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View Full Version : Duskblade feats: Trippy, Whacky, or Disarmy?



Saph
2007-07-05, 08:56 AM
Hey all. I'm building a Duskblade for an upcoming campaign and I'm trying to decide between three sets of feats. Anyone have some advice?

The campaign will start from level one. The DM is also notorious for killing off characters, and in fact boasts about it. Therefore whatever I make has to be pretty effective right from the start. Book of Nine Swords is banned, all other books are probably allowed. On the plus side, we have point buy 28 and will probably get a few bonus HP and skill points.

Here's my current build:

Duskblade 1 (Human)

Str 15
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 10
Cha 8

Skills: Concentration, Spellcraft, Jump, Climb, Tumble (cc)

Spells: Colour Spray, Ray of Enfeeblement, and the 0-level Duskblade spells (all 4 of them).

Equipment: Chain shirt, backup weapon, primary weapon (see below)

Feats:

This is where I can't make my mind up. With my mediocre HP and AC, I've already decided that I'll be best off using a reach weapon and stopping enemies from getting too close. However, I can't decide which combat style to use. The choices are:

Trippy Duskblade

Level 1: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
Level 3: Combat Reflexes
Weapon: Guisarme

Pros: Lets me trip opponents as they approach then hit them while they're down, doing plenty of damage and keeping me safe.
Cons: My trip modifier is only +6. Not only is it unlikely that I'll trip the average orc or hobgoblin, there's a significant chance that they'll trip me, forcing me to drop my guisarme and leaving me empty-handed.

Whacky Duskblade

Level 1: Combat Reflexes, Stand Still
Level 3: Hold the Line
Weapon: Glaive

Pros: Does marginally more damage and still lets me stop enemies from closing in. Gets Combat Reflexes at level 1 instead of level 3.
Cons: Anything I could stop with Stand Still I could probably kill in one hit anyway.

Disarmy Duskblade

Level 1: Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm
Level 3: Combat Reflexes
Weapon: Ranseur

Pros: Very high chance of disarming enemies as they come into range (disarm modifier of +12) and I can't be disarmed in return.
Cons: Many enemies don't use hand-held weapons.

So, which one do you think would be best? As yet I've got no information on the other party members nor what kind of stuff we're likely to go up against.

- Saph

Person_Man
2007-07-05, 09:40 AM
Duskblade is an excellent choice for a non Bo9S melee character.

Options:

Trippy: The ideal feat chain for a Trip build is Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Knock-Down (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/divineFeats.html), Combat Reflexes, then Hold the Line. Knock-Down grants you a free trip whenever you deal 10 or more points of damage, and doesn't rely on AoO, and is thus superior to Combat Reflexes early on (though you really do need to take both). Note that you do NOT then get another free attack from Improved Trip after you Trip your enemy, as Improved Trip states that "you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt."

Whacky: I've found that Stand Still is a big waste because it makes you forgo damage dealing. Thus, its only really useful against high hit point melee combat BBEG without reach, a small percentage of fights. If you're really worried about getting killed, then I would suggest reach weapon+Combat Reflexes+Hold the Line+Evasive Reflexes (and eventually, Karmic Strike). This allows you to automatically just step out of the way when someone attacks you.

Disarmy: Disarming your enemy is usually a very bad tactic in D&D. It's clearly weaker then Knock-Down or many other feat combos. Tons of enemies don't use weapons. Many enemies with weapons have backup weapons. And it doesn't give you a free AoO unless the enemy decides to pick up his weapon. Plus a Duskblade has a massive damage output, so there's really no reason to forgo damage dealing.

There's another option: Killy: There are a variety of high damage charge combos that work well with the Duskblade - Headlong Rush, Battle Jump, Spirited Charge, Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, etc.

Roland St. Jude
2007-07-05, 09:49 AM
Duskblade is an excellent choice for a non Bo9S melee character.
....
There's another option: Killy: There are a variety of high damage charge combos that work well with the Duskblade - Headlong Rush, Battle Jump, Spirited Charge, Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, etc.

This is my favorite option! Although I call him "Jumpy"

Human: Leap of the Heavens
1: Power Attack
3: Improved Bullrush
6: Leap Attack
9: Shock Trooper

Then add on some of those feats Person Man mentioned or Improved Sunder/Combat Brute for more tactical options. Pick up a spell-storing weapon for extra melee attack + spell releasing goodness. Plus, things like Rhino's Rush, the Valorous weapon enchantment, and other charge-enhancing things.

