why be a bladelock [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Spiritchaser

2016-08-09, 02:28 PM

Easy_Lee

2016-08-09, 02:34 PM

Give blade locks medium armor proficiency and combine the effects of thirsting blade and lifedrinker, such that the benefit automatically comes online at 12. Do those two things and blade locks are fine.

As is, a fiend blade lock is quite effective, but other types ought to dip fighter and take polearm mastery to be effective.

wilhelmdubdub

2016-08-09, 02:56 PM

I made a build that starts with fighter levels for more hp, heavy armor profeciency, second wind, and action surge. Now you are tanky enough for melee combat. Hex (D6) plus lifedrinker (+Cha) on a great sword is a lot of damage. Not to mention your proficiency in con saves to maintain concentration. Warcaster for advantage on concentration checks, and add booming blade for nasty attacks of opportunity. Fighter 3/Warlock 3 you can take battlemaster and bladelock and easily become versitle as you can eldritch blast from a distance as well, and also add trips +D8, riposte and precise attack to make sure you hit when hex is up.

Spiritchaser

2016-08-09, 03:09 PM

I do appreciate that with investment and multiclassing a bladelock will be "fine" but it seems that the blastlock could do all the same things, or different things) for as much or more benefit.

I don't really care about absolute power but I am concerned about relative power, particularly between fairly similar characters, where delta's are going to be pretty obvious.

Adding medium armor seems like a good thing, but if the bladelock needs the polearm mastery feat and the blastlock does not, the blastlock could be taking a feat to break even there, and be no further behind on stat increases.

DivisibleByZero

2016-08-09, 03:21 PM

Bladelock is fine as is.
The difference between melee and EB is minimal. I'll find and link my breakdown for it all when u get home from work in a few hours.

jaappleton

2016-08-09, 03:33 PM

Bladelock is fine as is.
The difference between melee and EB is minimal. I'll find and link my breakdown for it all when u get home from work in a few hours.

To make use of GWM or Polearm Master, a Bladelock needs Strength, Dex, Con and Charisma. Yes, you can dip Fighter for Armor proficiency and or take spells that don't utilize Charisma... But that also really limits what spells are useful to you and delays your Warlock progression.

If you're not utilizing GWM or Polearm Master, you're inferior to any class that actually gets a Fighting Style. You also don't get Shield proficiency or anything but Light Armor. Again, Fighter dip fixes that, but the Bladelock shouldn't require dipping to be effective.

And if you ARE a straight Bladelock, you're not really using Repelling Blast for control. And really only the Fiend has the survivability to make a pretty decent frontline warrior.

An effective Bladelock can be made. That's absolutely true. But so many other classes do the whole Gish thing much better and with much less control over what you pick and do.

Specter

2016-08-09, 03:39 PM

The main reason? When you're out of your scarce spell slots, you can still attack dudes twice. "But Agonizing Blast is better!" I know, but I for one wouldn't take it.

Giant2005

2016-08-09, 03:39 PM

Before you make any adjustments, you should consider what the other players in the game will be doing.
If someone is likely to be knocking the enemies prone, it will be the ranged Warlock that is coming up short.

Spiritchaser

2016-08-09, 03:49 PM

Party comp... that's well worth thinking about

Ranger or totem barb
Bladelock or (maybe) eldritch knight
Tomblock
Bladesinger

NPC healer (probably a cleric or druid, but I really haven't decided yet.)

I don't expect anyone will use a shield much.

CursedRhubarb

2016-08-09, 03:59 PM

Just because they may not be top numbers on damage doesn't mean they fall short. An EB focused lock may be top for lock damage mut utility is where the others shine. Let the fighter, cleric, or barbarian be your meatshield and go in with a one handed weapon and use your off-hand to mix things up. Strength bladelocks can be a bit linear but if you have a Dex based bladelock hex guys for wisdom and do sleight of hand checks vs their perception to pluck their ammo, slide that backup weapon of theirs out of it's scabbard and toss it aside, snag the keys from their belt or just take the belt itself so their trousers may fall. Go with spells that don't rely on attack rolls and don't just make hazards, be a hazard!

ad_hoc

2016-08-09, 04:01 PM

I think the thing I don't like about the Pact of the Blade is that the weapon that you create through sheer will doesn't feel special.

The feature basically gives you melee martial weapon proficiency and a weapon that counts as magical for damage resistances.

I think a simple and thematic change would be to allow you to use your Charisma as your stat with that weapon.

Spiritchaser

2016-08-09, 04:12 PM

The charisma to damage works, and gets rid of the weird situation where a staff tomblock can do some things better than a bladelock.

Hmmm

Add in one invocation

Eldritch plate, While not wearing armor, the Warlock may take their base armor class to be the sum of: 10 + CHA bonus + CON bonus
No concurrent Dex bonus

Prerequisite pact of the blade, level... I'd say something high enough to prevent multiclass poaching, but in this case that shouldn't be too problematic...

Tanarii

2016-08-09, 04:47 PM

This does not seem to be the case, even if the bladelock spends an extra feat on polearm mastery.Greatsword vs EB + Agonizing starting at level 3, assuming Hex:

3: GS 3d6+3 (14.5) vs EB 1d10+1d6+3 (12)
5: GS 6d6+8 (29) vs EB 2d10+2d6+8 (26)
8: GS 6d6+10 (31) vs EB 2d10+2d6+10 (28)
11: GS 6d6+10 (31) vs EB 3d10+3d6+15 (42)
12: GS 6d6+18 (39) vs EB 3d10+3d6+15 (42)
16: GS 6d6+20 (41) vs EB 3d10+3d6+15 (42)
17: GS 6d6+20 (41) vs EB 4d10+4d6+20 (56)

That's assuming:
1) no GWM (or other feats)
2) no magic items affecting it, and getting a magic sword is (generally, totally IMX & anecdotal) far more easy than a Pact Keeper Rod (or whatever the ONE magic item that increases pact magic hit & damage is called).
3) no Advantage for the GS wielder
4) no Cover, Concealment, or Close Combat for the EB attacker

So it's ahead until level 11, then catches up (mostly) again at 12, then drops behind at 17. Also, the GS wielder has much more dangerous OAs.

Edit: Also if you *don't* assume Hex or Agonizing Blast, it's a totally different game for the comparison. But I'm pretty sure if I tried to do that everyone would cry foul, even though I've seen plenty of Warlocks without both.

RSP

2016-08-09, 04:57 PM

I'm playing a multi class bladelock now and it works pretty well. My main complaint is with the base Pact feature. The PoB feature is significantly weaker than the EK's similar ability which is also granted at 3rd level.

Whereas it's usually a bad idea to compare different classes' archetypes, I only do so to point out how badly designed I think the PoB feature is. My issues:

EK summons as a bonus action, PoB summons as a full action. Not to mention drawing a sword is a free action. So go ahead and use your cool Pact ability, just keep in mind you won't be attacking during the first round while everyone else is.

EK can effect two weapons with their ability, PoB can only effect 1, meaning no dual wielding option for the feature.

EK gets the added benefit of their weapons cannot ever be disarmed, while the PoB has the added nerf of not being to use their ability on the best items in the game (sentient or artifact weapons). This is particularly bad IMO; you're specifically designing a melee attacker and your class ability prevents you from playing with the coolest toys. How does that make sense? It's like picking a Wizard school that specifies "you can't learn spells of higher level than 5th."

EK's ability is a secondary feature (adding Wizard spells being the "meat" of the archetype), while the PoB is the only feature. Granted you can use your invocations to improve with PoB specific choices, but this is costing features from the main Warlock chassis, while the EK is getting additional add ins like casting and attacking on the same turn.

Apologies for the rant, but it just doesn't make sense why they designed the PoB ability as so much worse then the similar EK ability. The fluff just seems like "for the cost of you soul, you get a much lesser ability than a warrior who decides to dabble in spell casting."

Spiritchaser

2016-08-09, 04:59 PM

I would note that the bladelock must max two stats and is much more vulnerable to damage. I really don't feel this is great, but if I go with +cha to damage...

Mandragola

2016-08-09, 05:14 PM

The thing a bladelock gets that sets it apart from something like an EK is being a full caster. He can still drop a fireball on a room at level 5, can counterspell, fly, and cast EB almost as well as a tomelock.

In fact, at level 20 when the tomelock starts to pull away in dpr, there's no reason the bladelock can't also have cha 20 and do exactly the same amount of dpr, using the same spell. But he can also smash people around with whatever horrible weapon a lvl 17 bladelock has, if he feels like it. Or if not, he takes gwm or PAM and does substantially more damage.

A bladelock can do awesome dpr at range or in melee. Just about any other character has to choose one or the other. That's pretty awesome really.

Grod_The_Giant

2016-08-09, 05:20 PM

I'm with Rsp29a-- Pact of the Blade is just poorly done, largely because it does much more than the other two Pacts. Chain and Tome both give you utility-focused extras, things you stack on top of the main Warlock chassis. Blade tries to completely shift the paradigm. Chain and Tome give you immediate benefits; Blade really just unlocks Invocations. The real choice should be between Blade and blast. Like, at 5th level you can get Cha to blast damage or Extra Attack, and that's your feature for the level. (And at 12th you'd get the extra ray or +Cha to melee damage, and presumably a third melee power-up at 17th to go with the fourth ray)

The third level feature, then, should probably be something similarly utility-y. Maybe a "Pact of the Void," that lets you store items in the Astral Plane and retrieve them as a bonus action, with Invocation options to gain proficiency+counts-as-magic with weapons and armor, and maybe to banish other people's items. The former would make it sort of fit with the Bladelock, while Tome sort of fits with the Blastlock and Chain can go either way-- but none really hamper you that much if you pick another option.

Just because they may not be top numbers on damage doesn't mean they fall short. An EB focused lock may be top for lock damage mut utility is where the others shine. Let the fighter, cleric, or barbarian be your meatshield and go in with a one handed weapon and use your off-hand to mix things up. Strength bladelocks can be a bit linear but if you have a Dex based bladelock hex guys for wisdom and do sleight of hand checks vs their perception to pluck their ammo, slide that backup weapon of theirs out of it's scabbard and toss it aside, snag the keys from their belt or just take the belt itself so their trousers may fall. Go with spells that don't rely on attack rolls and don't just make hazards, be a hazard!
The problem is that the Bladelock isn't actually more useful-- they have the same (or higher) Invocation tax, all Warlocks take Hex, and the Blastlock has less stat pressure so he has more freedom to pick spells.

DivisibleByZero

2016-08-09, 05:41 PM

So much of what I'm reading here is just wrong wrong wrong. I really can't wait until I have a few moments to find that post.

Tikkun

2016-08-09, 05:42 PM

I believe the bladelock is there for 'flavour'. It is really a sub-optimal fighter unless you want to multi-class. And if you do so you are better off in taking the extra attacks that the fighter class can provide.

You can Multi-class an EK and warlock--taking 3 attacks and using the EK slots to cast the big 2 or three warlock spells--armour of agathys, darkness and hex without having an INT score higher than 8 or a STR over 15 for plate. You can max your CHA, take all the feats you like and be a tomelock. A quarterstaff and shield with PAM, duelling fighting style and Shillelagh give you a high AC fighter using hex or darkness with a 1d8 magic weapons that does 1d8 + 2 damage +CHA mod + the 1d4 bonus with added damage of the +2 and CHA mod. But of course, you will not be a bladelock.

MaxWilson

2016-08-09, 05:43 PM

So it looks like I might be DMing again

If one player in the group is an EB warlock, and the other a bladelock, it would seem intuitive that the bladelock should have an advantage in damage, as they may need to waste time closing with an enemy, and spend more resources on protection as they will be subject to melee reprisals, grapples, etc. Plus, by virtue of being a bladelock, they don't get to be a tomblock or chainlock.

This does not seem to be the case, even if the bladelock spends an extra feat on polearm mastery.

Multiclassing, where it fits can help the bladelock, but even then, a scorcerer Warlock blasting away is better still.

I'm thinking of a modest buff to the one character, but I need to think this through before we play and I'd like some suggestions and or help in doing so.

1. Fix the problem with a magical polearm or an amulet/demonic boon that grants +2 strength, or even more at high level, or a belt of DM fiat.

2. Add invocations that give a bonus to hit, or add a debuff to blade strikes, or even a fighting style

3. Do nothing! The situation is fine because (insert reason here)

The situation is sort of fine as is--as in, there are situations where you'd want to go Bladelock. But I think your goal is to make Bladelock attractive and fun without requiring a first-level dip in Fighter or Barbarian.

To that end, I'd suggest just adding an armor proficiency as a Pact Boon: you gain proficiency in medium armor (but not shields). Voila! Now Bladelocks are channeled into two-weapon fighting, which means that once Hex is accounted for, you can be doing 6d6+6(ish) with Str 16 and paired shortswords by 5th level for an average of about 27 points of damage (modulo hit percentage), compared to a Blastlock's Hex + Eldritch Blast's 2d10+2d6+6(24) points of damage. Not only are you tougher than the Blastlock AC-wise, but you're outdamaging him too, at least after the first round (Hex and TWF both need your bonus action).

The best part is that there's no real danger of power creep since medium armor is easily available through multiclassing anyway. The ceiling on bladelocks has not changed a bit, only the floor.

Later on, you can acquire Polearm Master to bump your base damage dice to d10s instead of d6s and get a reaction attack.

Tanarii

2016-08-09, 06:01 PM

Apologies for the rant, but it just doesn't make sense why they designed the PoB ability as so much worse then the similar EK ability. The fluff just seems like "for the cost of you soul, you get a much lesser ability than a warrior who decides to dabble in spell casting."Because it grants proficiency in Martial Weapons.

That makes Pact of the Blade Boon > than the Weapon Bond. Bladelocks get a full class Feature (Martial Weapon proficiency, opens access to Extra Attack at level 5), plus some additional ribbon abilities tacked on to it. EK's full class Feature is Spellcasting (1/3 rate). Weapon Bond is just a ribbon ability.

RSP

2016-08-09, 06:06 PM

Mandragola,
I'm not saying a bladelock isn't good, and again, in general, comparing archetypes across classes is tough to do fairly.

Their Pact feature is poorly designed though, and we see that best in comparison to a similar feature belonging to the EK.

Mostly, we see this in how it's self-nerfing, for lack of a better term.

You get to be a melee combatant, but can't use the best melee weapons, can't duel wield (within the boundaries of the feature - like proficiency and extra Chr damage), and can't attack in the first round of combat (again if using the feature).

Look at it this way, if you only have an EK their spells at level 3, and removed their weapon summoning/retaining features, you would not really notice any difference in play. It's very much an add on feature that is thematic or corner case, that is, you can draw a weapon for free instead of using a bonus action to summon, and the can't be disarmed only comes up if you're fighting a BM.

People wouldn't notice a drop off in the EK play. Again, a nice ability but it's definitely a small add on compared to casting spells as a full 3 attack fighter and casting and attacking in the same turn.

On the flip side, the bladelock, in exchange for their PoB ability, give up a very nice familiar or extra cantrips and utility spells in rituals, the ability to select as many invocations, and the use of the best magic weapons.

Plus it really should be a bonus action to summon.

Again just my opinions on what the OP was asking; I think it's a decent class but my advice is I'd certainly discuss these issues with your DM.

RSP

2016-08-09, 06:09 PM

Tanarii

2016-08-09, 06:13 PM

Tanarii,
It doesn't give martial proficiencies, it grants proficiency in your PoB. If it gave martial weapon proficiencies, you could at least dual wield on par with other melee types.

And again, it can not grant proficiencies in the best weapons.And if your Pact Blade is a martial weapon, you gain proficiency in using it. It's debatable if the RAW / RAI are that it applies to TWF, so you may or may not be right on that part.

But you're definitely wrong about TWF being "the best weapons". TWF is generally considered the most sub-par fighting style. But what it does let you use is a Greatsword or Polearm, which you couldn't before.

Edit: I'll grant it's limited Martial Weapon proficiency, and limited Extra Attack. But then, an EK has limited spellcasting. Same idea. It's not to be as good as, just some part of. Partial spellcasting. Partial melee combat capability.

wilhelmdubdub

2016-08-09, 06:15 PM

Greatsword vs EB + Agonizing starting at level 3, assuming Hex:

3: GS 3d6+3 (14.5) vs EB 1d10+1d6+3 (12)
5: GS 6d6+8 (29) vs EB 2d10+2d6+8 (26)
8: GS 6d6+10 (31) vs EB 2d10+2d6+10 (28)
11: GS 6d6+10 (31) vs EB 3d10+3d6+15 (42)
12: GS 6d6+18 (39) vs EB 3d10+3d6+15 (42)
16: GS 6d6+20 (41) vs EB 3d10+3d6+15 (42)
17: GS 6d6+20 (41) vs EB 4d10+4d6+20 (56)

That's assuming:
1) no GWM (or other feats)
2) no magic items affecting it, and getting a magic sword is (generally, totally IMX & anecdotal) far more easy than a Pact Keeper Rod (or whatever the ONE magic item that increases pact magic hit & damage is called).
3) no Advantage for the GS wielder
4) no Cover, Concealment, or Close Combat for the EB attacker

So it's ahead until level 11, then catches up (mostly) again at 12, then drops behind at 17. Also, the GS wielder has much more dangerous OAs.

