CHEESE and character creation. What do you think? (3.5, Optimization)

[BelGareth]

So I'm having a lively debate with some of my potential players for a game I'm going to be running, regarding cheesey things to do in character creation. This is for an Epic game, so Cheese is easy to stray into without realizing it, especially if you fail to baseline accordingly.

What spawned the conversation was the use of Otyguh hole and chaos shuffle. (I allowed Chaos shuffle, but denied multiple O hole uses)

So with that in mind, what are some of the things that you consider cheesey in games? This doesn't have to be epic level, it could be any combination of Warsnake, to Fusion, to the Symbiot template. I'm curious.

There is a quote floating around (and I cannot find it right now), but it's something along the lines of, I like my character creation how I like my Coffee, without cheese.

Specific examples would be appreciated.

Obvious things are obvious: infinite anything, although fun for theorycrafting, are not really meant for actual gameplay.

[Ruethgar]

I allow cheese in character creation for thematic purposes and occasionally to give mundanes a bit more of a boost(such as letting Fighters change their 5 proficiency feats). But I typically disallow cheese just for power.

[OldTrees1]

I consider RAW bodges (2.a clumsy piece of work or a badly done repair) to problems the DM could fix with the player to be cheese. Either the result is not DM approved or the result could have been done better without the bodge.

Likewise I consider temporal paradox builds to be cheese. Removing a prerequisite or ability after you have used it to qualify or gain a permanent effect results in a build that would not work if it started from 1st level.

I consider using a mechanic against its intent to be cheese unless the intent was misguided. The most notable example is Flaws. I can love Flaws, provided we are both respectful to their role.

(You can tell I don't like Chaos Shuffle can't you?)

[BelGareth]

I allow cheese in character creation for thematic purposes and occasionally to give mundanes a bit more of a boost(such as letting Fighters change their 5 proficiency feats). But I typically disallow cheese just for power.

Indeed, i usually do this, boosting things that need it, IMHO is not cheese.


I consider RAW bodges (2.a clumsy piece of work or a badly done repair) to problems the DM could fix with the player to be cheese. Either the result is not DM approved or the result could have been done better without the bodge.

Likewise I consider temporal paradox builds to be cheese. Removing a prerequisite or ability after you have used it to qualify or gain a permanent effect results in a build that would not work if it started from 1st level.

I consider using a mechanic against its intent to be cheese unless the intent was misguided. The most notable example is Flaws. I can love Flaws, provided we are both respectful to their role.

(You can tell I don't like Chaos Shuffle can't you?)

I hear you, and usually I'm with you on this, Chaos shuffle is usually a no go, but this specific example is level 28 gestalt, so a certain power level is inherent (with brew of course, call me crazy).

I think the general consensus for most people is the abuse of RAW vs RAI.

EDIT: also flaws are a great way to add flavor to a character, but at higher levels, it's usually just another feat, and really doesn't add anything to them. Lower levels, i usually require that they mean something, and are not covered up by another Class feature/special ability. Flaws and failures provide depth of character, and increases the roleplay vs rollplay trap that PbP's often trend towards.

[AvatarVecna]

So with that in mind, what are some of the things that you consider cheesey in games? This doesn't have to be epic level, it could be any combination of Warsnake, to Fusion, to the Symbiot template. I'm curious.

There are things that can be considered "high-op" without being super-cheesy. Rainbow Warsnake, for instance, is a lot cheesier if you don't have to play through levels 1 through 9; staring out with all 10 levels is much easier. Nevertheless, even a full Rainbow Warsnake isn't super-cheesy to me, just a particularly powerful option for a class that kinda needs the help. I feel that restricting a player's choices solely because some particularly clever options result in guaranteed victory is discouraging creativity; if the player wants to try and complete every adventure from the safety of their unknowable, undetectable, forbiddance-covered demiplane with Astral Projection, that just means I can put some effort into actually trying to provide them with a challenge. Most of my serious problems with cheese come not from clever ability use to achieve great things, but optimization that revolves around just throwing huge numbers at the problem.

