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FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-08-09, 09:03 PM
We are currently in the process of brewing the avenger for use in 5e, any comments corrections, or suggestions please feel free to comment.

Avenger (Natural-Crit):

http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/SJG_0pIK

Under Construction
The class is almost done just one more feature and then some polishing.



All features need to be checked for typos and wording.
Balancing and such.


Change-log:



Modified Oath of Enmity to only work if the target is by themselves.
Changed Hallowed Constitution to only advantage against disease and poison.
Changed spellcasting to a spell point variant
Modified censure of unity's spell list to avoid overlap
Added "Nowhere to Run" and "Nowhere to Hide" to the censure of pursuit subclass.
Removed "Blessed Speed"
Modified Oath of Enmity
Finished Channel Divinities
Modified "Oath of malice", changed name to "Guise of Malice"
Modified "As One" and "Together we Stand"
Finished level 6 features.
Added "Sign of Favor", "Celestial Assistance", and modified oath of unity's channel divinities.
Swapped some names around.
Modified "Celestial Assistance" and "Sign of Favor"
Flushed out retribution sub-class.
Finished subclasses
Added "Providence"
Expanded avenger spell-list
Modified "Stricken form the Records", now requires a save.
Removed "Providence"
Modified "Armor of Faith" it's now 9 + dex + prof.
Modified "Oath of Enmity" Now a number of times per day, but can be transferred like hunter's mark.
Modified "Oath of Enmity" Now only last for a single minute.
Changes Avenger "Prayer Point" progression to match the paladin spellcasting.
"Bond of Unity" changed to 30 feet
Fixed wording for "As One", now more clear.
Fixed wording for "Sign of Favor", now more clear.
"Nowhere to Hide" now penetrates invisibility and darkness.
"Oath of Enmity" now disallows use of heavy armor.
This is becoming a really long list.
Added "Penance"
Modified "Final Oath" both sides no longer deal max damage but instead deal double damage.
Added "Damnation" at level 20
Modified "Nowhere to Run" no longer a carbon copy of "Relentless Avenger"

Rerem115
2016-08-09, 09:22 PM
You might want to make Oath of Enmity spend a limited resource, because hot damn, at will advantage that can be transferred to any enemy is strong. I know you tried to prevent multiclassing shenanigans by limiting it to STR based attacks only, but Rogues can still dip this; STR Rogues are quite possible, because finesse weapons can use STR or DEX for damage.

Also, spell progression is weird; you're a half caster that only gets up to 4th level spells.

Rerem115
2016-08-09, 09:29 PM
Advantage on Constitution saves is also very strong, especially for a half-caster. Thinking of spells, Censure of Unity kind of gets the shaft regarding Oath spells; while its compatriots get monsters like Hunter's Mark, Spirit Guardians, Hold Person and Armor of Agathys, it gets Bless, a spell that should probably already be on a divine caster's spell list, and some other utility spells, which are all fine, just not on the same level of power. Considering the class gets advantage on CON saves, I'd suggest tuning down the first two Oath lists a little, while buffing Unity. Maybe add a heal spell or two?

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-08-09, 09:45 PM
You might want to make Oath of Enmity spend a limited resource, because hot damn, at will advantage that can be transferred to any enemy is strong. I know you tried to prevent multiclassing shenanigans by limiting it to STR based attacks only, but Rogues can still dip this; STR Rogues are quite possible, because finesse weapons can use STR or DEX for damage.

Also, spell progression is weird; you're a half caster that only gets up to 4th level spells.

Okay I put in a Oath condition so that usage is a little trickier. Also switching targets is trickier than it seems, it requires both your action, and bonus action to switch targets.

The spell progression is weird, but for a reason, in the past thread someone balanced out the math so that this half-warlock casting lines up with the normal half-casting, you can still get 5th level spells but only through "holy inspiration". If you would like i could provide the link.

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-08-09, 09:46 PM
Advantage on Constitution saves is also very strong, especially for a half-caster. Thinking of spells, Censure of Unity kind of gets the shaft regarding Oath spells; while its compatriots get monsters like Hunter's Mark, Spirit Guardians, Hold Person and Armor of Agathys, it gets Bless, a spell that should probably already be on a divine caster's spell list, and some other utility spells, which are all fine, just not on the same level of power. Considering the class gets advantage on CON saves, I'd suggest tuning down the first two Oath lists a little, while buffing Unity. Maybe add a heal spell or two?

The Con advantage was to balance out the class's naturally low constitution score, but I do see the problem, I'll limit it to Disease and Poison saves only.

As for the spells, I'll look through the available ones and maybe switch some out.

Rerem115
2016-08-09, 10:41 PM
I took a second look at the casting, and you might want to make it an actual half caster; 3 total spell slots at 20th level is actually ridiculously underpowered. :smalltongue:

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-08-09, 11:12 PM
I took a second look at the casting, and you might want to make it an actual half caster; 3 total spell slots at 20th level is actually ridiculously underpowered. :smalltongue:

Even though it's on a short rest recharge?

I wanted the casting to be warlock style because the relationship between an Avenger and it's god is much more akin to a warlock them a cleric. But if you think I should change it I do have an idea for a replacement.

Rerem115
2016-08-09, 11:35 PM
Warlocks can get away with it because they have both Eldritch Blast and Invocations to help them with their utility and sustained damage; they just need their spells for nova.

....I gotta clarify a few things.

It's a little late for me so this may so this may not make sense, but these are the problems as I see them.

---You're a striker type class with a focus on high nova and frontline disruption, like a rogue or a paladin, but between d8 hit dice, no armor, and lack of an escape like Cunning Action or built in heal like Lay on Hands, you're going to be fairly squishy. Evasion helps make up the difference, but you're no tank, even though you want to be on the front lines. Warlocks can get away with their squishyness because of Eldritch Blast, but you don't have that.

