Fun Tactical Tip Vs Flyers. Any other fun ways?

[Hamilcar Barca]

Fun way to mess up that flyer who thinks you can't reach him/her/it because you are a melee tank or other ground pounder.

Get yourself a pair of Dimension Stride Boots and a couple of Safewing Emblems. When That next flyer halts within your ground move plus 60 feet use the boots to teleport next to them and stab, once. You may even get flatfooted against them, which adds sneak attack if you have it. When you are done the Safewing Emblem floats you gently to earth.
This also works with magic touch attacks and true strike if you can use it.Great for a surprise move that can end a combat quick or at least give them a new problem.

So any one else have a sneaky move against enemies who think they are unreachable.

Hamilcar Barca
D&D veteran since 75

[OldTrees1]

IIRC Dimension Stride Boots are a Standard Action to use.

[cagemarrow]

I'm always a big fan of nets and harpoons against flyers. Any effect that hinders movement can also screw non magic flyers if they don't have perfect maneuverability or the hover feat. They have to maintain airspeed based on their movement speed to remain airborn, a tanglefoot bag can really ruin their day. Or sovereign glue and a weight that puts them over a light load hurts too.

[Soranar]

the trick is not bad but it's what you do after that matters: you start a grapple

[zyggythorn]

Nah, you bullrush. Because you probably have the dungeon crasher acf, and the ground is no more than a horizontal wall.

[MisterKaws]

You can only target Conjuration(Teleportation) spells on firm ground, unless you're under the effects of Air Walk or something similar.

[Hamilcar Barca]

You can only target Conjuration(Teleportation) spells on firm ground, unless you're under the effects of Air Walk or something similar.

Where is this referenced. I must have missed this. Old school you could teleport to a known or in sight location.
This could put a crimp in my plans for Rico Suave-Swashbuckler/Rouge. Built to take out spellcasters or occupy bosses until the tanks arrive.

[Sayt]

A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.

Sauce (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#conjuration). Voila.

[OldTrees1]

Where is this referenced. I must have missed this. Old school you could teleport to a known or in sight location.
This could put a crimp in my plans for Rico Suave-Swashbuckler/Rouge. Built to take out spellcasters or occupy bosses until the tanks arrive.

That limitation does not apply to the Dimension Stride Boots (they are not a spell) in your opening post but the Standard Action activation does apply.

[MisterKaws]

That limitation does not apply to the Dimension Stride Boots (they are not a spell) in your opening post but the Standard Action activation does apply.

They have a Conjuration aura and are powered by a Conjuration(Teleportation) spell, consequently the same limitations apply to it.

[OldTrees1]

They have a Conjuration aura and are powered by a Conjuration(Teleportation) spell, consequently the same limitations apply to it.

They are crafted not "powered" by a Conjuration(Teleport) spell. Furthermore they are not a Conjuration(Teleport) spell. Therefore by RAW the limitation to Conjuration(Teleport) spells is not a factor. However I think we reasonably disagree on what limitations to apply if we were the DM. I can see why you would add that limitation and I can see why I would not add that limitation.

It goes without saying that if the boots were to cast a spell then we would be in agreement.

[MisterKaws]

They are crafted not "powered" by a Conjuration(Teleport) spell. Furthermore they are not a Conjuration(Teleport) spell. Therefore by RAW the limitation to Conjuration(Teleport) spells is not a factor. However I think we reasonably disagree on what limitations to apply if we were the DM. I can see why you would add that limitation and I can see why I would not add that limitation.

It goes without saying that if the boots were to cast a spell then we would be in agreement.

You don't even need the Teleport descriptor to have the limitation. Just being a Conjuration item makes it follow the Conjuration school rules, which include the ground limitation.

[OldTrees1]

You don't even need the Teleport descriptor to have the limitation. Just being a Conjuration item makes it follow the Conjuration school rules, which include the ground limitation.

Since when? Magic Armor does not follow the Abjuration SPELL rules, why do you insist that ITEMs follow the SPELL rules? If an item cast a spell, that spell would follow the "these rules are for spells and spells alone" rules.

Please cite where it says those rules extend beyond their scope.

[MisterKaws]

Since when? Magic Armor does not follow the Abjuration SPELL rules, why do you insist that ITEMs follow the SPELL rules? If an item cast a spell, that spell would follow the "these rules are for spells and spells alone" rules.

