Too Many Players In Combat

[Death_Lord12]

So there is usually 10-12 players in my group, and this is problematic for combat. 1. It takes forever to do combat, and 2. Unless I put them up against a bunch of enemies the enemies will just get wrecked with so many turns for players and not as much for enemies. I only have 1 BBEG and even though he has an army I've been told he will still get wrecked.

Anyone got suggestions at both helping the enemies not die in 1 turn and also speeding up combat?

Thanks in advance.

[TheIronGolem]

At the risk of unnecessary flippancy: Don't try to run a game with 10+ people. I wouldn't try to play Toon with that many, let alone a crunch-heavy system like D&D/PF. Even out of combat, nobody's going to get enough of your attention to really play. Or worse, a few will, and the rest will be even worse off.

If you really want/need all of those players, try splitting the game up into two groups. Give them some way of communicating or occasionally meeting in-character so they can coordinate plans.

[Telonius]

Unfortunately I think TIG has hit the nail on the head - the group is just too big, and combat in D&D (especially at the higher levels) is just plain slow.

With a group that big you're looking at 24 enemies minimum to make sure they don't just concentrate fire and wreck you. If you absolutely have to have that many players and enemies, I'd suggest trying to recruit an assistant DM to help you run all of that. Some groups I've been in have found it helpful (on the players' end) to have note cards for any buffs that are up, to make calculating bonuses faster. Pre-rolling attacks for your bad guys can help; time limits on players for deciding what to do can help as well.

[dascarletm]

I've always wondered what it would be like to have such a large pool of players. I've thought how cool would it be to run simultaneous campaigns in the same world with each groups actions affecting the story of another group. You have the chance to live out my dream! Do it, and tell me how it goes! :smallwink:

[Zsaber0]

When ever I have to run a game with a large number of people I always try and make sure the players know what they want to do on their turn. I make it clear that there can't be much hemming and hawing on their turn so the game doesn't slow down. But that might be different with your players than mine.

As for them killing the enemies to easily due to action economy. I've taken to giving the enemies another turn in the initiative.

[Sian]

An option would be to get a Co-Pilot DM who helps it running smoothly, so you don't have to juggle everything alone.

Another would be to homebrew out Initiative and make it so All enemies take their turn simultaneously, and all Players take their turn simultaneously. In which case a few players can run more-or-less at the same time.

[Troacctid]

Split the game into two parties of 5–6 or three parties of 3–4. A 10–12 player game is unreasonable.

[Death_Lord12]

Pre-rolling attacks for your bad guys can help; time limits on players for deciding what to do can help as well.
I have a dice app on my phone which helps with me making rolls and most of the players are somewhat new enough to the game to just smack the enemy and not have much strategy or thinking time, it's mostly the amount of them (and the fact that they like to sometimes walk away from the table but I'll just talk to them about that).


When ever I have to run a game with a large number of people I always try and make sure the players know what they want to do on their turn. I make it clear that there can't be much hemming and hawing on their turn so the game doesn't slow down. But that might be different with your players than mine.

As for them killing the enemies to easily due to action economy. I've taken to giving the enemies another turn in the initiative.
I'll try the extra turn for the enemies.


An option would be to get a Co-Pilot DM who helps it running smoothly, so you don't have to juggle everything alone.

Another would be to homebrew out Initiative and make it so All enemies take their turn simultaneously, and all Players take their turn simultaneously. In which case a few players can run more-or-less at the same time.
The way I currently do Initiative is everyone rolls, then starting at the highest we just go clockwise around the table, and when it gets to me is when all of the enemies take their turn.

As for the Co-Pilot DM, I considered it but I figured it is easier to write plot and create everything alone, and I mostly only write out stats for bosses or important people, otherwise I use just normal out of the book stats for monsters, so it is pretty easy to deal with monsters stats and rolls.

I have talked to the group about splitting it up into 2 separate groups, and it seems like it would be best to keep the large group. For one, we had 1 session where only 6 people showed up and it seemed a lot less fun to people. Also we currently only have 1 place that I know we can consistently play at, and it's hard enough to do that. I've tried talking to players to see if they seriously want to play or were just there to mess around and chill, and they all want to play, so kicking some out isn't really an option either.

I'm not really sure if there is anything I can do, but if anyone has any other ideas it'll be appreciated.

[CharonsHelper]

I'm going to jump on the bandwagon and say that 10-12 is too big for one group.

