3.5 Homebrew Class - Dragon Heritor v5.1 - Testers/Opinions Appreciated

[srgtsilent]

Hey guys, this is my first post on the forums an I wanted to get ya'll's opinion on a class me and a buddy have been writing up for a campaign I'm running. The document is a tad long (21 pages) but has some charts, fluff, and other information that I cannot easily post here.

Dragon Heritor - Google Docs (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-h2W-lygwGzbXhyYVlodjhfZDQ/view)

Specifically, I'm interested if it seems to be balanced, over-loaded, under-tuned, etc. As far as playtests are concerned, my buddies have played a few and we have come to this version of the Dragon Heritor.

as for background info: this class was created with the idea of incorporating dragon bloodlines into everyday life, and as intended to be a class that the player would want to achieve 20th level in. While I now consier that a failure, and nigh impossible in 3.5, I believe I have made a good argument to want to reach 16th level at max.

Anyway, I will regularly respond to posts in this thread, so please give me all your honest opinions and feedback, I'd greatly appreciate it.

- srgtsilent

New Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?498797-3-5-Homebrew-Class-Dragon-Heritor-v5-4-Testers-Opinions-Appreciated)

[ComaVision]

OK, here are some notes:

-Requiring a dragon-descended race: The first level gives the Dragontouched feat, so any race with one level of Dragon Heritor is going to be dragon descended. Don't restrict the races.

-Cha to AC/Hit/Damage: I'm unaware of any dragons that have something like this. Dragons have natural armour, which is why Dragonfire Adepts and Dragon Shamen gain natural armour increases.

-No two handed fighting path: I'm not sure if 'Oversized' was supposed to be two handed weapons but Power Attack > Monkey Grip. There's also other fighting types not represented (mounted, ranged) but I'm assuming you envision the Dragon Heritor as a melee class.

-Two weapon fighting path: It's not good until level 11 when you can actually have your bonus damage reliably all the time. Also, why do you call it the martial path when all the paths are martial?

-You reference the Mettle feat from (ToB) but there isn't one?

My major gripe with the class is that it doesn't let me do anything I couldn't already build with pre-existing classes. There aren't any unique abilities. I'd rather play the Dragonfire Adept.

[srgtsilent]

OK, here are some notes:

-Requiring a dragon-descended race: The first level gives the Dragontouched feat, so any race with one level of Dragon Heritor is going to be dragon descended. Don't restrict the races.

-Cha to AC/Hit/Damage: I'm unaware of any dragons that have something like this. Dragons have natural armour, which is why Dragonfire Adepts and Dragon Shamen gain natural armour increases.

-No two handed fighting path: I'm not sure if 'Oversized' was supposed to be two handed weapons but Power Attack > Monkey Grip. There's also other fighting types not represented (mounted, ranged) but I'm assuming you envision the Dragon Heritor as a melee class.

-Two weapon fighting path: It's not good until level 11 when you can actually have your bonus damage reliably all the time. Also, why do you call it the martial path when all the paths are martial?

-You reference the Mettle feat from (ToB) but there isn't one?

My major gripe with the class is that it doesn't let me do anything I couldn't already build with pre-existing classes. There aren't any unique abilities. I'd rather play the Dragonfire Adept.

Thanks for reading all (or some) of the class. Now for responses.

A) I see your argument, it appears I have used circular reasoning. Originally, the intent was to allow only a creature that reliably had some form of "dragon heritage" to progress in this class, but it does appeared to have mellowed out into a general dragon embodiment class, melee Draconic Heritage class... I suppose nothing is wrong with a Dwarven Dragon Heritor, as "Dragon Decended" comes down to DM interpretation as is anyway. :p

B) The charisma bonuses were to add flavor and a distinctness to this class, you are correct no core 3.5 dragons grant such ability, but I felt it fleshed out the class better. Since a Dragon Heritor would already be getting +3 Natural (or deflection in rare cases) armor bonus as they progressed, and only have light armor proficiency, and do not scale well with dex, it made sense at the time. o you suggest it not exist? or be reworked?

C/D) You are correct, simple oversight on my part. It is a Two-Weapon Fighting Path. Yes I did intend for them to be strictly melee based, and yes the 'oversized' path is a Two-Handed path. I fully agree Power Attack > Monkey grip, especially, if they are going to get Powerful build later. It was a suggestion from my co-author. Since all Dragon Heritors get Power Attack eventually, but rules are in place to allow a different feat if they already acquired power attack, would you suggest it be a simple swap out of bonus feats? As for it not getting good, I agree, it seems to suffer the same flaws as the ranger's two weapon fighting, any suggestions? The original intent was 1: Feat + Proficiency; 6: Feat; 11: Special Ability; 16: Ultimate Ability

E) Again, woops. "At 6th level, a Dragon Heritor of the Two-Handed Style gains the Crusader's Mettle Class Ability (ToB) as a bonus feat."