---Your nova is tied to your spells, specifically your smites. Paladins, by virtue of having a larger pool of spell slots, have greater nova potential, as they have more smites to spend. Yes, they will be severely gimped for the rest of the day, but they can do a lot of damage in that one fight. On the other hand, while your spells recharge on a short rest on an Avenger, you still have a maximum of only three, which will hurt when you reach the BBEG, or if your DM hates short rests (Like every DM I've ever had :smalltongue:)

Since the class is, as of now, incomplete, this may be rectified later, but with just the material presented, I'd recommend changing the hit dice to d10s and giving standard half-casting, instead of warlock casting. Also, maybe consider unarmored AC to be 13 + Dex, a la Draconic Sorcerer? That would help alleviate some of the MADness early game.

As a side note, you may want to go through your Oath spell lists and make sure there's no overlap with the base class spell list; Dispel Evil and Good, Enhance Ability, and Freedom of Movement are on both the base class spell list and the Unity spell list.

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-08-09, 11:50 PM
---You're a striker type class with a focus on high nova and frontline disruption, like a rogue or a paladin, but between d8 hit dice, no armor, and lack of an escape like Cunning Action or built in heal like Lay on Hands, you're going to be fairly squishy. Evasion helps make up the difference, but you're no tank, even though you want to be on the front lines. Warlocks can get away with their squishyness because of Eldritch Blast, but you don't have that.


The d8 choice was to balance out the fact that the avenger is getting health off of their spellcasting stat (Angelic Fortitude). And they should be good on armor, Being the strength&wisdom class it is the dex/wis unarmored defense should start them at 15AC or so and go up to 18-19AC. As for no built in defense... We'll have to work on that.



---Your nova is tied to your spells, specifically your smites. Paladins, by virtue of having a larger pool of spell slots, have greater nova potential, as they have more smites to spend. Yes, they will be severely gimped for the rest of the day, but they can do a lot of damage in that one fight. On the other hand, while your spells recharge on a short rest on an Avenger, you still have a maximum of only three, which will hurt when you reach the BBEG, or if your DM hates short rests (Like every DM I've ever had :smalltongue:)


Yeah, I agree. I've switched out the weird half warlock casting for a spell point variant.



Since the class is, as of now, incomplete, this may be rectified later, but with just the material presented, I'd recommend changing the hit dice to d10s and giving standard half-casting, instead of warlock casting. Also, maybe consider unarmored AC to be 13 + Dex, a la Draconic Sorcerer? That would help alleviate some of the MADness early game.

D10? Maybe, probably.

Half-Casting? Let's see what people think of the spell point casting first

Draconic Armor? But it's already got unarmored defense(Armor of Faith)?

Thank you for all of the feedback!

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-08-10, 12:34 AM
As a side note, you may want to go through your Oath spell lists and make sure there's no overlap with the base class spell list; Dispel Evil and Good, Enhance Ability, and Freedom of Movement are on both the base class spell list and the Unity spell list.

Dangit, Thanks for pointing this out, I'll fix it in the morning.

Edit: Switched out repeated spells for new ones.

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-08-11, 01:50 AM
Channel Divinities are now complete, next is subclass features.

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-08-11, 02:34 PM
Finished all level 6 features, what do guys think?

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-08-11, 06:21 PM
Finished censure of Unity!

Rerem115
2016-08-11, 08:34 PM
"Starting at 6th level, whenever you or a friendly creature you see successfully hit a hostile creature they gain temporary hitpoints equal to your Wisdom modifier."

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, calm down a little. This is game breaking.

Problems with this feature:

--What is a hit? Is it a spell, a ranged attack, a melee attack, or some combination of the three? If it is a spell, does hitting multiple enemies grant extra temp hp?
--Line of sight range is really strong. If you want a feature like this, make it an aura.
--No time limit on temp hp.
--Last, but certainly not least, the sheer amount of temp hp. By the time you get this, you should have a Wis modifier of about +3, which means that you and most, if not all, of your allies will be getting up to 9 temp hp per round, with no upper limit. The only ability that heals anywhere near that much in an AoE is Mass Healing Word, which is a 3rd level spell. Essentially, you are casting Mass Healing Word without an action or a spell slot every round in combat. Game breaking.

Here's my proposed fix:

At 6th level, whenever you or an ally within 10 feet damages a hostile creature, you may use your reaction to grant temporary hit points equal to your Wisdom modifier to whoever did the damage. These hit points disappear after 1 minute.

On the subject of temporary hit points, Censure of Retribution scales a bit too well with temp hp. Armor of Agathys doesn't care where your temp hp come from; as long as the original 5 remain it does damage. With the CD granting you up to 45 temp hp, you can have it for almost the entire fight. My gut reaction is to exchange Armor of Agathys for another spell, but if you absolutely have to keep it, I'd change that CD for something else.

Again on the subject of hit points, what I meant when I said d10 hit dice was d10 + Con. d10 + Con would increase MAD slightly, but would probably be fairest in the long run. It has a high enough base so that it's comparable to other martial classes, and it allows more variability in character builds; do I build a tanky bruser, a lightning speedster, or somewhere in the middle? It also allows players to take advantage of feats and features that increase Con. And in the end, you're really not that MAD; you care about two primary stats and a secondary stat, just like Rangers, Eldritch Knights, Arcane Tricksters, and Paladins.

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-08-11, 11:25 PM
"Starting at 6th level, whenever you or a friendly creature you see successfully hit a hostile creature they gain temporary hitpoints equal to your Wisdom modifier."

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, calm down a little. This is game breaking.