Saph
2007-07-05, 09:54 AM
Cool, thanks for the answer.


Trippy: The ideal feat chain for a Trip build is Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Knock-Down (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/divineFeats.html), Combat Reflexes, then Hold the Line. Knock-Down grants you a free trip whenever you deal 10 or more points of damage, and doesn't rely on AoO, and is thus superior to Combat Reflexes early on (though you really do need to take both). Note that you do NOT then get another free attack from Improved Trip after you Trip your enemy, as Improved Trip states that "you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt."

Knockdown's a nice feat, but there are two problems: first, it requires a +2 BAB, which means I can't get it until level 3 and Combat Reflexes until level 6, and second, it requires that I do 10 damage with a hit. A Guisarme does only an average of 5 damage a hit, so I'd probably have to use a greatsword instead. There's also the issue that at early levels, anything I hit for that much damage might be dead anyway.


Whacky: I've found that Stand Still is a big waste because it makes you forgo damage dealing. Thus, its only really useful against high hit point melee combat BBEG without reach, a small percentage of fights.

Agreed, it's not really worth it.


Disarmy: Disarming your enemy is usually a very bad tactic in D&D. It's clearly weaker then Knock-Down or many other feat combos. Tons of enemies don't use weapons. Many enemies with weapons have backup weapons. And it doesn't give you a free AoO unless the enemy decides to pick up his weapon.

The only reason I'm considering it is that it's got so much higher a success chance than Trip. Trip requires a touch attack, followed by an opposed Strength check, followed by an opposed trip attempt on you if you fail. I haven't run the numbers, but at low levels I'm not at all sure it's a good idea. Disarm, on the other hand, only requires a single opposed attack roll, I'd get a total bonus of +13 on it, and I wouldn't suffer any penalty if I failed.


There's another option: Killy: There are a variety of high damage charge combos that work well with the Duskblade - Headlong Rush, Battle Jump, Spirited Charge, Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, etc.

This might be worth it - what do you think the best feat chain would be? Power Attack to Leap Attack?

- Saph

Edit: Roland ninja-responded. :) The 'Jumpy' build is sounding fun. What would be the best weapon for that?

Roland St. Jude
2007-07-05, 09:58 AM
I think my actual jumpy character wields a greatsword.

It's the Leap of the Heavens feat from PHBII that really makes this build outstanding. It gives you a +5 to all jump checks that you take a running start on, and removes the DC doubling for jumping from a standstill!

Ikkitosen
2007-07-05, 10:07 AM
If you get some orc blood in you then Headlong Rush is the feat for you - if you choose this route your preferred weapon is a reach weapon to avoid those pesky AoOs you'll otherwise suffer.

The only problem I have with investing in 2h-chargey feats for a DB is that once you hit level 13 you get the ability to have one channeled spell affect all of your attacks, clearly pointing to two weapon fighting as the favourable route. Maybe you could retrain at this stage though :smallcool:

Draz74
2007-07-05, 01:31 PM
Knockdown's a nice feat, but there are two problems: first, it requires a +2 BAB, which means I can't get it until level 3 and Combat Reflexes until level 6, and second, it requires that I do 10 damage with a hit. A Guisarme does only an average of 5 damage a hit, so I'd probably have to use a greatsword instead. There's also the issue that at early levels, anything I hit for that much damage might be dead anyway.

Well, once you have Knock-Down, you don't need a Guisarme or other weapon that has specific tripping ability. You can use a Glaive and still have reach. (Reach is good.) That still only boosts your average damage by 0.5. :smallannoyed: But you have to count on other sources of damage -- Strength and Power Attack. Of course, then there's the problem of getting Power Attack. Take a flaw? (I actually think flaws are lame, but it's an option to consider.)

My actual advice, if LA races are allowed, is to switch to Half-Giant instead of Human. That +4 bonus to Trip and Grapple is really nice. :smallamused: Of course Half-Giants are really built to be Psychic Warriors, not Duskblades. (Compare a Half-Giant Psychic Warrior to a Fighter in Grappling at ECL 3. Fighter has +3 BAB. Half-Giant only has +1 BAB. However, he has +1 to grapple from his racial strength bonus. +4 from Powerful Build. +4 from Expansion Power. +4 from Grip of Iron power. A net +10 advantage!)

