable.

For a set piece rather than combat I would allow someone to conk someone unconscious with a stealth vs perception, within reason. There are probably other combinations and DC values that people could give and maybe some people would consider multiple checks but if the group is willing to try and be stealthy rather than stabby I am going to facilitate that within reason.

[RPG_NPC]

So in the Rogues case if we homebrew as cosh as a finesse bludgeoning weapon with 1d4 damage...

At 1st level they could do 1d4+Dex+1d6 non lethal damage to an unsuspecting target, enough to knock out a Kobold maybe.

At 3rd level with the Assassin* subclass it would auto-crit to 2d4+Dex+4d6 against a surprised target, more than enough for the average orc or castle guard.

At for the Monk's Vulcan Neck Pinch, a refluffing of Stunning Strike maybe?

*Yes I get the irony of a non-lethal Assassin.

[RPG_NPC]

... The homebrew'd Cosh is more fluff, I find it difficult to picture doing Non Lethal damage with a piercing weapon...

[Ninja_Prawn]

... The homebrew'd Cosh is more fluff, I find it difficult to picture doing Non Lethal damage with a piercing weapon...

It depends on the game situation. Against big monsters, you might spend several rounds attacking to wear away their HP before you knock them unconscious. In that case, you could say they fainted due to bloodloss. Obviously that doesn't make as much sense in a surprise round.

[RPG_NPC]

I think I've played too much of Thief 2: The Metal Age...

[JellyPooga]

... The homebrew'd Cosh is more fluff, I find it difficult to picture doing Non Lethal damage with a piercing weapon...

"You hit a nerve cluster. The bleeding is minimal, but your target drops like a stone."

"After several rapid strikes, the pain is too much; the guard screams and falls unconcious. You bend to check his breathing; though laboured, he still lives."

"Your sword drives deep into his gut. He doubles over, clutching at his stomach. The wound is probably fatal without medical attention, but for now he lives and appears stable.."

Just because someone drops, doesn't mean a wound is fatal. Just because a wound is fatal, doesn't mean they drop dead on the spot.

[Giant2005]

Edit: ooh, ninja'd. I was hoping I'd win this one...

You really need to consider changing your name to Ninja'd_Prawn.

[Ninja_Prawn]

You really need to consider changing your name to Ninja'd_Prawn.

Maybe, but I reckon I'm still ahead in the count of 'people I've ninja'd vs times I've gotten ninja'd'...

[Cybren]

"You hit a nerve cluster. The bleeding is minimal, but your target drops like a stone."

"After several rapid strikes, the pain is too much; the guard screams and falls unconcious. You bend to check his breathing; though laboured, he still lives."

"Your sword drives deep into his gut. He doubles over, clutching at his stomach. The wound is probably fatal without medical attention, but for now he lives and appears stable.."

Just because someone drops, doesn't mean a wound is fatal. Just because a wound is fatal, doesn't mean they drop dead on the spot.

To be fair you can still count the attack as nonlethal even if you roll max damage on a critical sneak attack. Trying to argue "it COULD" be nonlethal is missing the point. The rule is extremely broad and situation agnostic (beyond requiring melee), which plays better than the old subdual damage system, but isn't particularly realistic

[Coffee_Dragon]

Just because someone drops, doesn't mean a wound is fatal. Just because a wound is fatal, doesn't mean they drop dead on the spot.

The weird thing is that PCs get to choose which one it is, every time...

[Christian]

The potential game balance issue to keep in mind: if you make it in any way significantly easier or quicker to render enemies unconscious than to kill them, you also thereby make it significantly easier to kill them. Anything that lets you bypass hit points to reach the unconscious condition then opens up the associated free advantage and auto-crits on subsequent attacks, 5E's version of the coup de grace. Once you cosh the guard on the back of the head and he slumps to the ground, it's easy to slit his throat. If this tactic was being used because the surprise backstab, while equally effective, would have left an undesirable trail of dead bodies, that's fine; in that case, the existing rule works perfectly. But if the problem was that the guard had too many hit points to take out in a single round of attacks (or two, if you could count on surprise and winning initiative) and would get a chance to sound an alarm, then making a rule that lets you bypass those hit points to knock him out quickly is really just making a rule to bypass hit points.