Problems with this feature:

--What is a hit? Is it a spell, a ranged attack, a melee attack, or some combination of the three? If it is a spell, does hitting multiple enemies grant extra temp hp?
--Line of sight range is really strong. If you want a feature like this, make it an aura.
--No time limit on temp hp.
--Last, but certainly not least, the sheer amount of temp hp. By the time you get this, you should have a Wis modifier of about +3, which means that you and most, if not all, of your allies will be getting up to 9 temp hp per round, with no upper limit. The only ability that heals anywhere near that much in an AoE is Mass Healing Word, which is a 3rd level spell. Essentially, you are casting Mass Healing Word without an action or a spell slot every round in combat. Game breaking.

Here's my proposed fix:

At 6th level, whenever you or an ally within 10 feet damages a hostile creature, you may use your reaction to grant temporary hit points equal to your Wisdom modifier to whoever did the damage. These hit points disappear after 1 minute.

On the subject of temporary hit points, Censure of Retribution scales a bit too well with temp hp. Armor of Agathys doesn't care where your temp hp come from; as long as the original 5 remain it does damage. With the CD granting you up to 45 temp hp, you can have it for almost the entire fight. My gut reaction is to exchange Armor of Agathys for another spell, but if you absolutely have to keep it, I'd change that CD for something else.

Hold on just a sec, you do realize Temp hp doesn't stack, meaning at max bonus they could have 5 temp hitpoints.

I'm almost considering bumping it to twice your dex. Mod.

It's supposed to provide just a small damage barrier that rapidly replenishes, stopping minor damage.

Rerem115
2016-08-11, 11:57 PM
Oops, my 5e fu isn't as strong as I thought it was.:smalltongue:

Even without the stacking, I still think that the level 6 feature is too strong. Yes, it only gives up to 5 per turn, but it happens every turn, and to every ally. You're only negating about as much damage as an unoptimized Mass Healing Word, but the fact that you can do it every round at no cost significantly increases its strength. All the small bonuses add up to one really, really strong ability.

As I said earlier, I'd like to tie it to a reaction and make it have the same range as an aura. If you did that, I feel that you could make the temp hp bonus bigger, but the fact that you have to use your reaction makes it more tactical and dynamic.

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-08-12, 02:44 AM
Oops, my 5e fu isn't as strong as I thought it was.:smalltongue:

Even without the stacking, I still think that the level 6 feature is too strong. Yes, it only gives up to 5 per turn, but it happens every turn, and to every ally. You're only negating about as much damage as an unoptimized Mass Healing Word, but the fact that you can do it every round at no cost significantly increases its strength. All the small bonuses add up to one really, really strong ability.

As I said earlier, I'd like to tie it to a reaction and make it have the same range as an aura. If you did that, I feel that you could make the temp hp bonus bigger, but the fact that you have to use your reaction makes it more tactical and dynamic.

NP, I forget too.

The idea was a tiny pool that took the first few points of damage for each player, but i've dumbed it down using your suggestions for now.

Too weak, still too strong? Any ideas for 11th level?

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-08-12, 12:19 PM
I've created a level 11 ability for the Avenger, pretty cool, math checks out too.


Math:
Avenger vs. Paladin
Lvl 11

Both have 20 strength, the avenger has 16 in wisdom.

Both wield a Greatsword
Paladin uses the great weapon fighter style

Paladin: 2x((7+5+1.33+4.5)+0.05(7+1.33+4.5))= 36.94

Avenger: 2x(1.1625(7+5+3)+.098(7))= 36.24

khadgar567
2016-08-12, 12:28 PM
I've created a level 11 ability for the Avenger, pretty cool, math checks out too.


Math:
Avenger vs. Paladin
Lvl 11

Both have 20 strength, the avenger has 16 in wisdom.

Both wield a Greatsword
Paladin uses the great weapon fighter style

Paladin: 2x((7+5+1.33+4.5)+0.05(7+1.33+4.5))= 36.94

Avenger: 2x(1.1625(7+5+3)+.098(7))= 36.24
sorry mate but were is the ability

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-08-12, 12:33 PM
sorry mate but were is the ability

Sorry, the ability is "Providence" (Did the link not update?)

Providence
Your actions, guided by god, are strong as their will. Nothing will truly stop them. Starting at level 11, when you hit a creature with a melee attack you deal extra radiant damage equal to your Wisdom modifier. If you miss a creature with a melee attack you still deal radiant damage equal to your Wisdom Modifier.

khadgar567
2016-08-12, 01:05 PM
Sorry, the ability is "Providence" (Did the link not update?)

Providence
Your actions, guided by god, are strong as their will. Nothing will truly stop them. Starting at level 11, when you hit a creature with a melee attack you deal extra radiant damage equal to your Wisdom modifier. If you miss a creature with a melee attack you still deal radiant damage equal to your Wisdom Modifier.
I personaly didnt see any link but sure damage even you miss might get to powerful with optimzation

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-08-12, 01:09 PM
I personaly didnt see any link but sure damage even you miss might get to powerful with optimzation

At max it's 5 damage on a miss, unless you get wisdom capstone breaking magic items, there's no way to increase it beyond that.

khadgar567
2016-08-12, 01:33 PM
At max it's 5 damage on a miss, unless you get wisdom capstone breaking magic items, there's no way to increase it beyond that.
5 damage even nat 1 this is good and since 5e is still in its infancy i can guarantee some one find a way to turn that into (insert full attack damage) damage on nat 1 with either homebrew prc or some asmodean style rule fu

Rerem115
2016-08-12, 01:52 PM
Adding a second modifier to damage is something 5e tends to avoid; AFAIK, the only other class that gets to double down on damage like that is the Ranger, but that's only once per turn and only applicable on Favored Enemies, and it's their capstone.

With max Wisdom (You're going to max that second; your armor, casting and hp all scale off that (which is why I said earlier that hp should scale with Con)), you're essentially adding 1d8 to every strike, even if it misses, on a class that can get up to 5 (Haste, Dual wielding, Extra attack, Retribution 15) attacks.