Edit: Also if you *don't* assume Hex or Agonizing Blast, it's a totally different game for the comparison. But I'm pretty sure if I tried to do that everyone would cry foul, even though I've seen plenty of Warlocks without both.

Would it make sense to consider lifedrinker invocation at level 12, adding Cha to pact weapon damage?

Tanarii

2016-08-09, 06:16 PM

Would it make sense to consider lifedrinker invocation at level 12, adding Cha to pact weapon damage?I did, it's included from level 12 onwards.

Tikkun

2016-08-09, 06:28 PM

Actually, the Blade Pact and accompanying invocations are quite precise. You create a pact weapon that has a form similar to one of the weapons on the weapons table. But if you read further it is quite clear it is not the same as a 'real' weapon. If you lose your pact weapon and it is more than 5 feet away from you and a minute elapses it disappears. A real weapon would not disappear. Just because it has the form of a weapon does not make it the weapon.

This can be confirmed by reading the Thirsting Blade invocation which states : "You can attack with your pact weapon twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn." Furthermore, Lifedrinker reiterates this distinction between Pact weapon and others : "When you hit a creature with your pact weapon, the creature takes extra necrotic damage equal to your Charisma modifier (minimum 1)."

There is no mention of plural weapons anywhere. There is only 1 pact weapon as is clear from the rules. So in both RAW and RAI a pact weapon is distinct from other types of weapons for the purposes of damage and modifiers.

RSP

2016-08-09, 06:32 PM

Tanarii,
Not granting proficiency in the best weapons was not a reference to dual wielding; it was referencing sentient and artifact weapons, which are excluded from PoB, per RAW.

As for using other weapons of the same type as your PoB, the rules state:

"You are proficient with it while you wield it."

The use of "it" is singular and is specifically referencing the weapon summoned with the PoB ability. This means you aren't proficient in the weapon type, only in the PoB weapon.

Obviously play it as you will, but I'd say that doing so only goes to my point that it isn't a very well designed ability.

DivisibleByZero

2016-08-09, 06:40 PM

Much of what had been said here in this thread is wrong.

Someone was kind enough above to show, via simple math, how a Str bladelock competes with (or is strictly better than) a blastlock through most of his career.
The same is true of a Dex build.

Bladelocks are nowhere near as terrible as you make them out to be. As a matter of fact, it is hands down the strongest Pact choice, by a wide margin.

Chainlocks have a fantastic familiar. This can be useful for scouting, and RP, and all sorts of different out of combat situations.
Familiars in combat are going to be extremely DM dependent. I have heard many people claim that an invisible familiar can Help an ally to grant advantage on attack rolls, by saying mean things and poking enemies in the butt (that's a quote, not me being obtuse). If your DM would allow this, then go for it, but don't count on it. If your DM doesn't allow invisible cretures slinging insults to grant advantage then your familiar is going to get killed if he's in melee range. Very quickly. And very frequently.
Pact of the Chain makes you a regular blaster warlock that has some extra out of combat utility due to an amazing familiar.

Tomelocks can have a couple extra cantrips and great ritual casting.
Their extra cantrips are basically useless in combat, because Eldritch Blast will almost undoubtedly be better. So their extra cantrip choices are useful for out of combat situations. They have amazing ritual casting, but rituals are not used in combat as they take too long, so those are also useful for out of combat situations.
So Pact of the Tome makes you a regular blaster warlock that has some extra out of combat utility in the form of extra cantrips and lots of rituals.

While the other two Pacts focus more on out of combat utility via various means, the Bladelock is a bit different. The Bladelock focuses on adding more combat options, by granting proficiency in any melee weapon you want when you manifest your pact blade, and offering ways to improve your melee aptitude.
So Pact of the Blade makes you a regular blaster warlock that has a viable melee option in combat, which is something that you cannot get from another Pact.

Tthe Ritual Caster feat gives both wizard rituals (a big part of the Tomelock's schtick) and a familiar (a big part of the Chainlock's schtick). So if he wants to, with a single feat a Bladelock can gain a large portion of the other two Pacts' benefits while retaining his own. So not only does a Bladelock have something that the other Pacts cannot get in the form of reliable and competitive melee damage, but he can also get a large portion of their tricks as well.

So for a combat oriented warlock, there is really only one option, and that option is Pact of the Blade.

I have heard many people complain that Bladelocks require more invocations than other types of warlocks. This is simply untrue.

If you choose Pact of the Tome, you are useless without taking Book of Ancient Secrets (available at level three).
That's an invocation tax.

If you choose Pact of the Chain, but do not take Voice of the Chain Master (available at level three), you would literally be better off using Pact of the Tome or the Ritual Caster feat to get your familiar. Not only that, but Chains of Carceri (available at level 15) is free, slotless CC against many outsiders, and you'd be a fool not to take it unless you know for certain that these enemies will not be prevalent in the campaign.
That's two invocation taxes.

If you choose Pact of the Blade, you will take Thirsting Blade (available at level five) and Lifedrinker (available at level 12) to keep your melee damage up to par.
That's two invocation taxes.

So the Chainlock and the Bladelock each have two invocation taxes, while the Tomelock has one.
Not much difference there at all.

Every single warlock that wants to focus on dealing damage will take Agonizing Blast. There's one invocation spoken for right away, for every warlock, no matter your Pact choice, likely right at level two. People like to claim that Bladelocks won't have the same EB that another warlock has, but let me ask you, what are you spending your invocations on prior to level five? Agonizing Blast is one of them.
Every single warlock that wants to offer a little at-will CC will take Repelling Blast. Tomelocks and Chainlocks will likely take this to keep enemies away, while the Bladelock may not because he doesn't mind being in melee.

This means we probably have three invocations spoken for already for the Tomelock: Book of Ancient Secrets, Agonizing Blast, and Repelling Blast.
This means we probably have four invocations spoken for already for the Chainlock: Voice of the Chain Master, Chains of Carceri, Agonizing Blast, and Repelling Blast.
This means we probably have three invocations spoken for already for the Bladelock: Thirsting Blade, Lifedrinker, and Agonizing Blast. Without Repelling, he has three invocation taxes, just like the Tomelock. If he wants, he can take Repelling, bringing the total to four just like the probable Chainlock build.

So tell me, why does everyone think that Bladelocks have some harsh invocation tax? They have no more of an invocation tax than any other warlock has. Saying that they do is simply untrue.

As I have already shown, Bladelocks will have just as good of an EB as any other warlock. They don't suddenly lose the ability to choose EB as a cantrip and its accompanying invocations by taking this Pact, although that's what some people would have you believe.
They may take a little bit longer to get their Charisma to max 20, but that's almost a non-issue in actual play. In actual play, a + or - 1 for a few levels isn't going to ruin your character like some would have you believe.

So let's look at some comparisons, shall we?
We'll make the Chainlock and Tomelock (hereafter named Blastlocks) start with a 16 Cha, raising it at levels 4 and 8, to 18 and 20 respectively.
The Bladelock will begin with a 16 in both Dex and Cha, raising Dex at levels 4 and 12, and Cha at levels 8 and 16. This will leave the Bladelock with a Cha score two points lower than the Blastlock's for a couple of levels here and there.
Zero feats, zero fighting styles, zero house rules, just straight up comparisons that literally any warlock in any game can reasonably expect.
We'll assign +1 weapons at levels 3 and 8 (I was going to do 3 and 6, but that left only the Bladelock at that level, so I postponed it for ease of use), +2 weapons at levels 8 and 11, and +3 weapons at levels 13 and 16. Remember, you only need to find a single finesse weapon. The other weapon can literally be anything, as your Pact allows you to create the weapon in any form you choose.
Blastlocks have no way to increase their EB's damage (only attack and save DCs), so we'll just give them a magical rod to aid in attack rolls at levels 3, 8, and 13.
The levels chosen for the magic items (3, 8, 13 for main, and 8, 11, 16 for off hand) are a bit arbitrary, but seem reasonable.
I will not give the Bladelock a magic rod, so his EB will be at a lower attack bonus. Although swapping weapons was described by the designers as something that should simply be able to happen, which means any time he wanted to swap he should be able to without a problem. But I'll be nice and simply not give him one.

Level 1 Blastlock and Bladelock EB: hex, 16 CHA, +5 vs AC 15
5% crit chance for 2d10+2d6 damage = 0.85
55% normal chance for 1d10+1d6 damage = 4.95
Damage = 5.8

Level 1 Bladelock TWF: 2 reg sSwords, hex, 16 DEX, +5 vs AC 15
5% crit chance for 4d6+3 damage = 0.85
5% crit chance for 4d6 damage = 0.7
55% normal chance for 2d6+3 damage = 5.5
55% normal chance for 2d6 damage = 3.85
Damage = 10.9 / 6.35 without bonus action

TWF Bladelock is the clear winner at level 1, even without the use of his bonus action.

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Level 2 Blastlock and Bladelock EB: hex, 16 CHA, +5 vs AC 15
5% crit chance for 2d10+2d6+3 damage = 1
55% normal chance for 1d10+1d6+3 damage = 6.6
Damage = 7.6

Bladelock TWF remains at 10.9 / 6.35 without bonus action

TWF Bladelock is still the clear winner with his bonus action, and is only 1 pt behind without it.

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Level 3 Blastlock EB: +1 rod, hex, 16 CHA, +6 vs AC 15
5% crit chance for 2d10+2d6+3 damage = 1
60% normal chance for 1d10+1d6+3 damage = 7.2
Damage = 8.2

Level 3 Bladelock TWF: +1 pact sSword, reg sSword, hex, 16 DEX, +6 and +5 vs AC 15
5% crit chance for 4d6+4 damage = 0.9
5% crit chance for 4d6 damage = 0.7
60% normal chance for 2d6+4 damage = 6.6
55% normal chance for 2d6 damage = 3.85
Damage = 12.05 / 7.5 without bonus action

Bladelock EB remains at 7.6

TWF Bladelock is 4 pts ahead with his bonus action, and less than 1 pt behind without it.
Bladelock's EB is only 1 pt behind the Blastlock's.

************************************************** ***************************

Level 4 Blastlock EB: +1 rod, 18 CHA, +7 vs AC 15
5% crit chance for 2d10+2d6+4 damage = 1.05
65% normal chance for 1d10+1d6+4 damage = 8.45
Damage = 9.5

Level 4 Bladelock TWF: +1 pact sSword, reg sSword, hex, 18 DEX, +7 and +6 vs AC 15
5% crit chance for 4d6+5 damage = 0.95
5% crit chance for 4d6 damage = 0.7
65% normal chance for 2d6+5 damage = 7.8
60% normal chance for 2d6 damage = 4.2
Damage = 13.65 / 8.75 without bonus action

Bladelock EB remains at 7.6

TWF Bladelock is 4 pts ahead with his bonus action, and is only 1 pt behind without it.
Bladelock's EB is only 2 pts behind the Blastlock's.

************************************************** ***************************

Level 5 Blastlock EB: 2nd blast: +1 rod, hex, 18 CHA, +8 vs AC 16
5% crit chance for 2d10+2d6+4 damage = 1.05(*2) = 2.1
65% normal chance for 1d10+1d6+4 damage = 8.45(*2) = 16.9
Damage = 19

Level 5 Bladelock TWF: extra attack: +1 pact sSword, reg sSword, hex, 18 DEX, +8 and +7 vs AC 16
5% crit chance for 4d6+5 damage = 0.95(*2) = 1.9
5% crit chance for 4d6 damage = 0.7
65% normal chance for 2d6+5 damage = 7.2(*2) = 14.4
60% normal chance for 2d6 damage = 4.2
Damage = 21.2 / 16.3 without bonus action

Level 5 Bladelock EB: 2nd blast: hex, 16 CHA, +6 vs AC 16
5% crit chance for 2d10+2d6+3 damage = 1(*2) = 2
55% normal chance for 1d10+1d6+3 damage = 6.6(*2) = 13.2
Damage = 15.2

TWF Bladelock is 2 pts ahead with his bonus action, and is 3 pts behind without it.
Bladelock's EB is 4 pts behind the Blastlock's.

************************************************** ***************************

Level 8 Blastlock EB: +2 rod, hex, 20 CHA, +10 vs AC 16
5% crit chance for 2d10+2d6+5 damage = 1.1(2) = 2.2
75% normal chance for 1d10+1d6+5 damage = 10.5(*2) = 21
Damage = 23.2

Level 8 Bladelock TWF: +2 pact sSword, +1 sSword, hex, 18 DEX, +9 and +8 vs AC 16
5% crit chance for 4d6+6 damage = 1(*2) = 2
5% crit chance for 4d6+1 damage = 0.75
70% normal chance for 2d6+6 damage = 9.1(*2) = 18.2
65% normal chance for 2d6+1 damage = 5.2
Damage = 26.15 / 20.2 without bonus action

Level 8 Bladelock EB: hex, 18 CHA, +7 vs AC 16
5% crit chance for 2d10+2d6+4 damage = 1.05(*2) = 2.1
60% normal chance for 1d10+1d6+4 damage = 7.8(*2) = 15.6
Damage = 17.7

TWF Bladelock is 3 pts ahead with his bonus action, and is 3 pts behind without it.
Bladelock's EB is 3 pts behind the Blastlock's.

************************************************** ***************************

Level 11 Blastlock EB: 3rd blast, +2 rod, hex, 20 CHA, +11 vs AC 17
5% crit chance for 2d10+2d6+5 damage = 1.1(*3) = 3.3
75% normal chance for 1d10+1d6+5 damage = 10.5(*3) = 31.5
Damage = 34.8

Level 11 Bladelock TWF: +2 pact sSword, +2 sSword, hex, 18 DEX, +10 vs AC 17
5% crit chance for 4d6+6 damage = 1(*2) = 2
5% crit chance for 4d6+2 damage = 0.8
70% normal chance for 2d6+6 damage = 9.1(*2) = 18.2
70% normal chance for 2d6+2 damage = 6.3
Damage = 27.3 / 20.2 without bonus action

Level 11 Blastlock EB: 3rd blast, hex, 18 CHA, +8 vs AC 17
5% crit chance for 2d10+2d6+5 damage = 1.1(*3) = 3.3
60% normal chance for 1d10+1d6+5 damage = 8.4(*3) = 25.2
Damage = 28.5

Level 12 Bladelock TWF: +2 pact sSword, +2 sSword, hex, 20 DEX, 18 CHA, +11 vs AC 17
5% crit chance for 4d6+11 damage = 1.25(*2) = 2.5
5% crit chance for 4d6+2 damage = 0.8
75% normal chance for 2d6+11 damage = 13.5(*2) = 27
75% normal chance for 2d6+2 damage = 6.75
Damage = 37.05 / 29.5 without bonus action

At level 11 the Blastlock pulls ahead with his third blast, and at level 12 the Bladelock catches up again with Lifedrinker. I grouped all of these together.
TWF Bladelock is 2 pts ahead with his bonus action, and is 5 pts behind without it.
Bladelock's EB is 6 pts behind the Blastlock's.

************************************************** ***************************

Level 13 Blastlock EB: +3 rod, hex, 20 CHA, +13 vs AC 17
5% crit chance for 2d10+2d6+5 damage = 1.1(*3) = 3.3
85% normal chance for 1d10+1d6+5 damage = 11.9(*3) = 35.7
Damage = 39

Level 13 Bladelock TWF: +3 pact sSword, +2 sSword, hex, 20 DEX, 18 CHA, +13 and +12 vs AC 17
5% crit chance for 4d6+12 damage = 1.3(*2) = 2.6
5% crit chance for 4d6+2 damage = 0.8
85% normal chance for 2d6+12 damage = 16.15(*2) = 32.3
80% normal chance for 2d6+2 damage = 7.2
Damage = 42.9 / 34.9 without bonus action

Bladelock EB remains at 28.5

TWF Bladelock is 3 pts ahead with his bonus action, and is 4 pts behind without it.
Bladelock's EB is 10 pts behind the Blastlock's.

************************************************** ***************************

Level 16 Blastlock EB: +3 rod, hex, 20 CHA, +13 vs AC 18
5% crit chance for 2d10+2d6+5 damage = 1.1(*3) = 3.3
80% normal chance for 1d10+1d6+5 damage = 11.2(*3) = 33.6
Damage = 36.9

Level 16 Bladelock TWF: +3 pact sSword, +3 sSword, hex, 20 DEX, 20 CHA, +13 vs AC 18
5% crit chance for 4d6+13 damage = 1.35(*2) = 2.7
5% crit chance for 4d6+3 damage = 0.85
80% normal chance for 2d6+13 damage = 16(*2) = 32
80% normal chance for 2d6+3 damage = 8
Damage = 43.55 / 34.7 without bonus action

Level 16 Bladelock EB: hex, 20 CHA, +10 vs AC 18
5% crit chance for 2d10+2d6+5 damage = 1.1(*3) = 3.3
65% normal chance for 1d10+1d6+5 damage = 9.1(*3) = 27.3
Damage = 30.6

TWF Bladelock is 7 pts ahead with his bonus action, and is 2 pts behind without it.
Bladelock's EB is 7 pts behind the Blastlock's.

