Appropriate Skill Restrictions for Bard of Lore

[rudy]

I'm planning on limiting the three skill proficiencies from the College of Lore to a predetermined list. My logic being, first that Bard of Lore College is one of the most powerful options anyway. Second, that it's thematic that they are forced to have some skill centered around, you know, lore.

The current list I'm thinking of is:

Arcana, History, Insight, Investigation, Medicine, Nature, Religion

I'm looking for opinions as to whether this list seems good, or if it is too restrictive. Right now it's ideal for me because it forces at least one skill that is centered around knowledge (Arcana/History/Medicine/Nature/Religion) while the other two are at least reflective, lore-ish types of skills.

[Cybren]

I'm planning on limiting the three skill proficiencies from the College of Lore to a predetermined list. My logic being, first that Bard of Lore College is one of the most powerful options anyway. Second, that it's thematic that they are forced to have some skill centered around, you know, lore.

The current list I'm thinking of is:

Arcana, History, Insight, Investigation, Medicine, Nature, Religion

I'm looking for opinions as to whether this list seems good, or if it is too restrictive. Right now it's ideal for me because it forces at least one skill that is centered around knowledge (Arcana/History/Medicine/Nature/Religion) while the other two are at least reflective, lore-ish types of skills.

I imagine a bard will want at least two of those anyway, and between race/background and the base bard skill choices, it won't really represent a decrease in power. Go for it

[uraniumrooster]

I think that list should be fine, but given that it is still a Bard subclass, I might add Performance for the Bard who studies art, and Persuasion and/or Deception for the bard who studies rhetoric and diplomacy. Most bards will probably already have proficiency in at least one or two of those, but they still seem like flavorful bardly options, even for the more scholarly types.

[Elminster298]

I don't think restricting the skill list is an issue. Thematically it makes sense and mechanically it really won't make much of a difference. With up to ten skill proficiencies, only three of which are restricted, any lore bard will get all the skills they want. I would add something along the lines of "If you already have three from this list you may choose any other instead" and I would probably add animal handling, survival, and MAYBE performance since those three can either be learned or greatly improved by written lore. Performance is a non-issue since most bards will have it from first level before the lore skills become available.

[rudy]

All good points, thank you. I don't want to expand the skill too much, or the bard is able to completely bypass the "lore" aspect. For example, if it includes Deception, Perception and Performance, then they can just take those three.

It may end up being simpler to just say "At least one of the skills must be Arcana, History, Religion or Nature."

[Specter]

Just remove STR and DEX skills, the rest makes sense.

[Reosoul]

What about the bards that study swoll acceptance?

[Coffee_Dragon]

Personally I wouldn't say intent-as-inferred-from-label must trump intent-as-expressed-in-content, or in other words, if someone makes a physically oriented lore bard, and that doesn't conflict with some relevant piece of world building, then the abstract label "lore" will just have to sit there and be somewhat inaccurate. Or in other other words, this restriction doesn't seem super necessary to me. (If you don't enforce the lore flavour, how often do you see it being frivolously violated?)

[Cybren]

Personally I wouldn't say intent-as-inferred-from-label must trump intent-as-expressed-in-content, or in other words, if someone makes a physically oriented lore bard, and that doesn't conflict with some relevant piece of world building, then the abstract label "lore" will just have to sit there and be somewhat inaccurate. Or in other other words, this restriction doesn't seem super necessary to me. (If you don't enforce the lore flavour, how often do you see it being frivolously violated?)

The change doesn't impact a bards ability to take physical skills. Bards already get tons of skills.

[Coffee_Dragon]

The change doesn't impact a bards ability to take physical skills. Bards already get tons of skills.

But you do think there is a number of physical skills that is one too many for a bard?

[Vogonjeltz]

But you do think there is a number of physical skills that is one too many for a bard?

Not really, no. Lore Bards are more about spellcasting, and they don't have the ASI to pump charisma and con and dex or str

[rudy]

I think I've decided on:

"When you join the College of Lore at 3rd level, you gain proficiency with three skills from among Wisdom, Intelligence and Charisma skills. At least one must be Arcana, History, Nature or Religion."

The first restriction is unlikely to be a meaningful one for most builds; it simply means they have to pick any dex skills they want at first level, and so it's more there for flavor. The second restriction ensures there is at least a "taste" of lore to the Lore Bard, which is my primary goal.

[Xetheral]

I think I've decided on:

"When you join the College of Lore at 3rd level, you gain proficiency with three skills from among Wisdom, Intelligence and Charisma skills. At least one must be Arcana, History, Nature or Religion."