If you want a damage boosting feature at 11th level, follow in the footsteps of the Paladin; make it 1d8 but only apply on a hit. That will make the damage more variable, and encourage critical hits.

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-08-12, 04:47 PM
Adding a second modifier to damage is something 5e tends to avoid; AFAIK, the only other class that gets to double down on damage like that is the Ranger, but that's only once per turn and only applicable on Favored Enemies, and it's their capstone.

With max Wisdom (You're going to max that second; your armor, casting and hp all scale off that (which is why I said earlier that hp should scale with Con)), you're essentially adding 1d8 to every strike, even if it misses, on a class that can get up to 5 (Haste, Dual wielding, Extra attack, Retribution 15) attacks.

If you want a damage boosting feature at 11th level, follow in the footsteps of the Paladin; make it 1d8 but only apply on a hit. That will make the damage more variable, and encourage critical hits.

The blade-lock and bladesinger both get to add their spellcasting mod to melee damage, it's not too rare of a thing to do.

And let's not bring up the ranger capstone, it's widely viewed as the worst capstone. Seriously, +Wis on ONE attack a turn and only against a strict few types of creatures, that's terrible. At the same time the barbarian gets unlimited rage and +4 Str.and Con. The druid gets infinite beast form (therefore infinite health) and the fighter gets a 4th attack.

Another reason it's +Wis. instead of d8, other than originality is a d8 doubles on crits and with the avengers expanded crit range it would deal more damage than it currently does.

Rerem115
2016-08-12, 04:49 PM
Ah, I see where you're going with that then. If you want the extra mod on damage, just make only on successful hits, and it should be fine.

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-08-12, 05:45 PM
Ah, I see where you're going with that then. If you want the extra mod on damage, just make only on successful hits, and it should be fine.

But the damage on a miss is super flavorful, and it's not like the avenger is going to miss much anyways. Also at level 11 the avenger likely has 16 or less wisdom meanig 3 or less damage.

If you still think it should be dropped, I'll just cut it entirely. A flat mod an damage is rather bland.

Now I just need a capstone...

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-08-12, 05:57 PM
5 damage even nat 1 this is good and since 5e is still in its infancy i can guarantee some one find a way to turn that into (insert full attack damage) damage on nat 1 with either homebrew prc or some asmodean style rule fu

As 5e ages and more matierial is introduced, certain game-breaking combos will inevitably appear and I'll have to return and make errata patches.

And on the homebrew bit, if someone is brewing rules and abilities that mesh perfectly with this, they may well be trying just to break the game.

I will adjust it so it doesn't apply on a nat 1 though, thanks.

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-08-13, 01:47 PM
Lots of small tweaks and fixes, we're getting there.

Does anyone have an idea for a capstone?
I'm stumped right now.

JNAProductions
2016-08-13, 01:59 PM
You should not have Wisdom as your HP modifier. It should be Con.

Oath of Enmity is OP. It's free advantage against a target, usable AT-WILL. Compare that to the Vengeance Paladin's Channel Divinity, which is much the same... But uses CD as a resource.

You should have normal casting, not spell points. That's an unfair advantage over other casters.

Blade of Zeal... Seems okay? It's got a 19/400 chance of proccing, which is about 1/20 (just under) so I don't think that's overpowered or anything.

Providence seems too strong. It's more powerful than the Paladin equivalent-Improved Divine Smite-since it's both a higher number (+5 damage, rather than +1d8 [4.5] damage) and it works on a miss. I do suppose you're not likely to have 20 in Wisdom at level 11, though, but since it still procs on a miss it's at least as powerful at the level you get it, and becomes more powerful with time.

Stricken From The Records is either OP as hell or absolutely useless, and either way, it doesn't seem to fit the class. I'd require someone to make a Charisma saving throw against your Spell DC to have any divinations work on you.

Ghost of Vengeance is pretty powerful... But it's also a level 14 feature. I'd want it playtested, but it doesn't seem too bad.

Given Grace would be OP as hell one level earlier-3 level dip into Berserker for a free third attack. But, since it just so happens to be at level 18, it's fine. Powerful, but level 18 features should be.

Guise of Malice should be limited. Maybe Wisdom Mod times per short rest?

Lay Bare is too much. I'm not sure how to nerf it properly, though.

Overall, it seems reasonably good... EXCEPT FOR THE CORE FEATURE, OATH OF ENMITY!

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-08-13, 05:01 PM
You should not have Wisdom as your HP modifier. It should be Con.

This actually has a reason for it, without it the class begins to fall into MAD. Needing Str. for attacks, Dex. for armor, Con. for health, and Wis. for casting, with only 5 ABIs it's impossible to build a competative class based on 4 seperate ability scores.

This could be remedied by forcing finesse weapons of giving heavy armor, but neither are in the Avenger style. If we switched attacks to Dex. however it might've worked but then the class would be based on all 3 of the strong saves, Dex. Con. and Wis.


Oath of Enmity is OP. It's free advantage against a target, usable AT-WILL. Compare that to the Vengeance Paladin's Channel Divinity, which is much the same... But uses CD as a resource.

Advantage is incredibly overated, providing only a +3 on average, I've ran the numbers and it comes out .5 above a GWF fighter (Math: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wd6uIpZXgixT282nuz79aCoyZbbYfcqvmM_odal9nI8/edit?usp=drive_web)

The arguement could be made that an avenger could pick up a level in fighter to get GWF and become OP, but that only puts them 1.24 above a fighter of the same level who has more defence and nova potential. This arguement could also be applied to a barb. or blade-lock who dip into fighter.


You should have normal casting, not spell points. That's an unfair advantage over other casters.

Agreed, but I'm loathe to use regular half-casting. Maybe have it so they only recover half of their prayer points on a long rest?


