Altering Wild Shape: More Forms, less HP shield

[rudy]

So, I'm thinking about making changes to Wild Shape, one of the more ambitious alterations I've considered.

This is not about "nerfing" the druid. Except for the early level progression of the Moon druid, I do not consider it notably overpowered. It's primarily about the fact that I don't thematically like the idea of animal forms serving primarily as hp buffers. "Oh, I'm a wounded bear? Look, I'm a fully healthy bear again!". I want to emphasize the idea that these are alternate forms more intimately tied into the soul of the druid, not just discardable meat-suits. The changes still allow for a lot of hit point buffering, but in a way that I think is more thematically interesting.

I'm considering four key changes:

First, the druid would gain more wild shape uses per rest. I'm not sure about the general number, but perhaps 2 + level/4.

Second, the druid would have exactly one form for each type of creature. What I mean by that is, every time they turned into a Dire Wolf it would be the "same" Dire Wolf, same fur patterns, etc. Mainly this would just be a fluff/roleplay change, if not for the third item:

Third, Each form the druid turns into has its own hit point pool that does not automatically regenerate. When the druid spends hit dice to heal herself, then all animal forms the druid has would gain the same number of hit points back. [I should note here that I removed the "heal to full with long rest" rule; characters can spend the hit dice they gain from a long rest to heal, but do not otherwise heal fully]

Other healing would not carry over in this way, though it could be applied to the animal forms when in them as usual. If the druid were reduced to 0 hit points in animal form, excess damage would carry over as usual, but the animal form would become unusable until the druid had spent hit dice at healing herself during a rest.

Fourth, a druid would have to "prepare" a certain number of animal forms for access during a long rest. This limit would be relatively generous, perhaps 3 + wisdom modifier in a given day. For most players this would rarely come up; it's more about having an interesting trade-off between utility forms and meat-shield forms. That limitation should leave plenty of room for a healthy amount of both, however.

The one thing I don't like about these changes is that they mean a slight increase in bookkeeping. Specifically, you would have to track one hp pool for each type of animal the druid assumes. I don't think that's too excessive however.

Anyway, this is still in the alpha form, and I'm interested to hear criticism or feedback on the idea.

[RickAllison]

I had actually been toying with a similar idea for a while, though for different reasons. I would like druids to use a variety of forms rather than the "best", and a persistent HP pool for the creatures seems like the best way to do it.

[Zman]

What about a simple, cannot Wild Shape into the same form until they've finished a Long Rest. It would stop repetitive uses of the best form. You could also add a Wildshape Progression, maybe 2nd Level 2/short rest, 5th level 3/short rest, 11th level 4/short rest, 17th level 5/short rest, 20th level Arch Druid unlimited.



PS, Your criticism of the Interaction between my Prof to AC rules was justified and I made added a clause that stipulates it only affects the creatures base AC, and can't be combined with a Monk's Unarmored Defense or Intuitive Defense and now functions as intended. Thank you.

[rudy]

What about a simple, cannot Wild Shape into the same form until they've finished a Long Rest. It would stop repetitive uses of the best form. You could also add a Wildshape Progression, maybe 2nd Level 2/short rest, 5th level 3/short rest, 11th level 4/short rest, 17th level 5/short rest, 20th level Arch Druid unlimited.
Your first idea is definitely a thought to consider.

Both of your suggestions together, though, is too much of a power boost. I added the extra uses of wild shape above as a boost to counteract the "nerf" of persistent hp pools. If the animal forms were fully healed between uses AND the druid had more uses per short rest, the net effect would be to make them able to soak up *even more* damage than they already could.


PS, Your criticism of the Interaction between my Prof to AC rules was justified and I made added a clause that stipulates it only affects the creatures base AC, and can't be combined with a Monk's Unarmored Defense or Intuitive Defense and now functions as intended. Thank you.
Cool; glad it was helpful.

[Oramac]

Another thought I just had (so I haven't even considered balance), is to just make stat blocks for druid forms.

For example: you can shape into a Wolf. Ignore the monster manual, here's a piece of paper with your stats.

you can shape into a Bear. Ignore the monster manual, here's a piece of paper with your stats.

you can shape into an Eagle. Ignore the monster manual, here's a piece of paper with your stats.

Etc. Etc. Etc.

[Zman]

Your first idea is definitely a thought to consider.