It might be fun to keep the two groups in the same campaign, shifting players from table to table as mission objectives change.

Example: A stronghold needs to be attacked, but it's too tough a nut to crack through brute force. Have the rogue/ranger types sneak in to cause a ruckus inside the castle so that the rest of the crew has the chance to come in the brute force method without being mobbed. etc.

Or for a noncombat example: On the king's birthday, half the group hob-knobs with the nobility in the palace to try to get info there, while the more disreputable among them (rogues/barbarians/druids/sorcerers etc.) stick to the docks to get info from the lower classes.

Those are just off the top of my head. I'm sure that you could come up with better excuses for the group to split up consistently.

[weckar]

Shotclocks and whiteboards is my suggestion. You get 45 seconds for your turn - no more (unless DM needs to interrupt). And any and all buffs/debuffs active need to be on the whiteboard. If you have a small pool of such buff-tokens tend to work well too.

[Quertus]

Back in 2e, I played with 10-12 players, each of which was allowed to run up to 3 characters simultaneously, and it was glorious.

I'm told that 3e combat is slower than 2e combat, but I can't understand how that can be, given that 3e has much more uniform mechanics.

So I say glue your players to their chairs, and revel in sharing a story with so many friends at once!

I don't see why you need to have 24 enemies at a time to make that work, or why you would want to break the rules to allow enemies to go multiple times, however.

[Sian]

As for the Co-Pilot DM, I considered it but I figured it is easier to write plot and create everything alone, and I mostly only write out stats for bosses or important people, otherwise I use just normal out of the book stats for monsters, so it is pretty easy to deal with monsters stats and rolls.

Still, when a group reach a certain size (exact size depend on the ability of the DM, both in system mastery and in how many balls he can juggle, and how disciplined the group players are ... often the threshold ranges somewhere between 4 to 8 players), Its preferred that you have one DM that handles plot and all creative elements, and a Co-DM that handle the moving parts (running monsters, adjudicating basic rules question and optionally keeping up to date on the PC builds making sure that they're competent, if in a 'newbie heavy' group), ideally this is a trusted player that has the best system mastery, optionally running a low-maintenance PC on the side, who tends to fade into the scenery in combat, either by being non-combative buffer or a heal-bot.

[vasilidor]

I have been a player in such sized groups. Couldn't keep track of anything in or out of combat when it was not my turn, and not due to lack of trying. Did not help that I think one player was doing the schemes within schemes bit, and a couple I think had more than one character that they would switch between. I had a fighter, I hit things and I was good at it. If your players are as numerous as you say, they may also be having difficulties of there own. can not imagine trying to DM for that many.

[Someguy231]

Stat everything to KILL, not challenge, KILL!!! the characters. If someone dies, oh well.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Your enemies die quickly because your players get to go in bunches, and conversely, the players should die quickly, because the monsters go in bunches, too. You should really just alternate a monster turn (which is quick) with a player turn (which is... less quick, probably).


As for the BBEG, you should definitely use some high-cheese solution to become either immune or highly resistant to all damage, then sprinkle some artifacts and 'special team techniques' across the party members. Something like a permanent prismatic sphere that has to be dispelled every turn, or something (make sure it's a free action drop/free action 1/turn raise, so the BBEG can disable it on their turn to cast through it).

[Gray Mage]

Well, if you want all players to interact together as it seems more fun for your group, you could run two groups, but at the same time. I mean, get a CODM, and on downtime/social interactions everyone is together, but when quest time comes the group needs to split up to get simultaneous objectives and each DM follows one group. That way during combat (which is the issue) the group is divided, but they can still interact OOC (within reason) and IC during less mechanically demanding times. Of course, it'd be ideal that the whole group is on board.

[Calthropstu]

Once the game gets past 7 people (6 players + GM) it becomes terrible.

6 allows for a good solid party.

7 means automatic redundancy.

[Elkad]

I'm happy with up to 8 characters. But I'll pressure the slower players to stick with BSF/blaster type toons. Players with pets/cohorts had really better be on the ball.

Monsters never go on the same initiative. I may group them in pairs or trios, but they need to be spread out somewhat.
Pre-made sheets with monster hitpoints. Colored poker chips to go under minis for various buffs/debuffs (in 2 sizes).
I have a horde of skeleton minis with numbers on the bases that get used for almost everything, as the numbers make them easy to track. If it's a bunch of large creatures, just put large poker chips under them so they take the right amount of space on the board.