The first restriction is unlikely to be a meaningful one for most builds; it simply means they have to pick any dex skills they want at first level, and so it's more there for flavor. The second restriction ensures there is at least a "taste" of lore to the Lore Bard, which is my primary goal.

Consider what you want to do if the Bard already has all 4 "knowledge" skills. Do they a third free pick or do they lose it?

[rudy]

Consider what you want to do if the Bard already has all 4 "knowledge" skills. Do they a third free pick or do they lose it?
In the extremely unlikely build that a player has all four knowledge skills from level 1, I would make it a free pick. Easy enough to add that caveat in. Thanks.

[MrFahrenheit]

I'd advise against this. That being said, if you are dead set on it, I'd just restrict out the str and dex skills.

The wisdom ones make sense as much as the int ones do, even if they're practical knowledge/applying what's learned and not book smarts/classically defined "lore." Even investigation makes sense, to show the bard knows how to find what s/he wants to study.

The charisma ones make sense because, hey, it's a bard.

[Cybren]

But you do think there is a number of physical skills that is one too many for a bard?

No, but I also don't think a flavorful rule that literally doesn't impact class powerlevel is fine

[BiPolar]

I'm planning on limiting the three skill proficiencies from the College of Lore to a predetermined list. My logic being, first that Bard of Lore College is one of the most powerful options anyway. Second, that it's thematic that they are forced to have some skill centered around, you know, lore.

The current list I'm thinking of is:

Arcana, History, Insight, Investigation, Medicine, Nature, Religion

I'm looking for opinions as to whether this list seems good, or if it is too restrictive. Right now it's ideal for me because it forces at least one skill that is centered around knowledge (Arcana/History/Medicine/Nature/Religion) while the other two are at least reflective, lore-ish types of skills.

The bard with Jack of All Trades is created as a PC that is very good at many skills, but can do all of them well. Limiting it is an interesting idea, but I don't think it really falls into play with the design. This is a sub-class that has chosen to study and practice. They aren't fighters, they are limited casters that can are very skillful. They spend their reading and practicing how to do things and do them very well.

The limited spell choices make the Lore Bard choose carefully and often times can be left without something truly useful or powerful in a combat situation. On the other hand, they shine when asked to perform tasks.

If you think it'll affect your game, then go for the limit, but I hope you still let them get their double proficiencies and apply jack of all trades to the skills you aren't letting them become proficient in.

[rudy]

If you think it'll affect your game, then go for the limit, but I hope you still let them get their double proficiencies and apply jack of all trades to the skills you aren't letting them become proficient in.

I ultimately decided to go with a weak limitation. They still get 3 skills, but they must be Wis/Cha/Int skills, and at least one of them must be Arcana/History/Nature/Religion. In practice, the first restriction will not matter in most cases, as they'll be able to get any of the Dex skills they want from the bard class itself and/or race and/or background.

[Cybren]

The bard with Jack of All Trades is created as a PC that is very good at many skills, but can do all of them well. Limiting it is an interesting idea, but I don't think it really falls into play with the design. This is a sub-class that has chosen to study and practice. They aren't fighters, they are limited casters that can are very skillful. They spend their reading and practicing how to do things and do them very well.

The limited spell choices make the Lore Bard choose carefully and often times can be left without something truly useful or powerful in a combat situation. On the other hand, they shine when asked to perform tasks.


I don't think this is accurate. Bards are full casters, with a narrow but still powerful spell list, including things like heat metal, stinking cloud, shatter, thunderwave, animate objects, hold person, and many more! Order now!, and bards get magical secrets to lift spells from other classes. Spells like Fireball, or Destructive Wrath. Lore Bards get extra magical secrets, too, so they can lift fireball at level 6. Bards that want to be good at combat can be very good at combat, while still being excellent in other areas too, with a large number of skills, expertise, and support abilities in things like Bardic Inspiration and Song of Rest.

Restricting the lore bards skill choices to things they would probably want anyway isn't a limiter on their power or weakening anything.

[Coffee_Dragon]

I think the "it's not weakening them anyway" or "it won't matter in most cases" arguments cut both ways. If a restriction is harmless in the sense that it doesn't affect the majority of plausible builds, then it's also pointless to the same degree. Restrictions should be considered in light of the cases where they do matter. In this case, if someone actually does want a bard heavy on physical skills and ends up wanting to take some of them at third level, would it be good to be able to put a stop to that and point to a house rule tightening up the loreness of lore bards? If so, go for it. If that's unlikely to happen, and/or unlikely to be a problem when it does, the rule may be unnecessary clutter in the house rules file.

