Easy Fix for Way of the Four Elements Monk? [Archive]

Fflewddur Fflam

2016-08-09, 10:35 AM

rudy

2016-08-09, 10:43 AM

An extra ki every other level sounds like a fair remedy.

Actually, if you approach the 4E Monk as a blaster first and a monk second, they really aren't too bad. If you get the typical 2 short rests in an "adventuring day", then a 12th level 4E monk can cast fireball NINE TIMES in a day. That's pretty blasty. Multi-class that with Sorcerer and you can use metamagic on a 4E monk's spells. Blasty blasty.
It's blasty, yes, but falls far short of the blastiness, versatility and power of an equivalently leveled sorcerer.

I think I will go ahead and combine the every-other-level ki increase with the addition of the elemental cantrips for flavor.

* Extra ki on every even level starting at 4th.

* One of the four elemental cantrips (control flames, gust, mold earth, shape water) at levels 5, 7, 9, 11. Adding those is definitely one of the better ideas that "crowd-sourced" variant elemental monk introduced.

Those two should be enough to at least make it competitive, while adding more flavor and roleplaying versatility.

Kryx

2016-08-09, 10:56 AM

rudy

2016-08-09, 11:05 AM

The problem you'll face is that no spell is worth the ki cost in comparison to Stunning Strike (1 ki = stun). That option is by far the most efficient and better than any option the four elements monk has.
Oh, I see what you're saying. It might be better then for me to revise the costs of their existing abilities downward, rather than granting more ki. Hm.

Kryx

2016-08-09, 11:16 AM

rudy

2016-08-09, 11:22 AM

I'd tear up monk's point system and make things cost as much as they do on DMG 288 and give points based on that expectation instead of trying to alter spell point costs to match 20 ki.
You make a really good point about "competing" with stunning fist. I'll have to seriously consider boosting the cost of that to 2 ki, while giving all monks the extra one ki every other level to balance out that increase. Then it would be easier to make spells competitive. That's a bigger change than I wanted to make, but it may be needed.

Fflewddur Fflam

2016-08-09, 11:24 AM

I would set the spell point values to the values listed on DMG 288. The spells are balanced by level and those points are balanced as well. Spells will cost a lot so I'd use EK to determine how many points a 4 elements monk gets.

I would aim for EK progression. In total an EK gets 1 4th (6), 3 3rd (3*5=15), 3 2nd (3*3=9), 4 1st (4*2=8) = 6+15+9+8 = 38 points at level 20. I would either aim for that (potentially as a different pool) or flatly give them spell slots equal to EK.

I think trying to compete with 1 ki = stun is a losing battle. Stunning Strike's ki cost is not synchronized with spell costs as presented in DMG 288. Trying to get spells and Stunning Strike in the same system and make spells worth taking is a losing battle imo.

Yeah, this is true. Stunning strike is really hard to beat.
I always felt that the 4E monk should just have a spell table like the Arcane Trickster or Eldritch Knight.

Because no one is asking for it :smallwink:, here is my homebrew version.

Way Of The Four Elements Revision

Use the Arcane Trickster Spellcasting table in the PHB. Your spellcasting ability is Wisdom and the available spells are:

Cantrips
Booming Blade, Create Bonfire, Control Flames, Firebolt, Green-Flame Blade, Gust, Mold Earth, Produce Flame, Ray of Frost, Shape Water, Thunderclap

1st Level Spells
Burning Hands, Create or Destroy Water, Earth Tremor, Feather Fall, Fog Cloud, Ice Knife, Thunderwave

2nd Level Spells
Aganazzar’s Scorcher, Dust Devil, Earthbind, Flaming Sphere, Gust of Wind, Heat Metal, Levitate, Maximilian’s Earthen Grasp, Pyrotechnics, Scorching Ray, Shatter, Skywrite, Snilloc’s Snowball Swarm, Warding Wind

3rd Level Spells
Erupting Earth, Fireball, Fly, Gaseous Form, Meld Into Stone, Melf’s Minute Meteors, Tidal Wave, Wall of Sand, Water Breathing, Water Walk, Wind Wall

4th Level Spells
Conjure Minor Elementals, Control Water, Fireshield, Ice Storm, Stone Shape, Stoneskin, Storm Sphere, Wall of Fire, Watery Sphere,

ELEMENTAL FIST
3rd level: Once per turn, can add either 1d8 bludgeoning, cold, fire, or thunder damage with an unarmed strike. The damage is 2d8 at 11th level.

ELEMENTAL BOON
6th Level: As a bonus action, can spend 1 ki point to gain resistance for one hour to any one of these damage types: bludgeoning, cold, fire, or thunder. You may do this multiple times within the same hour for the other damage types. During this time period, you may add your wisdom modifier to the damage of any spell you cast that deals the damage type that you have chosen to resist.

ELEMENTAL CONTROL
11th Level: As a rxn, spend 2 ki points to cast Counterspell against any spell that would deal either bludgeoning, cold, fire, or thunder damage.

ELEMENTAL RETALIATION
17th Level: If a creature hits you with a melee attack, use your reaction to deal either bludgeoning, cold, fire, or thunder damage. The damage equals 5 +Wis modifier.

rudy

2016-08-09, 11:26 AM

Because no one is asking for it :smallwink:, here is my homebrew version.
I do like the idea, and I may borrow some ideas from it, but certain... elements of it seem too powerful. Like being able to add 1d8 damage every turn.

Laurefindel

2016-08-09, 11:26 AM

Fflewddur Fflam

2016-08-09, 11:29 AM

I do like the idea, and I may borrow some ideas from it, but certain... elements of it seem too powerful. Like being able to add 1d8 damage every turn.

That was just imitative of Cleric's divine strike which gets +1d8 damage each turn that goes up to 2d8 at higher levels. If it's not too powerful for a Cleric, why would it be too powerful for a monk?

ruy343

2016-08-09, 12:46 PM

I think that you've got a problem here: you want the 4-elements monk to be a sorcerer/monk hybrid, so that they can have better versatility and blastiness so they can be on par for damage even into later levels. However, I don't think that's the purpose of monks at later levels.

As someone who has actually played a 4-elements monk through a campaign at high levels, I have firsthand experience with how this balances out.

At later levels, monk damage (for monks of all varieties) falls off to roughly 4 attacks when a monk is going all-out, each dealing 1d10+4 (assuming a standard array early on). While this isn't terrible by any means, it's often not what they're choosing to do: they're often using their bonus action abilities, allowing them to only attack twice with the same damage statistics, and they don't gain access to feats that help boost damage like great weapon/bow wielders do. However, I don't think that the way of the 4 elements should be a way to fix that.

Why? Because monks are already the most reliable combatants in the game. No matter the circumstance, a monk can be effective, though sometimes not impressive with their damage. Monks are immune to poison and disease, can spend an action to end a charm or fear effect, can run on water and move along vertical surfaces without penalty, can fall from most any height without harm, automatically gain evasion, they can outrun a horse, and they can never be aged magically. They are the only class that can use the dodge action as a bonus action, and their stunning strikes strike fear into any DM's heart.

While open-hand monks allow their strikes to impose status effects (and at very late levels gain the quivering palm ability) and shadow monks get improved mobility and spell-like powers, 4-elements monks are able to actually deal AOE damage (to compare with quivering palm, how about a Wall of Fire?), can deal damage of elemental types if needed, and can gain useful self-buff or evasion spells. I don't think that they're underpowered at all, though they do have to be conservative with their effects - pulling them out for select situations, not throwing them around willy-nilly like characters from Avatar: The Last Airbender.

But see, that's the problem - I think that people expect them to be like characters from that show: to have the ability to become a half-sorcerer with the monk chassis (which would be just broken).

In an effort to contribute constructively to the discussion on ways to change/improve them: if your players insist on a change to make them more interesting, I recommend the following:

Elemental Strikes (3rd level ability):
When you reach third level, choose an elemental damage type (choosing from Fire, Cold, Lightning and Acid): your strikes can now deal that damage type at will. Additionally, your strikes have a reach of 10 feet instead of just 5 when using an elemental damage type, but you must be within 5 feet to inflict a stunning strike. Choose an additional damage type every time you gain a new elemental discipline.

If you choose to use this modification, it pretty much invalidates the "Fangs of the Fire Snake" elemental discipline, since it grants the ranged piece of it to everyone, but gives the 4-elements flavor a bit of a boost. If you're still concerned that the 4-elements monk isn't powerful enough after that change, here's a proposed 7th (is that when the archetype gains another elemental discipline?) level ability (but if you read my rant, you know that I don't think that it's necessary).

Empowered elemental strikes (7th(?) level ability)
You can spend a ki point after you hit with a melee attack roll to empower your strike with elemental energy and roll an additional damage dice of a damage type which you can inflict with the Elemental Strikes ability.

rudy

2016-08-09, 01:01 PM

snip
I take your points well. I still think they need a bit of something, but one of your ideas was very good. I'm considering now making the following changes to Elemental Monk / Monk class in general.

All Monks
* Gain an extra ki every even level, on top of the values shown on the table.
* Stunning strike now costs 2 ki, and can only be used once per turn.

Elemental Monk
* At levels 5, 7, 9, 11, choose earth/fire/air/water. When the monk makes his decision, he receives two benefits. First, he gains the cantrip mold earth/control flames/gust/shape water, respectively based on his choice. Second, his unarmed strikes can now, optionally, deal elemental damage of a kind appropriate to his elemental choice, acid/fire/lightning/cold, though he cannot use Stunning Strike on an attack dealing elemental damage. When dealing elemental damage, the monk can spend 1 ki to extend his reach to 10 ft. for one round.

I think the change to Stunning Strike (borrowed from Zman in this case) is needed because as the class currently is it seems inevitable that the only "good" high level monk combat move is a stun-lock one, which can get boring. The increase in ki pool should balance out that increased cost a bit, but make some of the other ki uses, including the spells of the elemental monk, more competitive, and thus vary up the playstyle.

