Rogue Build Advice

[OctoberRaven]

First time doing pathfinder, haven't done much playing a rogue either.

Rolled some really crazy stats (14/18/15/16/12/17 after racial mods), and the rest of my party is a ranger (with a bow), cleric (who uses melee), and wizard.

Plan on taking Minor Magic (Light) and Major Magic (Possibly Charm Person, but could also go for Disguise Self) as my first two rogue talents (for RP reasons). Trap sense will be sixth level because obviously. Feats chosen so far are skill-improving feats.

Weapons of choice are a light crossbow and shortsword.

What I'm wanting advice on...

-Should I focus on melee in future levels? If so, what feats should I take?
-For my first few levels, should I keep my distance with the crossbow, or merely open with the crossbow before moving in to flank with the cleric, and using five-foot steps to avoid AoO?
-Besides the three I'm already taking, what talents should I consider?
-Leadership, good idea?

[Extra Anchovies]

With that party you should definitely fight in melee unless the Wizard is planning to use summoning spells, in which case it's up to you. Having more than one body up front is necessary for surviving the early levels, and even when the Ranger gets their animal companion the Cleric would still appreciate a buddy. Generally sneak attack is easier to trigger in melee, because there's more ways to make enemies flat-footed up close and because you get to flank.

Is this CRB rogue or Unchained rogue? That'll affect the weapons that would be best for you, because Finesse Training.

In the early levels, combat strategy should be to stay at range as long as possible unless the enemy can outshoot you. That's generally a good strategy at all levels, but it's especially important early on because you're so squishy, and because enemies are less likely to be good at both ranged and melee.

Leadership shouldn't exist. If your DM wants you to have an NPC helper, they should be provided to the party with no build-resource cost, and if they don't want you to have an NPC helper, then you won't be allowed to take Leadership.

[Topaz]

I'm not sure how fit I am to give advice, since my first Pathfinder character started as a Rogue and ended up as an Arcane Trickster :smalltongue: but I'd agree that with that party you need to be a melee combatant; the Weapon Finesse/Two Weapon Fighting combo is good (the more chances for Sneak Attack damage the better). With the character's INT it might be better to spend resources on maxing Use Magic Device for the versatility instead of getting a limited selection of Magic (my character ended up dipping Wizard and it just kind of snowballed from there).

[Firest Kathon]

If you want to do melee, ask if you can play an Unchained Rogue (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/unchained-classes/rogue-unchained) (if you are not playing one already). They get Weapon Finesse and later Dex to damage for free, plus you get skill unlocks.

[OctoberRaven]

I am going by base rogue... I can see how the DM feels about retconning my class to the Unchained variant but since we started play I'd be hesitant to allow it if I were running... though the first level seems to be mostly identical.

Weapon Finesse is obvious for shifting to melee. Two-Weapon Fighting, worth considering. Quick Draw, maybe? Would make sense for when changing from crossbow to sword. Then again drawing doesn't provoke AoO, so not that useful?

[Sayt]

I reccommend the Dampen Presence Rogue Talent, as it also lets you skip out on the pre-req for Hellcat Stealth, as well as being useful in and of itself.

[Topaz]

Unless you're changing weapons in combat frequently, I haven't found Quick Draw to be all that useful. If you're going to be the party scout the Fast Stealth Talent is nice.

[Hunter Noventa]

Unless you're changing weapons in combat frequently, I haven't found Quick Draw to be all that useful. If you're going to be the party scout the Fast Stealth Talent is nice.

Agreed, Quick Draw isn't too useful. Dropping a weapon is a free action, drawing a weapon is a move action, but you can draw a weapon as part of a normal move if your BaB is 1 or greater. Granted, you have to remember to go pick up your weapon afterwards, but it's unlikely you'll be swapping that much.

[CharonsHelper]

Another vote for Unchained Rogue. It's a straight upgrade from the very weak Rogue class.

One thing I'd suggest is to get a pair of heavy wrist launchers. It lets you get a pair of SA at range with TWF when you beat a foe's initiative.

There are several ways to build a TWF rogue. If you want to be less reliant on flanking for SA, you could aim for Two-Weapon Feint & Greater Feint along with TWF feats, though it will eat all of your feats.

How much are you attached to trap-finding? (You can find traps without it, you just can't disarm magical ones.) You could take the knife-master archetype to increase your SA damage to d8s with daggers, and then take the River Rat trait for +1 damage with daggers and the Pharasma feat for +2 to attack with daggers.

Minor Magic to get Light is pretty bad. You can get a Wayfinder which has Light inherent for 500gp. I would suggest that you take Acid Splash for ranged touch attack sneak attack.

The Major Magic that I would suggest is Shield to jack up your AC.

[Topaz]

I still think that maxing UMD is a better long-term deal than Major/Minor Magic. It's a Class Skill, for Feats you can take Skill Focus for +3 and Magical Aptitude for +2 and for a Trait you can take Dangerously Curious for +1. With the +3 for a 17 CHA and one Skill Rank you start off with +13 at 1st level. That's a 70% chance to activate a Wand right off the bat.

[OctoberRaven]

I still think that maxing UMD is a better long-term deal than Major/Minor Magic. It's a Class Skill, for Feats you can take Skill Focus for +3 and Magical Aptitude for +2 and for a Trait you can take Dangerously Curious for +1. With the +3 for a 17 CHA and one Skill Rank you start off with +13 at 1st level. That's a 70% chance to activate a Wand right off the bat.

I don't disagree, but the Magic Talents are strictly for roleplaying purposes anyway. The character had spent time as a wizard's apprentice, so it would make sense that she'd know some basic magic.

As to Charon's Helper, Acid Orb is a good suggestion. My idea of using Light would be giving options; you can drop a Lit pebble down a vertical shaft to see how deep it is, for example. Plus, I'm not sure how available magic items will be in the setting. Charm Person (or maybe Disguise Self) I'm considering for social situations, as the rogue is also likely to be the face of the party as well.

[Topaz]

I admit that when my character was a Rogue 3/Wizard 1 Acid Splash was pretty much his signature spell. On the other *ahem* hand, Shocking Grasp never got old.

[CharonsHelper]

I admit that when my character was a Rogue 3/Wizard 1 Acid Splash was pretty much his signature spell. On the other *ahem* hand, Shocking Grasp never got old.

Shocking Grasp is pretty awesome early, but eventually a Pathfinder rogue (especially a TWF one) should grab a pair of Deliquescent Gloves. They increase all weapon damage by d6 acid, and when you're up against a foe with really high AC you use them for touch attacks directly, all without burning resources or a standard action for one swing.

For other classes d6 acid touch attacks aren't really worth your time even against really high ACs, but if that d6 acid damage comes with 5d6 SA (and potentially 4 hits) it's pretty sweet.