[BiPolar]

I don't think this is accurate. Bards are full casters, with a narrow but still powerful spell list, including things like heat metal, stinking cloud, shatter, thunderwave, animate objects, hold person, and many more! Order now!, and bards get magical secrets to lift spells from other classes. Spells like Fireball, or Destructive Wrath. Lore Bards get extra magical secrets, too, so they can lift fireball at level 6. Bards that want to be good at combat can be very good at combat, while still being excellent in other areas too, with a large number of skills, expertise, and support abilities in things like Bardic Inspiration and Song of Rest.

Restricting the lore bards skill choices to things they would probably want anyway isn't a limiter on their power or weakening anything.

Yeah, I was second guessing myself as soon as I wrote it :) Basically, I was thinking about Sorcerers, Warlocks, Wizards and even Clerics. Bards have a limited list (like sorcerers), but without the additional control options of metamagic, sorcery points or even the sub class stuff of draconics or wild surges. They don't have the regeneration of spell slots like warlocks or wizards and can't reshuffle their on call spell list like wizards or clerics.

However, part of the core fundamentals of bards do seem to be their skills. Between the additional expertise options throughout their career and the jack of all trades, it seems that the fluff is there that supports bards being very good at ability checks.

[rudy]

In this case, if someone actually does want a bard heavy on physical skills and ends up wanting to take some of them at third level, would it be good to be able to put a stop to that and point to a house rule tightening up the loreness of lore bards?

For me, yes. I'm trying to make a stronger flavor distinction between the College of Lore (Mentality) and the College of Valor (Physicality). I'm simultaneously considering giving College of Valor a single skill from the Fighter skill list, because people seem to think they are just slightly weaker than the College of Lore, but I haven't decided.

[Cybren]

Yeah, I was second guessing myself as soon as I wrote it :) Basically, I was thinking about Sorcerers, Warlocks, Wizards and even Clerics. Bards have a limited list (like sorcerers), but without the additional control options of metamagic, sorcery points or even the sub class stuff of draconics or wild surges. They don't have the regeneration of spell slots like warlocks or wizards and can't reshuffle their on call spell list like wizards or clerics.

However, part of the core fundamentals of bards do seem to be their skills. Between the additional expertise options throughout their career and the jack of all trades, it seems that the fluff is there that supports bards being very good at ability checks.

I think the bards version of the 'full casters getting some way to interact with magic beyond just having spells and slots' that 5E tends to use is Magical Secrets.

[MrFahrenheit]

Bards are incredibly versatile. Also, considering how many skills really aren't tacked on to the physical attributes, how many skills they get anyhow, and that bards prioritize dex over str, you could easily find yourself with, say...

Half elf college of lore bard 3:
8/14/13/12/14/16
Skill proficiencies at level 3:
Acrobatics (racial), sleight of hand (racial), stealth (background)
Investigation (background), arcana (lore),
Insight (class), perception (lore)
Deception (class), performance (lore), persuasion (class).

At that point, does it even really matter when the player picked up the given skill? Yeah, other races have fewer skills, so you could subtract one or two (say, sleight of hand and performance for the sake of example), but that still wouldn't impact much else otherwise, just due to the sheer volume of skills the bard still gets.

[rudy]

Bards are incredibly versatile. Also, considering how many skills really aren't tacked on to the physical attributes, how many skills they get anyhow, and that bards prioritize dex over str, you could easily find yourself with, say...

Half elf college of lore bard 3:
8/14/13/12/14/16
Skill proficiencies at level 3:
Acrobatics (racial), sleight of hand (racial), stealth (background)
Investigation (background), arcana (lore),
Insight (class), perception (lore)
Deception (class), performance (lore), persuasion (class).

At that point, does it even really matter when the player picked up the given skill? Yeah, other races have fewer skills, so you could subtract one or two (say, sleight of hand and performance for the sake of example), but that still wouldn't impact much else otherwise, just due to the sheer volume of skills the bard still gets.
Which is why the only "serious" restriction is that they must have at least one of Arcana, History, Nature, Religion. Your half elf example above would be unable to drop the Arcana choice for Animal Handling, Survival, Intimidation, etc.

[rudy]

Since the first restriction would barely matter in the end, simplified it to:

"When you join the College of Lore at 3rd level, you gain proficiency with three skills. At least one must be from Arcana, History, Nature, Religion. If you already have one of those skills, then you do not have to pick another."

[deathadder99]

Since the first restriction would barely matter in the end, simplified it to:

"When you join the College of Lore at 3rd level, you gain proficiency with three skills. At least one must be from Arcana, History, Nature, Religion. If you already have one of those skills, then you do not have to pick another."



I think that's completely fair and adds a little flavour without being overly restrictive.