I've played games with 12-16 players, at tournaments. They typically had a GM and 2 assistant DMs that played the monsters. The GM didn't make any combat decisions at all, just refereed the whole thing.

[inuyasha]

Hey Death_Lord! I'm in the same boat as you, I run (and play with) a group of 10 people (I DM one group of 10-12 people, and play with a completely separate group of 10 people), so I'm gonna let you know some things that help me out :smallwink:


Play in a controlled space. As easy as it can be to play at your Friendly Local Gaming Store, it can also get loud and harder to hear your group around a table large enough to fit them
Do group initiative. While this may be annoying to some players, and frowned upon by some online, I often just have the person in the party with the highest initiative roll, and if they roll higher than the quickest enemy, the entire party goes first. Should they roll lower, the enemies go first.
When going with the above option, also pick one player to go "first" amongst the party, and then go clockwise from there
Dice roller apps are your friend! Have a dice roller to quickly roll large amounts of dice, as well as some sort of notepad to keep track of all of the monsters, leave the players in control of keeping track of their own spells and stuff.
Snack breaks are important, somewhere in the middle of your session, have a break to unwind, gather and read your notes, and have people grab snacks/a meal/a slice of cake.
If you're running very large amounts of monsters, especially minions like goblins or skeletons or something, consider having one D20 roll account for the attacks of two minions. This one is done very infrequently, but can be useful.
With things like skill checks, initiative, and essentially any roll that isn't a damage roll, attack roll, or very situational roll (like concentration), roll them ahead of time for ease of play later.
When running large amounts (or even medium amounts) of monsters, one thing I often forget is that hit dice are just that. Dice! Sometimes rolling HP instead of going with the average for monsters can make the game much more fun and interesting, as not all monsters are going to be identical in their strength.
Going with the above suggestion, use that to your advantage when dealing with a player that rolls extremely low. If someone is having really unlucky rolls for damage, have their character strike at the monster that is apparently the weakest one sometimes. The feeling of them dropping an opponent after a slew of bad rolls is rewarding and fun. Note that this one doesn't always apply if your players are very specific about which one they're hitting, but if it's a general "I swing at one of the goblins in front", then this should work nicely.
And last but not least, the most recent one I've learned. Sometimes you just don't need a combat, try some puzzles or actual role play moments, I'm not saying that you don't do this, but many people often forget that D&D is a Role Playing Game. Make sure to award experience points for these too of course.
And just a bonus one, just because your group is freaking huge does not mean you need to split the party, kick anyone out, or abandon DMing from the stress. There are some of us who've kept 10-12 person games going for years (even longer when you consider that you can switch campaigns after getting bored of the current one)


Alright, so those are just suggestions, there's no need for you to adopt any of those and use them, but they've served me and my groups (the only two that I've played with, one three years old that I'm DMing, the other one decades older than myself that I'm a player in) quite well.

[weckar]

Thinking about this some more... I am trying to imagine what a group like this would even look like strolling through town. Like, that's the size of a small college class. I don't think even at its largest the Fellowship had 12 members in the same place at any one point...

[inuyasha]

Thinking about this some more... I am trying to imagine what a group like this would even look like strolling through town. Like, that's the size of a small college class. I don't think even at its largest the Fellowship had 12 members in the same place at any one point...

I think the party's allowed to split once they get to town. It's just dungeons that are the problem.

[D.M.Hentchel]

I'm going to jump in saying you can totally do this. In large groups I find the most important thing is to just trust your players not to meta-game in combat and give them numbers that speed up play (these orcs have an AC of 13; 40 damage make a DC 16 reflex for half)

To speed up play
-Give players all the info they need up front
-Estimate distances; if it looks like it works it does
-Enforce fast turns; if a player can't decide they delay (like it or not)
-Use index cards to track initiative
-Take characters out of a fight with abilities and spells.