************************************************** ***************************

Level 17 Blastlock EB: 4th blast, +3 rod, hex, 20 CHA, +14 vs AC 19
5% crit chance for 2d10+2d6+5 damage = 1.1(*4) = 4.4
80% normal chance for 1d10+1d6+5 damage = 11.2(*4) = 44.8
Damage = 49.2

Bladelock TWF remains at 43.55 / 34.7 without bonus action

Level 17 Bladelock EB: 4th blast, hex, 20 CHA, +11 vs AC 19
5% crit chance for 2d10+2d6+5 damage = 1.1(*4) = 4.4
65% normal chance for 1d10+1d6+5 damage = 9.1(*4) = 36.4
Damage = 40.8

And at level 17 the TWF Bladelock finally falls behind, by 5 pts with his bonus action, and by a significant 14 pts behind without it.
Most campaigns don't even go this far, so it is very possible that you may never see a time when your Bladelock's melee damage falls behind that of a Blastlock's EB.
Bladelock's EB is 8 pts behind the Blastlock's.

As you can see, the Bladelock's melee damage stays competitive with, or better than, the Blastlock's EB all the way through level 16. At level 17, the Blastlock pulls ahead by about 5 points.
And this entire time, the Bladelock still has a good EB himself if he wants or needs it.
And remember, I didn't give the Bladelock a magic rod. If he also has one, like the Blastlock, his EB is slightly lower between levels 4-15 due to -1 to hit comparatively because of a slightly lower Cha during those levels. But that -1 to hit doesn't change things very much. Beyond that, at levels 1-3 and 16+ he would have an identical EB to the Blastlock if he also had a rod, and will only be a tiny bit behind (by a couple of points at most) during levels 4-15.

So, in summary:
No, Bladelocks do not have any crazy invocation tax.
No, Bladelocks do not suffer from damage issues.
What Bladelocks do is offer you a second combat option in melee, and that option is fully functional and viable.
The Bladelock can spend a feat to get many of the same goodies as warlocks with other Pacts, while getting something that the Other Pacts have no way to get in a melee option that rivals a Fighter through 19 levels of play.
Why some of you think this is an inferior Pact is beyond me. It is hands down the most powerful Pact available.

The bladelock is fine as it is. Not only is it fine, it is arguably superior to any other pact.

Note : that post was pre-SCAG. It still holds, although less so if you are allowed to use that book.

Tikkun

2016-08-09, 06:46 PM

Gastronomie

2016-08-09, 06:46 PM

Since there was another thread about Bladelocks recently, copy-pasting my arguments from there.

Taking the first level as a fighter and then continuing with warlock usually helps a lot. That is if you have a str warlock using a heavy weapon (or S&B?) and in heavy armor in mind.
I second... um, third... um, fourth... fifth... sixth... just, uuuuuh, whatever, I also support this statement.

Taking Great Weapon Master using V-Human and spamming Darkness + Devil's Sight for advantage is a pretty fun combo. War Caster improves your concentration for Darkness even more.

My advice is to take the Eldritch Invocation "Fiendish Vigor". This is more important than either Agonizing or Repelling Blast. This gives you unlimited False Life, meaning you always gain 8 temporal HP in-between every single combat (you can re-use False Life unlimited times, so repeat its use until you get 1d4=4). This is absolutely insane, as well as extremely under-rated. What? But Dark One's Blessing gives me temporal HP already! Yes, but you already have low HP from being a Warlock, and besides, you're not always the one who gives the final blow (even if you dealt 99% of the damage to a particular enemy, unless you're the one who killed it with the last attack, you can't gain the HP from that ability).

The Bladelock's main thing is not DPR. Everyone thinks Bladelocks are inferior versions of Fighters, but most of them are looking at only the DPR and nothing else - which is far from a "fair view". (Add how most of the time, Bladelocks will be damaging better than it says in math, 'cause of Darkness and GWM.)

The main thing about Bladelocks is their amazing versatility. At high levels they also get insane stuff like Hold Person on 4 targets, Command on 5 targets, Banishment on 2 targets, and 25 THP and 25 damage to attackers without a save. To be fair, other Warlocks also get these, but still, the fact that a Melee character has these is important. And I think I already mentioned Darkness + Devil's Sight (something only Warlocks can do).

Bladelocks can also regenerate like crazy using THP. And attacks against him have disadvantage, if you've cast Darkness on your pact weapon (and who doesn't like the idea of a guy whose greatsword is shrouded in darkness?) Not exactly a Barbarian, but he's quite a good meat shield too.

Bladelocks always have a nasty trick or two up their sleeve. They're extremely efficient at what they do. They're extremely underrated, and are a powerful class.

As for "why the Fighter makes a pact", an old character I made had it like this: the guy has already made his pact, and as his first level of progression, has been gifted the "talent" of a master swordsman (level 1 Fighter). Guy was originally heavily disabled via being nearly killed by the antagonists, so his pact started off by first fixing that problem. After he's got a hang of how to use his sword skills, the spells and stuff finally start to kick in.

At high levels, it's actually pretty interesting to use a Glaive or whatever with Great Weapon Master as well as Pole Arm Master. It depends on the DM, but by RAW it's possible to put -5/+10 on the attack you make with the "blunt side attack" of PAM, and in that case, together with advantage via Darkness and the extra damage via Lifedrinker, this thing is especially nuts.

DivisibleByZero

2016-08-09, 06:50 PM

Please read my post above and explain how a person twf'ing short swords meets the qualifications of a "pact weapon" for the Thirsting Blade and Lifedrinker invocations. As the rules stae the specific over rides the general.

Please read my post above in detail and see that only one of the weapons is a pact weapon using lifedrinker. The other is just a short sword.

If your DM tries to tell you that you are proficient with the short sword in your right hand, and simultaneously not proficient with the short sword in your left hand, then your DM is a jerk.
If your DM is indeed a jerk, just use daggers to an almost identical effect.

Tanarii

2016-08-09, 06:56 PM

Tanarii,
Not granting proficiency in the best weapons was not a reference to dual wielding; it was referencing sentient and artifact weapons, which are excluded from PoB, per RAW.Fair enough, but that's got to be such a small fraction of games that it doesn't seem like a big deal.

As for using other weapons of the same type as your PoB, the rules state:

"You are proficient with it while you wield it."

The use of "it" is singular and is specifically referencing the weapon summoned with the PoB ability. This means you aren't proficient in the weapon type, only in the PoB weapon.Personally I agree. But it's been argued many times before that being proficient is a universal ability. The argument goes: as long as you wield the PoB, you are proficient. Proficiency applies to any weapon used as long as you are proficient. Therefore, you are proficient with any weapon like your PoB while you wield your PoB. (Note: I have no idea if JC has clarified that our preference for reading this rule is correct or not yet.) Edit: Plus as DbZ points out in the post above mine, you can use a dagger in your off-hand instead of a Shortsword. 1d4 vs 1d6 on one attack isn't the end of the world.

Tikkun

2016-08-09, 07:20 PM

Sorry my DM would tell me I am proficient with the pact weapon in my right hand--which has the form of a short sword but is not--and not proficient with short sword in my right hand as I never took that proficiency. And when i changed my pact weapon to a GreatSword, he would say I am proficient in that weapon. Somehow I lost the short sword proficiency I had because I never had it. He would be right and not be a jerk. Rather I would be for insisting I was right in the face of the rules as clearly stated.

But each to their own.

DivisibleByZero

2016-08-09, 07:25 PM

And once again, you would then use a Dagger in your off Hand and lose ONE WHOLE POINT of damage on average. Big flippin deal.

Zman

2016-08-09, 07:50 PM

Bladelock is pretty inferior to Eldritch Agonizing Blast, worse with repelling blast. Essentially the best a Bladelock can do it pick up PAM as that bonus attack reall racks up additional ability mods in damage.

I recommend a few Tweaks located in my signature. It boils down too...

Pact of Blade: +1 HP/level, Medium Armor Prof.
Agonozing Blast: Only affects a target once per turn, up to wove after level 11.
Repelling Blast: Only affects a target once per turn.

If this is done a Bladelock becomes far more competitive, PAM is great, as is my added feat Dueling Master. TWF can be great if you can manage the casting restrictions and need for Warcaster.

Gastronomie

2016-08-09, 08:43 PM

Bladelock is pretty inferior to Eldritch Agonizing Blast, worse with repelling blast. Essentially the best a Bladelock can do it pick up PAM as that bonus attack reall racks up additional ability mods in damage.

The Bladelock's main thing is not DPR. Everyone thinks Bladelocks are inferior versions of Fighters, but most of them are looking at only the DPR and nothing else - which is far from a "fair view". (Add how most of the time, Bladelocks will be damaging better than it says in math, 'cause of Darkness and GWM.)

TWF can be great if you can manage the casting restrictions and need for Warcaster.Eh, War Caster is already essential for any Bladelock build anyway.

That being said, Variant Human is required to make Bladelock competitive, with all the feats required. This does mean that it's a pretty taxing option, but as I explained in my above post, it's not a weak class at all.

Also, people often forget the fact that someone needs to be the meat shield. Being a Melee character has various benefits, such as locking down opponents' movements with opprotunity attacks, taking damage instead of the Wizard (and Bladelocks, having a gigantic sack of temporary HP, don't need to worry about HP), and so on. Just comparing the DPR of Bladelocks and Blastlocks is far from a fair comparison, because they're doing completely different things.

Tikkun

2016-08-09, 08:54 PM

And it sounds like there is one of each in the party.

To paraphrase The Who from Quadrophenia : Darkness reign o'er me !!!

wilhelmdubdub

2016-08-09, 08:58 PM

Another point to make is if you are a blastlock and someone is in your face in melee you are rolling with disadvantage for your ranged spell attack. If you were the DPR of the party a smart DM would shut a blastlock down with melee combat. A bladelock can take agonizing blast also, and then pull out a pact weapon for close quarters. Or use warcaster and already have it summoned prior to battle.

Tanarii

2016-08-09, 09:37 PM

Besides, there's no real reason a bladelock can't blast when appropriate too. It only takes one invocation after all.

Malifice

2016-08-09, 10:00 PM

Sigreid

2016-08-09, 10:12 PM

Because against highly magic resistant/immune opponents the blast lock is largely screwed, where as the blade lock still has something big and potentially sharp to hit things with. I'm looking at you helm'd horror and your immunity to force damage.:smallamused:

Zman

2016-08-09, 10:14 PM

Bladelocks are perfectly awesome, but require a little system mastery to do well. A fighter dip works wonders.

Im playing one at the moment (Fiend lock + Fighter) and its fantastic.

Yeah, I feel like Warlock is one class where internal balance was lacking. Varient Human with PAM, Fighter 1 for GWF and Heavy Armor, and then Fiendlock+ is a solid build that has competitive Damage, unfortunately the other variations of Bladelock really don't cut it beyond mid levels and always run the risk of falling back on how overpoweringly good Agonizing Blast is.

Because against highly magic resistant/immune opponents the blast lock is largely screwed, where as the blade lock still has something big and potentially sharp to hit things with. I'm looking at you helm'd horror and your immunity to force damage.:smallamused:

One of my favorite enemies, haha. They are so much fun.

Unfortunately the number of enemies that fit the bill are incredibly small.

Malifice

2016-08-09, 10:15 PM

DivisibleByZero

2016-08-09, 10:19 PM

unfortunately the other variations of Bladelock really don't cut it beyond mid levels and always run the risk of falling back on how overpoweringly good Agonizing Blast is.

You keep saying that, but math and experience says that you're wrong.

Zman

2016-08-09, 10:19 PM

My bladelock with GWM and Plate does just fine.

He functions like any other GWM fighter (with the added goodness of Hex, and the ability to toss out a Fireball).

With HAM and +Temp HP on any kill, he tanks like a boss also.

I'm not saying he wouldn't do well, actually through 11th level he isn't much behind a PAMlock. Hex often benefits PAM more than GWM. Gotta love a good fireball, haha. Essentially a GWMlock achieves most of their damage potential at 5th level and at 12th the use power attack less often unless you have advantage.

And yeah, hell tank like a boss for sure.

Zman

2016-08-09, 10:20 PM

You keep saying that, but math and experience says that you're wrong.

What math? Experience in reference to what part?

DivisibleByZero

2016-08-09, 10:25 PM

What math? Experience in reference to what part?

The math that has been posted in this thread, and my experience at the table.

Zman

2016-08-09, 10:35 PM

The math that has been posted in this thread, and my experience at the table.

Ahh, Tanarii's math where he is running a Str Lock that started with 16s in Str and Cha, and never gets Warcaster or a reasonable Con for Concentration Saves yet has Hex.

Blade locks have good damage low to mid levels, but the Bladelock rarely has an advantage in damage, has to close to melee range, and is far more likely to lose concentration on Hex.

GWM and PAM really scale up DPR, but come at Bonus Action opportunity cost with Hex and feat starvation needing Warcaster.

And my experience was a Bladelock just Sunday repeatedly choosing to stay back and blast to avoid losing concentration on Hex.

DivisibleByZero

2016-08-09, 10:38 PM

No, my math for a Dex bladelock TWF with extremely similar numbers.

Zman

2016-08-09, 10:55 PM

No, my math for a Dex bladelock TWF with extremely similar numbers.

And without the bonus action, which will be required for moving Hex often, likely you could assume 50% of the time having access to your bonus attack. How does the TWF Bladelock cast Hex? Oh, on the first turn which is by default a no bonus action round, and likely a no damage round due to a reasonably encounter distance so the Bladelock loses out on damage round one in almost every scenario. Where is Warcaster taken to maintain concentration on Hex? Or cast those crucial spells mid combat? Don't forget to reduce DPR calculations for Shortsword Dagger.

You are also making assumptions about magic weapons which greatly affect DPR. I mean a +3 sword and +2 sword by level feels like a stretch.

And we can't forget the Blastlock's can do all this is from relative safety up to 300' away.

Gastronomie

2016-08-09, 10:58 PM

Hex is honestly overrated. My Bladelock has it, but he doesn't use it very often.

Malifice

2016-08-09, 11:50 PM

The math that has been posted in this thread, and my experience at the table.

Math away (actual character):

Vuman Bladelock (Fiend) 12, Fighter (Battlemaster) 3

S 16 (19)
D 8
C 14
I 8
W 12
Ch 18

Saves: Con +7, Str +9
AC: 20
HP: 112

Feats/ ASI: HAM, GWM, Warcaster, +2 Cha
Skills: Athletics +9, Perception +6, Arcana +4, Deception +9, Insight +7, Persuasion +9, Investigation +4

Class features:
Fighter: Defence F/S, Action Surge, Second wind (d10+3), Manouvers: Precise strike, Pushing attack, Riposte, sup dice d8
Warlock: 3 slots/ short rest, Dark ones blessing (16 temp HP), Dark ones luck (+1d10 to skill or save 1/ short rest), Pact boon (greatsword), Invocations (Devils sight, Agonizing blast, Thirsting blade, Lifedrinker, Beguiling influence, Mask of many faces), Fiendish resilience (resistance to non magical or silvered slashing damage), Mystic arcanum (True Seeing)

Cantrips known: Eldritch blast, Greenflame blade, Mage hand, Minor Illusion
Spells known: Fireball, Command, Hellish rebuke, Mirror image, Armor of agathys, Hex, Counterspell, Hold Monster, Misty Step, Fly, Banishment

Gear of note: Sword of life stealing (bonded, pact weapon), +1 full plate, Gauntlets of Ogre power, Rod of the pact keeper +1

Routine: Cast Hex, and True Seeing. Rest. Recover slot (or use rod). Lasts for 24 hours. Cast Armor of Agathys.
In combat: Lay on Hex and attack twice at +4(9) dealing 3d6+18(8) damage per hit. Action surge for 2 more if needed. Natural 20's deal en extra 3d6 necrotic damage. Spam precise strike to turn close misses into hits when using GWM. Spam Pushing attack to knock creatures prone for advantage and extra damage. Milk 16 Temp HP and bonus action 'cleave' attacks on a kill.
On off turns: Rely on Armor of Agathys (25 temp HP), Heavy Armor master (DR 3), resistance (half damage) to slashing damage, a constantly replenishing pool of temp HP (+16 temp HP per kill and sword of life stealing adding +3d6 on a crit), decent AC and good HP to stay in the fight. Deal tons of porcipine damage with Armor of Agathys, Riposte and Hellish rebuke to anyone that attacks me. Use second wind if actually injured. Add +1d10 to clutch save when needed.

Attacks of opportunity: Hold monster (drops Hex but works well) and Greenflame blade at will.
Mob tactics: Fireball
Enemy casters: Counterspell
Increase in tanking: Mirror image
Back up ranged attack: Eldritch blast

Tanks as good as a Barbarian, Fights as good as a fighter, has great out of combat tricks (mask of many faces, skills, command, true seeing) great at wills. Amazing short rest nova on hard to kill targets (4 x GWM attacks plus hex plus lifedrinker plus sup dice), fantastic against mobs (temp HP every round from kills and bonus action attacks like candy; also fireball).

