Sick of Hearing that Gandalf was a Demigod

[Vorpalchicken]

Whenever someone brings up Gandalf as a prototypical model for the D&D wizard, two posts later someone will bring up the Silmalrillion and say "Well, Gandalf doesn't count as a wizard 'cuz of this super boring book."

I kinda just want to point out that when D&D was being created, The Silmalrillion had not yet been published (probably with good reason) so this version of Gandalf doesn't count. The wizard prototype is the Gandalf from The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. And that was just some dude in a hat.

So let my wizard be awesome and be mortal at the same time.

PS Yeah I know it was written years before, but if no one read it, it had no influence on fantasy culture.

OK now you can start your rage.

[krugaan]

Gandalf? Sorry, I'm not really into Pokémon.

Did someone get hurt trying to catch one? Like, walking into traffic or something?

[ZX6Rob]

I mean...

If we want to get right to brass tacks, Gandalf isn't the prototypical D&D wizard at all. Mazirian the Magician (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazirian_the_Magician) is. Gygax's idea of magic and spellcasting borrowed much more heavily from Jack Vance's The Dying Earth series than from Middle Earth, where magic is treated as a much less clinical concept and more as wondrous and occasionally miraculous powers with a hint of the divine. Gandalf looks like the prototypical wizard, with his large, floppy hat, disheveled robes, long, white beard, and crooked staff, but then again, so does the most popular depiction of Merlin.

[RickAllison]

The Silmarillion is hardly boring! It creates a massive and engaging mythology with great depth.

But you are right about Gandalf.

[gkathellar]

Demigod? Sounds like a D&D wizard to me.

[Vorpalchicken]

I mean...

If we want to get right to brass tacks, Gandalf isn't the prototypical D&D wizard at all. Mazirian the Magician (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazirian_the_Magician) is. Gygax's idea of magic and spellcasting borrowed much more heavily from Jack Vance's The Dying Earth series than from Middle Earth, where magic is treated as a much less clinical concept and more as wondrous and occasionally miraculous powers with a hint of the divine. Gandalf looks like the prototypical wizard, with his large, floppy hat, disheveled robes, long, white beard, and crooked staff, but then again, so does the most popular depiction of Merlin.

Yeah but we all know Gary just said that to get the Tolkien lawyers of his back.

[Specter]

As reddit pointed out, Gandalf was just a fighter who took Magic Initiate (and the Sage background). Whether he was a good fighter or not, it's up to debate, but far from a Demigod.

[Reosoul]

I might be wrong, but wasn't Gandalf actually a 20th level fighter with the Magic Initiate feat? I mean, he cast minor illusion and light occasionally, but most of the time he was just running around beating people into pulp dual-wielding a longsword and a quarterstaff. He honestly probably just wore the robes to trick minions into trying to chip away at his mountain of hit points while he smote them by the dozen.

Gandalf is far more a cunning Fighter than a Wizard in my opinion. He just knew how to play on peoples' expectations.

Edit: Dangit Specter.

[Razade]

I might be wrong, but wasn't Gandalf actually a 20th level fighter with the Magic Initiate feat? I mean, he cast minor illusion and light occasionally, but most of the time he was just running around beating people into pulp dual-wielding a longsword and a quarterstaff. He honestly probably just wore the robes to trick minions into trying to chip away at his mountain of hit points while he smote them by the dozen.

Gandalf is far more a cunning Fighter than a Wizard in my opinion. He just knew how to play on peoples' expectations.

Edit: Dangit Specter.

No because there are no class levels in Lord of the Rings, let alone class archtypes.

[RickAllison]

I might be wrong, but wasn't Gandalf actually a 20th level fighter with the Magic Initiate feat? I mean, he cast minor illusion and light occasionally, but most of the time he was just running around beating people into pulp dual-wielding a longsword and a quarterstaff. He honestly probably just wore the robes to trick minions into trying to chip away at his mountain of hit points while he smote them by the dozen.

Gandalf is far more a cunning Fighter than a Wizard in my opinion. He just knew how to play on peoples' expectations.

Edit: Dangit Specter.

Except that kind of falls apart once he actually does bother showing his power. If I was going to peg him as one archetype, I would say he is a Bladesinger, able to use extreme magic, but choosing not to because he didn't wish to abuse his gift like Saruman had, against the rule of Eru. But then we have passages like this one from A Journey in the Dark:


High in the air {Gandalf} tossed the blazing brand. It flared with a sudden white radiance like lightning; and his voiced rolled like thunder.
'Naur an edraith ammen! Naur dan in ngaurhoth!' he cried.
There was a roar and a crackle, an the tree above him burst into a leaf and bloom of blinding flame. The fire leapt from tree-top to tree-top. The whole hill was crowned with dazzling light. The swords and knives of the defenders shone and flickered. The last arrow of Legolas kindled in the air as it flew, and plunged burning into the heart of a great wolf-chieftain. All the others fled.

So he was very much a wizard, just one who chose not to pull out his major powers whenever they were convenient. Instead, he saved them for moments like the Balrog, when the creations of the Valar were in most desperate need.

Think of him as the a-hole wizard who is so focused on conserving his spell slots that he refuses to use them in any situation where his non-magical lackeys companions could solve them with difficulty.

[Elminster298]

No because there are no class levels in Lord of the Rings, let alone class archtypes.

With the soon to be released Middle Earth in D&D book there will be.

[Inchoroi]

Whenever someone brings up Gandalf as a prototypical model for the D&D wizard, two posts later someone will bring up the Silmalrillion and say "Well, Gandalf doesn't count as a wizard 'cuz of this super boring book."