To make encounters more fun
-Accept your BEBG isn't going to be the brunt of the encounter; just because the captain is dead doesn't mean that the soldiers stop fighting
-Pile on defenisve abilities to taste on encounters
-Lots and lots of encounters per day; a group that size has a lot of resources and if you let them nova a boss, that boss will die.
-Have the players fight each other, either through domination magic, or just give an incapacitated player a hostile NPC to run
-A group of 12 is closer to a division of an army than an adventuring group, the quest they go on should reflect this.
-A group this size has A LOT of capabilities, so feel free to start throwing near impossible non-combat challenges their way

But most importantly:
-Take breaks where YOU need it; running this sort of campaign is overwhelming and tiring, don't overdo it
-Take pride in your work; there is a reason that some many people are advising against this, because it is not easy to do, if people are enjoying it you're doing an amazing job

[CharonsHelper]

Thinking about this some more... I am trying to imagine what a group like this would even look like strolling through town. Like, that's the size of a small college class. I don't think even at its largest the Fellowship had 12 members in the same place at any one point...

I believe that they were 9 to start. 4 hobbits/2 men/elf/dwarf/Gandalf - though the 4 hobbits were basically noncombatants at that point.

[Death_Lord12]

Stat everything to KILL, not challenge, KILL!!! the characters. If someone dies, oh well.
My problem is, I'm not really sure where kill ends and TPK begins, unless you suggest I should go for TPK and see what happens? What I am doing with the BBEG right now is giving it a bunch of templates and even more artifacts, only problem with the artifacts is the limited body space.


Thinking about this some more... I am trying to imagine what a group like this would even look like strolling through town. Like, that's the size of a small college class. I don't think even at its largest the Fellowship had 12 members in the same place at any one point...
Well if you want to know, it looks like this:


Human Farmer
Human Rogue
Half-Elf Ranger
Hobgoblin Ranger/Rogue
Warforged Fighter
Grimlock Barbarian
Mind Flayer Shaper
Aasimar Paladin
Whisper Gnome Rogue
Tiefling Dread Necromancer
Vampire Half-Giant Barbarian
and my personal favorite
Manticore that acts like The Riddler, that randomly transforms into Gollum (homebrewed race)

[vasilidor]

My dad once played with a DM who would pick one character to die every session at random. he would not straight up kill them, but try to arrange their deaths. If they were clever they would find a way out, and yes there was a way out... but if they made it out of that scenario he just set up the next one.

[LTwerewolf]

We have that many people in our group and to make sure everyone actually has fun, we split them into two groups that are playing in the same campaign setting with the same overarcing story, but with different things they're doing.

[Scorponok]

I've run combats with 8 before. It can be done on the DM side of things. I'll explain this in the next paragraph. As the DM, I find it easier to throw multiple of a similar enemy at the players. For example, against 10 players, make 10 archers, 10 shield soldiers, 10 spearmen and maybe 5 spellcasters - then the single BBEG. You then run the groups with separate initiatives. The 10 archers all have attack bonuses of maybe +5 and they all go at once. You can use multiple d20s with multiple d6s or d8s for damage. Take 5 of the archers and say they shoot one player. Roll your 5 d20s with the damage dice. Easy to add attack bonuses when they are all similar. Take out the ones that are obvious misses and then total the damage to the one player. Do that for the other set of archers. Then on their initiatives, do the same thing for the spearmen, shield soldiers, and other enemy NPCs. For the spellcasters, use simple spells that require one save or guaranteed damage spells like Magic Missile. Spells like Confusion and spells like that which have random components really slow down the game. As a DM, make sure you know your spells well. Try to avoid spells that do ability score damage or level damage because those can take time for the player to find out whether he lost a +1 to attack or +2 or how many hit points, saves, etc. he lost.

The problem is, even if you have everything together as the DM, some players are going to want to plan the perfect strategies and spell use, and the situation can change quite rapidly from one round to the other with that many pieces on the field. You're always going to get a few players who hem and haw over what to do because one player or NPC moved and his X spell or attack isn't going to do what they wanted it to do. These players are the ones who will tie up the game. If they can't decide what to do in like, 10 seconds, I move them to the bottom of the round, but it still presents the same problem at the bottom of the round, but now you have 3 or 4 players continuing to hem and haw over their next move. You can be harsh and just say if you can't decide what to do in 10 seconds at this point, you lose your turn, but then the player might hate you for it. They have to just understand you don't want battles to take 3 hours.

[trikkydik]

I think the common theme is.

"Someone is going to have to step up and help you DM this campaign."

Nobody wants to do it. But that's what it takes.

[HurinTheCursed]

Sometimes compromises are needed. They don't want to split, then 1-2 trusted players should help you. Turns likely take ages so they both have time to play and help the DM.
Also, tell the players that you need to trust them and do no have the means to control every single bonus but be harsh if they do not play nicely.