Not seeing it as mathmatically poor at all.

BW022

2016-08-10, 12:55 AM

So it looks like I might be DMing again

...

3. Do nothing! The situation is fine because (insert reason here)

Nothing says that two characters need to be equal in damage output when played entirely differently.

An EB warlock is pretty much doomed unless some other PC in the party is going to tank -- and is able to do so effectively most of the time. Swarm the EB, put an ogre in front of him every other round, and pretty quickly his damage goes to next to nothing. A bladelock is merely trading some focus on ranged damage for some ability to function in melee. Yes, that may mean having to multi-class, having to use feats for medium armor proficiency, having to use a shield, etc.

However...

In a solo campaign, small group, or group with no other tanks... a bladelock is going to be far better than a EB. Yes, he won't do as much damage, but he'll keep enemies tied down long enough for others to take them down. If the party doesn't value this role... he can just stand aside and see how well the EB does disengaging every round while being flattened.

Yes... it is always better for DPS characters to be ranged and have a magical wall which keeps the enemies from ever attacking them. In real play... most parties need a tank character and often a secondary tank character -- especially when swarmed. Many monsters outnumber the PCs by 3 to 1 or more and it is easy to get swarmed. Even in small numbers, often you find yourself fighting in buildings, dungeons, or narrow hallways... where bad guys can easily get close to you. Or you can find yourself in a ranged duel with opponents and suddenly a 15 AC EB doesn't far as well as a 18 AC bladelock who blew a feat on medium armor.

Bladelock doesn't need balancing with an EB. It is a deliberate choice not to specialized on ranged combat so heavily. It allows some melee so that the character can off-tank. No well, but good enough so that the don't become as useless as an EB if forced into melee. Add medium armor feat and they are now pretty good.

MrFahrenheit

2016-08-10, 02:06 AM

NNescio

2016-08-10, 02:30 AM

Nothing says that two characters need to be equal in damage output when played entirely differently.

An EB warlock is pretty much doomed unless some other PC in the party is going to tank -- and is able to do so effectively most of the time. Swarm the EB, put an ogre in front of him every other round, and pretty quickly his damage goes to next to nothing. A bladelock is merely trading some focus on ranged damage for some ability to function in melee. Yes, that may mean having to multi-class, having to use feats for medium armor proficiency, having to use a shield, etc.

However...

In a solo campaign, small group, or group with no other tanks... a bladelock is going to be far better than a EB. Yes, he won't do as much damage, but he'll keep enemies tied down long enough for others to take them down. If the party doesn't value this role... he can just stand aside and see how well the EB does disengaging every round while being flattened.

Yes... it is always better for DPS characters to be ranged and have a magical wall which keeps the enemies from ever attacking them. In real play... most parties need a tank character and often a secondary tank character -- especially when swarmed. Many monsters outnumber the PCs by 3 to 1 or more and it is easy to get swarmed. Even in small numbers, often you find yourself fighting in buildings, dungeons, or narrow hallways... where bad guys can easily get close to you. Or you can find yourself in a ranged duel with opponents and suddenly a 15 AC EB doesn't far as well as a 18 AC bladelock who blew a feat on medium armor.

Bladelock doesn't need balancing with an EB. It is a deliberate choice not to specialized on ranged combat so heavily. It allows some melee so that the character can off-tank. No well, but good enough so that the don't become as useless as an EB if forced into melee. Add medium armor feat and they are now pretty good.

Repelling Blast says hi. Also, there's Darkness + Devil's Sight or the Invisibility line of spells, plus Misty Step and DDoor, in case he ever needs to GTFO.

If I were to play a straight-classed Warlock in a solo campaign (or say, as the party's primary arcanist without a Wizard around), I'd rather go Tome for the ritual casting. Plus they get a decent melee option anyway if they pick up Shillelagh and GFB/BB (GFB and BB can also be gotten via normal Warlock cantrips). Add Guidance to effectively add +2.5 avg on most (non-rushed) ability checks, and you'll get a decent well-balanced character.

Chainlock is also good for the unlimited scouting option (okay, familiars can die, but it just takes a measly 10 gp to replace one, three out of four have at-will Invis), for a more stealthy solo campaign, or to fill in the scout role if the party doesn't have one. You also sort of get to play two characters for the price of one, which is useful in case you ever go down (below 0 HP) and need someone to bring you back up (like say, a familiar stuffing a healing potion into your mouth). It's debatable whether you can get Magic Resistance, but eh, that's just cherry on the top anyway.

Spiritchaser

2016-08-10, 05:13 AM

You are also making assumptions about magic weapons which greatly affect DPR. I mean a +3 sword and +2 sword by level feels like a stretch.
.

Actually a magic weapon is one thing that I do control, and seems a very viable solution.

Its not my preference because it seems to me that to be competatve the bladelock must make more restrictive investments in an extra attribute, and that this is a problem... Again, fighter dip helps but less than a sorcerer Warlock gets with blasting...

Plus I'd like to avoid the need for MC to balance these.

Because some of the players are new and all are competative and know each other well, I want to be particularly careful that they are close in combat power. This is just as critical with the bladesinger, but there's scope to balance those with short/long test frequency.

I do appreciate all the suggestions, and I'll go through all of this again before deciding, but to hit my goal of balancing the risk and vulnerability of melee, the added mobility requirements of melee and the attendant extra skill or feat investment, I'm likely to allow charisma to be the attack stat with the pact weapon, and I'll do something about armor.

Citan

2016-08-10, 05:34 AM

To make use of GWM or Polearm Master, a Bladelock needs Strength, Dex, Con and Charisma. Yes, you can dip Fighter for Armor proficiency and or take spells that don't utilize Charisma... But that also really limits what spells are useful to you and delays your Warlock progression.

If you're not utilizing GWM or Polearm Master, you're inferior to any class that actually gets a Fighting Style. You also don't get Shield proficiency or anything but Light Armor. Again, Fighter dip fixes that, but the Bladelock shouldn't require dipping to be effective.

And if you ARE a straight Bladelock, you're not really using Repelling Blast for control. And really only the Fiend has the survivability to make a pretty decent frontline warrior.

An effective Bladelock can be made. That's absolutely true. But so many other classes do the whole Gish thing much better and with much less control over what you pick and do.
I won't intervene in the base topic being "is RAW bladelock at least as good as other Pacts". Lacking experience to judge to I'll let others discuss this.

In the case you decide that it is after all lacking a bit, I'd like to suggest one improvement that may be nice for a melee Lock, and similar to War Magic.
At lvl 7 or so, allow Bladelock to make one (and one only) Repelling Blast as a bonus action (whether he took the related Invocation or not), and justify it as "Bladelocks designed a special way to use Eldricth Blast to better control their danger zone" or something".

This can deal additional damage, doesn't break anything damage-wise, and can give a free Disengage. ;)

Gastronomie

2016-08-10, 06:27 AM

In the case you decide that it is after all lacking a bit, I'd like to suggest one improvement that may be nice for a melee Lock, and similar to War Magic.
At lvl 7 or so, allow Bladelock to make one (and one only) Repelling Blast as a bonus action (whether he took the related Invocation or not), and justify it as "Bladelocks designed a special way to use Eldricth Blast to better control their danger zone" or something".

This can deal additional damage, doesn't break anything damage-wise, and can give a free Disengage. ;)No, to be honest, this is not a good idea. This not only renders Eldritch Knight absolutely useless, it also makes Bladelocks as overpowered as hell. And worst of all, the whole point of Bladelocks, being frontline warriors, is to be the meat shield as well as lock down opponents with opprotunity attacks. Why in the world would he ever want to disengage?

I used to think Bladelocks needed tweaking. But upon using them a lot I realized that, though the fact that they need a level 1 dip in Fighter is rather "bad design", once you make that dip, Bladelocks are competitive and fun.

Citan

2016-08-10, 06:47 AM

On off turns: Rely on Armor of Agathys (25 temp HP), Heavy Armor master (DR 3), resistance (half damage) to slashing damage, a constantly replenishing pool of temp HP (+16 temp HP per kill). {...} Deal tons of porcipine damage with Armor of Agathys
Great build indeed. ;)
Although interaction between Armor of Agathys and Dark One's Blessing seems fishy to me.
Spell says very clearly that the porcupine effect triggers when you are hit "as long as you have these hit points". Meaning the hit points originating from the spell.
By RAW, when you gain THP while you already had some, you can choose either source to keep. So if you had Armor of Agathys still up and kill a creature, since you automatically gains the THP from Blessing, you have to choose either to keep the ones from AoA (and porcupine effect) or choose to "accept" those from DOB, thus overwriting the THP from AoA, thus ending the porcupine effect.

Not sure about RAI though, and I would personally also prefer an "extensive" interpretation because I always loved the Thorns auras and the like, that reward risky behaviours, and I think smart combination of features should be encouraged, not banned. ^^

No, to be honest, this is not a good idea. This not only renders Eldritch Knight absolutely useless, it also makes Bladelocks as overpowered as hell. And worst of all, the whole point of Bladelocks, being frontline warriors, is to be the meat shield as well as lock down opponents with opprotunity attacks. Why in the world would he ever want to disengage?

I used to think Bladelocks needed tweaking. But upon using them a lot I realized that, though the fact that they need a level 1 dip in Fighter is rather "bad design", once you make that dip, Bladelocks are competitive and fun.
I respect that you don't like the idea, but don't understand why though.
It absolutely does not "renders Eldricht Knight useless": EK can cast any cantrip as a bonus action, get disadvantage against their spells and get 4 attacks base, in addition to very nice buffs.

I fail to see how it would make Bladelocks overpowered: one Repelling Blast is powerful (1d10) but no more than a bonus action attack of a Bladelock (1d6+DEX+CHA if dual-wielding or 1d10+STR+CHA+GWM if conditions are met for a heavy wielder).

As for "Bladelocks, being frontline warriors, is to be the meat shield as well as lock down opponents with opprotunity attacks", it's only your personal opinion, reflecting your own playstyle.
A Dex-based Bladelock could also play hit-&-run to disable a dangerous enemy before falling back (ex: no Rogue or Monk in party, lack of ranged options in party or enemy behind cover). Especially if multiclassed to make an assassin build of some kind, but even as a single class.
Beyond that, he could also use the Repelling Blast to either "disengage an ally" by pushing away a creature from him, or in the opposite push an enemy in the range of a martial friend (Fighter/Paladin with Sentinel for example) to incite it to stay put.

Sure, you can do this (and better) by taking feats or multiclass, but the point here if I'm not mistaken is to keep the optimal Bladelock builds as standard as possible so... :)

Gastronomie

2016-08-10, 06:57 AM

Citan

2016-08-10, 07:00 AM

Depends on luck and the combat style, but Dark One's Blessing doesn't go off as often as one may think. Having all of Fiendish Vigor, Armor of Agathys and Dark One's Blessing isn't necessarily bad idea - in fact I think it's prefectly fine.
I never said that. Could you please add a little more care to what I post? :)

I totally agree that it's good to get all these features because they help survivability. I just pointed out that by RAW, you can never have more than one of them active at the same time (unless I misunderstood RAW, in which case I'd be glad to be given an explanation of why).

Just because they may not be top numbers on damage doesn't mean they fall short. An EB focused lock may be top for lock damage mut utility is where the others shine. Let the fighter, cleric, or barbarian be your meatshield and go in with a one handed weapon and use your off-hand to mix things up. Strength bladelocks can be a bit linear but if you have a Dex based bladelock hex guys for wisdom and do sleight of hand checks vs their perception to pluck their ammo, slide that backup weapon of theirs out of it's scabbard and toss it aside, snag the keys from their belt or just take the belt itself so their trousers may fall. Go with spells that don't rely on attack rolls and don't just make hazards, be a hazard!
Thanks for these many smart uses of Dex checks in the hands of a Dex bladelock. ;)

Zman

2016-08-10, 07:39 AM

Math away (actual character):

Vuman Bladelock (Fiend) 12, Fighter (Battlemaster) 3

S 16 (19)
D 8
C 14
I 8
W 12
Ch 18

Saves: Con +7, Str +9
AC: 20
HP: 112

Feats/ ASI: HAM, GWM, Warcaster, +2 Cha
Skills: Athletics +9, Perception +6, Arcana +4, Deception +9, Insight +7, Persuasion +9, Investigation +4

Class features:
Fighter: Defence F/S, Action Surge, Second wind (d10+3), Manouvers: Precise strike, Pushing attack, Riposte, sup dice d8
Warlock: 3 slots/ short rest, Dark ones blessing (16 temp HP), Dark ones luck (+1d10 to skill or save 1/ short rest), Pact boon (greatsword), Invocations (Devils sight, Agonizing blast, Thirsting blade, Lifedrinker, Beguiling influence, Mask of many faces), Fiendish resilience (resistance to non magical or silvered slashing damage), Mystic arcanum (True Seeing)

Cantrips known: Eldritch blast, Greenflame blade, Mage hand, Minor Illusion
Spells known: Fireball, Command, Hellish rebuke, Mirror image, Armor of agathys, Hex, Counterspell, Hold Monster, Misty Step, Fly, Banishment

Gear of note: Sword of life stealing (bonded, pact weapon), +1 full plate, Gauntlets of Ogre power, Rod of the pact keeper +1

Routine: Cast Hex, and True Seeing. Rest. Recover slot (or use rod). Lasts for 24 hours. Cast Armor of Agathys.
In combat: Lay on Hex and attack twice at +4(9) dealing 3d6+18(8) damage per hit. Action surge for 2 more if needed. Natural 20's deal en extra 3d6 necrotic damage. Spam precise strike to turn close misses into hits when using GWM. Spam Pushing attack to knock creatures prone for advantage and extra damage. Milk 16 Temp HP and bonus action 'cleave' attacks on a kill.
On off turns: Rely on Armor of Agathys (25 temp HP), Heavy Armor master (DR 3), resistance (half damage) to slashing damage, a constantly replenishing pool of temp HP (+16 temp HP per kill and sword of life stealing adding +3d6 on a crit), decent AC and good HP to stay in the fight. Deal tons of porcipine damage with Armor of Agathys, Riposte and Hellish rebuke to anyone that attacks me. Use second wind if actually injured. Add +1d10 to clutch save when needed.

Attacks of opportunity: Hold monster (drops Hex but works well) and Greenflame blade at will.
Mob tactics: Fireball
Enemy casters: Counterspell
Increase in tanking: Mirror image
Back up ranged attack: Eldritch blast

Tanks as good as a Barbarian, Fights as good as a fighter, has great out of combat tricks (mask of many faces, skills, command, true seeing) great at wills. Amazing short rest nova on hard to kill targets (4 x GWM attacks plus hex plus lifedrinker plus sup dice), fantastic against mobs (temp HP every round from kills and bonus action attacks like candy; also fireball).

Not seeing it as mathmatically poor at all.

Solid character. MCing and starting as Fighter really boosts the Bladelock as even a level of Fighter patches the weaknesses of a Bladelock, Con Prof and Heavy armor are great. Varient Human or a 1st level feat Houserule are absolutely critical for a Bladelock.

I'm curious in which order did you take the feats, I'm assuming in order so HAM at 1st, GWM at 7th, Warcaster at 11th, and +2 Cha at 15th. Or maybe you dipped Fighter and got to Warlock 4 or even 6 for GWM earlier. But man, Warcaster comes late, didn't you have Concentration problems early?

I would like some clarification on your use of Armor of Agathas, Dark Ones Blessing, and Sword of Lifestealing all grant Temp HP and each time youl have to choose if you keep the remaining Temp HP or replace them in whole with the new source, they do not stack and the RAW is pretty clear on that. So Sword of Life Stealin on a Crit doesn't stack with Dark Ones Blessing, and neither can be used to maintain or replenish the Armor of Agathys so you should only be porcupine for two isn hits.

Also, since you are a huge proponent of the two short rest with six to eight encounter adventuring day, you are burning quote a few spell slots early, I mean you have three per Rest and burn two of them, rest, using one of your two short rests, and then are using a pre combat AoA buff. Or is your DMing allowing a free buffing Short Rest before the day starts giving a substantial boost to a Short Rest based class like Warlock, which you should know inflates the power of it.

I think this is a cool build, but think it comes online late, gets feats awefully late, and without VHuman or a 1st level bonus feat Houserule and Fighter to patch the build it really doesn't reach this potential. I mean, even without the GoOP to hit suffers and let is even more ASI starved. Also, I believe you are being used to abuse a pre day Short Rest and are not playing Temp HP correctly which inflates the power of this build.

I'm curious to your pure Bladelock version of this without VHuman or at least without Dipping Fighter.

Gastronomie

2016-08-10, 08:11 AM

I never said that. Could you please add a little more care to what I post? :)Well, yeah, you never said it was a bad idea, but you said it "seems fishy to me", so I just explained my thoughts on the matter on how I don't think it's really fishy. I didn't mean to be mean, and if it felt like I was, sorry about that.

