Wild Shape

[Ryuu Hayato]

Can I use Druid's Wild Shape in a beast form or only in a normal form? If he can Wild Shape in a beast form, he will use it everytime to regain all lost HP on last turn. As a moon druid, he will use it as bonus action and use your action to use a magic or attack.

[Wondermndjr]

You can only use your wild shape in beast form to retain the beast form. If you do this, I believe that you don't regain hp. To regain all your beast hp, you need to return to caster form and then back to beast form. Of course there is the 2/short rest limit, so your idea of "wild shape every turn" would not work.

[Dalebert]

You can only use your wild shape in beast form to retain the beast form. If you do this, I believe that you don't regain hp. To regain all your beast hp, you need to return to caster form and then back to beast form.

Or just transform into a different beast. Remember that moon druids can also expend a spell slot as a bonus action to heal themselves 1d8 per spell level while wild-shaped.


Of course there is the 2/short rest limit, so your idea of "wild shape every turn" would not work.

Right, until you hit level 20. But you would need to transform into something different. You can't transform into something you already are. Once you hit lvl 20, you could, for instance, switch back and forth between a woolly mammoth and a polar bear, returning to full hp each time. It seems fairly broken but remember that at that level, you might be facing enemy spellcaster who can install-kill you with a Disintegrate or Power Word Kill.

[Ryuu Hayato]

So, to use Wild Shape he need to be in a normal form?

[hymer]

So, to use Wild Shape he need to be in a normal form?

Not according to Sage Advice (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/08/16/wild-shape-in-wild-shape/). But the DM trumps the Sage and may see things differently.

[Dalebert]

So, to use Wild Shape he need to be in a normal form?

No, you can change directly from one shape into a different one. I just don't see how you can turn into something that you already are but I suppose a DM could allow it so that you could use up a wild shape to turn from an injured dire wolf into a full-health dire wolf. I don't understand what Wondermndjr means when he says you use wildshape to retain beast form. You automatically stay in the form you take until you turn into something else (with another use of the ability), or turn back to yourself, or until the time runs out (half your level in hours).

[Ryuu Hayato]

Not according to Sage Advice. But the DM trumps the Sage and may see things differently.

So, that is a really, really, really bad design ability. They have Infinite HP without any trouble.

[hymer]

So, that is a really, really, really bad design ability. They have Infinite HP without any trouble.

... at level 20, yes. Before that, it's two shapes per rest.

[NNescio]

... at level 20, yes. Before that, it's two shapes per rest.

And your forms generally suck at dealing damage after Level 5~6 (4 even, if feats are on the table), and have such low AC you're gonna get hit all the time anyway.

Plus, your enlarged sizes are going to suck so much indoors unless the DM deliberately accommodates you with 10~15 ft wide corridors.

Elemental forms are good, but they eat up two Wildshapes per transform instead of one. Just don't pick Fire Elemental unless you're sure no spellcasters are around, because you can be instantly killed by a Tidal Wave.

(We're implicitly assuming Moon Druid here because the capstone is pretty much useless and an outright liability to a Land, right?)


So, that is a really, really, really bad design ability. They have Infinite HP without any trouble.

Don't look at a class at Level 20 in isolation without taking into consideration how its class features work in the levels leading up there. Heck, the Wizard breaks the game in half at Level 17 anyway, even with conservative use of Wish (like say, Wishing a Simulacrum, without Simulacrum chaining cheese).

[Dalebert]

So, that is a really, really, really bad design ability. They have Infinite HP without any trouble.


... at level 20, yes. Before that, it's two shapes per rest.

And trust me, getting to level 20 is a LOT of trouble! :smallbiggrin: I've played lots and lots of D&D since 5e came out and my highest character is level 13.

[RickAllison]

So, that is a really, really, really bad design ability. They have Infinite HP without any trouble.

They also have numerous counters that have been Sage Advice-d into definitively working.