F) Interesting. I figured bringing all of these different aspects together into one class (as they are scattered about many) would give this class something unique. Was I incorrect in that assumption? What special sauce do you think this class is missing to make it pop as something unique to play (Spells are off the table, they were a suggestion and I know any spell caster class trumps a melee class in use fullness and versatility, but this was an attempt to make at least an optimal dragon themed melee class)?

[ComaVision]

A) Yeah, especially with the wide variety of dragons in 3.5, there's some source of dragon-loving for any race.

B) Personally, I'd remove the Cha focus from the class. You could make Con mod = bonus to natural armour. Arguably, the Cha to hit and damage is unnecessary since all Dragon Heritors should be pumping Str.

C/D)Since Power Attack is a pretty standard level 1 feat for 2HF, I would just put it in instead of Monkey Grip. You mentioned that all DHs eventually get Power Attack but I don't see where?

Per the 2WF, general consensus is that you need a bonus damage source for it to be a viable alternative. You do provide that but not fully until level 11. Is there any reason you decided to put a daily limit on the Draconic Weapon? It's particularly penalizing for those making more (but weaker) attacks.

F) I suppose it's personal preference but I'm very used to multiclassing for the pieces of a build that I want, so no unique elements bothers me. Honestly, I can't think of a good suggestion. I was going to suggest being able to turn into a dragon x times per day but that's not unique either (Draconic Polymorph and Dragon Wildshape). Dragon Shamen have their auras (even if they do suck) and Dragonfire Adepts have their invocations.

Couple more comments:

1. I think you should make it so all DHs get wings and eventually flight. It's a major shortcoming of non-magical classes that they have no inherent ability to fly. On that note, I'd also boost up the skill points to 4+int (especially since int seems the most likely dump stat).

2. You should consider a more impressive capstone. Building up to the Half-Dragon template would be pretty cool but would obviously need to be edited so it didn't downgrade any of the DH's abilities.

[srgtsilent]

A) Yeah, especially with the wide variety of dragons in 3.5, there's some source of dragon-loving for any race.

B) Personally, I'd remove the Cha focus from the class. You could make Con mod = bonus to natural armour. Arguably, the Cha to hit and damage is unnecessary since all Dragon Heritors should be pumping Str.

C/D)Since Power Attack is a pretty standard level 1 feat for 2HF, I would just put it in instead of Monkey Grip. You mentioned that all DHs eventually get Power Attack but I don't see where?

Per the 2WF, general consensus is that you need a bonus damage source for it to be a viable alternative. You do provide that but not fully until level 11. Is there any reason you decided to put a daily limit on the Draconic Weapon? It's particularly penalizing for those making more (but weaker) attacks.

F) I suppose it's personal preference but I'm very used to multiclassing for the pieces of a build that I want, so no unique elements bothers me. Honestly, I can't think of a good suggestion. I was going to suggest being able to turn into a dragon x times per day but that's not unique either (Draconic Polymorph and Dragon Wildshape). Dragon Shamen have their auras (even if they do suck) and Dragonfire Adepts have their invocations.

Couple more comments:

1. I think you should make it so all DHs get wings and eventually flight. It's a major shortcoming of non-magical classes that they have no inherent ability to fly. On that note, I'd also boost up the skill points to 4+int (especially since int seems the most likely dump stat).

2. You should consider a more impressive capstone. Building up to the Half-Dragon template would be pretty cool but would obviously need to be edited so it didn't downgrade any of the DH's abilities.

A) Well you got agreement out of my co-author (I will not speak for him regularly as he may make an account to join this discussion), so its likely the racial restriction will be removed.

B) Is the main problem that they get a Cha bonus to 3 different stats? Battle Dancer gets Cha to AC, Monk Wis to AC, Swordsage Wis to AC, Swashbuckler Int to Attack rolls. I'm not a fan of removing it entirely.

C) If you read the google doc you will see it in the dragon bloodline charts. I removed the other pages since it looked like I was displaying a full class when I was not (how did you not question the dragon blood abilities?). Though tbh they get PA at 7th level (pure only) so its pretty late for them to not have it already. On a side note, I am the only one in my group to agree with you that PA is better than MG, "since I am a caster player I don't know how to build melee" is what they said.