Thoughts?

ruy343

2016-08-09, 01:10 PM

I do like the idea of not spamming the stunning strike with every attack... Those saving throws just slow down gameplay too much, even when they're not effective.

Also, the four elements strikes don't translate well to damage types in 5e, so you attacking with "water" or "air" is going to be unintentionally OP, since no creatures resist that damage type :P. That's why I used lightning, fire, cold, or acid (though thunder in place of lightning is acceptable in my opinion, since it's a pressure wave). It just sucks that the best damage type to approximate "earth" is "bludgeoning", since that's not a good 4-elements attack - which is why I included acid as a damage type instead.

Also, doubling ki points may have unintended side effects of letting monks use their martial arts powers too often, but I don't think that it'll make the monk overshadow the fighter or rogue in their respective departments. Perhaps increasing the ki cost of some abilities (like the shadow monk's "Darkness") might be appropriate if doubling ki point totals though...

rudy

2016-08-09, 01:19 PM

That's why I used lightning, fire, cold, or acid (though thunder in place of lightning is acceptable in my opinion, since it's a pressure wave).
If you re-read what I wrote you'll see that I did the same as you.

Also, doubling ki points may have unintended side effects of letting monks use their martial arts powers too often, but I don't think that it'll make the monk overshadow the fighter or rogue in their respective departments. Perhaps increasing the ki cost of some abilities (like the shadow monk's "Darkness") might be appropriate if doubling ki point totals though...
It's not doubling. They're getting one more every even level, which means a 50% increase in ki. That being said, do you still have the same concern?

ruy343

2016-08-09, 01:31 PM

Hmmm... with those clarifications, I dunno. It's probably close enough to balanced that it'll work out... I'll have to playtest it...

Foxhound438

2016-08-09, 02:09 PM

I do like the idea, and I may borrow some ideas from it, but certain... elements of it seem too powerful. Like being able to add 1d8 damage every turn.

it does in fact make elements monk too much of a value pick compared to the other subclasses.

To the original topic, what I've always wanted to try is giving the elements monk a way to recharge their points, but make the points they gain usable only on elemental disciplines.

What I thought might work is something like "starting at third level, once per short rest, you can take a moment to regather your energy to power your elemental disciplines. As an action, regain a number of ki points equal to 1d4. The die's size changes as you gain monk levels, as shown on the monk table. Ki points gained this way can only be used to activate your elemental disciplines, and cannot exceed your ki point maximim. Starting at the 11th level, you add your wisdom modifier to the roll."

It's a decent recharge, and has some built-in scaling.

gkathellar

2016-08-09, 02:32 PM

rudy

2016-08-09, 02:36 PM

Centrally, even putting aside Stunning Strike, the issue is that a round spent casting a spell is a round spent not doing your primary schtick (i.e. hitting people in the face). Because of that, the Four Elements monk needs disciplines that are a viable alternative to flurrying, instead of being a strictly inferior way to spend one's action. It can't even be equivalent, as that means you've wasted your archetype getting something you already had.

Rather, it has to be a distinctive and viable way to spend not just your ki, but also your turn. To whit, it has to be a set of actual, worthwhile casting options. If the fix Kryx brought to your attention early in the thread seems too strong at a glance, that's because its casting is actually viable as casting.
That's an oversimplification. There's also the option of having abilities that complement the attack actions (such as Fangs of the Fire Snake) without taking your action, or those that provide buffs, such as stoneskin or fly, or those with great utility, such as the one granting gaseous form. It's also an oversimplification to say that hitting people in the face is going to be better than casting fireball for 4 ki. It really depends on the tactical situation and the layout of the battle.

gkathellar

2016-08-09, 03:01 PM

That's an oversimplification. There's also the option of having abilities that complement the attack actions (such as Fangs of the Fire Snake) without taking your action, or those that provide buffs, such as stoneskin or fly, or those with great utility, such as the one granting gaseous form.

Sure, absolutely, but that's not a majority of the disciplines. Also, see below.

It's also an oversimplification to say that hitting people in the face is going to be better than casting fireball for 4 ki. It really depends on the tactical situation and the layout of the battle.

You may have noticed that I said, "Rather, it has to be a distinctive and viable way to spend not just your ki, but also your turn. To whit, it has to be a set of actual, worthwhile casting options."

As long as the fireball in question is strong enough that it's a good option for situations where it should be a good option, and doesn't consume prohibitive amounts of resources, there's no problem. But if it doesn't meet those criteria, then it's a waste of time, and thus not a good feature.

Citan

2016-08-09, 03:54 PM

I'm seeking to boost the Four Elements monk in a way that is very simple from a game perspective, without introducing a bunch of new stuff, but also makes the class more on par with the other options.

My current thought is to boost the ki pool of the Four Elements monk, perhaps an extra ki every odd level starting at 3rd.

I'm interested to hear opinions on that, or if anyone else has suggestions for simple alterations that bring the class more "up to par" with its alternates.
Hi!

Well, Four Elements is a bit of a complex question.
If you look just at the cost of casting spells, it's very decent!
You can cast 3 5th level spells with your ki pool, a bit shorter than Warlock indeed, but you also gain very powerful martial and defensive features which make you better in many cases.

Consequently, changing the cost of ki cast or the number of ki points could work but would be a touching subject, I would recommend it only if you are really very familiar with 5e.

For me, the main (only?) problem of Four Elements is the ridicule amount of disciplines learned. 2 (one mandatory) at start, 5 only at the end. Make it so that you start with 4 and learn 1 more at each step, finishing with 7 (or maybe even 2 more per step to finish with 10).

Also, keep Water Whip as "before errata", using a bonus action. This opens interesting combinations.

If it is still not enough, allow your Monk to learn a few element-related cantrips (like 1 discipline + 1 cantrip at 6th, 13th and 17th).
This should be enough to enjoy.
That, or wait for my homebrew to come out XD.

Vogonjeltz

2016-08-09, 05:29 PM

The problem you'll face is that no spell is worth the ki cost in comparison to Stunning Strike (1 ki = stun). That option is by far the most efficient and better than any option the four elements monk has.

1 ki for a single target stun that requires:

1) Successful hit on the target (must first beat AC), and must be in melee range

2) Failed Constitution Saving Throw by the target.

So, 1 ki for 2 rolls to stun a single target for 1 round.

Clench of the North Wind:
3 ki, scalable by +1 ki to add +1 targets for:

1) Failed Wisdom Saving Throw by target to Paralyze for 1 round, new saving throw each round (so, effectively one casting is like multiple successive stunning strikes).

Can be done from 60 foot range and potentially lasts 10 rounds.

Paralyzed (Hold Person) is also a better status effect than Stunned (Stunning Strike).

So not only is Clench more ki efficient on a single target at 3+ rounds (each round being actually more valuable than a stunning round anyway), it's also more likely to happen as it doesn't require 2 rolls to take effect.

And it can be scaled up making it even more efficient (the initial 2 ki cost can be spread amongst several targets).

So, strictly speaking, the Four Elements provides access to at least one spell that a better use of ki.

As far as Four elements design goes, it's the primary opportunity to get AoE and ranged damage on the Monk, everything else they do is single target.

rudy

2016-08-09, 05:36 PM

So, 1 ki for 2 rolls to stun a single target for 1 round.
Sorry, but that's not a valid analysis because you don't have to spend the ki until after you have already hit them, after which there is only one roll.

EDIT: I think you're also not accounting for the action economy, in that you're dealing damage with your hit even if they make their save.

Zman

2016-08-09, 05:36 PM

You make a really good point about "competing" with stunning fist. I'll have to seriously consider boosting the cost of that to 2 ki, while giving all monks the extra one ki every other level to balance out that increase. Then it would be easier to make spells competitive. That's a bigger change than I wanted to make, but it may be needed.

Definitely boost the Ki cost of Stunning strike to 2 and limit it to once use per turn, I would also almost by default reduce the Ki cost of Four Elements abilities by one. I'm sure Kryx will agree that the damage the Monk puts out is severely lacking without cheap spammable Stunning Strike and needs some kind of damage boost. I believe Kryx ups the Monk Damage die progression and lets them make an additional Unarmed Strike at 11th, I give them Extra Attack(2) at 11th and give them an ASI at 10th.

rudy

2016-08-09, 05:40 PM

Definitely boost the Ki cost of Stunning strike to 2 and limit it to once use per turn, I would also almost by default reduce the Ki cost of Four Elements abilities by one. I'm sure Kryx will agree that the damage the Monk puts out is severely lacking without cheap spammable Stunning Strike and needs some kind of damage boost. I believe Kryx ups the Monk Damage die progression and lets them make an additional Unarmed Strike at 11th, I give them Extra Attack(2) at 11th and give them an ASI at 10th.
I'm still not convinced on the ASI, but I think I may give monks another Extra attack, but at 15th, not 11th. For two reasons. First, because I think making classes more similar is a bad thing, and I want to preserve the fighter's edge on that. Second, because the Monk already gets cool things at 11th, whereas at 15th they only get Timeless Body, which is thematically cool, but rarely important.

Zman

2016-08-09, 05:52 PM

I'm still not convinced on the ASI, but I think I may give monks another Extra attack, but at 15th, not 11th. For two reasons. First, because I think making classes more similar is a bad thing, and I want to preserve the fighter's edge on that. Second, because the Monk already gets cool things at 11th, whereas at 15th they only get Timeless Body, which is thematically cool, but rarely important.

I recommend 11th level because it is the start of the third tier and most classes are getting a substantial power boost at that level.

rudy

2016-08-09, 05:53 PM

I recommend 11th level because it is the start of the third tier and most classes are getting a substantial power boost at that level.
I do understand your reasons, I promise. It's more important from my perspective to make the classes different.