Undead HP/ability drain. Shadows will have an easier time hitting the forms due to lower AC, but the lowered Strength can actually wait and kill the druid once he is knocked out of beast form. Lowered HP is even worse, as it not only ticks down the Druid's health but also makes each individual form last less time. This is extremely flavorful and reinforces just why Druids hate undead so much :smallbiggrin:

Spells like Disintegrate or Power Word Kill that either bypass the process (PWK, Flesh to Stone, for example) or trigger when the target hits 0 (Disintegrate) will eliminate the Druid simultaneously.

Any monster abilities that bypass reverting at 0 HP. The Solar, two of the Beholder's rays, and anything Illithid are particularly nasty.

[Ryuu Hayato]

And your forms generally suck at dealing damage after Level 5~6 (4 even, if feats are on the table), and have such low AC you're gonna get hit all the time anyway.

Plus, your enlarged sizes are going to suck so much indoors unless the DM deliberately accommodates you with 10~15 ft wide corridors.

Elemental forms are good, but they eat up two Wildshapes per transform instead of one. Just don't pick Fire Elemental unless you're sure no spellcasters are around, because you can be instantly killed by a Tidal Wave.

(We're implicitly assuming Moon Druid here because the capstone is pretty much useless and an outright liability to a Land, right?)



Don't look at a class at Level 20 in isolation without taking into consideration how its class features work in the levels leading up there. Heck, the Wizard breaks the game in half at Level 17 anyway, even with conservative use of Wish (like say, Wishing a Simulacrum, without Simulacrum chaining cheese).

But, you'll have infinite HP and can cast 9th level spell. You don't need use attack of the beast, you can cast spell. You'll be more tank than a Fighter and Barbarian, also can cast spell. What's the point being a Fighter or a Barbarian?

[NNescio]

But, you'll have infinite HP and can cast 9th level spell. You don't need use attack of the beast, you can cast spell. You'll be more tank than a Fighter and Barbarian, also can cast spell. What's the point being a Fighter or a Barbarian?

Again, at level 20. And you don't have infinite HP anyway since something can just burst you down before it's your turn. Or just hit you with Save or Suck/Save or Die spells/effects. And you still can't cast spells with material components.

Meanwhile Wizards and Sorcerers get Wish shenanigans, which let them potentially cast two non-cantrip spells a turn and maintain concentration on both spells. Wizards also get to abuse True Polymorph for minions (along with Bards and Sorcs). Clerics get a fool-proof Divine Intervention, which is sorta like a Wish effect already (albeit more sbject to DM's scrutiny, but you can potentially get away with stronger effects), and Arcana Clerics get both Wish and foolproof Divine Intervention. Clerics also get Antimagic Field, which can royally screw over your Wildshapes. And the Wizard (gee, he gets all the good stuff, doesn't he) also gets AMF, 'though he can't really whup your ass with it unless he has traps and minions set up beforehand... or if he happens to go Bladesinger.

And Illusionist Wizards? They get to warp reality starting from level 14 already. In a half-mile radius (granted, at the rate of one effect/object per action). On a good day the Level 14 Illusionist can take down a Level 20 Moon Druid perma-wildshaped into an Air Elemental if the latter wanders into the Illusionist's territory.

You, the only worthwhile level 9 spell you're casting is Foresight (taking Shapechange is just admitting failure), which is admittedly a very good spell (and one Clerics would kill over), but itcan be stripped with Dispel Magic (especially by Warlocks with Glibness), and Diviners (see, Wizards again?) can just say lolnope to Foresight with Portent. Or, you know, AMF.

(Beholders are pretty much the bane of your existence.)

I mean, sure, yeah, shucks to be Fighty Guy or the Barb at level 20, but then again, so are most martials at that level.

[hymer]

And you still can't cast spells with material components.

Well, most material components too at level 20. The text on the Archdruid continues on the other side of the page. *shrug* I didn't know until it was pointed out to me.

[Vogonjeltz]

Not according to Sage Advice. But the DM trumps the Sage and may see things differently.