I kinda just want to point out that when D&D was being created, The Silmalrillion had not yet been published (probably with good reason) so this version of Gandalf doesn't count. The wizard prototype is the Gandalf from The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. And that was just some dude in a hat.

So let my wizard be awesome and be mortal at the same time.

PS Yeah I know it was written years before, but if no one read it, it had no influence on fantasy culture.

OK now you can start your rage.

I disagree that The Silmarillion was boring. I loved it and it occupies a very special place on my enormous bookshelves.

However, Gandalf was a 4-6 level cleric, possibly a Knowledge Cleric, if we're talking 5e. I read a fairly in-depth exploration of it, which also equated Sauron with a level 9-ish character, also a Cleric, if memory serves correctly.

[RickAllison]

With the soon to be released Middle Earth in D&D book there will be.

Fair time to remind the other poster that classes are an abstraction, as well that many build characters from a concept and back into the D&D options rather than taking the archetypes and building from there.

Gandalf is a powerful wizard who tries not to abuse his power, instead choosing to fight with his sword. He never wears armor, but isn't usually hit in combat. Bladesinger is perfect. He gets to focus on melee combat while also having the full powers of being a wizard.

That isn't making Gandalf out of a wizard, that is making the character Gandalf into one.

[Specter]

"High in the air {Gandalf} tossed the blazing brand. It flared with a sudden white radiance like lightning; and his voiced rolled like thunder.
'Naur an edraith ammen! Naur dan in ngaurhoth!' he cried.
There was a roar and a crackle, an the tree above him burst into a leaf and bloom of blinding flame. The fire leapt from tree-top to tree-top. The whole hill was crowned with dazzling light. The swords and knives of the defenders shone and flickered. The last arrow of Legolas kindled in the air as it flew, and plunged burning into the heart of a great wolf-chieftain. All the others fled."

So, Fire Bolt? Hehe.

Jesus, relax. Of course you can't peg dudes into classes or archetypes; you can't even do that with D&D characters!

[Grod_The_Giant]

Gandalf isn't a wizard or a fighter. Gandalf is a DMPC

[Reosoul]

Fair time to remind the other poster that classes are an abstraction, as well that many build characters from a concept and back into the D&D options rather than taking the archetypes and building from there.

Gandalf is a powerful wizard who tries not to abuse his power, instead choosing to fight with his sword. He never wears armor, but isn't usually hit in combat. Bladesinger is perfect. He gets to focus on melee combat while also having the full powers of being a wizard.

That isn't making Gandalf out of a wizard, that is making the character Gandalf into one.

I didn't notice Gandalf doing a lot of singing when he was whacking Orcs.

Maybe I'm just not enough of a fan.

Or maybe people are taking this thread faaaar too seriously.

[RickAllison]

I didn't notice Gandalf doing a lot of singing when he was whacking Orcs.

Maybe I'm just not enough of a fan.

Or maybe people are taking this thread faaaar too seriously.

Not every bloody aspect of a class has to appear for a given character. Like I said, you can build from a character to the build rather than building up a character from the build. Gandalf doesn't sing because Gandalf's player decided to re-fluff that aspect because a singing warrior doesn't fit his concept. There, problem solved.

[DragonSorcererX]

Gandalf, Saruman and the other wizards are sort of Demigods, in their true forms they are Maia (creatures that would have a power level similar to D&D Lesser Deities, I think, and the Vala would be D&D Greater Deities), but, to not destroy the world fighting Sauron (that is also a Maia), Morgoth and other dark and edgy creatures they had their powers reduced to Aasimar power level. On the LoTR universe, you are born with magical power and you can't enter in the wizard class, you are a wizard and your magic come from your divine powers (there is no difference between Arcane, Divine, Primal and Pact Magic)...

If you want to emulate Gandalf on 5e you can go either Aasimar Sorcerer Favored Soul or Aasimar Wizard Light Domain Theurge.

[ClintACK]

I mean...

If we want to get right to brass tacks, Gandalf isn't the prototypical D&D wizard at all. Mazirian the Magician (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazirian_the_Magician) is.

This.

I mean seriously -- Gandalf's go-to thing in combat is a big magic sword. Most of the "magic" we see him do in all the books is probably attributable to other sources -- like Narya, the elven Ring of Power he wears -- the Ring of Fire. I'd be shocked if Gandalf had *any* fire magic at all without the Ring on. And I bet it gives him immunity to fire damage -- which would be really helpful when you're wrestling a Balor Balrog.

[Reosoul]

Not every bloody aspect of a class has to appear for a given character. Like I said, you can build from a character to the build rather than building up a character from the build. Gandalf doesn't sing because Gandalf's player decided to re-fluff that aspect because a singing warrior doesn't fit his concept. There, problem solved.

It sounds like you're actually helping my argument that he was actually just a goofy fighter who decided to take some extra charisma and bluff his way into Wizardry using a few cantrips.

But it seems really important to you, so you're probably right. :)

[DragonSorcererX]

...Balor Balrog...

Ha! On Forgotten Realms Gauntlgrym (Dwarven City) there is a creature of elemental fire named Maegera trapped down there... Tolkien Society, you have no power here!

[SharkForce]

yeah, gandalf may match the D&D wizard in image. but in terms of what he does... eh, not so much. he uses magic very rarely, and it certainly isn't nearly as capable of instantly solving problems like D&D magic. i mean, when you think of saruman, who was known as being more powerful and wise than the other wizards, what was he known for again? being really persuasive. he isn't known for calling down lightning or shooting fireballs, or for being able to fly, or teleport, or anything else like that. he was known for being extremely persuasive.

i'm sorry, but whether or not gandalf was a demigod, he sure as heck was not the model for D&D wizards.