Vogonjeltz

2016-08-09, 07:25 PM

Sorry, but that's not a valid analysis because you don't have to spend the ki until after you have already hit them, after which there is only one roll.

EDIT: I think you're also not accounting for the action economy, in that you're dealing damage with your hit even if they make their save.

In which case the chraracter is simply incapable of using their ability that round. So, still have to pass 2 rolls.

rudy

2016-08-09, 07:37 PM

In which case the chraracter is simply incapable of using their ability that round. So, still have to pass 2 rolls.
Yes, but "spend 1 ki, then pass two rolls", is significantly different in resource management than "spend 1 ki after passing one roll, then pass another roll"

Dralnu

2016-08-09, 09:15 PM

I'm seeking to boost the Four Elements monk in a way that is very simple from a game perspective, without introducing a bunch of new stuff, but also makes the class more on par with the other options.

My current thought is to boost the ki pool of the Four Elements monk, perhaps an extra ki every odd level starting at 3rd.

I'm interested to hear opinions on that, or if anyone else has suggestions for simple alterations that bring the class more "up to par" with its alternates.

The Four Elements monk has a few problems:

1) All their subclass features cost Ki, which the base Monk already has plenty of uses for. If you're out of Ki then it's like you're not an Elements monk at all. Most subclasses introduce brand new abilities and resources that don't overlap with previous resources, and enhance their base class abilities rather than directly compete with them.
2) The Ki costs for the disciplines are too much, specifically they are all ki cost= spell lvl +1, while the Shadow Monk gets their spells at ki cost = spell lvl. Too often the Monk will be better off using its Ki on Stunning Strike / FoB rather than spending it on disciplines.
3) You don't get a whole lot of options. 1 discipline per milestone, and remember that each one eats up the same resource (ki) while most other subclasses add abilities that aren't tied to the same resource. The Shadow Monk actually knows as many spells at 3rd level as the Elements will at max lvl, which is pretty silly -- and Shadow casts their spells cheaper too.

So the easiest fix would be:

1) Lower the ki cost of each ability by 1.
2) Add the EE elemental cantrips for free, one per milestone, so they still get to have Elemental flavor at all times.
3) Let them learn an additional discipline each milestone.
4) Consider letting them learn some of the appropriate elemental spells from EE as disciplines.

Those are all minor tweaks without going too deep.

Kryx

2016-08-10, 05:18 AM

1 ki for a single target stun that requires:

1) Successful hit on the target (must first beat AC), and must be in melee range

2) Failed Constitution Saving Throw by the target.
A monk has 4 attacks with 1 ki at level 5. That's 4 opportunities to hit an equivalent level CR enemy. If we take a normal hit chance of ~60% then that's a 97.44% chance of getting at least 1 chance to stun.

In actual play it's 1 ki = con save or stunned. Likely used multiple times a round if the enemy succeeds.

I don't understand why monk uses ki cost = spell level for shadow. They have a balanced system to give costs for spells to points and instead of using that they created their own system for monk. It makes no sense.
The DMG point system does it much better imo. 2nd level spells aren't worth double 1st level spells. DMG makes those cost 3 instead of 2. 3rd level spells are more powerful and those cost 5. It all works really well. IMO it's much easier to adapt that system then try to make a broken system (cost = spell level) work.

DivisibleByZero

2016-08-10, 07:47 AM

I haven't read through the thread, but in my opinion the simplest way to "fix" 4em is to give them +Wis mod to their ki pool.

jleonardwv

2016-08-10, 08:34 AM

Seems to me after reading other posts that the easiest fix would be:

1. One extra elemental cantrip per milestone (6th, 11th, 17th)
2. One extra discipline per milestone
3. Use ki cost for spells per DMG p. 288
4. Expand list of available cantrips/disciplines choosing from elemental effects similar to an earlier post in this thread

This would require a modification of the maximum ki points per spell to allow up to the number of points to cast 2nd level spells at 6th, 3rd level spells at 11th and 4th level spells at 17th.

Moreplovac

2016-08-10, 08:39 AM

Aditional ki points equal to your CON modifier? It makes sense that you're more attuned if you're more healthier IMO.

Easy_Lee

2016-08-10, 08:49 AM

IMO, the simplest fix would be to lower the cost of powers. Reduce all costs by one and you have it closer to the shadow monk whereas spell level = ki points.

I'm not sure that is the best fix, but that's the easiest

I agree with this. It's simple, but fairly effective.

I do prefer the idea of an elements monk whose abilities enhance existing monk features, rather than replacing them. And, just me personally, I feel like elements monks should pick just one element. However, for general play, elements monk abilities cost one more ki than they should when compared with shadow monk spells.

Edit: as far as the whole DM guide spell points thing, here's the trouble: elements monks don't get to choose their spells.

If elements monks were just "choose an elemental spell (whatever that means) from the wizard spell list and you can cast it for Ki cost according to this table," then yeah, I'd use the DMG. But for a fixed, non-negotiable option, I feel that there needs to be some benefit offered for the lack of versatility.

For example, dragon sorcerers gain a flight speed. They don't have to spend spell points to do that, even though it's equivalent to fly. That's an example of a fixed feature having some benefit over a spell, since actual spell slots offer variery.

DivisibleByZero

2016-08-10, 09:00 AM

Someone said earlier that the 4em doesn't have the blasting power of a sorc. The thing is, he isn't supposed to.
He's a monk that can toss a spell here or there.
There's no need to make sweeping changes.
Increasing his Ki pool very slightly is really all that's needed.
Maybe allow him to choose two spells per tier rather than one if you want, but anything beyond that and a little more Ki is overkill.
Hes a monk that can toss a spell here and there. He isn't a caster. If you want a caster that can melee, there are other options. Heck, a vanilla wizard with a non-dumped Str or Dex can do it.

Vogonjeltz

2016-08-10, 09:10 PM

Yes, but "spend 1 ki, then pass two rolls", is significantly different in resource management than "spend 1 ki after passing one roll, then pass another roll"

If the goal is to incapacitate an enemy via a status effect, there's no meaningful difference to the player or their party. They have to pass the two bars to achieve the goal.

A monk has 4 attacks with 1 ki at level 5. That's 4 opportunities to hit an equivalent level CR enemy. If we take a normal hit chance of ~60% then that's a 97.44% chance of getting at least 1 chance to stun.

In actual play it's 1 ki = con save or stunned. Likely used multiple times a round if the enemy succeeds.

I don't understand why monk uses ki cost = spell level for shadow. They have a balanced system to give costs for spells to points and instead of using that they created their own system for monk. It makes no sense.
The DMG point system does it much better imo. 2nd level spells aren't worth double 1st level spells. DMG makes those cost 3 instead of 2. 3rd level spells are more powerful and those cost 5. It all works really well. IMO it's much easier to adapt that system then try to make a broken system (cost = spell level) work.

Getting 4 attacks would require spending a ki for flurry of blows, then another ki for each stunning strike attempt on a successful hit. If you're hitting twice, and average 2 ki per stun that's effectively 3 ki to achieve the goal.

And the end effect (stunned) is inferior to that of hold person (paralyzed) which auto-crits hits from 5 feet. So if clench is successful, any future round almost doubles the attack output of the Monks party.

As for the lower cost for Shadow, I'd posit it's because none of the spells causes harm. Shadow is all about being stealthy, not combat.

The ki cost for Four Elements spells is appropriate if we examine the actual damage possible, Baseline: 1 ki = +1 unarmed strike attack from flurry of blows.

@3rd level (when four elements comes online) that's worth 1d4+str/dex mod damage or 2.5 + str/dexmod
2 ki gets you 3d10 (16.5) ranged attack + status effect. 1/2 damage (8.25) no effect on save.
It's better than the flurry attack (+1.5 damage) and it doesn't have to be spaced out across 2 turns, giving superior burst damage capability, it also has the ability to be scaled up (3 ki nets 4d10 damage at 3rd level).

Sigreid

2016-08-11, 11:21 PM

Maybe give them a couple of relatively minor elemental powers that don't use Ki. Maybe pick an absorb elements that is always on and can be shifted after meditation at a short rest or something like that. Likewise things like Gust of Wind or Control Flame might at will might give them some of the coolness and not too powerful abilities that could be used in creative and effective ways.

Just "thinking out loud" so to speak.

Finlam

2016-08-12, 09:24 AM

A monk has 4 attacks with 1 ki at level 5. That's 4 opportunities to hit an equivalent level CR enemy. If we take a normal hit chance of ~60% then that's a 97.44% chance of getting at least 1 chance to stun.

In actual play it's 1 ki = con save or stunned. Likely used multiple times a round if the enemy succeeds.

I don't understand why monk uses ki cost = spell level for shadow. They have a balanced system to give costs for spells to points and instead of using that they created their own system for monk. It makes no sense.
The DMG point system does it much better imo. 2nd level spells aren't worth double 1st level spells. DMG makes those cost 3 instead of 2. 3rd level spells are more powerful and those cost 5. It all works really well. IMO it's much easier to adapt that system then try to make a broken system (cost = spell level) work.

Just to enrich the discussion a bit, let's extend that math: assume a 60% hit rate and a 48% success rate on the stun (taken from the link in your signature).

Let's use a stun focused ki-management strategy, using the following constraints:

1) We expend ki on every hit until we get a successful stun
2) We only expend ki on a flurry if we did not get a successful stun in the first two hits

That leaves us with the following possibilities:
1) No stun delivered
2) Stun success during first 2 attacks
3) Stun success during last 2 attacks

This breaks down to the following math

Stats for two attacks
num of hits - 0 kip(at least one attack landed)p(num hits)p(at least one stun given all attacks hit)p(successful stun)ki spent on stunWeighted ki expeniture<-p(num hits)*ki cost
000.160000
10.60.60.2880.172810.6
20.840.240.72960.17510420.48
totals10.3479041.08

In our first two attacks our monk has a 35% chance to land one stun by expending 1.08 ki on average. Not very good odds at all, and certainly not enough to rely on from a tactics point of view. Let's check out what happens when our monk ups his ki expenditure to use flurry.