Blade of Zeal... Seems okay? It's got a 19/400 chance of proccing, which is about 1/20 (just under) so I don't think that's overpowered or anything.

Thanks, in my limited playtesting it's one of the funnest abilities, criting on double 2's is amazing.


Providence seems too strong. It's more powerful than the Paladin equivalent-Improved Divine Smite-since it's both a higher number (+5 damage, rather than +1d8 [4.5] damage) and it works on a miss. I do suppose you're not likely to have 20 in Wisdom at level 11, though, but since it still procs on a miss it's at least as powerful at the level you get it, and becomes more powerful with time.

At this point it's just a placeholder untill I come up with something. Darn, at first it sounded like a good idea.


Stricken From The Records is either OP as hell or absolutely useless, and either way, it doesn't seem to fit the class. I'd require someone to make a Charisma saving throw against your Spell DC to have any divinations work on you.

It does fit the secretive nature of the avengers. I think it leans to the "situational" side of balance but I agree that a Cha. save is fair.



Ghost of Vengeance is pretty powerful... But it's also a level 14 feature. I'd want it playtested, but it doesn't seem too bad.

In the limited playtesting I've done it makes the avenger very "slippery" but it hasn't shown any giant problems, yet.


Given Grace would be OP as hell one level earlier-3 level dip into Berserker for a free third attack. But, since it just so happens to be at level 18, it's fine. Powerful, but level 18 features should be.

Thanks, I just imagine an avenger sprinting across a desert, never stopping, never slowing as he pursues his target.


Guise of Malice should be limited. Maybe Wisdom Mod times per short rest?

It eats into your action economy and allows for a save each turn, I don't think it should be limited.

It's supposed to give the avenger a little while alone with his target. But I'd lime to see some playtesting first, before making a decision.


Lay Bare is too much. I'm not sure how to nerf it properly, though.

Remove advantage on insight so it's only two skills?


Overall, it seems reasonably good... EXCEPT FOR THE CORE FEATURE, OATH OF ENMITY!

ADVANTAGE WAS THE AVENGER'S IN THE FIRST PLACE, 5E STOLE IT FROM HIM AND HE'S ANGRY.

(But seriously this is some great feedback, thanks. Also do all the names and descriptions sound alright? Any too cliché or bland?)

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-08-13, 11:29 PM
Guise of Malice should be limited. Maybe Wisdom Mod times per short rest?


Did a speck of playtesting, I agree, I'll change it to Wis mod. per short rest.

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-08-15, 04:12 PM
Providence seems too strong. It's more powerful than the Paladin equivalent-Improved Divine Smite-since it's both a higher number (+5 damage, rather than +1d8 [4.5] damage) and it works on a miss. I do suppose you're not likely to have 20 in Wisdom at level 11, though, but since it still procs on a miss it's at least as powerful at the level you get it, and becomes more powerful with time.

I removed providence and put in "Fervor" starts at around 3 damage and goes up to about 5. Ties in really well with Blade of zeal, a double roll of 15 or so would be devastating. Whatcha think?

JNAProductions
2016-08-15, 04:15 PM
Let's assume you hit on a 9. That's pretty reasonable, it assumes the enemy has an AC of 19... Which is actually pretty high. You might be hitting even better.

You have a 60% chance of hitting. You have a 36% chance of hitting with both. .36*15=just over 5.

This is actually worse-it starts off stronger than Improved Divine Smite and just gets worse.

Also, notice why constant advantage is an issue. You'll have, for the most part, AT LEAST a 60% chance of hitting. That means you have a 40% chance of missing-but with advantage, you only have a 16% chance. That's a 40% increase in accuracy-equivalent to increasing your hit bonus by 5 points. 5. Archery is sometimes considered OP at +2.

Edit: For another comparison, look at True Strike. It's generally considered crappy, but moving it to a bonus action is considered OP, and that applies to ONE attack.

For yet another comparison, look at the Oath of Vengeance ability. It's basically the same-but once per short rest.

Your Oath of Enmity is really OP.

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-08-15, 04:51 PM
Let's assume you hit on a 9. That's pretty reasonable, it assumes the enemy has an AC of 19... Which is actually pretty high. You might be hitting even better.

You have a 60% chance of hitting. You have a 36% chance of hitting with both. .36*15=just over 5.

This is actually worse-it starts off stronger than Improved Divine Smite and just gets worse.
It's an 11th level ability, wouldn't it start at .36×11 or just under 4?



Also, notice why constant advantage is an issue. You'll have, for the most part, AT LEAST a 60% chance of hitting. That means you have a 40% chance of missing-but with advantage, you only have a 16% chance. That's a 40% increase in accuracy-equivalent to increasing your hit bonus by 5 points. 5. Archery is sometimes considered OP at +2.

At max advantage is +5 and only on a perfect 50/50 to hit. On average it's not much higher than a fighter. Even if you only take midrange values, it's only one point more.

If the damage lines up, why not? Not missing is the avenger's thing.

But I conceed, I'll limit it. But how should we do it? Wis times a short rest, a set number of times a day, but have it transfer like hunter's mark, or some third option?

JNAProductions
2016-08-15, 04:55 PM
It's an 11th level ability, wouldn't it start at .36×11 or just under 4?



At max advantage is +5 and only on a perfect 50/50 to hit. On average it's not much higher than a fighter. Even if you only take midrange values, it's only one point more.

If the damage lines up, why not? Not missing is the avenger's thing.

But I conceed, I'll limit it. But how should we do it? Wis times a short rest, a set number of times a day, but have it transfer like hunter's mark, or some third option?

Ah. I thought it was a level 15 ability. Woops!