[RickAllison]

It sounds like you're actually helping my argument that he was actually just a goofy fighter who decided to take some extra charisma and bluff his way into Wizardry using a few cantrips.

But it seems really important to you, so you're probably right. :)

Unfortunately, that hypothesis falls apart once he gets away from the main party and/or pulls a Deus ex Machina. For example:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Owq_aBJ9G6Q

That's pretty clearly not Light. More likely Sunbeam, a 6th-level spell. Or how about (I will include the accompanying video in a post after this one, only one video per post):


"Out he sprang, and even as I came behind, he burst into new flame. There was none to see, or perhaps in after ages songs would still be sung of the Battle of the Peak." Suddenly Gandalf laughed. "But what would they say in song? Those that looked up from afar thought that the mountain was crowned with storm. Thunder they heard, and lightning, they said, smote upon Celebdil, and leaped back broken into tongues of fire. Is not that enough? A great smoke rose about us, vapour and steam. Ice fell like rain. I threw down my enemy, and he fell down from the high place and broke the mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin."

This is from the chapter "The White Rider". Gandalf is clearly implying through his use of what the phenomena appeared to the peasants and how they thought of it that this was not the case. That storm was his doing (Call Lightning, perhaps?). He also infuses his sword with the power of the storm. We could use Thunderous Smite, but that could also work with Booming Blade.

So he needs Sunbeam, Call Lightning, some stormy blade trick, and melee capabilities. I'm tossing my vote in for Favored Soul (Tempest). Gives him Extra Attack, proficiency with Glamdring, and the spells to reflect his capabilities in the movies and books. Sorcerers also get Shatter (for the bridge) and I think he gets spells enough to reflect his ability to communicate with animals.

[RickAllison]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywZ5uo_3Y_A

[pwykersotz]

Gandalf? Sorry, I'm not really into Pokémon.

Did someone get hurt trying to catch one? Like, walking into traffic or something?

I see what you did there. :smallbiggrin:

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/not_really_into_pokemon.png

[MaxWilson]

I didn't notice Gandalf doing a lot of singing when he was whacking Orcs.

He's a Blademutterer.

[Malifice]

He's not a Demi-god.

There is only One God in ME. Eru. Its a monotheistic realm.

The Valar and Maia are Angels (and in some cases Demons or fallen Angels), not Gods.

[Sigreid]

I think Gandalf was based at least in part on Merlin. Merlin typically refrained from using magic to solve problems that the knights could solve themselves because the whole point was to get mortal men to believe in their own champions instead of depending on magic to save them. As a wizard, and magical creature, Merlin could never be the idol that the common man aspired to live up to. That's why Gandalf needed every one else. The people had to believe in the power and nobility of the people of middle earth and not the wizards.

[Malifice]

I think Gandalf was based at least in part on Merlin. Merlin typically refrained from using magic to solve problems that the knights could solve themselves because the whole point was to get mortal men to believe in their own champions instead of depending on magic to save them. As a wizard, and magical creature, Merlin could never be the idol that the common man aspired to live up to. That's why Gandalf needed every one else. The people had to believe in the power and nobility of the people of middle earth and not the wizards.

He was more based on the works of the Norse Sagas. I have little doubt that some inspiration was drawn from Arthurian legends as well.

Tolkiens works are pretty famous for depicting a dark ages/ middle ages type fantasy setting dealing with strong themes of 'good' and 'evil' yet also with the notable absence of a centralised church or religion of any kind (in stark contrast to our own earth).

[Sigreid]

He was more based on the works of the Norse Sagas. I have little doubt that some inspiration was drawn from Arthurian legends as well.

Tolkiens works are pretty famous for depicting a dark ages/ middle ages type fantasy setting dealing with strong themes of 'good' and 'evil' yet also with the notable absence of a centralised church or religion of any kind (in stark contrast to our own earth).

Well, given the amount of cross-pollination between groups that traded, raided and married each other in Europe at that time a lot of similarities are to be expected.

[krugaan]

I see what you did there. :smallbiggrin:

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/not_really_into_pokemon.png

sadly, i don't think anyone else did :(

[Specter]

I think Gandalf was based at least in part on Merlin. Merlin typically refrained from using magic to solve problems that the knights could solve themselves because the whole point was to get mortal men to believe in their own champions instead of depending on magic to save them. As a wizard, and magical creature, Merlin could never be the idol that the common man aspired to live up to. That's why Gandalf needed every one else. The people had to believe in the power and nobility of the people of middle earth and not the wizards.

This is actually pretty inspiring as a campaign idea. Having mages not on board with solving everyone's problems because people need to go out there snd at least try. If the party's sorcerer starts blasting through everything, maybe it's time one of the members of this order come pay him a visit and say "hey man, stop giving guys bonfires - cause they can't even find a stick."

[RickAllison]

This is actually pretty inspiring as a campaign idea. Having mages not on board with solving everyone's problems because people need to go out there snd at least try. If the party's sorcerer starts blasting through everything, maybe it's time one of the members of this order come pay him a visit and say "hey man, stop giving guys bonfires - cause they can't even find a stick."

And now I know what my next campaign may feature...

[Rusvul]

A wizard Gandalf may be... but not a D&D wizard. Many literary/movie characters don't carry over very well to D&D, Gandalf is one of them. Trouble is, whatever you model him as, he wasn't using all of his class features.