Please cite where it says those rules extend beyond their scope.

This game is not about rules that restrict what you do, it's about rules that allow you to do stuff. If an item has Conjuration(Teleport) written all over it, it follows those rules, unless it states otherwise. Even if you could argue that there's no rules stating that it specifically follows those rules, any reasonable DM would make it work like that. If you make it work differently, you're just creating inconsistency for the sake of allowing a cheesy strategy to exist. The restriction on teleporting upwards has been known as the only stop to the Battle Jump-Shadowpounce technique for quite a while, so just removing it because there's nothing clearly stating that won't do any good. Rule 0 exists exactly because of those writer oversights.

[Troacctid]

Technically, that limitation only applies to creatures transported to or conjured at your location. Anywhere other than your location is fine.

[OldTrees1]

This game is not about rules that restrict what you do, it's about rules that allow you to do stuff.
Not quite. If this game only had allowing rules than there would be no text limiting conjuration spells. Likewise if it only had restricting rules then there would be no rules detailing gaining an ability. This is a game about sections and subsections each with rules detailing those sections. That is why text used out of context is meaningless.

It has a section called spell descriptions under the section spells. In that section there is a part about rules about how Conjuration SPELLs work.


If an item has Conjuration(Teleport) written all over it, it follows those rules, unless it states otherwise. Even if you could argue that there's no rules stating that it specifically follows those rules, any reasonable DM would make it work like that. If you make it work differently, you're just creating inconsistency for the sake of allowing a cheesy strategy to exist.

Any reasonable DM? And here I was respectful enough of you to say that we might both reasonably rule differently. Not only do you fail to provide evidence for your position, but then you have the audacity to say people that rule differently are somehow unreasonable or deliberately creating cheesy inconsistencies*. Is this how you argue, by calling people that disagree with you unreasonable and brand them as badwrongfun?

No. I rule the boots as not being restricted by the rules for spells for 2 reasons:
1) At a standard action to activate and being self only it is fairly well balanced in its interactions with all not already broken abilities.
2) It is RAW and I have no reason to rule otherwise on this

I still think someone might be reasonable and still houserule like you do on this issue. However you no longer deserve that respect until you learn to reciprocate.

*Which I might add were a complete nonsequitor since neither the independently cheesy misreading of Battle Jump or the ever more cheesy ShadowPounce are even relevant to this conversation.

[Heliomance]

Sauce (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#conjuration). Voila.

You are neither bringing something into being nor transporting something to your location if you teleport yourself.

[MisterKaws]

No. I rule the boots as not being restricted by the rules for spells for 2 reasons:
1) At a standard action to activate and being self only it is fairly well balanced in its interactions with all not already broken abilities.
2) It is RAW and I have no reason to rule otherwise on this

So you balance items around by simply putting them on level with broken abilities? I just personally think it's better to first eliminate all cheese and balance it from then, but from a "path of less resistance" viewpoint, your method might be better. You can't really argue that it doesn't create inconsistencies, with MAGIC items working in a different way than the MAGIC spells from which they were derived.

Still, I had no intention of being disrespectful or aggressive. All I wanted was to explain my point. However, I don't think it was right of you to retaliate with disrespect or aggressiveness. If this is the kind of conversation you'd rather have, our opinions differ too much. That being said, I think it's best we end it here.

[OldTrees1]

So you balance items around by simply putting them on level with broken abilities? I just personally think it's better to first eliminate all cheese and balance it from then, but from a "path of less resistance" viewpoint, your method might be better. You can't really argue that it doesn't create inconsistencies, with MAGIC items working in a different way than the MAGIC spells from which they were derived.

Still, I had no intention of being disrespectful or aggressive. All I wanted was to explain my point. However, I don't think it was right of you to retaliate with disrespect or aggressiveness. If this is the kind of conversation you'd rather have, our opinions differ too much. That being said, I think it's best we end it here.

Hm.
I write: Ignoring already broken(and thus banned) cheese like Shadowpounce, Dimension Stride Boots are balanced because they are comparable to other balanced things.
You interpret: Ha Ha Ha Trollolo, I think DSB are balanced because they are as powerful as Shadow Pounce.
Do you see the disrespect and misrepresentation just dripping off your interpretation of what I said?