The issue is, your hit chance is only liable to go up, as is your level, so at level 20, assuming same hit chances (not likely, but it makes math easy) you're looking at .36*20 7.2 extra damage on average! That's almost as much as a MAX Improved Divine Smite! It scales too powerfully.

Vengeance Paladin has basically the same ability as a Channel Divinity option. Make it once per short rest, and that should be good.

Rerem115
2016-08-15, 05:11 PM
Granted, what I'm suggesting would be a drastic overhaul, but if you really wanted to alleviate MAD, why not just give it Fighter ASIs? You'd have to pare down a few abilities, but you could make the remaining ones a bit stronger.

Rerem115
2016-08-15, 05:38 PM
Here's a quick write-up of what this class would look like with fighter ASIs and regular half-casting. With this, I'm fairly confident you don't need Wis as your hp modifier.

http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/edit/BygfVVT19

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-08-15, 05:51 PM
Ah. I thought it was a level 15 ability. Woops!

The issue is, your hit chance is only liable to go up, as is your level, so at level 20, assuming same hit chances (not likely, but it makes math easy) you're looking at .36*20 7.2 extra damage on average! That's almost as much as a MAX Improved Divine Smite! It scales too powerfully.

Yeah, I see...

Guess it's back to the 4e manuals... again...

How about this: Whenever you reduce a hostile creature to 0 hitpoints you gain stacking +1 bonus to hit and AC to a maximum of +3. This bonus disapeers one minute after the last bonus is gained.


Vengeance Paladin has basically the same ability as a Channel Divinity option. Make it once per short rest, and that should be good.

True, but the paladin get's it on top of it's already amazing framework, while the avengers framework is based on the Oath of Enmity, once a rest is too hard for a class that relies on it as it's source of damage. A few times a rest probably, but once a rest is too harsh.

Rerem115
2016-08-15, 05:55 PM
For the Oath of Enmity issue, why not use rage progression?

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-08-15, 06:17 PM
Here's a quick write-up of what this class would look like with fighter ASIs and regular half-casting. With this, I'm fairly confident you don't need Wis as your hp modifier.

http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/edit/BygfVVT19

This looks great, but extra ASIs are usually given to more flexible classes such as the fighter and rogue. Classes with a more refined flavor only get 5.

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-08-15, 06:21 PM
For the Oath of Enmity issue, why not use rage progression?

Because rage doesn't end when you target dies. But I do have an idea, make it so the oath can be transfered as a bonus action (like hunter's mark) once a creature dies, and them give it rage number of uses. That sound alright?

Rerem115
2016-08-15, 06:42 PM
That seems fine. I adjusted the table from earlier to include Oath of Enmity uses. Here's my take on balancing this class.
http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/rkGNNak9

Rerem115
2016-08-15, 06:48 PM
While I agree with what you say about ASIs, I still feel increasing the number of ASIs would be a more elegant solution than your current one, which is tie your hp, casting, and AC to a single strong stat. As it is, every time you buff Wis, it's actually worth 2-3 times as much as it would be worth for any other class, since you get so much out of increasing your Wisdom.

7 is probably is too many, but I feel one extra ASI helps out with balancing this class.

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-08-15, 08:55 PM
While I agree with what you say about ASIs, I still feel increasing the number of ASIs would be a more elegant solution than your current one, which is tie your hp, casting, and AC to a single strong stat. As it is, every time you buff Wis, it's actually worth 2-3 times as much as it would be worth for any other class, since you get so much out of increasing your Wisdom.

7 is probably is too many, but I feel one extra ASI helps out with balancing this class.

While the extra ASI's would alleviate the problem, they wouldn't fix it, even seven ASI's isn't enough to max out 4 stats, and having 4 stats "sorta" high would make for a very weird character.

The problem is, without angelic fortitude, the avenger is based off of 4 stats. the other two half caster can get away with 3 by either 1. Having heavy armor (paladin) or 2. Using dex as their attack stat (Ranger)

What we need to do is detach their armor from wis. Either making it 10+Prof.+Dex or some such derivative.

Rerem115
2016-08-15, 09:15 PM
If you want to use proficiency in AC calculation, it would have to be something like 9 + Proficiency + Dexterity modifier; if you have it with base 10, you could get your AC up to 21.

It would be a little low in the beginning, but would stabilize at around 17 or 18.

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-08-15, 10:53 PM
If you want to use proficiency in AC calculation, it would have to be something like 9 + Proficiency + Dexterity modifier; if you have it with base 10, you could get your AC up to 21.

It would be a little low in the beginning, but would stabilize at around 17 or 18.

Okay I've modified oath of enmity and armor of faith, how do they look now?

Rerem115
2016-08-15, 11:54 PM
You might want to change the duration of Oath of Enmity to 1 minute, as per the Vengeance Paladin. With a duration of 1 hour, you can sit on that mark for a pretty long time, theoretically only needing one use for a couple of fights. Alternatively, you can have 1 hour duration, but you must transfer the mark immediately after the creature hits 0 hit points.

With the change to Armor of Faith, hit point modifier should be Constitution.

If adding proficiency to AC is too weird, another option for Armor of Faith is one I stated earlier; 13 + Dex, like the Sorcerer. It wouldn't get as high late game, but would give decent survivability earlier.

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-08-16, 12:27 AM
You might want to change the duration of Oath of Enmity to 1 minute, as per the Vengeance Paladin. With a duration of 1 hour, you can sit on that mark for a pretty long time, theoretically only needing one use for a couple of fights. Alternatively, you can have 1 hour duration, but you must transfer the mark immediately after the creature hits 0 hit points.

I think I'll drop it to 10 minutes, shouldn't transfer between fights that easy now. Still too much?


With the change to Armor of Faith, hit point modifier should be Constitution.

Switching Armor of Faith to Prof. was to take some pressure off of Wisdom, the class still can't work without Wis. based health.