Stats for flurry
num of hits - 1 ki (flurry attacks)p(at least one attack landed)p(num hits)p(at least one stun given all attacks hit)p(successful stun)ki spent
000.16001<-Flurry ki expenditure1
10.60.60.2880.172810.6
20.840.240.72960.17510420.48
totals10.3479042.08

p(stun success) = p(success stun: first two hits) + p(stun failure: first two hits)*p(success stun: flurry)
p(stun success)= 0.347904 + 0.2268668068 = 0.5747708068
57.47708068 percent chance of successful stun

avg ki expended= avg ki(two hits)+p(stun failure: first two hits)*(avg ki(two hits) +1)
avg ki expended= 1.08 + 1.35635968 = 2.43635968
2.43635968 Average ki expended per round to stun target

So a monk spends 2.4 ki a round for a 57.5% chance of success given a 60% hit rate and given that targets fail the save 48% of the time. It should be noted that these hit rate and success estimates are overly generous as monks are the most MAD class in 5e and will usually have either a hit rate or spell save that is significantly bellow these numbers for most of their adventuring career.

This means that at level 10 the monk, on average, can attempt stuns for 4 rounds and will complete successful stuns in about 2 or 3 of them. Once those ~4 rounds are up, he is basically a crappy version of a fighter with no damage output and no means of meaningfully contributing to combat. This also implies that the monk only cares about stunning which makes nearly all of his other combat abilities useless as they serve only to drain his far too limited ki pool even faster, reducing the entire class to a single, mobile, but crappy stun effect with a minor amount of extra damage.

It's not even a comparison to something like hold person which imparts a better status effect (paralyzed vs stunned) has a higher rate of the target failing the saving throw (56% vs 48%) doesn't require the originator (the caster) to be in melee, and can be up-scaled to affect multiple targets.

In short, the monk class has one defining ability around which the class' tactical role is based ... and it's definitively outshined by a second level spell.

[EDIT]
To bring the discussion back on topic. The ki cost does need to be lowered for the four elements to work at all, the ki cost for a stunning strike does not need to be raised. Making other alternatives more viable for the monk is a good solution, making passable class features more costly is not a good solution.
[EDIT 2]
I was mistaken about the spell level, ty Ffflam for pointing that out. *Corrected

Fflewddur Fflam

2016-08-12, 10:46 AM

It's not even a comparison to something like hold person which imparts a better status effect (paralyzed vs stunned) has a higher rate of the target failing the saving throw (56% vs 48%) doesn't require the originator (the caster) to be in melee, and can be up-scaled to affect multiple targets.

In short, the monk class has one defining ability around which the class' tactical role is based ... and it's definitively outshined by a first level spell.

WRONG.
1. Hold Person is a 2nd level spell, not first.
2. Hold Person is limited to just humanoids. Stunning Strike has no such restriction, making stunning strike FAR more applicable.
3. A monk could conceivably stun four different creatures in a round via flurry of blows, that would cost you a 5th level slot of Hold Person.
4. Hold Person allows two saves before it's your turn again, once when you cast it, and once on the target's turn. Stunning Strike only allows one save when you hit with it and the creature is stunned until the end of your next turn. Stunning strike has a far greater chance of lasting until your turn because of this.

Finlam

2016-08-12, 11:17 AM

WRONG.
1. Hold Person is a 2nd level spell, not first.
2. Hold Person is limited to just humanoids. Stunning Strike has no such restriction, making stunning strike FAR more applicable.
3. A monk could conceivably stun four different creatures in a round via flurry of blows, that would cost you a 5th level slot of Hold Person.
4. Hold Person allows two saves before it's your turn again, once when you cast it, and once on the target's turn. Stunning Strike only allows one save when you hit with it and the creature is stunned until the end of your next turn. Stunning strike has a far greater chance of lasting until your turn because of this.

1. My bad on the spell level.

2. A limit to only humanoids is hardly a limit at all. The spell allows multiple for multiple targets, imposes a better status effect, can be used at range, potentially (usually in the case of multiple targets) has a duration longer than one round, and can be upscalled as needed by the situation. Even with the one minor advantage of affecting everything that's not explicitly immune to stun, no sane person would choose a stunning strike over a hold person.

3. That situation has a 0.687970713% (less than 1%) chance of ever happening (I'm being generous here). That's not even worth discussing.

4. Lasting until your turn is irrelevant. The goal is to set up your party to be in the best possible position. The paralyzed status effect does this far better than stun as it grants us auto crits to every character willing to get in melee range and can be cast without putting your fragile self in melee range (important since monks have about the same HP as a back-row caster).

The fact the monk class' fundamental tactical ability is even comparable to a single level two spell that appears on nearly every spell list is a problem. Raising the ki cost for the stunning strike ability is not a solution to the problem. If you want a monk variant to be playable, you need to allow for low ki cost alternatives (in this case lowering the cost on the elemental monk spells) to encourage players to move away from being a one trick pony. Making the spells cost simply (spell level) of ki points is a pretty good step in the right direction.

rudy

2016-08-12, 11:25 AM

The fact the monk class' fundamental tactical ability is even comparable to a single level two spell that appears on nearly every spell list is a problem. Raising the ki cost for the stunning strike ability is not a solution to the problem. If you want a monk variant to be playable, you need to allow for low ki cost alternatives (in this case lowering the cost on the elemental monk spells) to encourage players to move away from being a one trick pony. Making the spells cost simply (spell level) of ki points is a pretty good step in the right direction.

I'm fairly sure that combining an increase in the ki cost of stunning strike to 2, along with increasing the ki pool size of the monk, accomplishes the same goal with less complexity.

BladeWing81

2016-08-12, 12:37 PM

the Best fix for the monks ki problem is to add Ki points from your WIS modifier, at lvl 2 you'd probably get 5 ki points (2 from lvl and 3 from 16 Wis) after that, by the time you get 20 WIS you'll have 5 extra Ki points. This idea is better than the extra ki per odd lvl because it becomes a little more viable to multiclass because you're not depending on monk levels to get more ki.

Another fix would be to add some of the ideas from the sun soul monk, especially the radiant sun bolts class features, you can easily copy and change them up by adding some extra abilities depending on the element, off the top of my head something like:
searing Fire Strike: add extra ki to add 2d6 fire on each hit.
Pushing water Strike: add extra ki to add 1d6 force/water and push up to 15 feet on a hit.
punishing earth strike: add extra ki to add 1d6 and makes a CON save or is incapacitated.
invisible air strike: add extra ki to add 1d6 and makes a STR check or be prone.
the lvl 6 and 11 feature could be an area of effect with an elemental twist and the final one could be a powerful elemental effect akin to the stoneskin for the earth element, flight for air and so-on.

obviously these Ideas might be to powerful but the sun soul monk seems to be the perfect template to improve on the elemental monk subclass.

Fflewddur Fflam

2016-08-12, 02:29 PM

2. A limit to only humanoids is hardly a limit at all.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.

How many non-humanoids are there in the Monster Manual? A limit on humanoids is hardly a limit at all. Sure.

Easy_Lee

2016-08-12, 02:31 PM

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.

How many non-humanoids are there in the Monster Manual? A limit on humanoids is hardly a limit at all. Sure.

+1. Stunning Strike has a shorter duration, but a lesser cost, allows fewer saves, can be attempted multiple times per round, has no concentration cost, and affects all creature types. It's significantly better.

Z3ro

2016-08-12, 02:40 PM

Finlam

2016-08-12, 02:53 PM

+1. Stunning Strike has a shorter duration, but a lesser cost, allows fewer saves, can be attempted multiple times per round, has no concentration cost, and affects all creature types. It's significantly better.

It can be attempted multiple times per round for all of about 3 rounds until the monk is in double digit territory, at which point even half casters could throw out hold-person all day long and get entire groups of enemies with it, all without placing themselves in melee. On top of that, when the other classes attempt similar tactics (hold person) for four rounds, they're not out of resources and can still contribute to combat. A monk can pump that stun all day long for about 4 rounds before he's out and is useless to the party. It's only significantly better when the monk is high level and his success rate is boosted from the ASIs, and he now has the ki to support 3 attempts per round. Before hitting that critical mass it's an OK ability, but the casters throwing out HP are consistently affecting more enemies and stunning them for longer, all while avoiding a punishing melee fight. It really isn't a comparison: before high level SS is just OK and HP will consistently outshine it, after high level play it's just a useful ability that doesn't compare to the options afforded to other classes.

Here's the simple fix that we used at my table that's worked really well:

Change the action on Fangs of the Fire Snake and Fist of Unbroken air from action to bonus action.

Reduce the ki cost to 0, while reducing the damage to 1d10.

That's it; you're done. What this basically allows you to do is use two basic but iconic abilities at will, without draining ki. They don't do much damage (less than an average unarmed strike by level 5) unless you invest ki, but they do provide status effects. Plus the psychology of what your character is "supposed" to be is much better represented; you use the elements to fight, like, all the time.

If this isn't enough, reduce the spell costs by 1 ki as well, to bring them in line with shadow monk. Also simple, also fun.

I like this change.

Easy_Lee

2016-08-12, 03:00 PM

before high level SS is just OK and HP will consistently outshine it, after high level play it's just a useful ability that doesn't compare to the options afforded to other classes.

Before high levels, Monk damage is not far from fighter damage. And SS can do what hold monster does before casters even get hold monster.

Consider the multiple saves allowed for hold monster, and calculate the likelihood that a given target will be stunned for more than one turn, or even for its first turn. That likelihood is not very high.