Malifice

2016-08-10, 09:02 AM

Great build indeed. ;)
Although interaction between Armor of Agathys and Dark One's Blessing seems fishy to me.
Spell says very clearly that the porcupine effect triggers when you are hit "as long as you have these hit points". Meaning the hit points originating from the spell.
By RAW, when you gain THP while you already had some, you can choose either source to keep. So if you had Armor of Agathys still up and kill a creature, since you automatically gains the THP from Blessing, you have to choose either to keep the ones from AoA (and porcupine effect) or choose to "accept" those from DOB, thus overwriting the THP from AoA, thus ending the porcupine effect.

Not sure about RAI though, and I would personally also prefer an "extensive" interpretation because I always loved the Thorns auras and the like, that reward risky behaviours, and I think smart combination of features should be encouraged, not banned. ^^

I respect that you don't like the idea, but don't understand why though.
It absolutely does not "renders Eldricht Knight useless": EK can cast any cantrip as a bonus action, get disadvantage against their spells and get 4 attacks base, in addition to very nice buffs.

I fail to see how it would make Bladelocks overpowered: one Repelling Blast is powerful (1d10) but no more than a bonus action attack of a Bladelock (1d6+DEX+CHA if dual-wielding or 1d10+STR+CHA+GWM if conditions are met for a heavy wielder).

As for "Bladelocks, being frontline warriors, is to be the meat shield as well as lock down opponents with opprotunity attacks", it's only your personal opinion, reflecting your own playstyle.
A Dex-based Bladelock could also play hit-&-run to disable a dangerous enemy before falling back (ex: no Rogue or Monk in party, lack of ranged options in party or enemy behind cover). Especially if multiclassed to make an assassin build of some kind, but even as a single class.
Beyond that, he could also use the Repelling Blast to either "disengage an ally" by pushing away a creature from him, or in the opposite push an enemy in the range of a martial friend (Fighter/Paladin with Sentinel for example) to incite it to stay put.

Sure, you can do this (and better) by taking feats or multiclass, but the point here if I'm not mistaken is to keep the optimal Bladelock builds as standard as possible so... :)

The AOA is for those first few rounds before you kill stuff. Even with DR 3 from HAM and half damage from slashing it tends to drop after a few rounds.

Then you start milking temp HP from killing stuff. Those temp HP go a long way when combined with HAM and half damage from slashing (or bludgeoning or piercing your choice).

There are also the lols when your DM hits you for 25 points of damage. You reduce it by 3, halve it for resistance to 11 damage, it only takes off your temp HP and then you deal 25 cold damage in return and use your reaction to spam a hellish rebuke for 6d10 fire damage. Then he hits you again and you again reduce it to 11 and deal 25 more cold damage.

You take 22 damage (not even whittling away all your temp HP and leaving you unharmed) whereas normally youd have taken 50 and be at half HP. In addition youve dealt 6d10+50 damage in return.

And now it's your turn.

georgie_leech

2016-08-10, 09:06 AM

Question, why do people say that the choice of Pact is the Warlock subclass? :smallconfused:

Tanarii

2016-08-10, 09:48 AM

The thing to remember is that a bladelock is still a warlock. Unless the PC MCs, he's not going to be comparable in melee to any of the pure martial classes. He's more akin to a valor bard, frankly (just without the medium armor).this is the thing most people seem to overlook. Mostly because ...

And worst of all, the whole point of Bladelocks, being frontline warriors, is to be the meat shield as well as lock down opponents with opprotunity attacks. Why in the world would he ever want to disengage?they are making this mistake. Bladelocks are not designed to be frontline warriors, either primary or secondary.

They are designed to be primary full casters with some secondary melee capabilities when melee comes to them. Just as a EK is a primary frontline warrior with some secondary magical AoE/ranged attacks & defenses.

If you want a frontline 'Bladelock' you're talking about a multiclass GISH, not a pure Bladelock. (Edit: like Malifice's awesome build. I like it bro!)

RSP

2016-08-10, 10:02 AM

Maliface,
Not a criticism of your play style, but that burns through your spells very quickly and isn't maintainable (though fun when it happens).

I only point it out because my main issue with playing a bladelock was how rote they were in combat. Prior to 11th, you have 2 slots and are pretty much stuck with Hex and/or AoA to start. And whereas everyone loves to plan for a fight, depending on your table, this might not happen so much.

I went the vhuman fighter starting route as well, took Shield Master rather than HAM (I originally thought I'd go HAM but didn't like that it's useless against magic weapons. Side note: why shouldn't HAM work against magic weapons when you're wearing magic armor?), which has been fun. I like Hexing an enemy's ability to resist my shield bash shoves.

I go fun over optimized and ended up getting bored with how combat would go: Hex+attack, followed by Shield Bash knock down+attack. However, if you include AoA to this you're out of spells in 1 fight and, even with Con proficiency, front lining=hits which = concentration checks.

At lower levels particularly, you aren't maintaining Hex very long (and at higher levels you tend to run into big hits that up the DC a bit more frequently). I stopped using it all together awhile ago d/t how often it dropped. Though to be fair, this is also because this character is being used in OotA, so Protrction from Evil and Good wins out as my concentration casting most times d/t creature types we're encountering.

I haven't played a straight bladelock, so take my opinions with that caveat, but they just seem made for multiclassing.

Someone pointed out earlier that bladelocks are "full casters" which I don't know if I really agree with. The play style lends itself to use up the same spells repeatedly so even if you are doing the recommended 2 short rests a day, all six of your castings are either Hex or AoA. They just don't really get the feel of a full caster IMO; having spells like Rebuke and Counterspell is nice but boy they just eat through your resources quickly and you feel less like a "full caster" when the cleric or wizard just keep trucking along all day long with a bunch of options for their castings, which is only exacerbated if you don't take a couple short rests throughout the day.

Anyway, didn't mean to call you out Maliface, just using your example to point out the lack of spell casting issue. Warlocks are an interesting alternative to traditional casters but I don't think they hold up.

Gastronomie

2016-08-10, 10:09 AM

they are making this mistake. Bladelocks are not designed to be frontline warriors, either primary or secondary.

They are designed to be primary full casters with some secondary melee capabilities when melee comes to them. Just as a EK is a primary frontline warrior with some secondary magical AoE/ranged attacks & defenses.

If you want a frontline 'Bladelock' you're talking about a multiclass GISH, not a Bladelock.Ehhhhhhhhh, that's not how I see it. Of course this is a matter of personal preference and "how much you wanna invest in melee stuff", but still. Or, oh, rather, this is a problem that originates from how we see the word "Bladelock" differently.

The reason why I argue Bladelocks are melee fighters is because I can speak only based on personal experience. I have a tendency to prefer melee characters over ranged blasters, the reason being that I like my characters getting bloodied. Unless my character takes a good amount of damage, I can't feel the thrill of battle. I prefer to stay in the frontlines and take the damage, so that I get the sense of "being in a fight".

Since I want to make a "tank", my Bladelock build, starting level 1 with Fighter, is not a "pure Bladelock". As you say, it is a "gish", Fighter 1/ Warlock X.

But for me, for all this time, I was thinking that this "Fighter 1/Warlock X" build is the definition of "Bladelock" (the reason being that without the Fighter dip, the Bladelock loses the charm that is the reason why I love the build so much).

So here, we're talking about the same word, except with different definitions, which is resulting in our disagreement. Of course it results in a disagreement. But I think I figured the problem out.

My personal opinion is that without the fighter dip, the Bladelock loses its charm. At least, the sort of charm that grasped my heart. But it depends on who uses it.

Millstone85

2016-08-10, 10:45 AM

Question, why do people say that the choice of Pact is the Warlock subclass? :smallconfused:I think perhaps you just answered your own question. What you meant to ask is "Why do people say that the choice of pact boon is the warlock subclass?", yet you instead referred to that feature as if it were the pact itself.

We probably make that mistake because each boon is called "Pact of the X" and because it visually defines the character more than the patron does.

Gastronomie

2016-08-10, 10:50 AM

I think perhaps you just answered your own question. What you meant to ask is "Why do people say that the choice of pact boon is the warlock subclass?", yet you instead referred to that feature as if it were the pact itself.

We probably make that mistake because each boon is called "Pact of the X" and because it visually defines the character more than the patron does.Not just visually, but also in terms of "what the guy can do in/out of combat".

Most abilities that come from Patrons are, while useful, mainly generic, and don't give the character a certain "job in the party" on their own. Pact Boon abilities are much more defining.

Millstone85

2016-08-10, 11:26 AM

Most abilities that come from Patrons are, while useful, mainly generic, and don't give the character a certain "job in the party" on their own. Pact Boon abilities are much more defining.You have a point. While patrons more closely follow the expected format of a subclass, with new features being automatically acquired at this and that level without invocation economy, the boons might be mechanically more significant. Also, it seems to me that blade/tome/chain is basically a fighter/mage/rogue choice.

Although really, I like to think there are nine warlock subclasses, with all combinations of patron and boon.

gfishfunk

2016-08-10, 11:31 AM

1. Fix the problem with a magical polearm or an amulet/demonic boon that grants +2 strength, or even more at high level, or a belt of DM fiat.

2. Add invocations that give a bonus to hit, or add a debuff to blade strikes, or even a fighting style

3. Do nothing! The situation is fine because (insert reason here)

Do nothing. The situation is fine.

Bladelocks are not able to NOT do damage. If the bladlock is wasting time closing in, the character CAN spam cantrips to do some damage. There are other things that make Bladelocks useable in melee without much trouble, such as Mage Armor through invocation.

Really, its just a specific Gish build. Nothing wrong with it. Melee attacks with spells to supplement.

Tanarii

2016-08-10, 11:37 AM

So here, we're talking about the same word, except with different definitions, which is resulting in our disagreement. Of course it results in a disagreement. But I think I figured the problem out.Absolutely. But your definition isn't something the Pact of the Blade Boon, by itself, provides.

It's possible to optimize Pact of the Blade Boon with Infernal Pact (for Dark One's Blessing), Armor of Agathys, and invocations for at-will Mage Armor and False Life. Then it can hold it's own as a short-term, secondary-in-emergencies, front line melee guy. (Edit: Or obviously you can multi-class and make them a primary front liner, if that's your goal.)

IMO what Pact of the Blade Boon (by itself) provides is a backup method of dealing out damage (and OAs) when melee comes to you in close quarters. Sometimes you just can't drop all your spells / features on trying to get out of dodge and kite when that happens. Especially in a Dungeon. A Blastlock can be screwed in that situation, left with a choice between sticking them with a dagger for 1d4+Dex or EB at disadvantage, using Dodge and trying to stay unnoticed, or using Disengage and trying to make a run for it alone, abandoning the party to it's fate. Basically, bladelocks have more options.

georgie_leech

2016-08-10, 11:39 AM

Not just visually, but also in terms of "what the guy can do in/out of combat".

Most abilities that come from Patrons are, while useful, mainly generic, and don't give the character a certain "job in the party" on their own. Pact Boon abilities are much more defining.

You have a point. While patrons more closely follow the expected format of a subclass, with new features being automatically acquired at this and that level without invocation economy, the boons might be mechanically more significant. Also, it seems to me that blade/tome/chain is basically a fighter/mage/rogue choice.

Although really, I like to think there are nine warlock subclasses, with all combinations of patron and boon.

It's not the pact boon itself though that gives the features, it's the invocations they give access to. Do people looking at the 4 Elements monk really see a bunch of subclasses instead of one, because you can select different abilities to build a character around? Do the different Circles mean that Land Druid isn't a subclass, but Arctic Druid is, Forest Druid is...? :smallconfused:

I'm not saying that I think the boons are bad or boring or anything, it just seems odd to me that people treat them as the default keystone to build around, instead of treating it as... well, a boon, to a character already intended for doing other things. As these threads show, a bladelock is still a Warlock first, and doesn't really shine as a melee without multiclassing. That to me points to an ability that can be a focus, but on its own definitely isn't.

EDIT:
Absolutely. But your definition isn't something the Pact of the Blade Boon, by itself, provides.

It's possible to optimize Pact of the Blade Boon with Infernal Pact (for Dark One's Blessing), Armor of Agathys, and invocations for at-will Mage Armor and False Life. Then it can hold it's own as a short-term, secondary-in-emergencies, front line melee guy. (Edit: Or obviously you can multi-class and make them a primary front liner, if that's your goal.)

IMO what Pact of the Blade Boon (by itself) provides is a backup method of dealing out damage (and OAs) when melee comes to you in close quarters. Sometimes you just can't drop all your spells / features on trying to get out of dodge and kite when that happens. Especially in a Dungeon. A Blastlock can be screwed in that situation, left with a choice between sticking them with a dagger for 1d4+Dex or EB at disadvantage, using Dodge and trying to stay unnoticed, or using Disengage and trying to make a run for it alone, abandoning the party to it's fate. Basically, bladelocks have more options.

What this guy said.

CursedRhubarb

2016-08-10, 12:21 PM

a bladelock is still a Warlock first, and doesn't really shine as a melee without multiclassing.

If you want to shine, yeah a MC dip may be desired. But pure bladelocks can be great and deadly on their own. Like a Brown Recluse bite you you don't notice for an hour or two.

They can really be great as utility fighters due to their number of options. If wading into the melee all shiny and loud; using every turn to poke or bonk something is more your thing; a Fighter, Cleric, Palain may be the hammer you need.

ZX6Rob

2016-08-10, 12:25 PM

I'm kicking around a little homebrew idea in my head right now that I kind of like.

The "SCAG Cantrips", Green-Flame Blade and Booming Blade, get a lot of love around here, and a lot of that is because they're great ways to allow non-fighter classes to keep up in the damage arena. I'm toying with changing around the Pact of the Blade to work more like those cantrips, via an invocation. Basically, what I'd like to try is:

Change the pact blade feature so that it uses CHA for attack/damage (which provides an incentive for the bladelock to enter into melee instead of using his blast and an early-level slight damage boost over the ranged option).
The pact blade/weapon must take the form of a melee weapon, and regardless of form (you can shape it however you like) it deals 1d10 Force damage, has a reach of 5 feet, and counts as magical for the purposes of overcoming resistance.
The weapon exists in a quasi-real state, and disappears if it is more than 5 feet away from you. You can draw it from the ether using your object interaction (does not require a bonus action).
Alter the Thirsting Blade invocation. Instead, the invocation adds 1d10 Force damage to a successful attack with the pact weapon. At 11th, it adds 2d10, and at 17th, 3d10.
Remove the Lifedrinker invocation, since it's no longer needed -- its damage-boosting functionality has been subsumed into the Thirsting Blade and Pact Blade items.

There. Now your bladelock and blastlock deal identical damage numbers whether they're in melee combat or not, the blade feels like a cool, special, magical weapon that can't be replicated by multiclassing, and we reduce the bladelock's dependence on non-primary stats, making it so he can focus on CHA and CON to be as effective as his ranged counterpart.

I'm sure someone here will be able to tear some holes in this, but off the top of my head, it feels like it'd work okay.

BigONotation

2016-08-10, 12:40 PM

I made one change to Pact of the Blade: I added an Invocation that allows the casting of Hex for free during combat.

I feel this makes them competitive.

Xetheral

2016-08-10, 12:50 PM

Much of what had been said here in this thread is wrong.

Someone was kind enough above to show, via simple math, how a Str bladelock competes with (or is strictly better than) a blastlock through most of his career.
The same is true of a Dex build.

The bladelock is fine as it is. Not only is it fine, it is arguably superior to any other pact.

Note : that post was pre-SCAG. It still holds, although less so if you are allowed to use that book.

Your damage analysis has some problems. First, at level 1 and level 2, warlocks don't have their pact boon yet, so aren't proficient with shortswords at all. At level 3 and beyond, you're using a houserule to provide proficiency with an offhand shortsword. At level 8 and beyond, you're assuming the Bladelock has an extra magic item over what the Blastlock gets. Without your proficiency houserule, the offhand weapon has to be a dagger, and there is no longer a supply a "obsolete" pact shortsword to move to the offhand. Even if one were lucky enough to find both magical shortswords and magical daggers, the blastlock still would have an additional magic item to compensate. At levels 12 and 16, you're glossing over the fact that the blastlock has spent fewer ASIs.

At all levels, you're ignoring that the liklihood of keeping hex up is significantly reduced for the bladelock, in direct proportion to how often he can use his (slightly) superior damage. In other words, if he happens to not be suffering melee attacks and more frequently losing hex, then he's gaining no benefit from his pact features and invocations (and is, by your own analysis, doing somewhat inferior damage with EB). Even if the bladelock seeks out melee combat in order to use his boon and invocations, there is still the problem that he has to spend some rounds getting into melee, and on those rounds he both loses his damage advantage from melee and suffers his damage penalty on EB. Finally, every time he has to move hex, your bladelock has to take the no-bonus-action damage, which is always inferior to a blastlock's EB, further diminishing any damage advantage.

Your invocation analysis is also flawed, because a smaller proportion of the Chain and Tome pacts' benefits come from their invocations. The opportunity costs of skipping those invocations is therefore much lower than the opportunity cost of skipping thirsting blade and lifedrinker. Accordingly, Chain and Tome warlocks have more competing choices, hence the common reference to thirsting blade and lifedrinker as taxes.