1) Reserves of Strength seems intended to only raise the caster level cap some spells have in regards to the CL bump that feat gives you, but a strict reading of the feat says that the cap is just plain removed if you're using RoS with it. That seems cheesy to me, since it allows for some ridiculous CL-stacking...particularly if you're using RoS to abuse Consumptive Field's Caster Level boost.

2) Combining the 3.0 hivemind rules with the 3.5 swarm rules is technically legal, but is ridiculously overpowered by most any sense. Even without making a full H.I.V.E. build, or a Khepri build like the one in my signature, a bare-bones Cleric 7/Vermin Lord 10 can form a 20000 member hivemind with just their familiars, and that gives them and their two hiveminded familiars casting as a Sorcerer 382 with Int 407, Cha 399, 198 bonus skill points per HD, and 198 bonus feats per HD. That's the bare minimum a cheesy Vermin Lord can pull off: triple actions, CL nearly 400, several dozen bonus spells/day for every level, enough feats to get all the usual optimization suspects, most every useful metamagic, and Extra Spell to pick up every Sorcerer spell they wanted but couldn't get with their basic spells known.

3) Awaken Loops and similar are pretty cheesy, especially if they're being purchased via spellcasting services as part of your backstory.

There is a quote floating around (and I cannot find it right now), but it's something along the lines of, I like my character creation how I like my Coffee, without cheese.[/QUOTE]

I know the quote you're talking about, although I can't find it ATM. It goes something like "I like my characters like I like my coffee: strong, but with no cheese in it".

[OldTrees1]

I hear you, and usually I'm with you on this, Chaos shuffle is usually a no go, but this specific example is level 28 gestalt, so a certain power level is inherent (with brew of course, call me crazy).

I think the general consensus for most people is the abuse of RAW vs RAI.

EDIT: also flaws are a great way to add flavor to a character, but at higher levels, it's usually just another feat, and really doesn't add anything to them. Lower levels, i usually require that they mean something, and are not covered up by another Class feature/special ability. Flaws and failures provide depth of character, and increases the roleplay vs rollplay trap that PbP's often trend towards.

I just noticed I kinda ranked my top 3 concerns. That first one really cuts out a lot that otherwise gets justified in. It requires the DM to be willing to brew more elegant solutions but that is something I am easily willing to do.

[Jyssika]

There is a quote floating around (and I cannot find it right now), but it's something along the lines of, I like my character creation how I like my Coffee, without cheese.

I like my Characters like I like my Pizza.
"As a building tool to hold all the other flavorful ingredients in place"

And believe me... I was forced to share a 5 cheese pizza with my partner last March in France.
It was terrible... I felt like I was being suffocated with cheese.

[drack]

I hear you, and usually I'm with you on this, Chaos shuffle is usually a no go, but this specific example is level 28 gestalt, so a certain power level is inherent (with brew of course, call me crazy).
This is something I often see. I'm generally of the belief that such things ought to be banned or allowed regardless of character level depending instead on GM preference. What is cheese to some is not cheese to all. I, for instance, tend to allow chaos shuffle, but they can only take feats that they could have acquired at the time. Essentially it's investing in altering their build mid game. I certainly frown at people using it, but different GMs have different rulings.
Some allow the feats to bypass level requirements. Some don't even frown at it, others ban it entirely. In the end cheese is defined by the GM. Certainly I've seen and disapprove of the stuff avatar mentioned, but my personal style tends to be to undermine broken tricks with RAI. For instance the item... what was it, ?memory pendant? That lets you lock in your current xp value? I tend to rule that it restores level loss after it's become permanent, but that if the levels are lost by spending xp they're still lost. Thu every GM has the responsibility to set the bar, and in doing so the curd is separated from the whey and cheese is made. :smallbiggrin:

[Seppo87]

1) Anything that grants extra resources at creation should be banned.

2) Anything that gives extra resources above character per level table is to be avoided.

Examples:
Q: I want to begin the game with more feats, because hole & dark chaos
A: Nope.

Q: Now that we're playing, my character does the hole & dark chaos thing.
A: Nope.

Q: I turn this cow into salt and sell it infinite times
A: This won't work either before or after character creation. Go adventuring if you want money, we're not playing Money & Merchants

3) Apply to everything.