If you honestly had no intention to be so disrespectful or aggressive, perhaps don't demonize people that disagree with you.

As far as inconsistencies go:
Magic SPELLs have rules, Magic ITEMs have different rules. Both are Magic but the rules for Magic SPELLs are inside the SPELLs subsection. Just as ABJURATION Spells and CONJURATION Spells have different additional rules, so too do Magic SPELLs and Magic ITEMs have different additional rules.

If you want to end this discussion all you have to do is stop misrepresenting me. I have already agreed that both positions are reasonable ways to run the game. You have continued to attempt to misrepresent and demonize me personally. I don't take kindly to such mistreatment.

[Sayt]

Technically, that limitation only applies to creatures transported to or conjured at your location. Anywhere other than your location is fine.


You are neither bringing something into being nor transporting something to your location if you teleport yourself.
Arguably, you are transporting your characters' self to its new position, which is the position my home group ascribes to.

That said. What your specific location is whole teleporting is... not clear. Or if there is a 'while teleporting'...

[Calthropstu]

Flight.

Problem solved.

[Psyren]

Flight.

Problem solved.

Occam's Feather? I agree with this approach

[noce]

Bolt shirt is move action, 60 ft 1/day for 5000 gp.

[Rijan_Sai]

Fun way to mess up that flyer who thinks you can't reach him/her/it because you are a melee tank or other ground pounder...


Flight.

Problem solved.

Welcome to the Playground! :smalltongue:

[teslas]

Or, you know, just carry around a composite longbow like any non-stupid "All martial weapons" guy would.

Or, if time is not really an issue, there's also the time-honored tactic of "going inside". Hard for them to fly around outside of reach inside of a stone building or cave or whatever with 10' high ceilings. Hell, even a somewhat dense forest. The canopy/tree trunks/bushes provide all sorts of cover/concealment/blockage of line of sight.

A lot of DMs also suck and forget about maneuverability rules. Unless you have perfect maneuverability, flying around in a thick forest or something like that and remaining able to attack your opponents without being in a retaliatory distance is not really so easy.

[Deadline]

Flight.

Problem solved.

It's worth noting that this might not "fly" with some DM's (see italicized portion). But the bolded portion of the clause below coupled with the ability to fly should be sufficient for most DMs (it's certainly enough for my table):


A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.

Edit - And I just got why the response I quoted was funny, given that the OP was trying to come up with a trick to reach fliers without actually flying themselves. Oi, need more coffee this morning. :smallbiggrin:

[Hamilcar Barca]

I think we are getting a little off topic here. The whole idea was for low level/low power PCs to make a surprising attack against flyers. I want to make them feel vulnerable and afraid with out the problem flying yourself.

The standard action statement is very valid point and for now I will be teleporting above them with the sword pointed down. I will also grab them if I make the roll. There will be minuses to the to hit roll. Big minuses but the attack is the point not a high chance of success.

As for the problem of only teleporting to a surface I feel that unless special preparations are made stick to the ground. How ever since the boots are a item and must be used in line of sight and require a standard action (aiming I guess) I would allow the targeting of empty space. The GM in the game I plan to use this in agrees. We both agree that unless it is in the spell description using teleport as a instant kill against non flyers is to be avoided at all costs.

Please remember that this is a GM run game and that the rules can be bent, changed or modified as long as the players and GM agree to them. This was true in 75 when we had only three little books and is more true now with many much more wonderful books.

SOOOOO back to the point, any other ideas for taking out flyers that are surprising and low cost/power? I may teleport with a large net if I can find one in the game.

Hamilcar Barca

[MisterKaws]

SOOOOO back to the point, any other ideas for taking out flyers that are surprising and low cost/power? I may teleport with a large net if I can find one in the game.

Hamilcar Barca

Get a big-ish tent covered by Riverine silk - it's really thin, thus really cheap, while still being the hardest material in the multiverse. Set it up as soon as you think you might fight against flying enemies, and they'll have no choice but to enter the tent, if they want to kill you.

You could also have a really big Riverine silk umbrella. Just carry it around and open whenever someone wants to pew-pew you from the sky. If you make the entire thing out of Riverine and/or Adamantine, you can treat it as a masterwork improvised weapon, so you could make it a magic weapon, and with a single level of Drunken Master, you can legitimately swing it around as a proper weapon.