All that said, even if we ignore my objections and take your analysis at face value, there is still the problem that the bladelock has spent it's pact boon, two invocations, and 2 ASIs in order to have an additional option in combat that provides comparable damage to, and competes for actions with, EB, an option they already possess. Sure, your bladelock is just in good in melee as at range, but it took a huge fraction of their resources to do it, and the only situation where it is a notable advanatge over EB is if they're stuck in melee.

Meanwhile, for a similar investment, chain and tome warlocks have added completely new functionality to their characters that doesn't compete with EB. That's why many people view bladelocks as an inferior choice outside of dedicated multiclass frontline builds.

Tanarii

2016-08-10, 01:16 PM

YSure, your bladelock is just in good in melee as at range, but it took a huge fraction of their resources to do it, and the only situation where it is a notable advanatge over EB is if they're stuck in melee.Which is, IMO and as I've said, the entire purpose of the Pact of the Blade Boon. To provide an advantage over EB when stuck in melee. Or, to put it another way, when being NOT stuck in melee requires a significant dedication of resources & party manpower, along with significant tactical & mechanical disadvantages, that it's a subpar option.

Basically, you can take your choice as a Warlock:
1) direct resources & strategies to being less subpar (offensively and defensively) in melee, covering a weakness.
2) direct resources & strategies to avoiding being in melee in the first place, covering a weakness.
3) direct resources & strategies to something else entirely, accepting the weakness.

Pact of the Blade Boon addresses some of the offensive aspect of option #1. Other class features and spells also do the same.

Tikkun

2016-08-10, 01:32 PM

The reality is that Warlocks have 3 or 4 interesting skills that come online pretty quick. These are the cantrip Eldritch Blast and it's accompanying Invocation Agonizing Blast; the Devil's Sight invocation ; the Repelling Blast Invocation--again an Eldritch Blast accompaniment; the first level spells Armour of Agathys, Hellish Rebuke and Hex, and; the spell slot regeneration on a short rest. One could argue that the Chain/Tome boons are unique enough though they can be replicated by some feats or other classes.

By level 5 the Warlock has mostly 'shot' his/her load.

I would suggest that the Warlock is really the penultimate multi-class class. Add a level or 2 of fighter and you have a bladelock ( though level 11 EK/Warlock 9 would be a far superior build ); add some Warlock to a Paladin for a close combatant with a nice ranged component; same with a lore or valor Bard; toss some warlock onto a Sorcerer for some major magical damage dealing. In each case the Warlock complements the MC. Perhaps that is its true function? Feel free to disagree.

Tanarii

2016-08-10, 01:48 PM

By level 5 the Warlock has mostly 'shot' his/her load.I don't see how that's any more or less true for any other class. All of the classes are fairly front-loaded, with the expectation that you'll quickly ramp up through level 5, with a big bump at level 5. After which it should be a slow but steady increase through the top levels. 6 uses of your top level spell per day through level 10 is a pretty good reason to go to level 10 (and actually better than other full-casters). Then 1 use per day of each level 6+ spell (same as any other other full-caster) is a good reason to keep crawling up the class.

Multiclassing adds power through more low level flexibility. If it synergizes well with the added mid to high level abilities, it's also adding power based on enhancing those abilities as opposed to just increasing them directly.

DivisibleByZero

2016-08-10, 02:17 PM

, there is still the problem that the bladelock has spent it's pact boon, two invocations, and 2 ASIs in order to have an additional option in combat that provides comparable damage to, and competes for actions with, EB, an option they already possess. Sure, your bladelock is just in good in melee as at range, but it took a huge fraction of their resources to do it, and the only situation where it is a notable advanatge over EB is if they're stuck in melee.

Meanwhile, for a similar investment, chain and tome warlocks have added completely new functionality to their characters that doesn't compete with EB. That's why many people view bladelocks as an inferior choice outside of dedicated multiclass frontline builds.

And you clearly miss the entire point of Bladelock.
The point isn't that it needed to be equally as adept at DPR than a Blastlock (although that is true) by spending character resources.
The point was to create a full caster Gish that can function and compete right out of the box. That goal was attained.
The fact that you don't personally see the point of that goal in the face of every Warlock's EB doesn't change that this was indeed the goal, nor does it change that the goal was attained.
You might see Bladelock as a waste, but anyone that wants to play an arcane Gish has the option to do so without multiclassing and without giving up casting power. Those people don't see it as a waste. Those people are extremely pleased with the Pact. In spite of all of the naysayers' complaints, the fact is that the Pact works perfectly well at what it was designed to do.

I mean, you're taking the best at-will blaster in the game, who also happens to be a full caster, and complaining that his Gish option takes up too many resources.
Ummm.... THIS IS BY DESIGN. To make it cost any less, and I mean ANY less, would be horribly, terribly, and brokenly OP. I mean, he's still the best at-will blaster in the game. He's still a full caster.
The fact that he actually has a competitive and meaningful Gish option should be a point of happiness, no matter if it cost him every single character choice he theoretically had to make it good.
It doesn't cost all that. It costs a little bit of that.
You should be thanking the designers, not complaining. They actually got this one right.

Sir cryosin

2016-08-10, 03:54 PM

Give medium armor with the blade pact boon then give a fighting style through invocations. These are some of the things you get through a fighter dip. Giving a fighter style can't come on tell lv3 were you pick the blade pact. I don't think that the bladelock needs much more. For fear of giving to much.

mgshamster

2016-08-10, 04:29 PM

RSP

2016-08-10, 05:04 PM

DR then Resistance. The formula is correct.

Xetheral

2016-08-10, 05:12 PM

Which is, IMO and as I've said, the entire purpose of the Pact of the Blade Boon. To provide an advantage over EB when stuck in melee. Or, to put it another way, when being NOT stuck in melee requires a significant dedication of resources & party manpower, along with significant tactical & mechanical disadvantages, that it's a subpar option.

Basically, you can take your choice as a Warlock:
1) direct resources & strategies to being less subpar (offensively and defensively) in melee, covering a weakness.
2) direct resources & strategies to avoiding being in melee in the first place, covering a weakness.
3) direct resources & strategies to something else entirely, accepting the weakness.

Pact of the Blade Boon addresses some of the offensive aspect of option #1. Other class features and spells also do the same.

You do realize that when feats are in play, Crossbow Expert by itself completely negates the offensive disadvantage of being stuck in melee, right? (And Bladelocks receive zero defensive melee benefits.) How is that at all competitive to spending your boon, 2 invocations, 2 ASIs/Feats, and a magic weapon or two to do the same thing?

And you clearly miss the entire point of Bladelock.
The point isn't that it needed to be equally as adept at DPR than a Blastlock (although that is true) by spending character resources.
The point was to create a full caster Gish that can function and compete right out of the box. That goal was attained.
The fact that you don't personally see the point of that goal in the face of every Warlock's EB doesn't change that this was indeed the goal, nor does it change that the goal was attained.
You might see Bladelock as a waste, but anyone that wants to play an arcane Gish has the option to do so without multiclassing and without giving up casting power. Those people don't see it as a waste. Those people are extremely pleased with the Pact. In spite of all of the naysayers' complaints, the fact is that the Pact works perfectly well at what it was designed to do.

I mean, you're taking the best at-will blaster in the game, who also happens to be a full caster, and complaining that his Gish option takes up too many resources.
Ummm.... THIS IS BY DESIGN. To make it cost any less, and I mean ANY less, would be horribly, terribly, and brokenly OP. I mean, he's still the best at-will blaster in the game. He's still a full caster.
The fact that he actually has a competitive and meaningful Gish option should be a point of happiness, no matter if it cost him every single character choice he theoretically had to make it good.
It doesn't cost all that. It costs a little bit of that.
You should be thanking the designers, not complaining. They actually got this one right.

A caster who can fight in melee is not a Gish by any definition I'm familiar with. A Gish is a character for whom it is advantageous to fight in melee. I have shown that your DPR analysis overstates the damage benefits of being in melee and understates the resources required to do it. Accordingly, under the limitations you put forth in your analysis (no feats, no multiclass, no houserules, etc.), a bladelock does at best similar damage in melee that a blastlock can do at range. (And note that Bladelock's only advantages over a Blastlock in melee are damage-based.) That is not a gish.

I do not doubt that many people are pleased with the Bladelock, and I never said anything to the contrary. What I'm trying to explain to you is why other people don't like the pact and consider it an inferior choice, people whose opinions on the matter you explicitly claimed were wrong.

DivisibleByZero

2016-08-10, 05:19 PM

A caster who can fight in melee is not a Gish by any definition I'm familiar with. A Gish is a character for whom it is advantageous to fight in melee. I have shown that your DPR analysis overstates the damage benefits of being in melee and understates the resources required to do it.

Advantageous? That isn't the requirement for a gish.
Nice try though.
And you have shown nothing but your opinion.
Nice try again.

Tanarii

2016-08-10, 05:28 PM

You do realize that when feats are in play, Crossbow Expert by itself completely negates the offensive disadvantage of being stuck in melee, right? (And Bladelocks receive zero defensive melee benefits.) How is that at all competitive to spending your boon, 2 invocations, 2 ASIs/Feats, and a magic weapon or two to do the same thing?No, because I don't generally play with feats, so I don't know them well enough to have memorized that one named 'Crossbow Expert' removes the penalty for using a magical ranged attack against an adjacent enemy. That's ... pretty sad. Sounds like another Sharpshooter/Spell Sniper-type feat that removes interesting tactical play.

And it's 1 boon & 1 invocation vs 1 of 2 ASIs, to be on par before upper-mid levels. That's a fair cost consideration for a player to be making. I agree that it starts to become more negligible for upper-mid to high level play, when it becomes 1 boon & 2 invocations & 1-2 of 3-4 ASIs, vs 1 of 3-4 ASIs.

A caster who can fight in melee is not a Gish by any definition I'm familiar with. A Gish is a character for whom it is advantageous to fight in melee.Agreed. I wouldn't call a Bladelock a GISH. But then I hew to the old-school definition of GISH: a physical (usually melee) attacker that uses spells to self-buff.

mgshamster

2016-08-10, 05:31 PM

DR then Resistance. The formula is correct.

Where can I find that (page number)?

ZX6Rob

2016-08-10, 06:00 PM

And you clearly miss the entire point of Bladelock.
The point isn't that it needed to be equally as adept at DPR than a Blastlock (although that is true) by spending character resources.
The point was to create a full caster Gish that can function and compete right out of the box.
...
You should be thanking the designers, not complaining. They actually got this one right.

Well... Judging by the not-exactly-infrequent discussion we have around here regarding the Blade Pact, it's not exactly perfect.

The problem is, the Blade Pact Warlock falls into the same bin as the Beastmaster ranger. That is, technically functional, but unappealing in play. The Beastmaster, for example, can be shown to keep up with martial classes' average damage per round, and even has a few options for companions that exceed that in some cases (poisonous giant snakes, for example). The issue isn't from raw numbers and damage alone, it's that the mechanics used to achieve those numbers and implement the class don't feel very good, or they break verisimilitude somehow. The pet behaves "robotically" because you sacrifice your whole action to attack with it. Or, in the case of the Blade Pact Warlock, you get a viable melee option, but the fact that it doesn't do very much that your already-existing class abilities don't makes it feel like a trap option or a dud. The fact that you can show how the numbers balance out is fine, but it doesn't feel like a boon.

You reach out with your mind, seeking the forbidden knowledge of ancient powers beyond the stars, powers beyond your comprehension, and are rewarded with a shining, obsidian blade, covered in glowing, red sigils in an indecipherable tongue. You can feel its weight in your hands, a gift of power and a sign of favor from your unknowable patron...

... but you proceed to never use it because the magic laser beam he already gave you is just as good, really, and you don't have to get up in anyone's ugly face to use it. A pact boon isn't a whole subclass, but it is kind of an important feature, and is intended to be a physical manifestation of your patron's favor. To have one that feels underwhelming compared to something that all Warlocks can get anyway makes for a dissatisfying player experience, regardless of how average DPR numbers come out.

So, I would contend that they got the numbers right, mostly -- it still takes some effort and a fair number of your available invocations and spells to make it work, but you can get there. Whether or not this is an acceptable cost for the benefits granted is up for discussion, I suppose. But, they didn't nail the feeling of being armed with a weapon of otherworldly and dangerous power.

I know, I know, we can argue about those assertions until the cows come home, because now I'm talking about subjective qualities like "feeling" and so on. That said, though, I can tell just from reading this thread that I'm not the only person who feels this way.

Tanarii

2016-08-10, 06:44 PM

Xetheral

2016-08-10, 07:12 PM

Advantageous? That isn't the requirement for a gish.
Nice try though.
And you have shown nothing but your opinion.
Nice try again.

I have a hard time seeing how a character who gets little to no advantage from fighting in melee can be a gish. (And apparently Tanarii agrees with me, see above.) What definition of Gish are you using?

I have shown, level by level, several mistakes in your damage analysis. If you disagree, could you please state which objections you disagree with, and why, so that I can write a meaningful reply?

No, because I don't generally play with feats, so I don't know them well enough to have memorized that one named 'Crossbow Expert' removes the penalty for using a magical ranged attack against an adjacent enemy. That's ... pretty sad. Sounds like another Sharpshooter/Spell Sniper-type feat that removes interesting tactical play.

And it's 1 boon & 1 invocation vs 1 of 2 ASIs, to be on par before upper-mid levels. That's a fair cost consideration for a player to be making. I agree that it starts to become more negligible for upper-mid to high level play, when it becomes 1 boon & 2 invocations & 1-2 of 3-4 ASIs, vs 1 of 3-4 ASIs.

Agreed. I wouldn't call a Bladelock a GISH. But then I hew to the old-school definition of GISH: a physical (usually melee) attacker that uses spells to self-buff.

Crossbow Expert removes the disadvantage from being in melee for all ranged attacks. Crawford has confirmed that this includes ranged spell attacks.

For the class features one needs to devote to bladelock to keep up with blastlock, I went with those DivisibleByZero spent on his damage analysis, but yes, the totals are over the life of the character, but they are over and above the invocations and ASIs spent on also trying to keep up with the blastlock's EB damage.

I use a similar definition of Gish, although in my mind a melee focus is required as opposed to just being typical. It is certainly possible to make a bladelock into an effective Gish using feats and multiclassing, but I agree that the default Bladelock without feats and multiclassing doesn't meet our traditional definition.

Gastronomie

2016-08-10, 07:20 PM

I think part of the problem is that straight up, Eldritch Blast /w Agonizing Blast just overshadows the entire Warlock arsenal, especially in conjunction with Hex.

I have seen builds without it in play, but only when the player didn't care about optimizing for damage at all. It's too big and obvious a boost for any player that does care in the slightest.Well, as I have already mentioned multiple times, "DPR isn't everything."

I mean, if everyone cared about DPR and only DPR, every single character in the world would be a Fighter or a Blastlock. But there are actually Bards, Clerics, Wizards, and other characters that inflict less damage but are still good choices. This is because these builds do different things. They aren't comparable with each other, at least not directly.

Also, GWM Bladelocks with advantage via Darkness have a pretty damn good DPR too. There's no denying that.

And I think that Hex is overrated. At low levels it's amazing beyond belief, sure, but at high levels it's most of the time not that much of an appealing choice. When you can instead use that level 5 slot for "Command on 5 people", "Banishment on 2 people", "Hold Person on 4 people", or "25 THP and 25 dmg no save to everybody who attacks you in melee", Hex honestly isn't worth the spell slot.

bid

2016-08-10, 07:29 PM

Which is, IMO and as I've said, the entire purpose of the Pact of the Blade Boon. To provide an advantage over EB when stuck in melee.
Crossbow expert.

Failed my init roll, I see.:smallbiggrin:

DivisibleByZero

2016-08-10, 08:56 PM

The problem is, the Blade Pact Warlock falls into the same bin as the Beastmaster ranger.

Yes, it certainly does. As in, it is 100% perfectly fine in play, but the theory crafters and the armchair optimizers can't see that, and they never will because they have already decided, without ever seeing it in play, that it is subpar, when in fact it is fine, and pretty much everyone that has actually played one agrees.

So yes, it most certainly is indeed in the same bin as the Beastmaster.
Yep. Agreed.

Zman

2016-08-10, 09:09 PM

Yes, it certainly does. As in, it is 100% perfectly fine in play, but the theory crafters and the armchair optimizers can't see that, and they never will because they have already decided, without ever seeing it in play, that it is subpar, when in fact it is fine, and pretty much everyone that has actually played one agrees.

So yes, it most certainly is indeed in the same bin as the Beastmaster.
Yep. Agreed.

You realize that you cherry picked that quote, ignored what he actually said, ignored the context, put words in his mouth, and then proceeded to condescending and arrogant in a confrontational manner, right?

Here you go.

The problem is, the Blade Pact Warlock falls into the same bin as the Beastmaster ranger. That is, technically functional, but unappealing in play. He then followed that up discussing how they are competent and the biggest problem was in their feel. For instance, Beastmaster is solely a non option for me because for levels three and four, the first two levels of the subclass, the defining levels for your class feature, you stand around as a cheerleader for your beast.