Person_Man
2007-07-05, 02:51 PM
Jumpy should pick up Battle Jump. It's from Unapproachable East, and can be taken at 1st level. It gives you double damage on a charge, but you must first make an insane Jump check, making the ideal race Dragonborn or Raptorian. And/or you could use Headlong Rush (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030301a), and/or Spirited Charge (which I generally prefer because it's Core). So your feat chain might be Battle Jump->Power Attack-> Headlong Rush->Leap Attack->Improved Bull Rush->Shock Trooper. Regardless, I belong to the school of thought that believes you should always use a reach weapon when possible, because it adds battlefield control, which is usually more valuable then a few points of damage.

Saph, it should be supremely easy for your Duskblade to deal 10 damage or more on every hit by level 2-3, assuming you're smart enough to make your Str high and use a 2 handed weapon. And note that Knock-Down doesn't require a that you use a Trip weapon, so you can use a greatsword at first level until you can find a magical weapon to push you over the top.

Saph
2007-07-05, 03:32 PM
Saph, it should be supremely easy for your Duskblade to deal 10 damage or more on every hit by level 2-3, assuming you're smart enough to make your Str high and use a 2 handed weapon. And note that Knock-Down doesn't require a that you use a Trip weapon, so you can use a greatsword at first level until you can find a magical weapon to push you over the top.

Yes, but there's still the problem of not enough feats. To do that much damage every hit I'd need Power Attack, and that brings the feat total to four (Expertise, Trip, Knockdown, Power) which I won't have until level 6.

And doesn't Knockdown have the same problem as with trip strategies in general, namely that a strong, large, or four-legged opponent has a good chance of not only resisting your trip, but tripping you as well?

- Saph

TheThan
2007-07-05, 03:35 PM
*rubs hands together *


Ok I highly recommend the “smashy” feat tree. It gives you more power earlier on than with any other build. Especially TWF because you don’t get to full attack with your channeled spells until fairly high levels. Maybe you can retrain to get it but that’s highly dependent on the Dm. I’d go with power attack, cleave and maybe great cleave. Or I’d pick up power attack (need it for leap attack anyway), leap of the heavens and leap attack and improved charge, then cleave and great cleave. Charge in and smack the living crap out of them with a spell channeled into your weapon, while power attacking and leap attacking! Then when you land, you cleave into the next guy if you drop your first target. I’d also pick up arcane strike from complete warrior, as it lets you add even more damage to your melee attack, at the cost of a spell.

For that build I’d go with a great sword or possibly a reach weapon like a Lance or a Guisarme. I’d try to talk you Dm into letting a lance deal double damage while your charging on foot. But if you decide to go with a reach weapon, then you should certainly invest in short haft, as it lets you use reach weapons against adjacent enemies.


[edit]: Battle Jump sounds really mean with this build. however remember that a duskblade only gets 7 feats (8 if you're human) so you have to pick and choose.

Jack Mann
2007-07-05, 03:53 PM
Just as a note: If you ever really want to disarm someone, remember that it's an opposed attack roll. When they're prone, they take a -4. You get a +4 against them.

EDIT: Er, never mind that last part. I was thinking of something else.

Soepvork
2007-07-05, 05:36 PM
*rubs hands together *

Ok I highly recommend the “smashy” feat tree. It gives you more power earlier on than with any other build. Especially TWF because you don’t get to full attack with your channeled spells until fairly high levels.

Full attacking while channeling your spells is less useful than one would think at a first glance:


At 13th level, the duskblade’s arcane channeling class feature (Player’s Handbook II, 20) says “you can cast any touch spell you know as part of a full attack action, and the spell affects each target you hit in melee combat that round.” If you hit the same creature more than once during the full attack action, does the spell affect it each time you hit?
No. The spell affects each target only once.

TheThan
2007-07-05, 05:39 PM
yes I know this, that is why I recommend the the power attack feat tree and a two hander. just look in my sig for the details.

Fawsto
2007-07-06, 12:51 PM
Hummm... Being Knock Down my favourite feat, I should say that it works pretty well in anything with medium size. It is true that in lower levels you will probably kill anyhting dealing 10 hp. But when you combine this feat with combat reflexes and whirlwind attack, you make the enemies cry.

But in any other way. Go for the Killy if you find Hack 'n slashing more suited for you :smallbiggrin: (I'd go for it!)