Yes, there are a few of those already. They've been cranked back in this edition intentionally, still maybe not far enough ... Uncrank at your own risk. If you do this, remember the "fair's fair" principle: NPC's and monsters should get opportunities to do it to the PCs as well. And while good-aligned PC's might be disinclined to perforate jugulars of unconscious foes, their chaotic evil nemeses may be less dainty.

"Bounded accuracy" means that low-level guardsmen are appropriate (easy) challenges for mid-level adventurers, which means the classic 'sneak-thief coshes guard once on the head and he silently slumps to the floor' is easy to simulate. Weapon damage + Dex + 3d6 sneak attack will pretty reliably take a standard 11 HP MM Guard to 0 with one hit--call it for unconsciousness rather than death and you're good. Say you're whacking him with the pommel of the dagger or the guard of your rapier. The one big thing I see missing from the rogue arsenal is a sap--we need a finesse bludgeoning weapon for rogues to use for these situations, flavor-wise, even if the above works mechanically. Say:



Simple Melee Weapons


Name
Cost
Damage
Weight
Properties


Sap
5 sp
1d3 bludgeoning
1 lb.
Finesse, light

[Ninja_Prawn]

Anything that lets you bypass hit points to reach the unconscious condition...

...should be vetoed by your DM.

Hit points are there for a reason and I, for one, would not recommend allowing KOs without legitimate attacks/damage.

[Toofey]

If you made it conditional to unaware off guard enemies and gave a con save this could be fine, that would remove it from combat and make it a tactical option for characters sneaking fully while keeping it out of fights.

Perhaps the con save could be at advantage if the target is not specifically off guard at the time of the attack so while most guards are easy there'll be good ones wherever the DM decides who stay on guard and take it seriously

If you're really that worried about characters then slitting guard's throats you could rule that you still have to deal damage as opposed to auto killing the enemies knocked unconscious this way, but really if you keep it limited in who you can knock out you can already remove it from most situations where it's really going to disrupt the story.

[Cybren]

...should be vetoed by your DM.

Hit points are there for a reason and I, for one, would not recommend allowing KOs without legitimate attacks/damage.

Unless it's a particularly unimportant enemy against a particularly powerful PC, in a particular kind of game, but then you probably wouldn't even go into combat, and just say "yeah you knock him out don't waste our time rolling dice"

[Vogonjeltz]

Just because someone drops, doesn't mean a wound is fatal. Just because a wound is fatal, doesn't mean they drop dead on the spot.

Hit point loss doesn't necessarily indicate physical damage was done to the target. Imagine that the target is being strangled into unconsciousness, they lose hit points but no outward sign of violence would exist until well after they pass out.

Even weapon damage can be viewed as the opponent simply getting worn down until they can no longer defend themselves, at which point the final (lethal or nonlethal) blow actually connects.


To be fair you can still count the attack as nonlethal even if you roll max damage on a critical sneak attack. Trying to argue "it COULD" be nonlethal is missing the point. The rule is extremely broad and situation agnostic (beyond requiring melee), which plays better than the old subdual damage system, but isn't particularly realistic

I like it better because it's less bloat than the 3.5 method where you had to track damage bringing HP down and temporary damage adding up until the actual hp met the temp hp and the target was knocked out. This is much more wieldy, and it allows the rogue to basically knock a target out in one hit, potentially.

I see to recall reading about many intraparty conflicts when one character really wanted to be non-lethal, despite it not meshing well with the lethal characters.

Besides, the whole idea is a little silly, there's no way to ensure that something intended as nonlethal won't actually kill the subject. Knocking someone on the head? Probably caves their skull in and results in death, or just major traumatic brain injury/coma/death.

Cutting off the oxygen supply by constricting the arteries on their neck? (i.e. choke hold) same deal, can result in brain damage, coma, death.

That all being said, it's a fantasy game, so I think it's safe to streamline it and let the heroes knock enemies out all they want.

[Joe the Rat]

Christian: I'd make it 1d4 and leave it there. More expensive than a club, not throwable like a dagger.


"You hit a nerve cluster. The bleeding is minimal, but your target drops like a stone."

"After several rapid strikes, the pain is too much; the guard screams and falls unconcious. You bend to check his breathing; though laboured, he still lives."