If adding proficiency to AC is too weird, another option for Armor of Faith is one I stated earlier; 13 + Dex, like the Sorcerer. It wouldn't get as high late game, but would give decent survivability earlier.

I don't like adding Prof. to AC but it's the best solution so far.

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-08-16, 08:38 PM
Well this is quite the conundrum:

The avenger (without "Angelic Fortitude") needs Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, and Wisdom to function correctly. Even with 7 ASI's it's not possible to build a solid class off of 4 stats, one has to go.

Strength: To remove strength we would need to delegate melee attacks to either Dex. or Wis. (Con. for attacks doesn't really make sense.) Either way, this opens up a lot of multiclass abuse options with either the rogue or cleric/druid.

Dexterity: For a class that's thematically agile it would be hard to remove Dex. from the class. Not to mention the problems it would cause with armor and saves.

Constitution: My preferred solution is to make it so that the class gains life off of Wis. (No other ability makes thematic sense) this keeps the life high, but not the saves.

Wisdom: I see no way that Wisdom. could be removed from the avenger class.

I can see only two options, base health off of health, or make attacks based off of another stat (this would require a lot of careful wording to protect it from multiclassing problems)

Rerem115
2016-08-16, 09:12 PM
I can't believe I didn't see this already. Give them the draconic sorcerer "+1 hp per level" thing instead of using Wis as your hp modifier. You'll wind up with about the same amount either way, but you can build tankier if decide to pump points into Con. If you did this, I think you could go back to the old Wis + Dex unarmored defense.

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-08-17, 12:25 AM
I can't believe I didn't see this already. Give them the draconic sorcerer "+1 hp per level" thing instead of using Wis as your hp modifier. You'll wind up with about the same amount either way, but you can build tankier if decide to pump points into Con. If you did this, I think you could go back to the old Wis + Dex unarmored defense.

I thought about this for awhile and after I couldn't come to a decision, I apologize in advance, I made another chart:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/12x1viNFmtcCBfLp7fQKfcDQKdtfzZGgiH9z1YDhVi3A/pub

This one is quite... "comprehensive".

In it I compared the effects of "Angelic Fortitude" (Wis-Avenger). Against the effects of the "Draconic Health" (Con-Avenger). Each of them also used the Dex/Wis defense Instead instead of the Prof. one.

The results were quite decisive. The Con-Avenger severely under-performs the fighter, coupled with the avenger's lack of defensive abilities, this is just suicidal. Even with 2 more ABI's it still under-performs. A class based on 4 stats just can't work.

Meanwhile, the Wis-Avenger that used the Dex/Wis armor and Wis. for health performed on-par with the fighter. Equal health, slightly less AC.

With this, I no longer think the Avenger needs less things based on Wis. even with 3 things based on Wis. it doesn't overpower another class. If someone where to say, dump strength and go straight for Wis, they would have higher AC and health, sure, but they would lack offensively as almost all of the Avenger's spells are tied to melee combat. Most of his spells don't even require a save or spell attack (Only 10/42 of his base spells require a save/spell attack) so pumping Wis. wouldn't increase his spell effectiveness much.

I'm going to go over this again tomorrow but for now I've reverted "Armor of Faith" to 10+Dex+Wis and left in "Angelic Fortitude"

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-08-18, 02:24 PM
Before I continue with more features, have we ruled out the problem with the avenger's health issue, or is it still wonky? I left it alone for now but I'm not entirely sure if it's okay as is.

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-08-18, 02:28 PM
I can't believe I didn't see this already. Give them the draconic sorcerer "+1 hp per level" thing instead of using Wis as your hp modifier. You'll wind up with about the same amount either way, but you can build tankier if decide to pump points into Con. If you did this, I think you could go back to the old Wis + Dex unarmored defense.

Sorry about my last post (the one with the math) I realized that I might have been rude and just pushed off your opinions. But right now I'm just stumped on what to do about this health problem.

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-08-23, 08:55 PM
The first full draft of the avenger is now complete. How do the features "Penance" and "Damnation" look?

Rerem115
2016-08-23, 09:52 PM
This is probably just me being picky, but it feels odd to have some levels gain multiple abilities when you have levels that are empty save for gaining a spell. If it were me, I'd spread some of the features around, so every level feels more meaningful; off the top of my head, 7 would be Hallowed Constitution, 9 would be Protected by Wrath, 13 would be Evasion, and 17 would be Ghost of Vengeance. This would give you a new feature at every level, and you would get Evasion at about the same time as the Ranger (the other d10 class that gets Evasion).

The capstone feels really flavorful, but it also feels more than a little on the strong side. At 20th level, you get unlimited uses of your Oath, so you essentially deal maximized weapon damage every round. That's on average an additional ~10 damage a round, scaling up to ~20 using just your class features (Retribution reaction, Haste). However, as written, it also buffs your smites. You gave the Avenger maximized smites, which in tandem with your spell point casting, means that you can deal 10 maximized 5th level smites per long rest, more or less at will. If it was just maximized weapon damage, it might be balanced (it would still be on the strong side; Barbarian capstone only gives about ~12-16 extra damage a round using only class features(Frenzy Barbarian reaction, dual wield)), but since you can maximize your smites (which you get 10 of, because of spell points), I gotta suggest you change it.

I'd use a standard spell system, and have the capstone read "Whenever you hit an enemy under you Oath of Enmity with a melee attack, you may choose to maximize your weapon damage. For example, if you were wielding a longsword, you could choose to have your attack deal 8 damage, rather than 1d8. "

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-08-23, 10:14 PM
This is probably just me being picky, but it feels odd to have some levels gain multiple abilities when you have levels that are empty save for gaining a spell. If it were me, I'd spread some of the features around, so every level feels more meaningful; off the top of my head, 7 would be Hallowed Constitution, 9 would be Protected by Wrath, 13 would be Evasion, and 17 would be Ghost of Vengeance. This would give you a new feature at every level, and you would get Evasion at about the same time as the Ranger (the other d10 class that gets Evasion).