Klorox

2016-08-10, 09:14 PM

I like the bladelock, and I appreciate how many have shown how it's possible to play one without the fighter dip at level 1.

But that level 1 is just so good.

But Heavy armor (vs. light) and CON save (the most important for a spellcaster) proficiency is just so damn good. It's worth the one level of spellcasting loss IMO.

It's also cool to take the invocation that grants 120' darkvision on a human or dragonborn (which are the best races for this character, IMO).

Gastronomie

2016-08-10, 09:14 PM

You realize that you cherry picked that quote, ignored what he actually said, ignored the context, put words in his mouth, and then proceeded to condescending and arrogant in a confrontational manner, right?It is said in a confrontational manner, but it's also humorous. ...And most humor involves being confrontational.

Anyhow, I 100% agree with what DivisibleByZero said. I'm fine with people discussing how the Bladelock (or any gish builds involving Bladelock) is bad, but have those people even used Bladelock for once? Because if they have they'll understand that it's actually a pretty damn good option.

Zman

2016-08-10, 09:31 PM

It is said in a confrontational manner, but it's also humorous. ...And most humor involves being confrontational.

Anyhow, I 100% agree with what DivisibleByZero said. I'm fine with people discussing how the Bladelock (or any gish builds involving Bladelock) is bad, but have those people even used Bladelock for once? Because if they have they'll understand that it's actually a pretty damn good option.

Humorous if you agree with him, insulting, condescending, confrontational and arrogant if you don't.

I have one at my table now, and he is straight Bladelock, did not choose Variant Human or a Fighter Dip and is finding it just not worth it at 6th level to engage in melee due to needing Hex and not being able to maintain concentration without Warcaster. Our Bladelock is just sitting back and slinging EBs and not risking losing concentration, essentially shoehorned to act like a Blastlock. That is the fault of the class.

Warlock is poorly designed in general with Agonozing Blast simply being too good since Hex is available. Without Varient Human, a Houserule granting a 1st level feat, or a Fighter Dip the Bladelock doesn't function well due to not having Con prof necessitating Warcaster. Without Medium Armor a pure Bladelock needs Dex further decreasing damage or makes them require three attributes and feats.

I'm not saying you can't build a competent Bladelock, especially through mid levels, but I am saying it is difficult to do given what Bladelock lacks without Varient Human or dipping Fighter. If you have to do either or both, it's poorly designed and balanced.

Gastronomie

2016-08-10, 09:48 PM

Well, eh, true, it might be a badly designed class in how it relies on a level 1 Fighter dip to become truly effective (the other classes don't need that). The perplexing problem is how making Bladelock stronger for that reason can very easily step on the feet of other classes...

Malifice

2016-08-10, 10:00 PM

Solid character. MCing and starting as Fighter really boosts the Bladelock as even a level of Fighter patches the weaknesses of a Bladelock, Con Prof and Heavy armor are great. Varient Human or a 1st level feat Houserule are absolutely critical for a Bladelock.

It actually pretty much plays as a Fighter for the early levels.

Dump Int and Dex (neither are needed). Pimp Str, Cha, Con, Wis in that order.

You dip Fighter at 1st then go straight to Warlock till 6th (Ftr 1/ Lock 5). Heavy armor, fighting style, second wind for survivability, Con saves, Perception and Athletics skill.

Levels 1-5 you're the guy in heavy armor with a greatsword clobbering stuff. Instead of action surge and manouvers after 1st, you have Hex and Greenflame blade at 2nd, and invocations and spells instead of manouvers from 3rd. Instead of a bow you use Eldritch blast. You also have (lock level+Cha) Tem HP online from 2nd which really ups your tanking at low level. With GWM and heavy weapons your killing (kobolds/ orcs/ goblins) most rounds and reliably milking in 4-8 temp HP per round.

In mook heavy fights you tank better than the Barbarian and nearly as good as the Moon Druid. Those Temp HP tend to go to waste on a blastlock. For you, your DM will attack you; when he does spam a Hellish rebuke while the attack only reduces your temp HP.

Instead of 3 manouvers per short rest, you have 2 spells. Mirror image, Hellish rebuke and Hex alone do more for you in combat that the manouvers do - they're better than parry, riposte and menacing attack respectively.

It only really becomes noticable at 5th when extra attack comes online for your single classes fighters and they pull away for that level. You make up some of the slack with Greenflame blade which increases to +1d8 at this level so it's not too bad. The following level (Your 6th total) Thirsting blade becomes available so you catch up. You also get Fireball at this level so it's worth that slight delay.

From there its back to Fighter to pick up action surge (4 attacks with action surge nova, or fireball + 2 attacks) and then your 3rd and final level to pick up manouvers.

After that its back to warlock all the way. I considered a sorcerer dip (adds shield, quicken metamagic) or Paladin (smite, bless) but elected against it.

I'm curious in which order did you take the feats, I'm assuming in order so HAM at 1st, GWM at 7th, Warcaster at 11th, and +2 Cha at 1th. Or maybe you dipped Fighter and got to Warlock 4 or even 6 for GWM earlier.

HAM was online first (the extra +1 to Strength lets you assign 14 points to Str, freeing up extra attrubute points) The DR 3 works brilliantly in tandem with Dark Ones Blessing temporary HP plus the mook heavy nature (skeletons/ zombies/ kobolds/ goblins/ orcs) of low level play.

You have Hex + Greenflame blade to pick up the slack, and hitting takes priority over missing at low level (3d6+3 damage is more than enough to kill most low level mooks, and you want to be replenishing your temp HP every round).

Even from 2nd level (Fighter 1/ Lock 1):

You have 4 temporary HP. Kobold/ Goblin/ Skeleton/ Cultist hits you for 5 damage. Reduce it by 3 for HAM. Reduce your temporary HP by 2. Hit the Kobold/ Gobin/ Skeleton/ Cultist. Deal 3d6+3 damage. Kobold/ Gobin/ Skeleton/ Cultist dies. Increase your temporary HP back to 4. Rinse. Repeat.

If your actual HP get knocked down a bit; use Second wind. Like most of your abilities it recovers on a short rest.

At Fighter 1/ Lock 2, you milk 5 Temp HP per kill, AND you enter every battle with 8 Temp HP from the invocation that gives you 1d4+4 temp HP at will. You'll be swapping this invocation out for Thirsting Blade later (at Lock 5), but at low levels (with HAM) its worth it weight in gold.

I went HAM at 1st (Vuman), GWM at 'lock 4, and finally Warcaster (sweet sweet Warcaster) at 'lock 8.

But man, Warcaster comes late, didn't you have Concentration problems early?

With HAM at low (and even medium) level the DC is rarely more than 10 when you get hit. Thanks to Fighter you have Con save proficiency (so +4-5) so it mitigates it a lot.

You'll find the DM will get tired of hitting you (it rarely does anything other than reduce your Temporary HP, which you get back the next round anyway). Dont be afraid to spam Hellish Rebuke at low level when you do get hit to give your DM even more reason to avoid attacking you. With a Cleric in the party and bless active you get an extra +1d4.

Mirror image comes online at 4th and It also comes in very handy as a defensive option.

I would like some clarification on your use of Armor of Agathas, Dark Ones Blessing, and Sword of Lifestealing all grant Temp HP and each time youl have to choose if you keep the remaining Temp HP or replace them in whole with the new source, they do not stack and the RAW is pretty clear on that. So Sword of Life Stealin on a Crit doesn't stack with Dark Ones Blessing, and neither can be used to maintain or replenish the Armor of Agathys so you should only be porcupine for two isn hits.

No they dont stack. You have to replace them (or keep the ones you have). They just increase my options for milking them. I know I can enter battle with 25 via Armor of Agathys; If these drop I can get more by killing stuff (Dark ones blessing) or via critting (Sword).

And I agree with Armor of Agathys. I rarely use it. It uses up a precious spell slot, and drops too soon. Its usefulness varies from meh to awesome (At warlock 5, mook heavy fights plus HAM means half a dozen mooks will kill themselves trying to hurt you - they deal 8 damage, you reduce it to 5, it comes off your Temp HP, and the monster takes 15 points of cold damage. After 3 attacks you're still unwounded and the monster has taken 45 points of damage. Then its your turn.)

It picks up again when you get resistance to (select one damage type). If you guess correctly what to be resistant to (slashing for humanoids is a good choice, swords and axes are pretty common) when you finish a short rest, HAM + Resistance to damage + Armor of Agathys (plus riposte) is a nasty combo.

Also, since you are a huge proponent of the two short rest with six to eight encounter adventuring day, you are burning quote a few spell slots early, I mean you have three per Rest and burn two of them, rest, using one of your two short rests, and then are using a pre combat AoA buff. Or is your DMing allowing a free buffing Short Rest before the day starts giving a substantial boost to a Short Rest based class like Warlock, which you should know inflates the power of it.

The PC (like most locks) spends his career with 2 spell slots (extended out a few extra levels thanks to the 3 levels of fighter). You have to wait till 14th level (Lock 11/ Fighter 3) before you get 3 tasty spell slots per short rest (and this opens up your options immensely).

With 2-3 short rests you have 6-8 slots per adventuring day. Hex gets cast early and stays up for the whole adventuring day (1 hour base, 8 hours from 3rd, 24 hours from 5th) until concentration drops.

For your first few fights over your first few levels you rely on Hex + (hold the second slot in reserve for either Hellish rebuke or to recast Hex if the first one goes down). From 5th level, Hex lasts 8 hours (all day) so if you have a slot left before resting (or its currently sustained) you short rest while maintaining it, and recover all spell slots. You then have Hex active and 2 free slots to hold in reserve for clutch moments (fireball, hellish rebuke or recasting Hex)

Some days you get clobbered a lot and find yourself recasting it most of the day. Thats the nature of the beast sadly.

I think this is a cool build, but think it comes online late, gets feats awefully late, and without VHuman or a 1st level bonus feat Houserule and Fighter to patch the build it really doesn't reach this potential.

Not at all. Youre indistinuishable for your party fighter over the first 10 levels (other than the fact you can cast spells like Fireball and can tank as good as the Barbarian).

Ive found it works really well. YMMV.

bid

2016-08-10, 10:46 PM

Humorous if you agree with him, insulting, condescending, confrontational and arrogant if you don't.
No argument here.

What is missing is counterpoints. Xetheral raise 4 issues which should be easy to resolve by anyone who has played bladelock. I guess if we don't get any clear answer it's because there's none to be given.

Criticism was offered in previous threads, but no improvements were made to answer them. That's not how you win others to your perspective.

bid

2016-08-10, 10:54 PM

And I agree with Armor of Agathys. I rarely use it. It uses up a precious spell slot, and drops too soon. Its usefulness varies from meh to awesome
And don't ever use it if there are any smart archer. They see the "spectral frost" and won't get any feedback damage from it.

Malifice

2016-08-10, 11:40 PM

You reach out with your mind, seeking the forbidden knowledge of ancient powers beyond the stars, powers beyond your comprehension, and are rewarded with a shining, obsidian blade, covered in glowing, red sigils in an indecipherable tongue. You can feel its weight in your hands, a gift of power and a sign of favor from your unknowable patron...

... but you proceed to never use it because the magic laser beam he already gave you is just as good, really, and you don't have to get up in anyone's ugly face to use it.

Which is, or course, not true.

The problem with Bladelocks isnt the fact they're suboptimal or weaker compared to Blastlocks; its just that they require more system mastery to make them work (both in design and in actual play).

Malifice

2016-08-10, 11:45 PM

And don't ever use it if there are any smart archer. They see the "spectral frost" and won't get any feedback damage from it.

Yeah, they annoy me. I always have slashing resistance too, and never piercing.

Dealing with archers is one of the few times I pull out Eldritch blast. Or Fireball. Or misty step 30' + move 30' + action surge [dash] 30' + attack [twice].

Honestly the problem I find is everything uses the bonus action. Cleave with GWM, laying on Hex to new targets, and Second wind.

Zman

2016-08-11, 07:25 AM

Which is, or course, not true.

The problem with Bladelocks isnt the fact they're suboptimal or weaker compared to Blastlocks; its just that they require more system mastery to make them work (both in design and in actual play).

Well, if we are looking as a pure class across all available races without Multiclassing, they are suboptimal and weaker and require much more system mastery to make them even viable. Using system mastery, a particular race or Houserule, dip in Fighter, and almost shoehorned mandatory options like Warcaster you can create a very narrow number of viable builds that function perfectly well. The problem is the internal balance of the class is lacking, Agonizing blast is too good, Pact of the Blade doesn't grant Medium Armor and makes the Bladelock extremely MAD. If you are single classed you need at the least Dex, Cha, and Con, or if you want better damage, you need Str, Cha, Dex and Con and can't really focus on any of them to 8th level because you needed Warcaster at 4th.

I've yet to see a non VHuman single classed Bladelock that functions well through most levels of the game without Houserules.

Gastronomie

2016-08-11, 07:46 AM

Well, if we are looking as a pure class across all available races without Multiclassing, they are suboptimal and weaker and require much more system mastery to make them even viable. Using system mastery, a particular race or Houserule, dip in Fighter, and almost shoehorned mandatory options like Warcaster you can create a very narrow number of viable builds that function perfectly well.True.

The problem is the internal balance of the class is lacking, Agonizing blast is too good, Pact of the Blade doesn't grant Medium Armor and makes the Bladelock extremely MAD. If you are single classed you need at the least Dex, Cha, and Con, or if you want better damage, you need Str, Cha, Dex and Con and can't really focus on any of them to 8th level because you needed Warcaster at 4th.
I've yet to see a non VHuman single classed Bladelock that functions well through most levels of the game without Houserules.True about armor. I actually think Pact of the Blade should also grant not only medium, but also heavy armor proficiency as well if you're to re-build it in a fashion that makes it "good without dipping into Fighter".

As for being MAD, yes, that's true as well, but if it wasn't MAD (if it required only two stats, like most characters), it would be terribly overpowered, and it's honestly a necessary evil.

Bladelocks don't need DEX. 10, or even 8 is fine, at least within my understanding. With Point buy, if you're going V human (and yes, true, without V Human they're sorta weak at low levels), you can start 15-8-14-8-10-15, which becomes 16-8-14-8-10-16.

(BTW, sorta off-topic, but in my opinion, CON 14 is fine for your entire career. Better to first pump up STR and CHA. Assuming you start Fighter, your CON saves start at +4, and for a DC 10 concentration save, the chances of failure are 25%. At level 5, if you get War Caster, it's now +5 with advantage, and your concentration save has a failure chance of 4% (assuming you don't get 20+ damage, that is, but at this level, that sort of damage is pretty rare). Darkness all day and night. >Win.
And if you bestow disadvantage on all attacks againts you, and if even that damage is negated or heavily reduced by the 8 THP you get from the False Life that you insert between every single encounter, honestly, a sorta-low HP doesn't matter at all.
If you really get damaged, you can disengage via Darkness, shrink back next to the Wizard, and become a Blaster as a secondary option.)

If I have one thing against Bladelocks, it's that if you use the Tiefling race within the Point-Buy system, unless your DM permits you to change that +1 INT to +1 STR, it's difficult for you to get high STR. This is an actually pretty perplexing problem, especially since thematically, Tieflings seem most suited for Bladelocks.

Zman

2016-08-11, 07:58 AM

True.
True about armor. I actually think Pact of the Blade should also grant not only medium, but also heavy armor proficiency as well if you're to re-build it in a fashion that makes it "good without dipping into Fighter".

As for being MAD, yes, that's true as well, but if it wasn't MAD (if it required only two stats, like most characters), it would be terribly overpowered, and it's honestly a necessary evil.

Bladelocks don't need DEX. 10, or even 8 is fine, at least within my understanding. With Point buy, if you're going V human (and yes, true, without V Human they're sorta weak at low levels), you can start 15-8-14-8-10-15, which becomes 16-8-14-8-10-16.

(BTW, sorta off-topic, but in my opinion, CON 14 is fine for your entire career. Better to first pump up STR and CHA. Assuming you start Fighter, your CON saves start at +4, and for a DC 10 concentration save, the chances of failure are 25%. At level 5, if you get War Caster, it's now +5 with advantage, and your concentration save has a failure chance of 4% (assuming you don't get 20+ damage, that is, but at this level, that sort of damage is pretty rare). Darkness all day and night. >Win.
And if you bestow disadvantage on all attacks againts you, and if even that damage is negated or heavily reduced by the 8 THP you get from the False Life that you insert between every single encounter, honestly, a sorta-low HP doesn't matter at all.
If you really get damaged, you can disengage via Darkness, shrink back next to the Wizard, and become a Blaster as a secondary option.)

If I have one thing against Bladelocks, it's that if you use the Tiefling race within the Point-Buy system, unless your DM permits you to change that +1 INT to +1 STR, it's difficult for you to get high STR. This is an actually pretty perplexing problem, especially since thematically, Tieflings seem most suited for Bladelocks.

Sure, you can dump Dex IF you Dip a Fighter for Heavy Armor. Without MCing Dex is very much needed making a Str based Bladelock almost unviable.

Sure, you can have a good Con save IF you dip Fighter. Without Dipping Fighter you fail Concentration 35-40% of the time, 12-16% of the time with Warcaster.