Meanwhile, the Monk at high levels can eat through legendary resistance in one round. No boss monster will last long against a standard party attacking it while it's stunned.

Zman

2016-08-12, 03:02 PM

Hold person is a spell and requires an action, Stunning Strike is tied to an attack that deals damage and is merely part of an action that likely has three more attacks just like it and can be spammed multiple times in one round.

You can't compare Hold Person to Stunning Strike without accounting for the other aspects of the action that triggers it. Stunning Strike accompanies multiple attacks where Hold Person has a range but takes an entire action for a save or nothing spell.

Before high levels, Monk damage is not far from fighter damage. And SS can do what hold monster does before casters even get hold monster.

Consider the multiple saves allowed for hold monster, and calculate the likelihood that a given target will be stunned for more than one turn, or even for its first turn. That likelihood is not very high.

Meanwhile, the Monk at high levels can eat through legendary resistance in one round. No boss monster will last long against a standard party attacking it while it's stunned.

Not quite true, only when the Monk is blowing Ki for Flurry every round does he keep up with most good Fighters till 10th level and even falls behind Flurrying after 11th.

SS definitely can, and hen tied to multiple attacks it is too good for the cost of 1 Ki. I dislike how stunlocking becomes the Monks main stchick by 11th+. I like giving them Extra Attack(2) at 11th, making SS only once per turn and cost 2 Ki.

Finlam

2016-08-12, 03:08 PM

Before high levels, Monk damage is not far from fighter damage. And SS can do what hold monster does before casters even get hold monster.

Consider the multiple saves allowed for hold monster, and calculate the likelihood that a given target will be stunned for more than one turn, or even for its first turn. That likelihood is not very high.

According to Kryx's guide the likelihood is 31.36% of the target losing two turns from a single HP, compared to 0.0% from a single SS. As per the earlier post we can get a SS off about 57% of the time at an average cost of 2.4 ki per round. So in a single round we spend 2-3 ki and have a 57% chance to stun the target. HP is one spell that has a 56% chance of paralyzing the target from range (the same as if we flurried and tried to stun for an entire round), with the added bonus that the target has a good chance to be paralyzed for longer than one round. The math is pretty consistent with my play experience.

Zman

2016-08-12, 03:20 PM

According to Kryx's guide the likelihood is 31.36% of the target losing two turns from a single HP, compared to 0.0% from a single SS. As per the earlier post we can get a SS off about 57% of the time at an average cost of 2.4 ki per round. So in a single round we spend 2-3 ki and have a 57% chance to stun the target. HP is one spell that has a 56% chance of paralyzing the target from range (the same as if we flurried and tried to stun for an entire round), with the added bonus that the target has a good chance to be paralyzed for longer than one round. The math is pretty consistent with my play experience.

And all the caster did was cast a spell, the Monk also tossed out 3-4 Attacks dealing damage. The Monk spends resources to adds potentially a powerful rider to their melee attacks, the caster spends their entire action on a save or suck. It lasts until the end of the Monks Next turn giving it and the whole party advantage for a whole turn, while Hold person will have granted a second saving through by the time the caster is up again. With initiative this means that there are many times where the target will have two Hold Person Saves, one at cast, one at the end of their turn, to snap out of it. That can very well be the next initiative tick and gives two saves to waste the spell.

Easy_Lee

2016-08-12, 03:38 PM

And all the caster did was cast a spell, the Monk also tossed out 3-4 Attacks dealing damage. The Monk spends resources to adds potentially a powerful rider to their melee attacks, the caster spends their entire action on a save or suck. It lasts until the end of the Monks Next turn giving it and the whole party advantage for a whole turn, while Hold person will have granted a second saving through by the time the caster is up again. With initiative this means that there are many times where the target will have two Hold Person Saves, one at cast, one at the end of their turn, to snap out of it. That can very well be the next initiative tick and gives two saves to waste the spell.

Additionally, based on elemental monk, spell slot to ki conversion is about 3 ki for a level 2 spell. Stunning strike costs 1/3rd of that, can be used multiple times per round, and has no concentration limit, in addition to coming as part of damage. Bear in mind that you attempt stunning strike on a hit, not on an attack. I think some of the math in this thread assumes that monks have to declare an attack as a stunning strike before they know if the attack hits. According to the text: "When you hit another creature with a melee weapon attack, you can spend 1 ki point to attempt a stunning strike."

rudy

2016-08-12, 03:42 PM

While I understand the conversation has moved beyond just my concerns, I think I've decided to do:

* Stunning Strike is 2 ki, once per round max.
* Monks get an extra ki every even level (for a total of 30 ki at 20th level)
* Elemental monks get the flavorful elemental cantrips, as well as the ability to deal elemental damage in place of bludgeoning with their unarmed strikes.

Zman

2016-08-12, 03:48 PM

Additionally, based on elemental monk, spell slot to ki conversion is about 3 ki for a level 2 spell. Stunning strike costs 1/3rd of that, can be used multiple times per round, and has no concentration limit, in addition to coming as part of damage. Bear in mind that you attempt stunning strike on a hit, not on an attack. I think some of the math in this thread assumes that monks have to declare an attack as a stunning strike before they know if the attack hits. According to the text: "When you hit another creature with a melee weapon attack, you can spend 1 ki point to attempt a stunning strike."

Yep, I agree completely.

While I understand the conversation has moved beyond just my concerns, I think I've decided to do:

* Stunning Strike is 2 ki, once per round max.
* Monks get an extra ki every even level (for a total of 30 ki at 20th level)
* Elemental monks get the flavorful elemental cantrips, as well as the ability to deal elemental damage in place of bludgeoning with their unarmed strikes.

I definitely lobby for considering Extra Attack(2) at 11th level. Monk are competent damage dealiers before level 11, but then they nearly have reached their ceilings while other classes receive substantial bumps at 11th making it an entirely new tier. It really give the monk a much needed boost. Check out the spreadsheet Monk tab in my signature and compare it to the Figther or Paladin Tabs etc.

rudy

2016-08-12, 03:52 PM

I definitely lobby for considering Extra Attack(2) at 11th level. Monk are competent damage dealiers before level 11, but then they nearly have reached their ceilings while other classes receive substantial bumps at 11th making it an entirely new tier. It really give the monk a much needed boost. Check out the spreadsheet Monk tab in my signature and compare it to the Figther or Paladin Tabs etc.
While I can appreciate the work you put into that, I'm not seeing how you're accounting for things like movement, and very versatile defenses. I'm not going to rehash the discussions we've had on DPR, I'll merely state that I'm okay with the Monk falling behind in DPR, especially compared to the Fighter. I am considering giving them Extra Attack (2), but not until level 15, because that's a boring level for them, and it lets the Fighter shine a bit more.

Easy_Lee

2016-08-12, 03:53 PM

rudy

2016-08-12, 03:56 PM

Monks already kind of have extra attack via flurry of blows. One option might be to reduce the cost of flurry of blows to 0 at some point.
That's actually a really flavorful idea as the level 15 ability. At first thought I'm worried that it would be too powerful, but I guess that's only likely to be true if there is a LOT of battle without rest.

Finlam

2016-08-12, 03:59 PM

And all the caster did was cast a spell, the Monk also tossed out 3-4 Attacks dealing damage. The Monk spends resources to adds potentially a powerful rider to their melee attacks, the caster spends their entire action on a save or suck. It lasts until the end of the Monks Next turn giving it and the whole party advantage for a whole turn, while Hold person will have granted a second saving through by the time the caster is up again. With initiative this means that there are many times where the target will have two Hold Person Saves, one at cast, one at the end of their turn, to snap out of it. That can very well be the next initiative tick and gives two saves to waste the spell.
The paltry damage from delivering the SS is waaaaay outclassed by the extra damage from every melee attack resulting in a crit (thanks to the paralyzed status effect).

Hold person does grant more saves, with a significantly higher rate of save failure. The monk also fails to hit way about as often as targets of hp fail their initial save. The additional saves are more than mitigated by the ability to cast it a higher level to affect more targets, SS lacks this versatility entirely and drains comparatively more resources to affect the same number of targets.

Lastly, if HP does fall, the caster is out a single action. If SS fails, the monk is out a very significant amount of ki and is now stuck in melee, adjacent to at least one enemy, with the same total hp as the caster.

At the end of the day, there's less risk and more potential upside for HP than SS.

rudy

2016-08-12, 04:02 PM

Easy_Lee

2016-08-12, 04:07 PM

Zman

2016-08-12, 04:10 PM

The paltry damage from delivering the SS is waaaaay outclassed by the extra damage from every melee attack resulting in a crit (thanks to the paralyzed status effect).Assuming these party members get to go before the enemy gets his second chance at a save.

Hold person does grant more saves, with a significantly higher rate of save failure.True The monk also fails to hit way about as often as targets of hp fail their initial save.Failing to hit doesn't matter as SS only triggers on a hit, I am referring to the Two Action attacks and one or two Bonus action attacks which the caster does not have a parallel to. The additional saves are more than mitigated by the ability to cast it a higher level to affect more targetsWhat about the opportunity cost of those spell slots?, SS lacks this versatility entirely and drains comparatively more resources to affect the same number of targetsSure, but SS is better at repeatedly locking down a single target. HP is all or none, SS has up to four chances, well 2.6 Chances per turn factoring to hit. Plus, SS lasts for a fixed full round timer, no guarentee on HP..

Lastly, if HP does fall, the caster is out a single action. If SS fails, the monk is out a very significant amount of ki and is now stuck in melee, adjacent to at least one enemy, with the same total hp as the caster.The Monk also make a full round of attacks.

At the end of the day, there's less risk and more potential upside for HP than SS.All or none vs full round of attacks plus potential strong Rider. All or none sounds like more risk than normal action plus potential rider to me.