[OldTrees1]

What is the check for mounting a hostile mount? This might be more reliable than your plunging sword idea.


A decent number of low level flying threats are bound by maneuverability rules. This can be exploited as teslas mentioned but also leaves many of the vulnerable to stalling. If you can do a ranged trip attempt (which would cause a flying creature to stall) when the flyer is near an ally, the flyer would fall into the ally's zone of control.

[Deadline]

The standard action statement is very valid point and for now I will be teleporting above them with the sword pointed down. I will also grab them if I make the roll. There will be minuses to the to hit roll. Big minuses but the attack is the point not a high chance of success.

Well, that's just the problem that was pointed out. There is no way (by the rules) to attack after your teleport without more resource investment. If you can convince your GM to let you do it, more power to you.


Please remember that this is a GM run game and that the rules can be bent, changed or modified as long as the players and GM agree to them. This was true in 75 when we had only three little books and is more true now with many much more wonderful books.

Well sure, there's a ton of stuff you can get away with if your GM agrees or isn't looking too closely at it. Rule of cool is a thing. The problem with that is that unless those suggestions fall within the rules, many of them (possibly all of them) may not be useful to other folks, as they probably aren't playing with the same GM as you. That's why you'll see lots of folks trying to cleave closely to the rules here, as it seems to be the best common ground that can provide the most useful advice to the widest possible audience. (At least, that's what I've seen).

But hey, if we're blowing off the doors there are lots of shenanigans various groups used to get up to in the earlier editions. Breaking sieges with Troll bombs or Black Pudding grenades. Or, you know, things like this:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-h2glqJOvca0/UYHCbqCeNoI/AAAAAAAAJiI/ujPBZXEQAwc/s640/tumblr_mm4ars3PoP1qi28m7o1_1280.gif

:smallbiggrin:

Edit - Oh, to build on OldTrees1's suggestion, I think there is a feat in ... Complete Warrior? Giantbane I think, that has the "climb aboard" tactical maneuver in it. You might be able to work with your GM to make something out of that.

[OldTrees1]

Edit - Oh, to build on OldTrees1's suggestion, I think there is a feat in ... Complete Warrior? Giantbane I think, that has the "climb aboard" tactical maneuver in it. You might be able to work with your GM to make something out of that.

Found it:

Climb Aboard: To use this maneuver, you must move adjacent to a foe at least two size categories larger than you. In the following round, you may make a DC 10 Climb check as a free action to clamber onto the creature's back or limbs (you move into one of the squares the creature occupies)
Unfortunately they wrote in an arbitrary "in the following round" limitation on it.

How I would rule it as a DM: Without the feat you can still climb onto creatures two sizes larger than yourself. Doing so is a Move Action with a Climb DC of 20(modified by circumstances like a -5 for doing so while falling). You move with the creature when they move. Attempts to shake you off are resolved as their Grapple vs your Climb.

[Thealtruistorc]

One of the most evil ways I've dealt with a flyer?

Failing to mention that the villains had air walk active before starting the fight.

[MisterKaws]

One of the most evil ways I've dealt with a flyer?

Failing to mention that the villains had air walk active before starting the fight.

You don't really need to mention it as a DM, though.

Actually, I think not mentioning it is better in most cases.

[elonin]

Wonder if the flyer was larger than the one doing the teleporting would that count as a surface. Nothing in the text said the surface can't be moving.

Another idea Use a hulking Hurler to chuck others at the flyers.

[MisterKaws]

Wonder if the flyer was larger than the one doing the teleporting would that count as a surface. Nothing in the text said the surface can't be moving.

Another idea Use a hulking Hurler to chuck others at the flyers.

As long as carrying you doesn't take it to medium load(thus falling, in most cases), it should count as a surface capable of supporting your weight.

[MilleniaAntares]

Sauce (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#conjuration). Voila.
Pretty sure that doesn't apply to teleporting yourself elsewhere

[Hamilcar Barca]

What about other common stuff that you could take with you when you teleport above/next to your flyer victim? Is there something that you could carry that would bring them down? Harmed or unharmed doesn't matter. Just need to get them to a point where the three melee types can smash it.
If it can work for my swashbuckler it can work for other rouges, bards or other support types.