Isn't that Mike, not the official ruling, Mearls?


No, you can change directly from one shape into a different one. I just don't see how you can turn into something that you already are but I suppose a DM could allow it so that you could use up a wild shape to turn from an injured dire wolf into a full-health dire wolf. I don't understand what Wondermndjr means when he says you use wildshape to retain beast form. You automatically stay in the form you take until you turn into something else (with another use of the ability), or turn back to yourself, or until the time runs out (half your level in hours).

PHB 66, in the base description of the Wild Shape ability: "You can stay in a beast shape for a number of hours equal to half your druid level (rounded down). You then revert to your normal form unless you expend another use of this feature. You can revert to your normal form earlier by using a bonus action on your turn. You automatically revert if you fall unconscious, drop to 0 hit points, or die."

Bolded right there, using Wild Shape in beast shape extends the shapes duration.

It only makes sense that using the feature wouldn't renew the shapes hit points anyway, as if it did, that would make the Combat Wild Shape feature's 2nd function practically worthless.

[Ryuu Hayato]

Isn't that Mike, not the official ruling, Mearls?



PHB 66, in the base description of the Wild Shape ability: "You can stay in a beast shape for a number of hours equal to half your druid level (rounded down). You then revert to your normal form unless you expend another use of this feature. You can revert to your normal form earlier by using a bonus action on your turn. You automatically revert if you fall unconscious, drop to 0 hit points, or die."

Bolded right there, using Wild Shape in beast shape extends the shapes duration.

It only makes sense that using the feature wouldn't renew the shapes hit points anyway, as if it did, that would make the Combat Wild Shape feature's 2nd function practically worthless.

So he can't wild shape in a wild shape?

[Dalebert]

Bolded right there, using Wild Shape in beast shape extends the shapes duration.

It only makes sense that using the feature wouldn't renew the shapes hit points anyway, as if it did, that would make the Combat Wild Shape feature's 2nd function practically worthless.

My bad. That's a case that just seems so rare that I forgot about it. I've played a couple different moon druids now and I've never needed more time in wild shape. That said, if you change back and then turn into that form again, doesn't it have full hit points? Unless by amazing coincidence, the initial time runs out in the middle of a battle, wouldn't it make more sense to just change back and then into that form again to refresh hp?

[hymer]

Isn't that Mike, not the official ruling, Mearls?

Whoever it is, the DM gets to decide in the end.


Bolded right there, using Wild Shape in beast shape extends the shapes duration.

How do you figure this is the only way you can use wild shape in wild shape? It seems to me it relates to something you can do to avoid dropping a wild shape that's about to run out of time.

[Dalebert]

Has anyone here EVER stayed in wild shape past the time limit and used an extra charge? It's a minimum of an hour and that's enough to short rest and get charges back. Heck, seems I'd want to change back for a moment just so I can scratch an otherwise unreachable itch before I blow another charge to wild shape for more time.


It only makes sense that using the feature wouldn't renew the shapes hit points anyway, as if it did, that would make the Combat Wild Shape feature's 2nd function practically worthless.

Hardly! You only get two uses of it per short rest. The 2nd function is an in-battle tactic typically. You're in the middle of battle and you want to stay wild-shapped. Dropping to zero reverts you. You might be out of wild shapes or you might just want to save the other one if you don't expect a short rest for a while. Even if you don't mind blowing a charge, changing back and changing into the form again (refreshing hp) uses up your entire turn. You can't also attack or take other actions if you do that.

[hymer]

Has anyone here EVER stayed in wild shape past the time limit and used an extra charge?

I haven't in an actual game, but as part of surveillance operation I could see it happening.

[Vogonjeltz]

So he can't wild shape in a wild shape?

Well, they can, but activating the ability appears to just extend the current beast shapes duration.


My bad. That's a case that just seems so rare that I forgot about it. I've played a couple different moon druids now and I've never needed more time in wild shape. That said, if you change back and then turn into that form again, doesn't it have full hit points? Unless by amazing coincidence, the initial time runs out in the middle of a battle, wouldn't it make more sense to just change back and then into that form again to refresh hp?