"Your sword drives deep into his gut. He doubles over, clutching at his stomach. The wound is probably fatal without medical attention, but for now he lives and appears stable.."
"You switch grip and strike them across the head with the pommel of your dagger." The hit is a hit, the damage is taking them out, a pommel strike or flat of blade is a perfectly reasonable explanation. It is a reasonable assumption of intent, given that subdual must be done in melee.

[Easy_Lee]

In real life, we don't have much in the way of non-lethal attacks. There's some grappling and a few chemicals, but that's about it. Everything else carries at least some risk of serious injury. Strike someone in the head? Concussion, which can cause blood clots and lead to conditions like epilepsy or short term memory loss. Hit someone hard enough that they stay out for several minutes? That's very possibly brain damage.

The mere fact that non-lethal attacks exist at all in the d&d universe is evidence that we ought to suspend our disbelief on this one. Have the rogue attack the guard as normal, then let the player decide whether the guard dies or not if the attack reduces the guard to 0 HP. That's what the rules say, and within the d&d universe only, it makes perfect sense.

[RickAllison]

In real life, we don't have much in the way of non-lethal attacks. There's some grappling and a few chemicals, but that's about it. Everything else carries at least some risk of serious injury. Strike someone in the head? Concussion, which can cause blood clots and lead to conditions like epilepsy or short term memory loss. Hit someone hard enough that they stay out for several minutes? That's very possibly brain damage.

The mere fact that non-lethal attacks exist at all in the d&d universe is evidence that we ought to suspend our disbelief on this one. Have the rogue attack the guard as normal, then let the player decide whether the guard dies or not if the attack reduces the guard to 0 HP. That's what the rules say, and within the d&d universe only, it makes perfect sense.

That's also why I keep the clause on hitting their max HP on rollover. Roll too high of damage or get a critical hit and (just like real life) you have a very real chance of killing them.

[Joe the Rat]

Indeed, even grappling and chemical methods need to be dosed appropriately.
Yes, grappling dosage.

[Garimeth]

I'm inclined to agree with Easy Lee on this one. I either just say the player knocked them out w/o any dice rolls, or use the current system mechanics.

This is usually a side effect of playing a lot of stealth based games. SILENT and subdual attacks are even more problematic. Consider the following examples:

I strike him on the back of the head. (Quite possibly fatal, and you'd have to ctach his body, and or carried equipment to keep it from making noise. Not to mention you might not actually knock him out.)

I Choke/strangle him, and slowly let his body to the ground. (He can still make noise, bang equipment, make loud choking sounds, and if he is wearing a gorget or other throat guard, which they SHOULD be, its going to be very difficult to choke them let alone quickly and quietly.)

I do any combination of the above, but I also put my hand over his mouth! (He bites your hand, drops his equipment, your blow accidentally kills him, or doesn't kill him and now he's struggling with you calls for help, etc.)



There is a reason that in real life when people are trying to be sneaky they either kill their target or don't engage most of the time.

[Shaofoo]

The mere fact that non-lethal attacks exist at all in the d&d universe is evidence that we ought to suspend our disbelief on this one.

Just this one? I would expect we have to suspend our disbelief on a lot of things while playing D&D. I do wish this kind of attitude is prevalent on a lot more things cause some people just like to cherry pick what reality applies and what gets a free pass.

[Cybren]

Just this one? I would expect we have to suspend our disbelief on a lot of things while playing D&D. I do wish this kind of attitude is prevalent on a lot more things cause some people just like to cherry pick what reality applies and what gets a free pass.

Not everything strains everyone's credulity to the same degree, and 'free' non-lethal takedowns isn't always genre appropriate. Certainly in some campaigns a DM should say "you can't harmlessly knock people out without specialized equipment", and in others they shouldn't even care.

[JeffreyGator]

I think that the OP may have been looking for a martial version of Sleep which renders the victim unconscious without requiring healing afterward.

Choosing non-lethal just means the victim isn't making death checks unless there was too much overflow.

For a monk letting them spend a ki point to sleep someone might be workable.

On hit, spend a ki point and if 5(MA dietype) + wis mod > current hp the person takes no damage and falls asleep. Additional ki points add 2(MA dietype). Normal rules to wake up: damage, shaken etc.