D) Well, originally, this class was based off of the Dragon Samurai which has unlimited, but at the suggestion of my players it was dropped to a limited number of times per day because it could get out of hand, but it really is no different from a Flaming Enchant now that I think about it, so I could just spice up his 11th level Two-Weapon style ability. Only major problem with that philosophy is that flaming (or any other enchant) costs 8000g, something a player doesn't obtain until 5th, and this ability is 3rd level.

F) It both is and isn't unique. I think its just a personal dislike of sticking to one class. It has some unique elements, but they don't pop out like some others, and getting a bunch of different things from other classes all in one is unique. But no it does not have THAT unique thing.

G) 4+int isn't a bad idea, though int isn't a good stat for most melee and they only get a +2...then again that's what I'm trying to fix...most melee classes... As for flight, this class ISN'T about becoming a dragon in anyway, shape or form. Its about embodying the dragon's blood the lies within you, so i think giving them the dragonblood subtype is enough. They get a lot of bonus feats without being a fighter as is. A first level splurge on wings isn't a wasted feat in anyway, especially if it's a human feat.

H) Hmmm... A special ability (Ex/Sp/Su) (mixed) or an immunity to a chosen element at 20th level (Pure) plus an increase in breath weapon range isn't all that exciting... maybe I should add one more ability at 20th level, to make em pop. But unique or not, it would end up being a case of too little, too late for player's such as yourself, wouldn't it?

1) Oh and, this was forgotten (though i think implied) the Unarmed Style at 1st level gains the monks unarmed strike progression. Did you realize that? Any opinion on that, or is that perfectly fine.

[ComaVision]

B) It's not that I think it's OP. I just don't see how it fits. Personally, I think Battle Dancer and Monk should have Cha and Wis, respectively, to all three so they aren't so multi-ability dependent. In summation, I don't think it's fluff justified and being multi-ability dependent is a short-coming of non-magical classes. It would be better just requiring good Str/Con. (Also, it's weird that the Cha to damage is precision damage. No other Cha to damage that I'm aware of is precision damage.)

C) Ah, sorry I missed that. As you noted, it's very late for a 2HF to be picking up PA. I don't have any issues with the dragon blood abilities though, they're mostly pretty minor and thematic.

Per your group not knowing PA > MG, I'm pretty sure most people that know what they're doing wouldn't even use MG if it were a free feat. Lets suppose you use a large greatsword with MG that's an increase from 2d6 to 3d6 damage, 3.5 on average for a -2 to attack rolls. If you just use PA of 2, you get 4 damage for it with a medium greatsword. 2d6+4>3d6. I'm certain that if you made a post about it on the 3.5 forum it would unanimously favour PA.

D) I would argue that the Flaming enchant is quite overpriced. Compare to a rogue at 3rd level that can get 2d6 to all their attacks (providing they're able to qualify). It makes sense that the DH has less d6s because they don't have to be hidden/flanking but I certainly don't think it's too much.

As a point of comparison, the Soulknife class gets to add weapon enhancements for free starting at level 6 (with more diversity of choice) and they're widely considered a terrible class.

G) My bad on misinterpreting the class direction with the wings. I agree, it would be a smart move for any player to just get DW and IDW feats. My thought is that since it's such a no-brainer that everyone should grab them, maybe it should just be default. Your stance is perfectly reasonable though.

H) Sort of. The 20th level capstone isn't so much about balance or making the class come together as it is about style. Full disclosure, I've never played a level 20 character but it's just a lot cooler to be playing a Dread Necromancer and thinking "If we went to 20 I'd be a full Lich!" versus playing a Rogue and thinking "Huh, if we got to level 20 I wouldn't get anything." Hopefully that makes sense?

I) I didn't notice that but that seems perfectly reasonable. Typically unarmed damage builds depend on either size increases or bonus damage to function though, and seeing as DH doesn't have an inherent ability to increase in size, the unarmed path would benefit from a Draconic Weapon upgrade too.

Hope that helps!

[srgtsilent]

B) It's not that I think it's OP. I just don't see how it fits. Personally, I think Battle Dancer and Monk should have Cha and Wis, respectively, to all three so they aren't so multi-ability dependent. In summation, I don't think it's fluff justified and being multi-ability dependent is a short-coming of non-magical classes. It would be better just requiring good Str/Con. (Also, it's weird that the Cha to damage is precision damage. No other Cha to damage that I'm aware of is precision damage.)

C) Ah, sorry I missed that. As you noted, it's very late for a 2HF to be picking up PA. I don't have any issues with the dragon blood abilities though, they're mostly pretty minor and thematic.

