Grappling While Tiny -- Help!

[Demidos]

Hey all,

So the case came up that I was interested in playing an Ozodrin Petal. Why, you ask? Good question, I have no idea.

I am aware of a tactical feat in Races of the Wild which allows you to

1) Use either dex or str for a trip attempt
2) Negate size penalties during this trip attempt

I was wondering if there are any similar options available for grappling. I know I could play a more natural attack based build, but I'd like to have a petal that swallows dragons, and the class's reliance on grappling makes that a shifty proposition for a tiny fey.

What suggestions do you have?

Edit: I was informed of a feat named Clever Wrestling, which does something similar, but as far as I know, only works to escape a grapple. Can anyone verify?

[KillianHawkeye]

Edit: I was informed of a feat named Clever Wrestling, which does something similar, but as far as I know, only works to escape a grapple. Can anyone verify?

That's correct, and I'm reasonably certain that is by intent. It is much harder to find some justification for a technique that allows a smaller character to overcome their natural disadvantage at wrestling than it is for a technique that does the same for tripping since people can be tripped by small objects all the time in real life.

[Magikeeper]

Which version of the 3.5 Ozodrin? The 3.5 update, or the original version?

If the original, I think that's really a matter of optimizing FP total and dumping a bunch of it into +grapple. Most efficient fp-to-grapple in the original is.. hrm.. petals are tiny, so they can't (ab)use the "small X" augments like medium sized creatures can. Still Fine-sized limb + claw + claws that catch is 4-2+2+1= 5fp for +4 grapple which isn't bad (Requires level 9. Fine-sized Hooked tendril 3fp for +2 much earlier). Original gives improved grapple for free, and you can get another +2 from aberrant blood, so that's +6 just from the class. Feat-wise, deepspawn gives another +2 grapple and can be converted into +6fp (+1 for aberrant). Petal has a hill to climb but grappling dragons is not impossible. Depends on if you are using flaws or not as well, given how heavily the original depended on feats for +FP. Toss on some magic items for further optimization.

If you're using the 3.5 update, things are different. Irregular Maneuvering at level 4 lets you ignore size penalties when grappling, so that's that. Clasping Claw augment at level 8 is likely your best option for further pumping - there is no "small X" in the updated version (so ozodrin size doesn't matter) but augment can be multi-applied at a 3fp:+2 grapple ratio. Focused Horror(Limb) feat would bring this online at level 6 if playing at lower levels, combine it with Farspawn feat to negate the Focused Horror penalty.


Those are not.. that far apart if an ozodrin is tiny sized. Interesting. In contrast, a medium-sized ozodrin can hit a 1fp:+2 grapple ratio in the original but is still stuck at 3fp:+2 in the update.

[Blackhawk748]

Be a Chaotic Evil Soulborn, you ignore all penalties to Strength, its the basis of the Tibit grappler

[Inevitability]

Be a Chaotic Evil Soulborn, you ignore all penalties to Strength, its the basis of the Tibit grappler

Tibbit grappler is based on slightly less shaky ruling, though. It's one thing to say soulborn removes the -8 strength penalty tibbits explicitly get when they shift into cat form. It's another thing to say soulborn removes the racial strength penalties you calculated in long ago.

Besides, even if you got rid of the strength penalties this way, you'd be tiny. That's a -8 penalty on your grapple checks compared to a human, or -12 compared to a Large creature.


My personal suggestion would be binding Zagan, but it's a 6th-level vestige and therefore hard (impossible?) to bind if you aren't a binder. He would make you count as large for the purpose of grappling, though.

[Crake]

Be a Chaotic Evil Soulborn, you ignore all penalties to Strength, its the basis of the Tibit grappler

Except that you cannot grapple people two or more size categories larger than yourself, so a tiny petal (or a tibbit in cat form) simply cannot grapple a medium creature at all.

[Bronk]

Is there any way for your character to turn itself into a stirge (also tiny) in order to take advantage of it's quasi-grapple 'attach' ability?

Edit: Also, 'Ozodrin' appears to be homebrew already, so just change it.

[Eldariel]

Honestly, Zagan is about the only way. It allows you grapple anything up to Huge while remaining Tiny, which is your best bet if you want the hilarious "I just got suplexed by a mosquito"-image. Stuff like Polymorph would of course work but miss the whole point.

So go Binder. Then it's just a matter of stacking bonuses to Strength-checks, Grapple-checks or such. Anima Mage could be good to that end; Octopus-familiar [Stormwrack] is +3 Grapple, and there are tons of good low level spells that help with Grapple-checks (see here (http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=13119) or here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=13432.0) for instance). Further, you can always use stuff like Marshal's Motivate Strength (or the one for combat maneuvers) to add more stats to it. Pumping Grapple the oldfashioned way is for chumps.

[ShurikVch]

Great Grappler - 2nd level CF of Fierce Grappler PrC (Dragon #295) - allow to "hold and pin creatures up to two size categories larger than she is."

P.S. What is Ozodrin?

[Telonius]

I believe it's possible to have Giantbane, Underfoot Combat, and Confound the Big Folk in the same build. Climb Aboard (tactical maneuver from Giantbane) in particular could help out. It wouldn't necessarily be a Grapple check, per se, but it might fit the theme.

[Inevitability]

P.S. What is Ozodrin?

A rather popular, rather strong piece of homebrew on these forums. It basically turns you into an eldritch abomination.

[Crake]

Honestly, Zagan is about the only way. It allows you grapple anything up to Huge while remaining Tiny, which is your best bet if you want the hilarious "I just got suplexed by a mosquito"-image. Stuff like Polymorph would of course work but miss the whole point.

So go Binder. Then it's just a matter of stacking bonuses to Strength-checks, Grapple-checks or such. Anima Mage could be good to that end; Octopus-familiar [Stormwrack] is +3 Grapple, and there are tons of good low level spells that help with Grapple-checks (see here (http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=13119) or here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=13432.0) for instance). Further, you can always use stuff like Marshal's Motivate Strength (or the one for combat maneuvers) to add more stats to it. Pumping Grapple the oldfashioned way is for chumps.

That would arguably not work. Zagan says you are considered large size specifically for the purpose of grapple checks, not grappling in general, so you get a +4 size bonus to grapple checks, but you still do not meed the pre-requisite to actually establish a hold, which is determined before a grapple check is even rolled.