It's certainly fun to think about though.

[SharkForce]

the movie clips are pretty loose interpretations from the books. which is understandable, considering it makes for much more cinematic imagery if the wizard duel has guys shooting bolts of force at each other and such.

but notice gandalf never actually says who did what, or even really says that there was actual thunder and lightning, just that it seemed like it. loud noises and bright lights on a mountain while there's a lot of steam (two fire-based guys fighting, one of which is frankly quite large, not to mention all the loose rock and snow getting sent into avalanches) and it's raining ice (which you'd expect on the top of a mountain that is freezing cold when there's two guys evaporating the snow on it and sending steam into the air as a side effect of their battle).

if demigod gandalf wasn't widely understood when D&D was released, early 2000s movie gandalf wasn't even imagined.

frankly, if gandalf was the main inspiration for a D&D wizard, they'd be using weapons for the most part and only occasionally use any magic at all.

[RickAllison]

the movie clips are pretty loose interpretations from the books. which is understandable, considering it makes for much more cinematic imagery if the wizard duel has guys shooting bolts of force at each other and such.

but notice gandalf never actually says who did what, or even really says that there was actual thunder and lightning, just that it seemed like it. loud noises and bright lights on a mountain while there's a lot of steam (two fire-based guys fighting, one of which is frankly quite large, not to mention all the loose rock and snow getting sent into avalanches) and it's raining ice (which you'd expect on the top of a mountain that is freezing cold when there's two guys evaporating the snow on it and sending steam into the air as a side effect of their battle).

if demigod gandalf wasn't widely understood when D&D was released, early 2000s movie gandalf wasn't even imagined.

frankly, if gandalf was the main inspiration for a D&D wizard, they'd be using weapons for the most part and only occasionally use any magic at all.

See, I have not actually seen people use him as the basis for D&D's wizard (and for good reason). I know the most recent one, the one that I think sparked this thread, was Gandalf being used as an example for how Sword+Sorcery in one character not only wasn't the product of 3.P as one poster claimed, but actually predated OD&D by at least decades. Merlin would be a much better prototypical wizard. He may have gone into battle with sword and shield because he thought the common people needed heroes rather than demigods, but he was ultimately a God Wizard manipulating things so the heroes could win. He could use a sword, but it wasn't a go-to method like for Gandalf with Glamdring.

[Arkhios]

I mean...

If we want to get right to brass tacks, Gandalf isn't the prototypical D&D wizard at all. Mazirian the Magician (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazirian_the_Magician) is. Gygax's idea of magic and spellcasting borrowed much more heavily from Jack Vance's The Dying Earth series than from Middle Earth, where magic is treated as a much less clinical concept and more as wondrous and occasionally miraculous powers with a hint of the divine. Gandalf looks like the prototypical wizard, with his large, floppy hat, disheveled robes, long, white beard, and crooked staff, but then again, so does the most popular depiction of Merlin.

Yeah but we all know Gary just said that to get the Tolkien lawyers of his back.

Do we now? Have you ever heard of D&D magic being referred to as "Vancian magic"? That term has Vance's name written all over it. To me Gandalf's magic is much more down-to-earth than explosive fireballs and crackling lightning bolts. Gandalf may be a wizard, yes, but a wizard of the Middle Earth. That doesn't mean they would or should fit for the D&D classification of a wizard.


"High in the air {Gandalf} tossed the blazing brand. It flared with a sudden white radiance like lightning; and his voiced rolled like thunder.
'Naur an edraith ammen! Naur dan in ngaurhoth!' he cried.
There was a roar and a crackle, an the tree above him burst into a leaf and bloom of blinding flame. The fire leapt from tree-top to tree-top. The whole hill was crowned with dazzling light. The swords and knives of the defenders shone and flickered. The last arrow of Legolas kindled in the air as it flew, and plunged burning into the heart of a great wolf-chieftain. All the others fled."

So, Fire Bolt? Hehe.

Jesus, relax. Of course you can't peg dudes into classes or archetypes; you can't even do that with D&D characters!

That, or like in the movie we saw: it could be Produce Flame, igniting acorns is more like a druidic feat. Which led me to wonder if Gandalf (in D&D terms) was actually more close to a Druid or Nature Domain Cleric instead of a Wizard. Like I said above, Gandalf's magic is more down-to-earth, which druidic spells certainly are. (and his ability to speak to and charm animals of all size and shape: the butterflies, the giant eagles, Shadowfax speaks volumes about the Nature Domain Channel Divinity: Charm Animals and Plants AND their domain spells Speak with Animals and Animal Friendship)



I see what you did there. :smallbiggrin:

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/not_really_into_pokemon.png
sadly, i don't think anyone else did :(

The Force is strong in this forum. If by Force you mean Autistic Behaviour.
Sarcasm aside, if it's of any consolation to you, I did.


He was more based on the works of the Norse Sagas. I have little doubt that some inspiration was drawn from Arthurian legends as well.

Tolkiens works are pretty famous for depicting a dark ages/ middle ages type fantasy setting dealing with strong themes of 'good' and 'evil' yet also with the notable absence of a centralised church or religion of any kind (in stark contrast to our own earth).

Tolkien took loads of inspiration not only from Nordic Mythology but from other Scandinavian folklore as well (and Arthurian mythology). However, "The figure of Gandalf is particularly influenced by the Norse deity Odin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._R._R._Tolkien%27s_influences#Nordic_influences) in his incarnation as "The Wanderer", an old man with one eye, a long white beard, a wide brimmed hat, and a staff. Tolkien, in a letter of 1946, nearly a decade after the character was invented, wrote that he thought of Gandalf as an "Odinic wanderer". Much like Odin, Gandalf promotes justice, knowledge, truth, and insight."
So, that in mind Gandalf is more divine than you might think. The generic definition of a wizard doesn't necessarily refer to someone casting arcane magic (that's more of a D&D differentiation).