Both of your suggestions together, though, is too much of a power boost. I added the extra uses of wild shape above as a boost to counteract the "nerf" of persistent hp pools. If the animal forms were fully healed between uses AND the druid had more uses per short rest, the net effect would be to make them able to soak up *even more* damage than they already could.


Cool; glad it was helpful.

It would, but what if you add a different moon druid wild shape progression. For Land Druid it is just fine. I recommend 1/4 Level in CR, so CR 1/2 at 2nd, CR1 at 4th, CR2 at 8th, and 1/3 level CR at 10th which give CR3. CR4 at 12ths etc like normal.

Or alternatively you can keep it the default 2 Wildshapes per short rest with the ability to push it with a DC10+Form CR Con Save or suffer a level of exhaustion.

[rudy]

It would, but what if you add a different moon druid wild shape progression. For Land Druid it is just fine. I recommend 1/4 Level in CR, so CR 1/2 at 2nd, CR1 at 4th, CR2 at 8th, and 1/3 level CR at 10th which give CR3. CR4 at 12ths etc like normal.

Or alternatively you can keep it the default 2 Wildshapes per short rest with the ability to push it with a DC10+Form CR Con Save or suffer a level of exhaustion.
The first is still too much. At level 12 they could take the form of two earth elementals per short rest, with full hp each. For one example.

I don't like the idea of complicating it with saves and exhaustion, though I acknowledge that could be a valid way to balance it.

[Linker2k]

What you can do is to roll the dice for total HP each time you transform of the beast you are turning into.

[rudy]

What you can do is to roll the dice for total HP each time you transform of the beast you are turning into.
I'm afraid that doesn't really eliminate either the incentive to stick to only the "optimal" forms, or the treatment of wild shapes as disposable meat-suits.

[Linker2k]

I'm afraid that doesn't really eliminate either the incentive to stick to only the "optimal" forms, or the treatment of wild shapes as disposable meat-suits.


When you use a "optimal" just for meat shield you count on the high hp, if you roll the dice you will give the player the possbility of rolling really bad and start thinking a little more about the functionality of the shape other than just HP.

I was thinking this added to what you are adding.

[rudy]

When you use a "optimal" just for meat shield you count on the high hp, if you roll the dice you will give the player the possbility of rolling really bad and start thinking a little more about the functionality of the shape other than just HP.

To some extent that may be true, but the forms with the highest hp are still going to have the highest average hp when rolling. I appreciate the suggestion, though.

[eastmabl]

Have you considered doing this as a druid subclass, like a Master of Many Forms?

It might be easier to balance if you're figuring out how to make the existing rules conform to your ideas about the subclass than to blow up the existing rules.

[Zman]

When you use a "optimal" just for meat shield you count on the high hp, if you roll the dice you will give the player the possbility of rolling really bad and start thinking a little more about the functionality of the shape other than just HP.

I was thinking this added to what you are adding.

Not really, when you are talking lots of dice you aren't looking ant a terribly large standard deviation. I mean an 8d8 comes out to 36+\- 6.5, and that is before static Con Modifiers make the end result even more stable.

[rudy]

Have you considered doing this as a druid subclass, like a Master of Many Forms?

It might be easier to balance if you're figuring out how to make the existing rules conform to your ideas about the subclass than to blow up the existing rules.
I suppose I could do that at the same time as outlawing the Circle of the Moon, but one of my goals is to remove the use of "re-usable meat suit" tactics for any druids.

[JellyPooga]

Myself, I'd like to see wild shape forms based on the physical stats of the Druid in question. If you're a big burly Druid, you turn into a big burly bear or wolf or sparrow, but if you're a small scrawny Druid then your bear or wolf (or sparrow) forms are equally scrawny. It makes Druids more MAD if they want to use Wild Shape in combat to any effect, but I don't see that as a bad thing.

It would mean making a template for each form, to determine just how that form affects you, but using a simple "stat minus 10 or 11 as a modifier" would be easy enough.

[Zman]

Myself, I'd like to see wild shape forms based on the physical stats of the Druid in question. If you're a big burly Druid, you turn into a big burly bear or wolf or sparrow, but if you're a small scrawny Druid then your bear or wolf (or sparrow) forms are equally scrawny. It makes Druids more MAD if they want to use Wild Shape in combat to any effect, but I don't see that as a bad thing.

It would mean making a template for each form, to determine just how that form affects you, but using a simple "stat minus 10 or 11 as a modifier" would be easy enough.