Per your group not knowing PA > MG, I'm pretty sure most people that know what they're doing wouldn't even use MG if it were a free feat. Lets suppose you use a large greatsword with MG that's an increase from 2d6 to 3d6 damage, 3.5 on average for a -2 to attack rolls. If you just use PA of 2, you get 4 damage for it with a medium greatsword. 2d6+4>3d6. I'm certain that if you made a post about it on the 3.5 forum it would unanimously favour PA.

D) I would argue that the Flaming enchant is quite overpriced. Compare to a rogue at 3rd level that can get 2d6 to all their attacks (providing they're able to qualify). It makes sense that the DH has less d6s because they don't have to be hidden/flanking but I certainly don't think it's too much.

As a point of comparison, the Soulknife class gets to add weapon enhancements for free starting at level 6 (with more diversity of choice) and they're widely considered a terrible class.

G) My bad on misinterpreting the class direction with the wings. I agree, it would be a smart move for any player to just get DW and IDW feats. My thought is that since it's such a no-brainer that everyone should grab them, maybe it should just be default. Your stance is perfectly reasonable though.

H) Sort of. The 20th level capstone isn't so much about balance or making the class come together as it is about style. Full disclosure, I've never played a level 20 character but it's just a lot cooler to be playing a Dread Necromancer and thinking "If we went to 20 I'd be a full Lich!" versus playing a Rogue and thinking "Huh, if we got to level 20 I wouldn't get anything." Hopefully that makes sense?

I) I didn't notice that but that seems perfectly reasonable. Typically unarmed damage builds depend on either size increases or bonus damage to function though, and seeing as DH doesn't have an inherent ability to increase in size, the unarmed path would benefit from a Draconic Weapon upgrade too.

Hope that helps!

B) Precision was another suggestion. It isn't spelled out in any class but iv always assumed any non-S addition to damage is precision unless specifically spelled out otherwise... hmmm... Ill have to have a discussion about it and do more research on what truly is precision damage. As for being two ability dependent... that seems quite powerful, most classes are 3. Not going to talk about monk anymore :p... And finally, as for fluff justified you may have an argument.
Edit: Ok looking at swashbuckler and some others, I'm just going to append the line about it not affecting creatures immune to crits, as that was the intent.

D) Good argument. Thanks.

H) Ill definitely look into a capstone with that in mind, thanks.

Didn't mean to come off as a jerk at any point. Sorry if i did. I really do appreciate all of the help you've given me and am truly enjoying this discussion. Everything you have said has been incredibly helpful. I guess the only point of contention is the charisma, but its hard to make everyone happy, you know?

[ComaVision]

B) Precision was another suggestion. It isn't spelled out in any class but iv always assumed any non-S addition to damage is precision unless specifically spelled out otherwise... hmmm... Ill have to have a discussion about it and do more research on what truly is precision damage. As for being two ability dependent... that seems quite powerful, most classes are 3. Not going to talk about monk anymore :p... And finally, as for fluff justified you may have an argument.
Edit: Ok looking at swashbuckler and some others, I'm just going to append the line about it not affecting creatures immune to crits, as that was the intent.

The strongest classes are single ability dependent. That's part of the game mechanics that prevent melee from being a competitive choice.


Didn't mean to come off as a jerk at any point. Sorry if i did. I really do appreciate all of the help you've given me and am truly enjoying this discussion. Everything you have said has been incredibly helpful. I guess the only point of contention is the charisma, but its hard to make everyone happy, you know?

Not at all. Similarly, I hope I haven't come off as confrontational. An outside perspective can really help refine a clarity of vision, even if we don't agree on all points. Hopefully some others will chime in as well.

[srgtsilent]

The strongest classes are single ability dependent. That's part of the game mechanics that prevent melee from being a competitive choice.

Interesting. I assume by that you mean things like spellcasters (Wiz/Sor) that rely on one score to determine everything, and then have the usual interest in Con/Dex that most classes have?



Not at all. Similarly, I hope I haven't come off as confrontational. An outside perspective can really help refine a clarity of vision, even if we don't agree on all points. Hopefully some others will chime in as well.

I do hope we get more responses eventually. But hey, even if only you sees it, you can pass it on maybe, and then another can, and so on.

Also, soon (maybe Sunday) I'll post a new version of Dragon Heritor (with your suggestions taken into account) that you can take a look at. Ill also be starting a new thread linking these two together. Thanks for the help so far, and assuming your interested, see you then.

P.s. Came up with a really cool capstone ability (to my group at least).

[srgtsilent]

Finally got DH updated and posting another thread now, see the main post for the new thread, v5.4.