[georgie_leech]

sadly, i don't think anyone else did :(

Add me to the list of people that got the reference.

I'm curious, beyond casting spells which part of Gandalf fits the mechanics of the Wizard class? He didn't use a spell book, had an explicitly divine origin, fought with Sword more often than Spell, tamed (it's more complicated than that but close enough) a Superspecialawesome horse, led Men into battle, and wandered the world with a song on his lips. Yeah, his title is Wizard, but that was definitely not a training thing as far as Tolkien was concerned. As much as the OP apparently hates to hear it, him and the Balrog were a similar class of creature. Why the insistence that he be modeled with Wizard rather than Bard or Paladin or something? Or even some multiclass monstrosity, the guy was the definition of a varied skill set.

[Regitnui]

Is gandalf a demigod? Yes. By lore, he's a minor god incarnated in human form. Is he a wizard? Debatable, which most of this thread has been about.

[Zejety]

Side note: I think I've read that Bladesingers don't literally sing. They are named like that for the sound and the rythm of their weapons slicing through the air.

[Knaight]

Yeah but we all know Gary just said that to get the Tolkien lawyers of his back.
The emergence of the terms "Halfing" and "Balor" were Gygax making changes to get the Tolkien lawyers off his back. Mentioning an inspiration isn't going to attract them in the first place, and Dying Earth is explicitly one of the major influences of D&D. Lord of the Rings is another, mythology is another, and pulpy Sword and Sorcery rounds it out. This particular case comes from vance.


Do we now? Have you ever heard of D&D magic being referred to as "Vancian magic"? That term has Vance's name written all over it. To me Gandalf's magic is much more down-to-earth than explosive fireballs and crackling lightning bolts. Gandalf may be a wizard, yes, but a wizard of the Middle Earth. That doesn't mean they would or should fit for the D&D classification of a wizard.
Exactly this. On top of that, even Vance's wizards don't fit the D&D classification too well. While both sources do at least use memorized distinct spells the Vancian spells have an entirely different feel than almost all of the D&D spells. There's also the number of spells - someone able to hold 6 spells in their head simultaneously is obviously an extremely powerful wizard you don't mess with in Vance's work, 6 spell slots in D&D is jack all.

[Arkhios]

Side note: I think I've read that Bladesingers don't literally sing. They are named like that for the sound and the rythm of their weapons slicing through the air.

This might be a bit far-fetched, but what if Bladesingers didn't refer to singing at all, but to Singe (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/singe) instead. :P

[Specter]

And now I know what my next campaign may feature...

Right??????

[TheYell]

Pretty sure there is no room in D&D for resurrection and a level up because God.

[NNescio]

I might be wrong, but wasn't Gandalf actually a 20th level fighter with the Magic Initiate feat? I mean, he cast minor illusion and light occasionally, but most of the time he was just running around beating people into pulp dual-wielding a longsword and a quarterstaff. He honestly probably just wore the robes to trick minions into trying to chip away at his mountain of hit points while he smote them by the dozen.

Gandalf is far more a cunning Fighter than a Wizard in my opinion. He just knew how to play on peoples' expectations.

Edit: Dangit Specter.

He's more like a Bard. His key feature is Inspire Courage, after all. Perform (Oratory), of course.


Whenever someone brings up Gandalf as a prototypical model for the D&D wizard, two posts later someone will bring up the Silmalrillion and say "Well, Gandalf doesn't count as a wizard 'cuz of this super boring book."

I kinda just want to point out that when D&D was being created, The Silmalrillion had not yet been published (probably with good reason) so this version of Gandalf doesn't count. The wizard prototype is the Gandalf from The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. And that was just some dude in a hat.

So let my wizard be awesome and be mortal at the same time.

PS Yeah I know it was written years before, but if no one read it, it had no influence on fantasy culture.

OK now you can start your rage.

Gandalf basically fits the role of the Odinic wanderer archetype of a wizard (and Odin is a god). Merlin (this one's a cambion) is also inspired by the same. These wizards usually don't throw around a lot of spells or magical effects. Instead they primarily act as loremasters or counsel to the main hero. They serve to guide the hero, so they can't just solve every single problem with a snap of their fingers, after all.

From a DnD perspective, however, Gandalf barely casts any spells. He tells stories, sing sometimes, and the occasional spells he uses involve making light or manipulating fire and smoke (his signature spell before he went White was basically Pyrotechnics). Quite Bardlike, isn't he?

And his main shtick is Bardic Inspiration, really. Granted, this used to work better in 3.5e where you could be a Bard without using any instruments (Perform [Oratory]). He does seem to also have the ability to invoke some sort of Turn effect on evil creatures though.

Lorewise, Gandalf is implied to be somewhat divine in nature (alluding to the Odinic archetype) in his comments about Tom Bombadil (another Solar/Planetar Bard) and Sauron, and in the 'council meeting' in Rivendell. And the whole part about sacrificing himself to defeat the Balrog and coming back whi basically turns him into a messianic archetype on top of that. Again, none of these directly imply that Gandalf is a demigod, but Appendix VI of Lord of the Rings clearly states that the Wizards/Istari are neither Men nor Elf, and that they came from the Far West. Cross-referencing with the epilogue of The Return of the King and Appendix I strongly indicates that the Far West refers to the Undying Lands. From this we can infer that the Wizards are angelic beings of some sort (and Sauron is a fallen representative).