I'd say yes shifting out and back in gives full hit points for the shape, it's worth noting that it costs your bonus action to shift out, so that would at least limit the actions you can take doing so.

So, if you've used your action already, you might have to wait till next turn to get back into form, presenting enemies a window to harm the actual druid.


Whoever it is, the DM gets to decide in the end.

The point being Mike Mearls isn't Sage Advice. That site throws every statement by a WotC employee (official or not) together claiming it's SA, it isn't.


How do you figure this is the only way you can use wild shape in wild shape? It seems to me it relates to something you can do to avoid dropping a wild shape that's about to run out of time.

It flatly states what happens when you use wild shape while in wild shape. Form extension. Every other mention of the use of wild shape in that entry is indicating a transformation from the term "normal form" into "beast shape".

i.e. "When you transform, you assume the beast's hit points and Hit Dice."

If you're not transforming, you can't assume the hit points, ergo merely extending the shape does not refresh hit points, it requires transformation.


Hardly! You only get two uses of it per short rest. The 2nd function is an in-battle tactic typically. You're in the middle of battle and you want to stay wild-shapped. Dropping to zero reverts you. You might be out of wild shapes or you might just want to save the other one if you don't expect a short rest for a while. Even if you don't mind blowing a charge, changing back and changing into the form again (refreshing hp) uses up your entire turn. You can't also attack or take other actions if you do that.

I was thinking in terms of Archdruid granting unlimited charges, if it allowed refresh of hp without transforming it would undermine the validity of the lower level ability then. I agree it has value assuming that's not possible, which is I think the assumption the games text makes as well.

[Dalebert]

Well, they can, but activating the ability appears to just extend the current beast shapes duration.

Right, or it's being used to become a different beast. Pretty sure it doesn't say anywhere you have to turn back before you can turn into something else.

[hymer]

The point being Mike Mearls isn't Sage Advice. That site throws every statement by a WotC employee (official or not) together claiming it's SA, it isn't.

Right, so we could have a protracted argument over which designers' advice we think is right and which is wrong, and how to rank designers against each other, and quibble over specific examples of controversial rulings, and look up farback-engine catches of times when they changed their minds. Except, of course, I couldn't possibly be bothered to do that, and I hope you couldn't either. You and I don't agree on this particular bit of minutia, and there's little reason to think we will.
The OP will have to ask their DM what is the correct ruling, and if OP is the DM, s/he will have to make up her/his own mind. If s/he can't make up their mind, s/he could look to the most official ruling s/he can find - which is in those tweets as far as I know. Or they could make up their minds based on opinions in a forum. Since the two of us can't agree, it should be obvious that there's something to be said for both sides. Or they could ask their players what they think, which is probably better than listening to the two of us disagree.
If it'll make you feel better, I'll amend my statement to something like 'the Sage Advice webpage here (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/08/16/wild-shape-in-wild-shape/)'. Is that better?

Edit: Edited it to
Not according to tweets (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/08/16/wild-shape-in-wild-shape/). But the DM trumps the designers and may see things differently.


It flatly states what happens when you use wild shape while in wild shape. Form extension. Every other mention of the use of wild shape in that entry is indicating a transformation from the term "normal form" into "beast shape".

It's in a section dealing with the duration of wild shape. It tells you of one mechanical aspect of your wild shape: How you can extend an existing form. It doesn't then go on to say that there's nothing else you can do with it.
When I started typing this section, I thought I was going to say that DMs could read it differently from the way you read it. But reading it again now, I'm actually struggling to see your point of view, and now failing. I can't comprehend how you can read into that section what you're stating, unless it's an attempt to fix Archdruid (and I'm not implying I agree or disagree on whether it needs fixing). *shrug*

[Vogonjeltz]

Right, or it's being used to become a different beast. Pretty sure it doesn't say anywhere you have to turn back before you can turn into something else.