I've run combats with 8 before. It can be done on the DM side of things. I'll explain this in the next paragraph. As the DM, I find it easier to throw multiple of a similar enemy at the players. For example, against 10 players, make 10 archers, 10 shield soldiers, 10 spearmen and maybe 5 spellcasters - then the single BBEG. You then run the groups with separate initiatives. The 10 archers all have attack bonuses of maybe +5 and they all go at once. You can use multiple d20s with multiple d6s or d8s for damage. Take 5 of the archers and say they shoot one player. Roll your 5 d20s with the damage dice. Easy to add attack bonuses when they are all similar. Take out the ones that are obvious misses and then total the damage to the one player. Do that for the other set of archers. Then on their initiatives, do the same thing for the spearmen, shield soldiers, and other enemy NPCs. For the spellcasters, use simple spells that require one save or guaranteed damage spells like Magic Missile. Spells like Confusion and spells like that which have random components really slow down the game. As a DM, make sure you know your spells well. Try to avoid spells that do ability score damage or level damage because those can take time for the player to find out whether he lost a +1 to attack or +2 or how many hit points, saves, etc. he lost.

The problem is, even if you have everything together as the DM, some players are going to want to plan the perfect strategies and spell use, and the situation can change quite rapidly from one round to the other with that many pieces on the field. You're always going to get a few players who hem and haw over what to do because one player or NPC moved and his X spell or attack isn't going to do what they wanted it to do. These players are the ones who will tie up the game. If they can't decide what to do in like, 10 seconds, I move them to the bottom of the round, but it still presents the same problem at the bottom of the round, but now you have 3 or 4 players continuing to hem and haw over their next move. You can be harsh and just say if you can't decide what to do in 10 seconds at this point, you lose your turn, but then the player might hate you for it. They have to just understand you don't want battles to take 3 hours.
LOL, I'd love battles to last only 3h in my group but my Dm wants to check everything...

- From experience all this works well to improve speed but it can still be longer than you want it.
- To ensure concentration and self-discipline, give them limited time to take the decisions. And they should not leave the table needlessly or use their phone.
- Also have assorted dice sets, roll 10 d20s with their assorted damage dice for a whole group of enemies.
- Do not allow extra companions, leadership, limit summons if that's too much hassle.
- Numerical tools help (dndtools is a lifesaver), paizo combat pad is nice for that as well (ask the players to buy you one and put one of them in charge).
- Ask them to keep track of where they bought their stuff, in which book & page inventory, spell and feats are described and if needed, have the description available without need for the book (cards description can help)
- Limit aparte with players, it's disruptive with such a big group. Otherwise, do it on a piece of paper / a private chat.
- Tokens may allow to keep track of per day uses if they have trouble with it. Otherwise, they could write the context of uses spent that day (it's quite easy to mix this stuff if you need weeks to complete a single day).
- If possible, players should tell you in advance if they foresee personnal quests or wish to do something outside the scope of the scenario to leave enough time to prepare and limit improvisation
- Everyone should prepare time-consuming tasks ahead, especially the DM.
- No rule discussion while you play, they wait til the end of the session if they have a disagreement
- Anything that specifically requires your attention (shopping, new levels...) should be done outside gaming time.

[Mutazoia]

If they can't decide what to do in like, 10 seconds, I move them to the bottom of the round, but it still presents the same problem at the bottom of the round, but now you have 3 or 4 players continuing to hem and haw over their next move. You can be harsh and just say if you can't decide what to do in 10 seconds at this point, you lose your turn, but then the player might hate you for it. They have to just understand you don't want battles to take 3 hours.

I find this works quite well when you establish early on that this is what is going to happen. So, Roll Initiative and start counting down. If a player still hasn't come up with an action by the time you get to the end, he/she forfeits their turn. If it happens more than once or twice (consecutively) in the same fight, their initiative is set to "1". After all, combat is supposed to be happening very quickly. Nobody has time to stop and make elaborate plans. They should/could be planning while the other players are taking their actions.

Though, to be fair, the first time around I give them more than 10 seconds...maybe like a minute or two. Once we get to the bottom of the Init. chain, they have 10-15 seconds, or forfeit the turn. Veteran players will have a lot of tricks up their sleeves already, so this doesn't happen very often. More so with new(er) players.