TL;DR: Gandalf is a cross between Odin and Väinämöinen, with a healthy pinch of Jesus.

[Lombra]

But the magic of D&D isn't the magic of LoTR. It's two different fantasy worlds with different rules: a level 20 D&D wizard would be close to a god in the LoTR universe, wizards and magic are so different in the two tropes that I'd argue are impossible to compare.

But yes he's closer to a low-level magic-initiate fighter with lots of magic items.

[Anonymouswizard]

Gandalf is weird. I'm not sure how he works ME lorewise, but to adjust what I understand to D&D terms, he's a high-level Outsider with a normal human body, who can only access a portion of his great power. He may or may not have a variable limit to what he can use based on his CR, or he might just be skilled enough (read: gained enough class levels) to kill a Balrog without his full power.

Now, it is possible to build Gandalf in D&D, it's just weird. What do we know about his abilities?
-He fights with sword and staff.
-He can do some fire magic, possibly using his ring of power.
-He has some big magic tricks he can pull out if needed (bare in mind that, for Middle Earth, a 3rd level spell would be powerful).
-He has a lot of knowledge (and wisdom, which is his key thing, but he's also knowledgeable).
-He inspires people.
(-Please add any I've missed.)

This is speaking one word to me: Bard. I'd personally go for Lore Bard because he fights unarmoured, but I could see him being Valour. He probably has a few levels of fighter mixed in there as well. Note that for 3.X Bard is generally agreed to be a good measure of Gandalf's abilities, but he's not as casty as the 5e bard.

To give him a rough 5e build, assuming that Aragorn is a 5th level character with some combination of Fighter/Paladin/Ranger (any or all), I'd peg Gandalf, even in mortal form, as a good few levels higher than Aragorn. So as a minimum I'd say Gandalf is a Bard (Lore) 5/Fighter (Champion) 3, possibly all the way up to 15th (assuming Aragorn/Legolas/Gimli are in the 8-10 range if Gandalf is so high).

But yes, LotR is much lower in power level than high level 5e. I'd peg most of the Hobbits at levels 1-2, Samwise at level 3 by the story's end (he's a tough little fighter/rogue, but not enough to defeat armies), Aragorn/Legolas/Gimli at level 5-6, and Gandalf at level 8-10. To other people this will be off the mark, but it's how I interpret the power level.

[RickAllison]

Gandalf is weird. I'm not sure how he works ME lorewise, but to adjust what I understand to D&D terms, he's a high-level Outsider with a normal human body, who can only access a portion of his great power. He may or may not have a variable limit to what he can use based on his CR, or he might just be skilled enough (read: gained enough class levels) to kill a Balrog without his full power.

Now, it is possible to build Gandalf in D&D, it's just weird. What do we know about his abilities?
-He fights with sword and staff.
-He can do some fire magic, possibly using his ring of power.
-He has some big magic tricks he can pull out if needed (bare in mind that, for Middle Earth, a 3rd level spell would be powerful).
-He has a lot of knowledge (and wisdom, which is his key thing, but he's also knowledgeable).
-He inspires people.
(-Please add any I've missed.)

This is speaking one word to me: Bard. I'd personally go for Lore Bard because he fights unarmoured, but I could see him being Valour. He probably has a few levels of fighter mixed in there as well. Note that for 3.X Bard is generally agreed to be a good measure of Gandalf's abilities, but he's not as casty as the 5e bard.

To give him a rough 5e build, assuming that Aragorn is a 5th level character with some combination of Fighter/Paladin/Ranger (any or all), I'd peg Gandalf, even in mortal form, as a good few levels higher than Aragorn. So as a minimum I'd say Gandalf is a Bard (Lore) 5/Fighter (Champion) 3, possibly all the way up to 15th (assuming Aragorn/Legolas/Gimli are in the 8-10 range if Gandalf is so high).

But yes, LotR is much lower in power level than high level 5e. I'd peg most of the Hobbits at levels 1-2, Samwise at level 3 by the story's end (he's a tough little fighter/rogue, but not enough to defeat armies), Aragorn/Legolas/Gimli at level 5-6, and Gandalf at level 8-10. To other people this will be off the mark, but it's how I interpret the power level.

Bare is a good fit. It covers why he has spells from all over the place, his skill set, and his rather persuasive demeanor.

[georgie_leech]

Bare is a good fit. It covers why he has spells from all over the place, his skill set, and his rather persuasive demeanor.

Indeed. Bard is a pretty good fit in this edition, though in 3.x I recall the meme being that he was a 5th level Paladin or something. As Miko taught us, just because your title matches a Class name, doesn't mean you have levels in that Class.

[RickAllison]

Indeed. Bard is a pretty good fit in this edition, though in 3.x I recall the meme being that he was a 5th level Paladin or something. As Miko taught us, just because your title matches a Class name, doesn't mean you have levels in that Class.

Oh yeah, one of my favorite concepts is an assassin. Not an Assassin, but just assassin. She is a tiny human monk whose favorite method of assassination involves beating the target to death with a Large quarterstaff.

[Regitnui]

Oh yeah, one of my favorite concepts is an assassin. Not an Assassin, but just assassin. She is a tiny human monk whose favorite method of assassination involves beating the target to death with a Large quarterstaff.

Is she blonde and in a sexual tension-ridden relationship with a wizard with a penchant for longcoats and firespells?