Also sorry I got a little preachy last post but it seemed to work with the idea of force mounting the target. Love the shear chutzpah of it.

Hamilcar Barca

[MisterKaws]

What about other common stuff that you could take with you when you teleport above/next to your flyer victim? Is there something that you could carry that would bring them down? Harmed or unharmed doesn't matter. Just need to get them to a point where the three melee types can smash it.
If it can work for my swashbuckler it can work for other rouges, bards or other support types.

Also sorry I got a little preachy last post but it seemed to work with the idea of force mounting the target. Love the shear chutzpah of it.

Hamilcar Barca

Well, if you had the help of a caster, a hula hoop with a Dispel Magic glyph set on it and wrapped in a bunch of papers, all with Explosive Runes set on them would be pretty nasty. They probably wouldn't be getting up again at all.

The DM would probably allow a Reflex save to avoid the hula hoop, though.

[Hamilcar Barca]

I think I have found what I need. Funny enough it is part of the treasure in the game I'm DMing.

The Hammersphere. 3D6 magic flying weapon with a range of 130feet. Last 3 rounds as far as I can tell. Only 1500 gold and also works against those ghostly types.

I can stay on the ground and deal with minions or use the standard bow to add to the damage. Any other outside of the cube ideas out there?

Hamilcar Barca

[Eladrinblade]

A fighter (with all those feats) could have quick draw and far shot. Quick draw the net with one hand (it's a one-handed weapon) and throw it up to 100ft (in 20ft increments). Non-proficiency is -4, and -2 up to 4 times for up to -12, but it's a touch attack, so you still have a decent chance.

It will drop all but the best fliers, and will slow even them, whether they break our or not, because breaking out is a full-round action. And it makes them easier targets.

If you snag them low, you can hold the rope and maybe keep them on a leash.

Or you can just use your longbow

I wonder if you could use a bola to "trip" a flier? How would that work?

[OldTrees1]

I wonder if you could use a bola to "trip" a flier? How would that work?

The Rules of the Game series of articles ran a set called All about Movement. Parts 4 & 5 (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040706a) covers some interesting rulings on flying.


Just Hanging On: Some combatants might not appreciate being grappled and dropped, especially if that means plummeting to earth afterward. If a dropped creature is at least two size categories smaller than the creature that dropped it, it can make a DC 20 climb check to avoid falling. If the Climb check succeeds, the dropped creature holds on somehow, and neither the creature that made the successful Climb check nor the creature to which it clings are considered grappled. The clinging creature, however, must hold on with at least one hand; it cannot use a shield, and loses its Dexterity bonus (if any) to Armor Class. If damaged while clinging, the creature must make a Climb check (DC 20) or fall.

If the larger creature moves during its action, the clinging creature moves along with it. The larger can throw off the clinging creature with a grapple (a standard action) opposed by the clinging creature's Climb check.


Trip

Most creature using wings or other appendages to fly can be tripped. Incorporeal creatures with perfect maneuverability, and creatures that don't rely on their limbs to fly cannot be tripped when in flight.

Resolving the Trip Attempt: The attacker makes a Strength check. The defender can oppose the attempt with a Strength check or a Dexterity check. Each creature gets a bonus based on its maneuverability rating, as follows: perfect +12, good maneuverability +8, average +4, poor +0, clumsy -4.

Stability bonuses do not apply in aerial overruns.

Trip Results: A successful trip forces the defender to stall (even if the tripped creature doesn't have a minimum forward speed) rather than knocking the defender prone.

[Eladrinblade]

Resolving the Trip Attempt: The attacker makes a Strength check. The defender can oppose the attempt with a Strength check or a Dexterity check. Each creature gets a bonus based on its maneuverability rating, as follows: perfect +12, good maneuverability +8, average +4, poor +0, clumsy -4.

I wonder if that's in addition to size bonuses/penalties? Or instead?

[OldTrees1]

I wonder if that's in addition to size bonuses/penalties? Or instead?

I expect it is in addition to size bonuses/penalties. However instead would be interesting as Str correlates with size but Maneuverability has negative correlation with size. I guess it depends on what the DM thinks is closer to verisimilitude.