I was talking about being single classed. If a built in character option, i.e. Bladelock, requires starting 1st level as a different class entirely, that is a problem.

Gastronomie

2016-08-11, 08:27 AM

Sure, you can dump Dex IF you Dip a Fighter for Heavy Armor. Without MCing Dex is very much needed making a Str based Bladelock almost unviable.

Sure, you can have a good Con save IF you dip Fighter. Without Dipping Fighter you fail Concentration 35-40% of the time, 12-16% of the time with Warcaster.

I was talking about being single classed. If a built in character option, i.e. Bladelock, requires starting 1st level as a different class entirely, that is a problem.What you're saying is 100% true. I've already acknowledged it in my previous posts. Without multiclassing, Bladelocks are terrible. If multiclassing wasn't allowed, even I'd never use it.

I was talking based on the assumption you're dipping Fighter because, otherwise, the build itself can't even exist in the first place. Thus, as aforementioned, in my head, the word "Bladelock" means "someone who started first level Fighter then went off to take Warlock X".

...Anyhow, as I've already agreed, it is a problem that without dipping Fighter, Pact of the Blade is absolutely terrible.

Spiritchaser

2016-08-11, 09:55 AM

I am not going to require a new player to start as a fighter in order to be a bladelock.

I would hesitate to do this to an experienced player

The blastlock will, as it happens, be an experienced player (though almost exclusively used to archers) If he wants to refluff his eldritch bolts as arrows, and be a high utility arcane archer, I have no problem with that.

The two are family, and competative, and I don't want the new player at a dissadvantage because of his concept.

I'm going to let the bladelock use cha to attack, and I'm going to add... Some kind of armor option.

Tanarii

2016-08-11, 10:40 AM

I'm going to let the bladelock use cha to attack, and I'm going to add... Some kind of armor option.This overpowers the class in combat if she also retains the ability to make strong magical ranged attacks on an at-will, or even 2/SR, basis.

If it's a trade-off, it's fairer.

That trade-off usually comes in the form of spending your Invocations on at-will Mage-Armor, and being MAD (requiring Dex or Str instead of, or as well as, Cha). Or having to Multi-class, or spend feats. You're removing that, so you need to balance it out somehow.

Edit: The idea that a Bladelock should somehow be the equal of a Blastlock doesn't make any sense unless the Bladelock sacrifices the ability to be a Blastlock. And I don't just mean EB + Agonizing Blast. 2/SR Spell slots are also part of the equation. (Or at least sacrifices *something* to be good in melee. It shouldn't be free.)

CursedRhubarb

2016-08-11, 10:48 AM

I've never understood why so many people thing the Temp HP bladelocks can get is so great and amazing. I keep hearing it prevents your health from ever going down or not down much. I don't get this because even at low level fights I've seen, 4thp is insignificant to the damage you take. Like the recent fights we had with Violet Fungus. I had 29hp and we got a +5thp from our cleric. First turn everyone had 2-3 fungus to deal with and each got 3 attacks. Each turn people were taking about 3-24 hp damage. A tiny +4 or +5 only if you land the killing blow has yet to seem to stand up to helping much at all when taking half or more of your HP if you get hit.

Gastronomie

2016-08-11, 10:58 AM

georgie_leech

2016-08-11, 11:05 AM

It depends on the nature of the encounter, but when you're imposing disadvantage on all your opponents' attacks, have 16+ AC, and get 8 temporal HP in-between every single battle, things are pretty easy.

Of course, this is with an optimized Fighter-dip build, but still.

Hang on, is that based on average damage per attack, or average damage per hit? THP don't care if the average damage of an attacker per round is only 5, if that's done with an attack that does 25 every 5 rounds or so. If nothing else, just rolling high on a Greataxe can eat through the 8 from False Life on its own.

CursedRhubarb

2016-08-11, 11:18 AM

It depends on the nature of the encounter, but when you're imposing disadvantage on all your opponents' attacks, have 16+ AC, and get 8 temporal HP in-between every single battle, things are pretty easy.

Of course, this is with an optimized Fighter-dip build, but still.

I've not done the fighter dip, mainly due to going more of a stealth/ranged build but have 17ac and it just doesn't seem to matter much. If I get targeted, I get hit 9/10 times. I manage to let the barbarian or cleric soak most of the attacks but when I get targeted the DM has bloody good rolls (bugger had disadvantage and rolls a 20/20). Think 13 damage is the lowest hit I've taken so far and with the 29hp I had then, it hurt XD.

BigONotation

2016-08-11, 11:47 AM

I've both played a Bladelock to 7th and DMed for one that made it to 6th both with the standard 1st level fighter dip. My only findings are this:

Pact of the Blade Warlocks should gain Hex (cast at their warlock level) as a archetype feature that is CHA mod times per day.

Gastronomie

2016-08-11, 12:40 PM

Hang on, is that based on average damage per attack, or average damage per hit? THP don't care if the average damage of an attacker per round is only 5, if that's done with an attack that does 25 every 5 rounds or so. If nothing else, just rolling high on a Greataxe can eat through the 8 from False Life on its own.I'm not really saying that the THP boost is enough to negate all damage so that the Bladelock never loses a single point of his normal Hit Points. I'm just saying it helps a lot as a cushion that protects your main HP. That Greataxe attack you mentioned - if you took it directly to your main HP, that's quite a lot of damage for low~mid level characters, isn't it?

Fiendish Vigor makes Bladelocks/gishs pretty damn tough.

For instance, a level 5 Fighter with 16 CON has 49 HP.
A Level 5 Bladelock (Fighter 1/Warlock 4) with 14 CON has 40 HP.

Just one casting of False Life is enough to make the Bladelock's total HP about the same as that of a same-level Fighter with higher CON stats. If you repeat False Life in-between every single encounter, it's obvious that the Bladelock is more tankier. (To be fair, Fighters have Second Wind, but still.)

At high levels, False Life gets a bit less important, and the gap in normal HP may grow. But even at pretty high levels, getting to ignore the first 8 damage you take every encounter is not an ability that can be ignored.

Add since you're a warlock, assuming the DM isn't a really mean person, you're gonna get some short rests. Which means you can heal your main HP using your Hit Dice quite often. So no need to worry about fainting.

Spiritchaser

2016-08-11, 02:01 PM

Edit: The idea that a Bladelock should somehow be the equal of a Blastlock doesn't make any sense unless the Bladelock sacrifices the ability to be a Blastlock. And I don't just mean EB + Agonizing Blast. 2/SR Spell slots are also part of the equation. (Or at least sacrifices *something* to be good in melee. It shouldn't be free.)

The blastlock can take crossbow expert and for the cost of one feat function just as well in melee as the bladelock, this compares favourably to the investments a bladelock must make.

As for imballanced in the general case? I don't think this touches what a greatsword swinging paladorc can do with quickened hold or quickened green flame blade and either haste or elemental weapon.

Fortunately no one wants to play one of those so I don't have to balance against that.

Tanarii

2016-08-11, 03:16 PM

The blastlock can take crossbow expert and for the cost of one feat function just as well in melee as the bladelock, this compares favourably to the investments a bladelock must make.To compare for damage output. But you're talking about giving a bladelock similar damage output based on the same stat in melee for free, PLUS maintaining their ranged damage output, plus a boost in AC.

As for imballanced in the general case? I don't think this touches what a greatsword swinging paladorc can do with quickened hold or quickened green flame blade and either haste or elemental weapon.No, imbalanced vs a Blasterlock. You're talking about turning a Bladelock into a Blasterlock plus. It's a straight unbalanced power-up.

Spiritchaser

2016-08-11, 03:56 PM

To compare for damage output. But you're talking about giving a bladelock similar damage output based on the same stat in melee for free, PLUS maintaining their ranged damage output, plus a boost in AC.

No, imbalanced vs a Blasterlock. You're talking about turning a Bladelock into a Blasterlock plus. It's a straight unbalanced power-up.

I do appreciate your time in replying, but I can't find a convincing rebuttal to:

I have one player who need only invest in CHA for attack and with one feat that can be at range or melee. They can have strong Dex based AC if they choose.

I have another player with multiple invocations and a feat required to be comparable or slightly less strong in melee than the blast lock will be at both range and melee. They will need to max two stats to do this and will need another 1-2 feats or a fighter dip to obtain the armor that the blastlock would obtain from dex, but unlike the blastlock, the bladelock is far more likely to need that armor. The bladelock must invest in yet another invocation to match what the bastlock can do at range. Finally, and significantly, the blastlock gets the utility of tomb or chain which the bladelock cannot

Because these characters will play side by side and level for level and because these two Will probably compete in several ways, I need to make sure things are as balanced as they can be.

James warden

2016-08-11, 04:33 PM

Great knowledge i have got from here

CursedRhubarb

2016-08-11, 04:36 PM

So long as they aren't power-gamers the bladelock can be perfectly fine with straight bladelock. I would give them a heads up that if only doing max damage is their goal then they may want to change the character.

If they start with a Dex build they will have good armor and at lvl 3 when they become a bladelock their melee will go up with getting a martial finesse weapon.

Focusing more on non attack roll spells will be a better choice for them and there are some great utility spells that are non roll, non save like Mirror Image, Darkness, and Misty Step that will boost survivability and utility.

There are a lot of Strength boosting items available and just a pair of Gauntlets of Ogre's Strength, while sup par for a fighter or barbarian, are amazing for a bladelock as it makes them more versitile in melee as they can then be effective with ANY weapon so if you come across guys that are vulnerable to, say, bludgeoning damage but everyone has slashing or piercing they can simply change their weapon and go to town.

There is also more than just hitting things that can be done in combat and a Dexlock can really bog down or hinder opponents without needing to use a spell slot like the Bladelock.

On a side note, if they get mounts and have an encounter on the road a Bladelock can make their pact weapon a lance (no need to worry how to carry the 12'-15' heavy awkward thing) and have some real fun.

Tanarii

2016-08-11, 04:47 PM

Because these characters will play side by side and level for level and because these two Will probably compete in several ways, I need to make sure things are as balanced as they can be.Buff up Pact of the Blade Boon, but tell the player he can't take Eldritch Blast cantrip.

Grayfigure

2016-08-11, 07:05 PM

Extremely late to this party and don't know if the suggestion's been brought up in thread, but for those worried that dual wielding bladelock (the only 'lock im focusing on with this 'fix') cant use lifedrinker on a second weapon, here's a fix me and my DM worked out together.

Instead of having to make fancy changes to the class and balancing issues, how about you come at it from the other side?

I have a GOO Pact Bladelock that needed to dual wield as part of my 'concept' for him. We ran into the same issue where you could only have one PoB. What we did was, instead of trying to reinvent the wheel (Bladelocking), we just added a sexy seat to the bike (this analogy is breaking down!).

I remembered my time playing 4e and coming across a magic item called a Paired Weapon. I figured that would be a cool addition to have for the bladelock, but realized there hadn't been a Paired Weapon made for 5e.

I showed my DM the wiki for it (he asked me to come up with evidence this existed lol), and we then hashed out how it would work for our campaign:

1) the weapon could only be a weapon useable with 1 hand (either 1 handed or versatile)
2) The weapon would take ONE ACTION to separate into two weapons, and the same to reattach into 1 weapon.
3) If you invested in the Dual Wielder feat, it would grant you the dexterity needed to separate your weapon as a BONUS ACTION, and
reattach for the same.

The effect for my Bladelock was that there was now a magic item in game that could be grafted around the magical weapon effects in the game (making the DM's job of providing suitable magic items up for grabs easier, as he wanted to get us all signature weapons in the future), that could then be separated into two weapons (for a price) and reconnected together again. This paired weapon in its single weapon format would then be PoB'd for the Bladelock to use as his Pact Weapon. This would allow the 'lock to get a two weapon Pact Blade, both capable of using the Lifedrinker invocation.

I know its not perfectly ideal, but it felt a great way to give the bladelock relevant weapon upgrades as the game went on, allowing him to stay kinda close to fighter output while still keeping him firmly behind it, and also readded a (IMO) cool magic item back into the game.

Spiritchaser

2016-08-11, 09:04 PM

Buff up Pact of the Blade Boon, but tell the player he can't take Eldritch Blast cantrip.

That's an interesting thought.

I'd allow the cantrip, but very possibly not the +cha to damage from agonizing blast. Still decent ranged damage but not strictly competitive

It's a bit manipulative but... Not unreasonably so.

I'll have to think about that

Tanarii

2016-08-11, 09:16 PM

That's an interesting thought.

I'd allow the cantrip, but very possibly not the +cha to damage from agonizing blast. Still decent ranged damage but not strictly competitive

It's a bit manipulative but... Not unreasonably so.

I'll have to think about that
I still think you should remove the cantrip as an option entirely. It has 3 invocations that can buff it up, plus synergies too well with Hex. If he wants to have a ranged attack Cantrip he can take Chill Touch instead, which still scales up with level. That'll seriously differentiate the two.

Obviously if you do that you want to make sure the Pact really is competitive in return. Granting HA proficiency and Cha-based attacks with what's normally a Str weapon would be a pretty good though. He could dump Dex and Str. Or make it medium armor if you want him to spec out at least a 14 Dex. (Or 16 with Mastery feat.)

Zman

2016-08-11, 09:23 PM

That's an interesting thought.

I'd allow the cantrip, but very possibly not the +cha to damage from agonizing blast. Still decent ranged damage but not strictly competitive

It's a bit manipulative but... Not unreasonably so.

I'll have to think about that

Alternatively, just change Agonizing Blast to only be applicable once per target and not stack Cha mods in damage, and you can let them add it a second time at 11th level. Also, make the same restriction on Repelling Blast. With one or two Cha mods of damage and the granularity of multiple attacks rolls it isn't as much of a nerf as it initially sounds like.

Then, even a reasonably made Bladelock should have better damage, but the Blastlock will have some control with 10' repel and less overall damage. At low levels the balance is unchanged, through 10th it only reduces Cha Mod in damage ~40% of the time, and EB is still decent at will damage late game but far from its stock dominance.

It may be a bit much if you don't let them add Cha twice, I don't but I added two fats that can be used to increase EB damage to make up the difference or the Blastlock needs a feat too boost damage near stock levels just as all martials need a feat for competitive damage.

Millstone85

2016-08-12, 05:36 AM

Gastronomie

2016-08-12, 06:15 AM

How about adding something like this to Pact of the Blade?

When you cast eldritch blast, you can replace up to two of the beams with a melee attack made with your pact weapon. You can move before and after each melee attack.
If you have the Agonizing Blast invocation, add your Charisma modifier to the damage your pact weapon deals on a hit.
If you have the Repelling Blast invocation, you can push a creature up to 10 feet away from you in a straight line when you hit it with your pact weapon.

And remove Thirsting Blade and Lifedrinker.This makes Bladelocks better.

…It also makes them broken beyond repair. They already are full casters.

I think we've come to a pretty solid conclusion on "what Bladelocks are like right now". Pure Bladelocks are bad, or at least, a terribly unoptimized option. Those with a Fighter dip are solid and work pretty good if built right.

As for trying to balance Bladelocks… let me first think why the Fighter dip is so good.
-Higher AC
-Better concentration saves
I think these are the reasons. Both are crucial for the gish build.

So perhaps, how about making these invocations:

And Now You Have Good AC
Prerequisite: Bladelock
You gain Proficiency in all armor and shields.

So I Heard the War Caster Feat is Taxing
Prerequisite: Bladelock, level 5 or higher
You gain advantage on concentration saves.

Tanarii

2016-08-12, 08:36 AM

I think we've come to a pretty solid conclusion on "what Bladelocks are like right now". Pure Bladelocks are bad, or at least, a terribly unoptimized option. Those with a Fighter dip are solid and work pretty good if built right. The problem is "pure" bladelocks are blasterlocks plus melee capability. All it takes to be a blasterlock is 1 invocation. Everything else is gravy, except *maybe* repelling blast. So call it two invocations.

So to add a bladelock on top of that, you start spending other resources (invocations mainly, but also ASI on Str / Dex). In theory, you get something you wouldn't otherwise have: Melee damage capability. If you focus, also some staying power (at-will Mage Armor, False Life/Dark One's Blessing/Armor of Agathys).

The main problem is twofold:
1) You aren't actually trading ranged capability for melee, you're adding melee capabilities on top for magical capabilities. That adding has to come at a cost *somewhere*. You can't expect to be as good as a straight melee class and still retain great magical & ranged capabilities. And the somewhere it comes from isn't from Eldritch Blast.
2) You spend several resources, and don't actually gain anything better than a Blastlock does with a single Feat (Edit: talking about Crossbow Expert) spent. (Or to a lesser degree, with Shillelagh.)

There are several ways to fix that.
IMO number 1 is nerf the damn Crossbow Expert feat, but I'm pretty anti-feats to being with, at least ones that remove tactical play. And possibly nerf Eldritch Blast and/or Agonizing Blast. Or at least make them take a greater resource investment.
A second is to significantly buff bladelocks melee capabilities so they are at least on par with blastery, but make the trade-off that they are significantly less blastery.
I'm sure there's some others.