[georgie_leech]

Is she blonde and in a sexual tension-ridden relationship with a wizard with a penchant for longcoats and firespells?
If you're referencing what I think you're referencing, I don't think she ever used an oversized quarterstaff. Regular quarterstaff, sure. Guns and a Sword, sure. But never something unwieldy like a big stick

[krugaan]

Add me to the list of people that got the reference.




The Force is strong in this forum. If by Force you mean Autistic Behaviour.
Sarcasm aside, if it's of any consolation to you, I did.


I'm coming to the conclusion that:

a) the joke was not nearly as funny as I thought it was, and

b) people like Lord of the Rings several orders of magnitude more than I.

[Regitnui]

If you're referencing what I think you're referencing, I don't think she ever used an oversized quarterstaff. Regular quarterstaff, sure. Guns and a Sword, sure. But never something unwieldy like a big stick

That's the difference between an homage and a copy paste.

[georgie_leech]

That's the difference between an homage and a copy paste.

Pretty hard to copy-paste in D&D. I don't think we ever saw her catch arrows or channel inner energy to jump 30 foot gaps. :smalltongue: Just saying I understood the reference is all.

[R.Shackleford]

Really Gandalf isn't anything D&D, he is old school Final Fantasy.

Dude is a Red Mage.

Then after his sister was turned to crystal he went on and did a quest and eventually became god....

What? No? I'm pretty sure old Gandy is Red Mage Lightning.

[Regitnui]

Pretty hard to copy-paste in D&D. I don't think we ever saw her catch arrows or channel inner energy to jump 30 foot gaps. :smalltongue: Just saying I understood the reference is all.

We still might. :smallgrin: Fistbump, my friend.

[Raimun]

What? Silmarillion is awesome. There's so much of that rich, fictional history.

And Gandalf totally doesn't count. In whatever the original question was about.

[RickAllison]

Is she blonde and in a sexual tension-ridden relationship with a wizard with a penchant for longcoats and firespells?

Not even close, and I am not even sure what you are referencing. I did base her off a gender-swapped version of a character: Ruby's love from Once Upon a Time. Basically played out as her story did where my PC's unknowingly-werebear lover fled with her to the wilderness because he thought she was the werebear. He tied her up for the night, but ended up transforming himself when the moon rose. But she was a Long Death monk with sky-high Con, so she ended up surviving unless the OUaT version. Not a pleasant experience, but they moved on. They went out to see the world, try new foods, and just be a happy couple.

As a character, she is actually very maternal. She cooks, always watches out for her babies (Perception), is good at figuring out when things are amiss (Investigation), always knows best (all Lore skills), and always makes sure her babies are well-groomed. Oh and when her babies are threatened, she becomes a literal Mama Bear, cracking skulls open as a gigantic panda bear before gnawing on their entrails. Which is why she always wears a rather oversized kimono, so she doesn't worry about it tearing.

[Anonymouswizard]

Not even close, and I am not even sure what you are referencing.

Karrin Murphy a.k.a. Murph from The Dresden Files (the books in this case, not the TV show*). If I may fanboy for a moment, OMG Skin Game where is the series going to go now (I actually began the series rather late in, and I'm still catching up, but I've read the last 3).

If you haven't read it I suggest doing so, the books are awesome.

* I should mention that I prefer the books, but like the TV show as a separate thing.

[RickAllison]

Karrin Murphy a.k.a. Murph from The Dresden Files (the books in this case, not the TV show*). If I may fanboy for a moment, OMG Skin Game where is the series going to go now (I actually began the series rather late in, and I'm still catching up, but I've read the last 3).

If you haven't read it I suggest doing so, the books are awesome.

* I should mention that I prefer the books, but like the TV show as a separate thing.

I've heard good things about them and they are on my to-do list!

[Inchoroi]

Do we now? Have you ever heard of D&D magic being referred to as "Vancian magic"? That term has Vance's name written all over it. To me Gandalf's magic is much more down-to-earth than explosive fireballs and crackling lightning bolts. Gandalf may be a wizard, yes, but a wizard of the Middle Earth. That doesn't mean they would or should fit for the D&D classification of a wizard.



That, or like in the movie we saw: it could be Produce Flame, igniting acorns is more like a druidic feat. Which led me to wonder if Gandalf (in D&D terms) was actually more close to a Druid or Nature Domain Cleric instead of a Wizard. Like I said above, Gandalf's magic is more down-to-earth, which druidic spells certainly are. (and his ability to speak to and charm animals of all size and shape: the butterflies, the giant eagles, Shadowfax speaks volumes about the Nature Domain Channel Divinity: Charm Animals and Plants AND their domain spells Speak with Animals and Animal Friendship)



The Force is strong in this forum. If by Force you mean Autistic Behaviour.
Sarcasm aside, if it's of any consolation to you, I did.



Tolkien took loads of inspiration not only from Nordic Mythology but from other Scandinavian folklore as well (and Arthurian mythology). However, "The figure of Gandalf is particularly influenced by the Norse deity Odin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._R._R._Tolkien%27s_influences#Nordic_influences) in his incarnation as "The Wanderer", an old man with one eye, a long white beard, a wide brimmed hat, and a staff. Tolkien, in a letter of 1946, nearly a decade after the character was invented, wrote that he thought of Gandalf as an "Odinic wanderer". Much like Odin, Gandalf promotes justice, knowledge, truth, and insight."
So, that in mind Gandalf is more divine than you might think. The generic definition of a wizard doesn't necessarily refer to someone casting arcane magic (that's more of a D&D differentiation).