See the blue.

Zman

2016-08-12, 04:18 PM

While I can appreciate the work you put into that, I'm not seeing how you're accounting for things like movement, and very versatile defenses. I'm not going to rehash the discussions we've had on DPR, I'll merely state that I'm okay with the Monk falling behind in DPR, especially compared to the Fighter. I am considering giving them Extra Attack (2), but not until level 15, because that's a boring level for them, and it lets the Fighter shine a bit more.

I don't need to account for those things nor would I want to, I am talking about power tiers in the game. For the first 10 levels of the game the Monk does competent damage, after level 10 due to poor class design the monk falls behind the game in power. What ability do they get at level 11 that steps them up a tier in power, as far as I can see, nothing. My suggestion maintains a bump in damage at Tier 3 like every other class in the game receives in power which keeps the monk consistent with its pre level 11 design from levels 11-17+. If you are considering it, I ask why level 15, it feel arbitrary and late and IMO filling a boring level with an ability they should have had four levels earlier when they fell behind isn't enough.

Citan

2016-08-12, 04:20 PM

See the blue.
I second every "blue" comment in previous post.
Additionally, the point about Monk's "missing as often as people fail saving throw" is moot.
Beyond the fact that a Monk activates Stunning Strike on hit, hence limiting loss, I guess Subproject54 meant that the Monk may not actually land its max number of potential attacks.

Well, that's true in itself. But, the big difference between Monk and a caster is that the Monk gets an extremely wide array of options to gain advantage/bonus on attack rolls, either alone or with ally's help (Wolf Barb / Bless / Bardic Inspiration / Faerie Fire / Command / Shove action / etc), whereas a caster has very limited ways to affect an enemy's saving throw chance: basically have Lucky feat, be a Divination Wizard, an 10+ Eldricht Knight or 9+ Arcane Trickster (with requirements) or a Sorcerer (Wild Magic + Heightened).

So, in actual play, it's much easier to count on the Monk hitting (at least dealing damage) than on the caster succeeding on inflicting condition by save or suck spell. Meaning that, if you just consider probability of action efficiency for the whole turn, Monk wins with a good margin since, worst case, he at least dealt damage, while a caster wasted his slot and cannot even get another chance (only one spell per turn).

rudy

2016-08-12, 04:52 PM

I don't need to account for those things nor would I want to, I am talking about power tiers in the game.
We will continue to agree to disagree, then, because I think there is much more to evaluating a class than DPR. Especially if your games consist of more than just combat. I generally want the Fighter to be the top of sustained DPR, because they have relatively little functionality outside of it.

If you are considering it, I ask why level 15, it feel arbitrary and late and IMO filling a boring level with an ability they should have had four levels earlier when they fell behind isn't enough.
No reason more than they don't get anything of interest at level 15, while level 11 already has a useful ability of some kind.

Zman

2016-08-12, 05:21 PM

We will continue to agree to disagree, then, because I think there is much more to evaluating a class than DPR. Especially if your games consist of more than just combat. I generally want the Fighter to be the top of sustained DPR, because they have relatively little functionality outside of it.

No reason more than they don't get anything of interest at level 15, while level 11 already has a useful ability of some kind.

Of course there is more to evaluating a class than DPR, but what about maintaining the rough comparison of DPR between Fighter and Monk that exists levels 1-10 through levels 11-19 do you disagree with. Why is it ok that the Monk suddenly stops becoming competent at dealing damage after 11th level as the game leaves him behind, why is that ok?

11th level is the start of a power tier, if you are going to give a class something that has significant power, ie a +25-33% increase in damage, that is the place to do it. If you acknowledge the Monk falls behind at 11th level and wait to give them the boost that brings them back to a spot the should be, waiting to 15th level is unnecessarily punitive.

rudy

2016-08-12, 05:32 PM

Of course there is more to evaluating a class than DPR, but what about maintaining the rough comparison of DPR between Fighter and Monk that exists levels 1-10 through levels 11-19 do you disagree with. Why is it ok that the Monk suddenly stops becoming competent at dealing damage after 11th level as the game leaves him behind, why is that ok?
It's okay because the monk starts getting a lot of flavorful and cool abilities and defenses that the Fighter does not. The fighter *should* start outstripping the Monk in DPR in mid to high levels because the fighter has a lot less going on outside of DPR.

For just one simple example, the shadow monk gets invisibility at will in dim light at that level. That's not something you can account for in simple DPR calculations, and represents extreme utility in both combat and non-combat situations.

Finlam

2016-08-12, 07:50 PM

See the blue.

The point about the monk accuracy is that he only has a 57% chance of delivering even a single SS in a round, the same chance that HP has for the target to fall the the save. There's plenty more to be said on this topic and if you want we can continue this discussion in another thread. This one's been detailed enough...

To be back on topic though: Ruby, I think your changes are good and you are correct that monks are currently stuck as one trick stun ponies. I think adding some at will options and making non-stun options comparatively cheap will go a long way toward encouraging more dynamic player behavior.

Vogonjeltz

2016-08-12, 08:11 PM

In short, the monk class has one defining ability around which the class' tactical role is based ... and it's definitively outshined by a first level spell.

It's a 2nd level spell. But other than that, yes, getting Hold Person from Four Elements is an upgrade on their standard capability.

Likewise things like Gust of Wind

You mean, you'd change: "Rush of the Gale Spirits. You can spend 2 ki points to cast gust of wind." (PHB 81) to cost no ki? It's a pretty powerful control spell effectively giving the Monk multiple shove attempts each round it's active. No Ki cost would be like giving the Monk Spell Mastery at level 3. i.e. Totally imbalanced.

allows fewer saves,

No it doesn't, it's 1 save per attempt and it only lasts 1 round. Hold Person is also 1 save per round, but it lasts more rounds making it more efficient with an equal number of saves per round. That's not "more saves", it's a constant number of saves per duration.

That it can only (at best) impact a single creature per attempt, requires melee range, works for only a single round if effective, provides an inferior status effect all combine to make it unequivocally worse in every respect but the one (creature type applicability).

If the enemy type is humanoid, hold person is always the better choice, always.

4. Hold Person allows two saves before it's your turn again, once when you cast it, and once on the target's turn. Stunning Strike only allows one save when you hit with it and the creature is stunned until the end of your next turn. Stunning strike has a far greater chance of lasting until your turn because of this.

This doesn't account for the other players in the intervening time. Given that all their attack hits are automatic criticals, it's unlikely that the subject gets a second save.

If the monk is concerned about making sure they get at least one round of attacks off themselves (as opposed to making sure their teammates do) they could avoid this issue entirely by using the Ready action to cast it as a reaction after the targets turn.

Hold person is a spell and requires an action, Stunning Strike is tied to an attack that deals damage and is merely part of an action that likely has three more attacks just like it and can be spammed multiple times in one round.

You can't compare Hold Person to Stunning Strike without accounting for the other aspects of the action that triggers it. Stunning Strike accompanies multiple attacks where Hold Person has a range but takes an entire action for a save or nothing spell.

It's a question of the efficiency of the ki being used.

Stunning strike is 1 ki for, at best, 1 round of advantage on an enemy. There's a zero percent chance of stunning strike lasting 2 turns.

Clench is 3 ki for, at best, 10 rounds of advantage attacks where hits are crits. Each round of clench effectively doubles the damage output of the Monk against the target (to say nothing of teammates with sneak attack or divine smite).

Paralysis is just so much better than Stunning that it's well worth the up front +2 ki cost.

Zman

2016-08-12, 08:32 PM

It's okay because the monk starts getting a lot of flavorful and cool abilities and defenses that the Fighter does not. The fighter *should* start outstripping the Monk in DPR in mid to high levels because the fighter has a lot less going on outside of DPR.

For just one simple example, the shadow monk gets invisibility at will in dim light at that level. That's not something you can account for in simple DPR calculations, and represents extreme utility in both combat and non-combat situations.

The Fighter is already outpacing the Monk, the Monk stays relevant with Ki expenditure vs the Fighter's at will damage, I didn't factor in Action Surge, Superiority Dice, Improved Crit or EK. The extra attack at 11th still means the Fighter outpaces the Monk, but it isn't as stark.

Four Elements gets Fly, Fireball, Stoneskin. Great spells, for a character entering the second tier, not third.
Shadow gets limited at will Invisibility, has some stellar OOC uses, but isnt a raw power increase.
Open Hand gets long duration Sactuary. Cool, but not a new tier of power.

I mean most competent DPR classes are getting around a 33-50% increase in damage and the Monk as a competent damage class gets..... Cool tricks that Casters have emulated since 1st, 3rd, 5th, and 7th level respectively.

We are told 11th level marks a big increase in power where classes enter the home stretch, damage remains fairly constant, and characters are powerful. What is the Monk getting that marks their power increase besides some at will long for action low level spells or some spells a Wizard has been casting for four to six levels??

The point about the monk accuracy is that he only has a 57% chance of delivering even a single SS in a round, the same chance that HP has for the target to fall the the save. There's plenty more to be said on this topic and if you want we can continue this discussion in another thread. This one's been detailed enough...

To be back on topic though: Ruby, I think your changes are good and you are correct that monks are currently stuck as one trick stun ponies. I think adding some at will options and making non-stun options comparatively cheap will go a long way toward encouraging more dynamic player behavior.

Not going to respond to the rest? The point is you've been grossly misrepresenting the reality of the comparison.

Finlam

2016-08-13, 05:52 AM

Not going to respond to the rest? The point is you've been grossly misrepresenting the reality of the comparison.