Hmmm.... Makes me thing a fixed form Druid could be workable. Have it modify the base creatures stats and give it a specific progression. It could be a pool of Hp that gets its own pool of hit dice, and the Druid can't regen it's HP without resting or spells. The Druid could change form almost at will and it'd be easier to balance as it wouldn't start at full HP, though it would eliminate the utility uses of Wildshape.

[JellyPooga]

Hmmm.... Makes me thing a fixed form Druid could be workable. Have it modify the base creatures stats and give it a specific progression. It could be a pool of Hp that gets its own pool of hit dice, and the Druid can't regen it's HP without resting or spells. The Druid could change form almost at will and it'd be easier to balance as it wouldn't start at full HP, though it would eliminate the utility uses of Wildshape.

The idea of having to choose a single or limited selection of fixed forms that advance as you advance is tempting and certainly fits in with my personal idea of what the shapeshifting Druid should be. There's even an argument to make it work somewhat like the 3.5 Rangers Favoured Enemies, where as you increase in level you not only get to choose additional forms, but also get to choose which of your previous forms increase in power.

For Example;

At level 2, you might get a choice of Bear, Wolf or Panther. It has X stats (bear is strong, wolf is fast, panther is extra-toothy, or something).

At level 4, you could get the additional choices of some aquatic forms, or you can choose something from the previous list. You also get to choose an existing form to improve to X+1. So now you have;
- X+1 and Y

At level 6, you choose an additional form that you can shape into (perhaps adding the option of some tiny forms) and again get to improve a previous form, giving you a choice of;
- X+1, Y+1 and Z
- X+2, Y and Z

As level increases you get the choice of adding more forms (including increasing amounts of utility; introducing fly speeds, smaller or larger forms, etc.) AND improving previous forms, allowing the option of specialising in one form OR generalising by improving many but to a lesser degree.

This way you can (sort of) replicate the likes of Beorn from Lord of the Rings, who has one very powerful alternate form (in this case a bear) OR going for someone more like the Kuakganni from the Deed of Paksenarrion series (who, if you're unfamiliar, have that more generalised approach. At least as I understand it).

I'm a little wary of using HP as the limiting factor on usage of Wild Shape. Whilst it certainly has its merits and I very much like the idea, it's extra HP totals to track (more book keeping) and it's somewhat at odds with the usual D&D method of X/day (or in 5ed, per short or long rest). It's also somewhat at odds with the notion that it's one creature in several different forms. I know the current system with the HP-Buffer is also at odds, but I should like to see a system that allows for a Druid in Bear-form to be shot by an arrow and still have that arrow stuck in him should he change back without removing it, if that makes sense.

In short, I like the idea of Wild Shape giving you extra utility both in and out of combat, but I don't like the notion that it should give you either a limited OR an unlimited pool of temporary or additional HP to play with; that concept doesn't gel with the way I see shapeshifting Druids.

Just some thoughts to digest.

[rudy]

The idea of having to choose a single or limited selection of fixed forms that advance as you advance is tempting and certainly fits in with my personal idea of what the shapeshifting Druid should be. There's even an argument to make it work somewhat like the 3.5 Rangers Favoured Enemies, where as you increase in level you not only get to choose additional forms, but also get to choose which of your previous forms increase in power.

With respect, while I think the idea has potential, it's far too complex of a change to make and to attempt to balance for my liking. I wish you luck if you want to undertake it, though.

[Afrodactyl]

How about having it so that the animal form and the human form both take half of the damage each?

[JellyPooga]

How about having it so that the animal form and the human form both take half of the damage each?

Could work. As I've mentioned, though, I would personally prefer a Wild Shape that doesn't give any kind of HP buffer. I see Tanking as the purview of Barbarians, Fighters and Paladins, primarily. Druids don't belong on that list, except where their magic can be used to evade damage as much as absorb it. The Druid as a damage-sponge just doesn't fit my mental image of them.

I would have HP be unaffected by Wild Shape at all; i.e. all damage taken in Wild Shape form carries over to your regular HP total. The utility and power of having access to the myriad forms available should be incentive enough, I think.

[Joe the Rat]

For a form library cap, my first thought is using the spells prepared limit (Druid level + Wisdom modifier) - representing an expansion of ability as you advance. If that's too fast (25+ at 20), you could use highest druid spell level (1-9) plus wismod. An extra form ready every two levels.