It is weird, especially when compared to non-casters. But is is traditional, both the ranger and paladin both have 9, 13, and 17 as dead levels to compensate for the new level of spell they get.


The capstone feels really flavorful, but it also feels more than a little on the strong side. At 20th level, you get unlimited uses of your Oath, so you essentially deal maximized weapon damage every round. That's on average an additional ~10 damage a round, scaling up to ~20 using just your class features (Retribution reaction, Haste). However, as written, it also buffs your smites. You gave the Avenger maximized smites, which in tandem with your spell point casting, means that you can deal 10 maximized 5th level smites per long rest, more or less at will. If it was just maximized weapon damage, it might be balanced (it would still be on the strong side; Barbarian capstone only gives about ~12-16 extra damage a round using only class features(Frenzy Barbarian reaction, dual wield)), but since you can maximize your smites (which you get 10 of, because of spell points), I gotta suggest you change it.

Agreed, the intention was to just maximize the weapon damage, but I can see the wording problem. Changed to only maximize weapon damage.


I'd use a standard spell system, and have the capstone read "Whenever you hit an enemy under you Oath of Enmity with a melee attack, you may choose to maximize your weapon damage. For example, if you were wielding a longsword, you could choose to have your attack deal 8 damage, rather than 1d8. "

I'm loathe to use traditional half-casting (discussion for another time) and I like the flexibility a spell-point variant adds to the class. Though if you think the flexibility is too much of a power-gain the number of points could be scaled back or some other handicap could be applied.

Are there any other concerns about the classes abilities or features?

Rerem115
2016-08-23, 10:35 PM
My big issue with using a spell point system is that gives the option to amp your nova up far beyond that of other classes. With 64 spell points, you can cast 9 5th level spells per long rest (I should have looked more closely earlier; I thought it was 10). That's 7 more 5th level spells than a Paladin. The end result is that you can have a DPR comparable to a Paladin at maximum nova, and then sustain that DPR for up to 4.5 times as long (this is assuming both are landing 2 attacks a round). The flexibility of a spell point system already makes it preferable to the 5e system; but this isn't just increased flexibility, this is just straight up stronger, since it gives you more high level spells.

This is all uncharted waters for me, and I'm lost as to how to make the costs fair. Since I have no idea how to balance a point based casting system, my gut reaction is to go with what I know works, eg. the standard system.

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-08-23, 10:55 PM
My big issue with using a spell point system is that gives the option to amp your nova up far beyond that of other classes. With 64 spell points, you can cast 9 5th level spells per long rest (I should have looked more closely earlier; I thought it was 10). That's 7 more 5th level spells than a Paladin. The end result is that you can have a DPR comparable to a Paladin at maximum nova, and then sustain that DPR for up to 4 times as long. The flexibility of a spell point system already makes it preferable to the 5e system; but this isn't just increased flexibility, this is just straight up stronger, since it gives you more high level spells.

True, but that's assuming you just cast smite spells and do nothing else with your spellcasting. Not justifying it, just saying.


This is all uncharted waters for me, and I'm lost as to how to make the costs fair. Since I have no idea how to balance a point based casting system, my gut reaction is to go with what I know works, eg. the standard system.

I wouldn't know how to balance it out either, the version I'm working with was the one suggested on page 288 of the DMG as a casting alternative. Mathematically it provides the same spell casting potential slot-for-slot, it can just be abused more than regular casting.

How about making it so you only recover half of your spell-points per long rest?

Rerem115
2016-08-23, 11:18 PM
That would gimp it too much. Hmmm......

Y'know, you could just invoke rule 0; give it standard casting, but add a blurb that says it reaches its full potential when you use the spell point system.

Rerem115
2016-08-23, 11:37 PM
Alternatively, if you really, absolutely cannot give up the point based system, you could add a qualifier that states "You cannot cast more than 2 5th level spells per long rest using these points"; that would keep most of the flexibility, but curb the potential abuse of your top-tier spells.

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-08-24, 10:17 AM
Alternatively, if you really, absolutely cannot give up the point based system, you could add a qualifier that states "You cannot cast more than 2 5th level spells per long rest using these points"; that would keep most of the flexibility, but curb the potential abuse of your top-tier spells.

I think I might just use normal half-casting, and allow my players to use spell-points

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-08-24, 09:00 PM
Alternatively, if you really, absolutely cannot give up the point based system, you could add a qualifier that states "You cannot cast more than 2 5th level spells per long rest using these points"; that would keep most of the flexibility, but curb the potential abuse of your top-tier spells.

Wait, I've an idea. What if you recovered a number of spell points equal to your level on a long rest and a number equal to half your level on a short rest?

JNAProductions
2016-08-24, 09:01 PM
Wait, I've an idea. What if you recovered a number of spell points equal to your level on a long rest and a number equal to half your level on a short rest?

You'd be even more OP than before, since you now recover on a short rest more than any other half-caster does?

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-08-24, 09:26 PM
You'd be even more OP than before, since you now recover on a short rest more than any other half-caster does?

But only a slot or two worth. At max level you would recover 2 3rd level spells a short rest, and only a third of your maximum prayer points a long rest.

Still seems too nerfed though. Any other ideas?

Or should I start switching out the spellcasting now?

Rerem115
2016-08-24, 09:39 PM
No other half caster recovers spells on a short rest.

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-08-24, 09:43 PM
No other half caster recovers spells on a short rest.

No other half-caster only gets some of their spells back on a long rest.

But I digress, I'll start changing the spellcasting to the normal version (sigh...)

Now onto the next topic, should the HD remain at a d10, or drop to a d8 to compensate for wis based health?