You should really read the previous post by Vogonjeltz. Like I said, there's a lot more to be to be said on the topic, but if you want to continue this discussion, it should be moved to another thread. You keep bringing up the monk dealing damage as though it's an advantage of SS 4 hits from a monk will never outpace the damage from free crits for the party. HP has a better success rate than SS (proven). HP doesn't put the caster in the line of fire where if he fails he's going unconscious. HP can be scaled as needed, it can last for multiple rounds, and it is more resource efficient. The comparison is still spot on and no sane person would take SS over HP, except in the sole circumstance that you have to because you're fighting non-humanoids.

[EDIT]
Autocorrect added some interesting vocabulary...it's fixed now.

Zalabim

2016-08-13, 08:44 AM

Here's the simple fix that we used at my table that's worked really well:

Change the action on Fangs of the Fire Snake and Fist of Unbroken air from action to bonus action.

Reduce the ki cost to 0, while reducing the damage to 1d10.

That's it; you're done. What this basically allows you to do is use two basic but iconic abilities at will, without draining ki. They don't do much damage (less than an average unarmed strike by level 5) unless you invest ki, but they do provide status effects. Plus the psychology of what your character is "supposed" to be is much better represented; you use the elements to fight, like, all the time.

If this isn't enough, reduce the spell costs by 1 ki as well, to bring them in line with shadow monk. Also simple, also fun.

I really like how simple this really is, though I think you meant Water Whip in there. Less simply, I'd want to make each elemental discipline resemble the Mystic's disciplines, a bundle of thematically linked powers with varying point costs and potentially a free "you can have one of these on" effect to choose among.

Of course there is more to evaluating a class than DPR, but what about maintaining the rough comparison of DPR between Fighter and Monk that exists levels 1-10 through levels 11-19 do you disagree with. Why is it ok that the Monk suddenly stops becoming competent at dealing damage after 11th level as the game leaves him behind, why is that ok?

I can answer this one. At level 1-10, the monk keep pace with the two-handed fighter's AC and maybe their damage, though they have less HP and burst abilities and more other weird utilities. At level 11-20, the monk approaches the sword-and-board fighter's AC and maybe their damage, and while it has less HP, gets plenty of better defensive features than indomitable.

Specifically, they get the improved damage die on their one or two bonus action attack(s) each round, as well as accumulating more Ki to have a better chance to be having advantage on their attack (or everyone's) from attacking a stunned target. If you want to compare them to other melee classes, compare them to all the other classes. What does a barbarian get at level 11?

Zman

2016-08-13, 09:27 AM

You should really read the previous post by Vogonjeltz. Like I said, there's a lot more to be to be said on the topic, but if you want to continue this discussion, it should be moved to another thread. You keep bringing up the monk freaking dealing as though it's an advantage of SS 4 hits from a monk will never outpace the damage from free crits for the party. HP has a better success rate than SS (proven). HP doesn't put the caster in the line of fire where if he fails he's going unconscious. HP can be scaled as needed, it can last for multiple rounds, and it is more resource efficient. The comparison is still spot on and no sane person would take SS over HP, except in the sole circumstance that you have to because you're fighting non-humanoids.

I can read, I just find your hypebole and arguments I persuasive.

It is an entire round of damage from a class with the potential for a strong rider. You keep acting like the whole party gets to go hit the target for crits like it is a guarantee. HP likely offers a second save before the majority of the party acts. What is HP's success rate on non humanoids? What percentage of encounters feature no humanoids? How many humanoids are in the MM beyond CR 5 or so?

That sole circumstance you point out is extremely common, and even against Humanoids SS is still good while against nonhumanoids HP is worthless. HP is higher risk and SS is more consistant.

I can answer this one. At level 1-10, the monk keep pace with the two-handed fighter's AC and maybe their damage, though they have less HP and burst abilities and more other weird utilities. At level 11-20, the monk approaches the sword-and-board fighter's AC and maybe their damage, and while it has less HP, gets plenty of better defensive features than indomitable.

Specifically, they get the improved damage die on their one or two bonus action attack(s) each round, as well as accumulating more Ki to have a better chance to be having advantage on their attack (or everyone's) from attacking a stunned target. If you want to compare them to other melee classes, compare them to all the other classes. What does a barbarian get at level 11?

Sure, prior to level 12 their AC is comparable, later the Monk can exceed Plate by 2. Sure, the Monk receives a defensive edge reaching towards late levels and gets more weird utility abilities. A lot of that edge can be lost due to the Monk not having effective Magical Item slots, but many DMs can handwaived that problem away. And if the Monk wants that AC they have zero feats, now additional Con... Wait aren't Hp and AC and Saves all defensive characteristics so the Monk isn't so far ahead... Too bad a Fighter can't get any Feats or boost their Con with those two extra ASIs.

And that bonus die is .7 DPR or 1.4 DPR if they Flurry. Yeah, a Monk can expend Ki and maybe get advantage... And a Fighter expends Superiority Dice for Trip, Advantage, and a damage boost, seems reasonable.

Barbarian: Relentless Rage at 11, additional Rage at 12th, Brital Crit at 13th, Berserker gets Retalitory Strike at 14th(Huge!). They also got a mini tier boost at 9th with Brital Crit and an additional Rage. Barbarian is a bit more spread out not and spikes huge at 5th level and has more gradual gains till 20th which is a massive Tier boost.
Fighter: Extra Attack at 11th after a solid 10th level.
Paladin: Improved Smite.
Ranger: Beastermaster Extra Beast Attack. Hunter gets Volley and Multiattack.
Rogue: More Sneak Attack, Rogures are very granulated so less of a spike.
Casters: 6th levels spells, +50% base Cantrip damage.

Monks??? Ribbons and some low level spells.

Yep, that seems as fair and balanced as Fox News coverage.

Elinvar

2016-08-15, 02:37 PM

For me, the question isn't whether or not stunning strike is better than hold person. (though I think it is for all the reasons already mentioned: versatility, being "on top of" damage, far more uses per day, multiple uses per round burning through legendary saves, etc.)

The question is, is spamming stunning strike generally the best use of a monk in a combat situation?

If the answer to the latter question is "yes", then that's a problem, because:

1. It makes the monk more boring and niche, making other uses of the monk "sub-par"
2. It floods turns with ridiculous numbers of rolls.

I think this is actually the crux of the problems with monks, and especially the elemental monk. Since they're spells cost level +1 ki points its difficult to get value out of them compared to stunning strike, which I'd say is value as about equivalent to hold person, except that you can stunning strike 4 times a round instead of once (for most characters)

One way of fixing this is reducing the cost of the spells to one ki point per level, as suggested before, but that would still put stunning strike as the most ki efficient solution to any given problem.

As such, for the Elemental monk in the game I'm running, I used a variation on the second crowd-sourced monk fix, except that I removed stunning fist and replaced it more spells, since my goal was to mimic that show everyone is thinking of when they sign up to be an elemental monk. As a neat side-goal, the variation I used is pretty decent at mimicking the abilities of other element-wielding anime characters, for those who are into that sort of thing.

I went a bit farther since I feel that the monk is still kind of weak overall; giving each elemental path a damaging cantrip in addition to a utility one, adding some more spells, allowing the monk's missile deflection to work against elemental attacks etc.
If their is any interest I could post and link it, although it has yet to be thoroughly tested.

rudy

2016-08-15, 02:48 PM

If their is any interest I could post and link it, although it has yet to be thoroughly tested.
I'd certainly be interested in seeing it. I'm pretty settled on increasing the cost of stunning strike to 2, along with increasing the general monk ki pool, but I haven't fully settled on changes to the Elemental Monk, beyond them definitely getting:

*Move Earth, Shape Water, Control Fire, Gust cantrips over time
*The ability to deal elemental damage in place of bludgeoning damage with their fists

on top of their existing picks.

Now, that may be enough, but I won't turn down the opportunity to see other ideas.

Vogonjeltz

2016-08-15, 08:52 PM

I think this is actually the crux of the problems with monks, and especially the elemental monk. Since they're spells cost level +1 ki points its difficult to get value out of them compared to stunning strike, which I'd say is value as about equivalent to hold person, except that you can stunning strike 4 times a round instead of once (for most characters)

One way of fixing this is reducing the cost of the spells to one ki point per level, as suggested before, but that would still put stunning strike as the most ki efficient solution to any given problem.

As such, for the Elemental monk in the game I'm running, I used a variation on the second crowd-sourced monk fix, except that I removed stunning fist and replaced it more spells, since my goal was to mimic that show everyone is thinking of when they sign up to be an elemental monk. As a neat side-goal, the variation I used is pretty decent at mimicking the abilities of other element-wielding anime characters, for those who are into that sort of thing.

I went a bit farther since I feel that the monk is still kind of weak overall; giving each elemental path a damaging cantrip in addition to a utility one, adding some more spells, allowing the monk's missile deflection to work against elemental attacks etc.
If their is any interest I could post and link it, although it has yet to be thoroughly tested.

Hold person is automatically superior ki efficiency over stunning strike.

Zalabim

2016-08-16, 02:32 AM

I think this is actually the crux of the problems with monks, and especially the elemental monk. Since they're spells cost level +1 ki points its difficult to get value out of them compared to stunning strike, which I'd say is value as about equivalent to hold person, except that you can stunning strike 4 times a round instead of once (for most characters)

One way of fixing this is reducing the cost of the spells to one ki point per level, as suggested before, but that would still put stunning strike as the most ki efficient solution to any given problem.

The value in the elemental monk spells or abilities is that they address problems you can't just stunning strike away. At level 3, you don't even have stunning strike yet. At level 6, you have Hold Person, Fist of Unbroken Air, and Water Whip that seem to compete with stunning strike in the theme of inconvenience and damage, but even there you see that they use different saving throws and can be used at range. Outside a handful of the options, the abilities are simply not comparable to stunning strike. Are you going to stunning strike your way through the air? Stunning strike your way through a 1" gap? Stunning strike down a mob of hobgoblins or gricks? Stunning strike up an earthen fortification or bridge across a gap? As funny as these images are, to me, they show that any value in the 4elements abilities is from letting you do things you couldn't do at all before.