Huh. TIL Gandalf is a cleric of odin.

Fun.

[Klorox]

Side note: I think I've read that Bladesingers don't literally sing. They are named like that for the sound and the rythm of their weapons slicing through the air.

You are correct.

Bladesingers were introduced in the AD&D 2e "The Complete Book of Elves" and the books says that's why they're called Bladesingers.

[Klorox]

Gandalf? Sorry, I'm not really into Pokémon.

Did someone get hurt trying to catch one? Like, walking into traffic or something?

LMAO. I'm stealing this line.

[RickAllison]

LMAO. I'm stealing this line.

"Gandalf, I choose you! Gandalf? Why are you drinking tea?"
"A Pokemon is never early, nor is he late. He arrives precisely when he intends to."
"... I'm signing you up for the breeding program, I want a different personality on this one!"

[Logosloki]

Huh. TIL Gandalf is a cleric of odin.

Fun.

Hmmm. Maybe middle earth is a mostly low level gritty realism setting. Gandalf as a cleric of eru uses his ability to commune with eru to get access to his original form when he needs it the most.

[gkathellar]

Honestly, the only game I can think of that'd represent Gandalf well is Scion, where God-ranked characters are ethereal but can send lesser version of themselves into the physical world using the Avatar merit. Most of the rest of the cast are mortals, heroic mortals, and the occasional lesser immortal. Big shots like Galadriel, Saruman, Sauron, the Balrog, and maybe a few others might also be using the Scion rules.

[darkdragoon]

*He tries to seal a door or such in Moria but the Balrog counterspells and ends up blowing up the door.

*He is known to appear taller and more fearsome in combat and on a couple other occasions. So buff spells?

*Animal Messenger

*some form of Searing Light or such that bothers the Ringwraiths


Really Gandalf isn't anything D&D, he is old school Final Fantasy.

Dude is a Red Mage.

Then after his sister was turned to crystal he went on and did a quest and eventually became god....

What? No? I'm pretty sure old Gandy is Red Mage Lightning.

The FF1 mages were apparently based on Dragonlance's robes, actually. Since then they've thrown in other colors and offshoots.

[Klorox]

The FF1 mages were apparently based on Dragonlance's robes, actually. Since then they've thrown in other colors and offshoots.

Could you please provide a source? Other than the colors matching, I see zero similarities between Dragonlance mages and FF1 mages.

[Hrugner]

I agree with the bard votes for Gandalf. For him it's all about influence, knowledge, and some minor magical effects to help others do well. Also, I think his kind sang the world into existence, so there's that. Much of his magic comes from a ring of power though, so he could just be a fighter with a magic ring and lots of knowledge.

[LordVonDerp]

Maybe, but Gandalf's appearance was mainly based on Odin, with his actions based on old stories of God's getting mortals to do their bidding.

[R.Shackleford]

Maybe, but Gandalf's appearance was mainly based on Odin, with his actions based on old stories of God's getting mortals to do their bidding.

I'm just going to leave this here... I want more people to learn a bit about the Norse gods.

http://www.veritablehokum.com/comic/the-norse-god-family-tree/


Odin and ole' gandy do look simular.

[krugaan]

LMAO. I'm stealing this line.

hah, as other people have noted, I stole it from xckd.


"Gandalf, I choose you! Gandalf? Why are you drinking tea?"
"A Pokemon is never early, nor is he late. He arrives precisely when he intends to."
"... I'm signing you up for the breeding program, I want a different personality on this one!"

A wild balrog appears!

GANDALF uses UNOPASS! It's super effective!

[R.Shackleford]

hah, as other people have noted, I stole it from xckd.



A wild balrog appears!

GANDALF uses UNOPASS! It's super effective!


I think you mean that Gandy is a pokemon trainer and he used NOsepass as his pokemon.

[krugaan]

I think you mean that Gandy is a pokemon trainer and he used NOsepass as his pokemon.

In the original post I think I was implying that Gandalf was a kind of pokemon, but whatever, at this point.

I'll admit, it's been years and years since I played the game.

[darkdragoon]

Could you please provide a source? Other than the colors matching, I see zero similarities between Dragonlance mages and FF1 mages.

That was about it, and practically vestigial now.

[Xetheral]

He's not a Demi-god.

There is only One God in ME. Eru. Its a monotheistic realm.

The Valar and Maia are Angels (and in some cases Demons or fallen Angels), not Gods.

While Eru is certainly an order of being higher than the Valar, I'd be hard-pressed to call any Vala merely an angel. Keep in mind they could (and did!) raise and lower entire mountain ranges, create oceans, and otherwise resurface the planet in the days before the Elves first showed up. (And Melkor kept doing so even after that, at least while he was still able.) That level of power seems much more in keeping with (what I perceive to be) general notions of a diety, rather than an angel.

When it comes to the Maiar, you may have more of a point, although I'd note that they seem to vary in power quite a lot: Gothmog (not the weakest Maia!) was killed in single combat with Ecthelion a (mere) Noldorin Elf, but Eonwe (the most powerful Maia other than, perhaps, Ungoliant?) and his host of Vanyarin Elves were able to move the (smashed) mountains of Thangorodrim. Dying to an Elf Lord seems reasonable for an Angel, but mountain-moving seems more like Demigod territory, even though he had help.

Ultimately, however ones chooses to classify the Valar and Maiar into "traditional" categories, there is going to be room for argument, and classifying at least the Maiar as either Angels or Demigods both seem like reasonable choices to me. I certainly don't think there is any room to complain that those who label Gandalf and the other Maiar as Demigods are wrong.