Well, all the paragraphs are written from the perspective of the character changing from themselves into a beast shape.

A collection of such indicators:

"Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast"
"When you transform, you assume the beast's hit points and Hit Dice."
"When you revert to your normal form, you return to the number of hit points you had before you transformed."
"You choose whether your equipment...merges into your new form.... Equipment that merges with the the form has no effect until you leave the form."

It also doesn't say that any of the things which apply to beasts (which is basically everything listed in the wild shape ability entry) is applicable when transforming into one of the elementals (as they are not beasts). But we can glean contextually that it's meant to.


Right, so we could have a protracted argument over which designers' advice we think is right and which is wrong,

I doubt it would be protracted. Crawford is the rules arbiter for wotc, not Mearls. The advice of any employee who isn't Crawford carries no more official weight than the janitor in the building.


If it'll make you feel better, I'll amend my statement to something like 'the Sage Advice webpage here'. Is that better?

I'd feel better if you linked to the actual Sage Advice page, or to Crawford's twitter. What you've linked to there is a third party site with, as we've revealed in this conversation alone, misleading information.


It's in a section dealing with the duration of wild shape. It tells you of one mechanical aspect of your wild shape: How you can extend an existing form. It doesn't then go on to say that there's nothing else you can do with it.

It's the entry for wild shape. The beyond the context clues listed above, there's also the statement in the Archdruid ability (pg 68): "You gain this benefit in both your normal shape and your beast shape from Wild Shape.

That directly indicates there's a binary Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde relationship between the two states of being. Like flicking a light switch, it's either on or off.

All the book's textual indicators state a transformation occurs where one leaves their normal form and enters a beast shape. If they are in beast shape, they're necessarily out of normal form, so nothing that would occur from normal form should apply.

[Dalebert]

Those indicators don't say much to the contrary.


A collection of such indicators:

"Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast"
"When you transform, you assume the beast's hit points and Hit Dice."
"When you revert to your normal form, you return to the number of hit points you had before you transformed."
"You choose whether your equipment...merges into your new form.... Equipment that merges with the the form has no effect until you leave the form."


For instance, "your statistics get replaced by the beast." So once you're a beast, the beasts statistics are temporarily your statistics. And "you transform", emphasis yours--what? You're not you anymore when you take a different shape? We're getting into some abstract existentialism now.

Anyway, it is specifically made clear that you retain class features while wild-shaped unless they're physically impossible to perform. Therefore, you retain the ability to wild shape into beasts while wild-shaped into a beast.

[Saggo]

It flatly states what happens when you use wild shape while in wild shape.

More accurately, it flatly states what happens when your duration runs out and you have another use of Wild Shape left, and that's really it.

[Vogonjeltz]

Those indicators don't say much to the contrary.



For instance, "your statistics get replaced by the beast." So once you're a beast, the beasts statistics are temporarily your statistics. And "you transform", emphasis yours--what? You're not you anymore when you take a different shape? We're getting into some abstract existentialism now.

Anyway, it is specifically made clear that you retain class features while wild-shaped unless they're physically impossible to perform. Therefore, you retain the ability to wild shape into beasts while wild-shaped into a beast.

Yes, and how those features function is governed by wild shape. Nothing says the feature isn't still there, just that it works in a different way while transformed.

[Ryuu Hayato]

I really don't think that they imagine to use Wild Shape every turn to refresh the beast's HP or transform into another beast as a bonus action and cast spell as a action.

[Dalebert]

Nothing says the feature isn't still there, just that it works in a different way while transformed.

But it doesn't say anything about not using it in the original way--to turn into a beast of a certain CR, etc. It merely says you change back at the end of the duration unless you spend a charge of it to continue in that shape, i.e. you can ALSO expend a use of it in this manner--specifically at the end of the duration to extend the duration. Adding something you can do with it in no way means or even implies that it can't continue to be used to change you into a beast, i.e. a different one than what you currently are.