The simplest fix I would recommend is just flatly giving the monk all the elemental disciplines at each level. Their cost keeps them from being overwhelmingly strong, but having all the niche abilities means you're more likely to use one of your niche abilities.

Fflewddur Fflam

2016-08-16, 10:43 AM

The simplest fix I would recommend is just flatly giving the monk all the elemental disciplines at each level. Their cost keeps them from being overwhelmingly strong, but having all the niche abilities means you're more likely to use one of your niche abilities.

This is actually kind of a compelling idea. It doesn't eliminate the problem of the ki-starved 4E monk, but it at least gives them some versatility compared to 1/3rd-casters like Eldritch Knight or Arcane Trickster who have more spells than the 4E monk.

TheUser

2016-08-16, 02:00 PM

Long time lurker here who's been an avid Monk Player for a long time, this post caught my interest and finally spurred me to write a response.

While the Four Elements Monk definitely struggles with resources the flexibility it provides the player is astronomical, moreover the recharge on short rest arguably makes up for this. No other monk Archetype offers AoE damage/combat utility spells.

If you -really- want to free up your Ki you can create a number of free uses per day on Four Elements Abilities equal to your wisdom modifier that recharges on long rest. It keeps it simple, makes it scale with levels/ASI's, makes having higher level abilities more relevant and generally alleviates the Ki draw problems. It also mimics the free spell slots that the other 1/3 caster archetypes receive. You can always go over the limit and start expending Ki (or the other way around, spend Ki and then use your per day wisdom modifier uses when you are in a pinch) but it keeps the bonuses to the archetype related abilities.

While this will probably solve any and all Ki problems you encounter I highly advise against modifying the base class; remember that Mo4E is still a fully fledged monk after all is said and done. Shadow's limitation is that you need dim light to get use out of half of your features and Open Hand's limitation is that it doesn't actually compensate for a weakness (it strengthens the monk's role as single target disabler/damager). If Mo4E didn't have the limitations that it currently does it would outshine the other archetypes by a wide margin. The archetype is essentially an average between a 1/3 and a 1/2 caster Warlock (5/12 caster sounds stupid...). It's not about outshining or competing with fully fledged casters; you're already a full monk. It's about reducing the strain on your group for spell slots and concentration effects.

Hold person will always be strong but sometimes your groups casters need to have a polymorph or a stinking cloud or wall of fire up and they can't use hold person... but you can! Most casters will need their concentration spells for themselves or what they have going on; by being able to use your own you add another layer of utility no other monk has while still retaining functionality. Being able to Fly, Hold Person and Stoneskin are some of the best concentration effects a caster might want to cast on you but would limit them from other stronger spells they need to concentrate on.

Sometimes your group just needs that extra bump of AoE to make large amounts of monsters trivial; your groups blaster has already piled on some strong AoE for their turn but most of the enemies are still up; slap down a fireball or two and the encounter becomes trivial.

You can try to compare point for point Ki costs on stunning strike versus shatter or fireball but you can't because you can't effectively do that kind of damage as monk anyway. You can try and compare stunning strike to hold person but the truth is you have both and can attack the weaker of the two saves at any time. This is why they eat into your Ki so heavily and it's why I advocate for keeping the baseline unchanged. (Avoid Fangs of the Fire Snake, Fists of Unbroken Air and post-errata Water Whip and you should feel a lot better about the class, also remember that at level 6 you can swap out Elemental Attunement for another discipline).

Vogonjeltz

2016-08-17, 02:01 PM

(Avoid Fangs of the Fire Snake, Fists of Unbroken Air and post-errata Water Whip and you should feel a lot better about the class, also remember that at level 6 you can swap out Elemental Attunement for another discipline).

Unbroken Air and Water Whip are good damage for the level they come online. Better than any other use of the ki, actually.

TheUser

2016-08-18, 11:28 AM

Unbroken Air and Water Whip are good damage for the level they come online. Better than any other use of the ki, actually.

When water whip errata came out to make it a standard action instead of a bonus action it really stopped being ideal in my eyes.

Both abilities stop you from using flurry of blows which at level 4 is 3d6+12 (if you took a dex boost at level 4 with point buy or standard array) vs 3d10 for even more Ki cost. At level 5 it becomes 4d6+15 (with extra attack). So you have to go through 2 of the 3 levels before 6 with a less than ideal damage ability that costs more Ki....

They are not good for their damage, they are only somewhat useful for push/pull, but you trying to tell people it's good for damage is just plain misinformation.

Vogonjeltz

2016-08-19, 06:48 AM

When water whip errata came out to make it a standard action instead of a bonus action it really stopped being ideal in my eyes.

Both abilities stop you from using flurry of blows which at level 4 is 3d6+12 (if you took a dex boost at level 4 with point buy or standard array) vs 3d10 for even more Ki cost. At level 5 it becomes 4d6+15 (with extra attack). So you have to go through 2 of the 3 levels before 6 with a less than ideal damage ability that costs more Ki....

They are not good for their damage, they are only somewhat useful for push/pull, but you trying to tell people it's good for damage is just plain misinformation.

The ki use for flurry only gives the user +1 attack over just using martial arts for no ki at all.

+1 attack is only valued at 1d4 (2.5)+str/dex mod damage. The boost to 1d6 comes at level 5.
Conversely, 2 ki for Water whip nets 3d10 damage (16.5) or
The damage gain per ki spent is simply higher with Water whip, it can also be scaled up.

Water Whip as a bonus action was just a typo, that would be completely overpowered.

TheUser

2016-08-20, 07:31 AM

The ki use for flurry only gives the user +1 attack over just using martial arts for no ki at all.

+1 attack is only valued at 1d4 (2.5)+str/dex mod damage. The boost to 1d6 comes at level 5.
Conversely, 2 ki for Water whip nets 3d10 damage (16.5) or
The damage gain per ki spent is simply higher with Water whip, it can also be scaled up.

Water Whip as a bonus action was just a typo, that would be completely overpowered.

You're still missing the point; water whip is a standard action after errata. You can't flurry OR monk bonus attack. It's not that flurry only nets you 1d4+3; it's that Water whip costs you your attack AND ability to flurry or bonus attack.

Zalabim

2016-08-21, 01:40 AM

You're still missing the point; water whip is a standard action after errata. You can't flurry OR monk bonus attack. It's not that flurry only nets you 1d4+3; it's that Water whip costs you your attack AND ability to flurry or bonus attack.

It doesn't actually cost you your Bonus Action though, so I'm not sure it's fair to count the fact that you can't punch someone afterwards. You can still use Step of the Wind, Patient Defense, or another ability that requires a bonus action, like redirecting Gust of Wind.

So at level 3, your attack is (at best) 1d8+dex (about 7.5) and your Water Whip is 3d10 (16.5) or 9 damage for 2 Ki. Flurry of blows is 1d4+dex (about 5.5), so it's a little bit lower on damage per Ki spent than flurry, but has more range, is save for half, is already magical damage, and applies an extra effect on a failed save. Realistically, you don't have any other use for your bonus action at this level, so you do also lose your bonus action attacks. You could cost it at 1 Ki instead, but that doesn't address the issue these abilities really face. Your Attack action, martial arts, and flurry of blows are all improving as you gain levels and Water Whip isn't.

It would make a lot of sense to have fixed this by adding path features at the appropriate levels, like making a bonus action attack/flurry after using a discipline, or adding Wis/Dex bonus to damage with disciplines, or using disciplines as a bonus action, or a number of other options.

Strill

2016-08-21, 02:24 AM

I don't understand why monk uses ki cost = spell level for shadow. They have a balanced system to give costs for spells to points and instead of using that they created their own system for monk. It makes no sense.
The DMG point system does it much better imo. 2nd level spells aren't worth double 1st level spells. DMG makes those cost 3 instead of 2. 3rd level spells are more powerful and those cost 5. It all works really well. IMO it's much easier to adapt that system then try to make a broken system (cost = spell level) work.
The devs decided that shadow monk abilities are so niche and situational that they deserved a discount. (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/04/15/monk-way-of-the-shadow/)

So at level 3, your attack is (at best) 1d8+dex (about 7.5) and your Water Whip is 3d10 (16.5) or 9 damage for 2 Ki. Flurry of blows is 1d4+dex (about 5.5)

No, Martial Arts is 1d4+dex. Flurry of Blows is 2x (1d4+dex) for about 11 damage.

That means that for 1 ki, you can get 18.5 damage with Flurry of Blows, or spend 2 ki for 16.5 damage with Water Whip.

Zalabim

2016-08-21, 07:41 AM

The devs decided that shadow monk abilities are so niche and situational that they deserved a discount.
Gust of Wind got the same discount. Arguably, Water Whip and Fist of Unbroken Air did too, since they deal as much damage as inflict wounds, with save for half, more range and an extra effect on top, but they aren't actually spells.

One special thing about those disciplines that should get around so it can at least be addressed is that they are only limited by how much Ki you have at the moment, since they aren't spells. So, at level 3, you also have the option to spend all 3 Ki and deal 4d10 damage (22). If you're already dedicated to using Fist of Unbroken Air and think the damage won't go to waste, there's really no reason to save it for a flurry, especially if you're also allowed to decide on spending the extra Ki after learning the result of the saving throw. That's extremely level 3 specific figuring.

No, Martial Arts is 1d4+dex. Flurry of Blows is 2x (1d4+dex) for about 11 damage.

That means that for 1 ki, you can get 18.5 damage with Flurry of Blows, or spend 2 ki for 16.5 damage with Water Whip.

You cut off half my quote to respond out of context to something that I addressed later in the same post. The context being that spending Ki on Flurry only adds an extra 1d4+dex damage (5.5) at that level. I guess some people may appreciate having the overall numbers added up.