Players with enchantment spells and 'Boss Fights' (Pathfinder)

[Binks]

Took a quick look around the forum and I didn't see anything exactly like this, so please forgive me if I'm repeating something. I am still a relatively new GM to the pathfinder system (this is my first campaign and it's been running for a few months now).

I have a group of players in a campaign that I'm beginning to run into trouble with. Two of them are enchantment based spellcasters (one an Illusion/Enchantment Sorcerer, the other a Mentalist). They've been spamming powerful enchantment spells with very high save DCs against most big threats the party faces (stuff like Battle and Hold Person, save or suck spells basically). It was funny the first few times they completely neutered an encounter with a single spell, but I still need to be able to challenge the party, obviously, and having all fights be 'here's 20 guys, go ahead and make a few of them terrible' is not going to work in the long run (not to mention that most of their spells, like Babble, are AoE).

So I'm looking for advice from people who have already faced high level PCs with 'save or suck' spells. I don't want to make the PCs irrelevant, but I also want to avoid them being able to neuter encounters trivially. Here's what I've done so far:

Enemies with Spell Resistance.
Pros - Makes the spellcaster's jobs harder, while keeping the ball in their court as they are rolling the check.
Cons - If the only enemies left have SR the spellcasters are less useful than the dps. Also, one lucky roll for them can still neutralize the threat.

Save Boosting Enemy Items
Pros - Makes the spells harder, but not impossible. Visible to the PCs who will have a very high save and will allow PCs to damage the items.
Cons - Will be difficult to balance the whole 'disabling' thing to be hard enough to be a challenge, without making it so hard it's not worth spending actions on.

Enemies with autocast self Dispel
Pros - Lets the effect work for some time.
Cons - Kind of gimmicky and enemy spellcasters are exceedingly rare, so not a long-term solution.

Minion enemies with Dispel Guns
Pros - Keeps the big guys relatively safe until all the little guys are eliminated, dispel guns already existed and were shown to the PCs a while ago.
Cons - Difficult to balance the guns CL to be fair to the PCs.


Are there any other good ways in Pathfinder to make enemies more resilient in the face of 'save or suck' spells? I really want to encourage my players to play the characters they want, but I can't just let them trample over all threats without repercussions and their enemies need to be a threat. The way I have designed my campaign exhausting spell slots isn't very common (and the PCs have a ton of spell slots available) so I'd rather avoid that one if at all possible (though if it turns out to be the best way to handle the situation I'll do it. I do plan to have a few extremely long missions but they'll be the exception rather than the rule).

Thanks for any advice.

[Flickerdart]

Specifically for enchantments, the job of an enchanter in a boss battle is not to charm the boss. It's to command the boss's minions that he's charmed up to this point to attack the boss.

[Elder_Basilisk]

A few other potential strategies:

1. Protection from good/law/etc.
Magic circle is a low level, long duration spell that offers protection against a lot more spells in Pathfinder than it really should (see FAQ). For non-spellcasting bad guys, placing the battle in an unhallowed (or hallowed depending on your players) area can provide this effect sometimes. This is obvious when the BBEG is the high priest of Tiamat. Of course his temple is unhallowed. But it's an option even when there is no clear religious connection. The bandits are hiding out in the ruined temple of Set? No hold/charm/dominate persons for you.

2. Bad guys who are immune. Many enchantments only effect living creatures. Undead, constructs, etc, whether as minions or as the BBEG will mitigate the effectiveness of the players strategies.

If you don't want the BBEG to be undead/construct/etc, this can be combined with battles where the "BBEG" is not the main threat of the encounter. For example, the evil sorcerer may be the BBEG of the adventure, but it could be his horde of undead minions or his pet golem that actually form the bulk of the CR/EL. Just because he's the "BBEG" doesn't mean he has to be the most threatening thing on the table.

3. Sequential fights. You mentioned that the PCs mess things up with area effect save or suck enchantments. If there are six weaker bad guys in round 1 and several more show up in round 2, the lieutenant shows up in round 3, and the BBEG doesn't show up until round 4, the PCs will either hold onto their spells so as not to "waste" them on a trivial encounter and end up being able to only target a few bad guys with the spells (the other guys being mixed with the PCs and difficult to target or already dead) or they will use them early and won't have them to target the BBEG and lieutenant with.

4. Readied actions to disrupt spellcasting. You won't always have the intelligence/organization or the bodies for it but even an NPC two levels lower than the PCs with a readied action to disrupt spellcasting can be pretty effective. (Bonus points if he's a crossbowman with Overwatch style or if he's a wizard and will disrupt the spell with an ice storm).

5. Line of sight/effect issues. Darkness shenanigans, mist shenanigans, tight dungeon corridors, or just a detailed map with walls and boulders and bushes and other things that block line of sight and/or effect. Paying close attention to the rules and terrain can help make your battles more immersive and dynamic and can also mitigate the effectiveness of spellcasting, especially with area effects.

[AnimeTheCat]

Hi! just a few questions before I get to my suggestions:
What level/party comp do you have going on? sometimes it's less a matter of challenging them more, but making something more well suited for someone else.
Have the bad guys you've been throwing at them had any sort of connection?

So, throw some undead their way. Undead are typically immune to the charmy bits that enchanters throw around, additionally they get some decent resistances that will make a good challenge for the front liners as well. Another option is to throw humanoids with levels of martial classes that get higher will saves. This makes them resilient to the enchantment spells as well as giving a challenge to the front line people. A third option, which is pretty closely tied to my second question, is set up an ambush for them. If these enemies that they're defeating so easily with these spells can have one guy get away, or someone looking at the battle from the shadows then it would make sense that organization wants to get revenge. Archers hide in the treeline on a road and create trouble for the enchanters in the back. Have 2 guys on each side of the road hiding in the treeline, have 3 guys up front and center. If your party is 4 people strong, this is probably the absolute maximum you should throw at them. This keeps them spaced out and threatens the casters directly. IF the opponents they've been defeating don't have any sort of connection to each other, this strategy still works, but it will need to be more crafty. Example of "More Crafty":

A older man is picking up bits and pieces of luggage from an overturned cart. He's bawling his eyes out as he goes about his work. When asked what's wrong he'll immediately run to the strongest looking party member and beg for help getting his daughter back. They were attacked by bandits on their way to the city and they dragged her away to do unspeakable things to her. He'll show the party the tracks where they dragged her off. He picks up a dagger from the wreckage and say's "I'll come with you. I'll not sit idly by when my only chance of saving her is finally upon me". Whether the party accepts or not, that was the signal. As the Party starts making their way in to the forest, the old mad stabs one of the enchanters in the back and the rest of the bandit thugs jump out of the woods. Combat ensues while the party is surrounded. Keep some archers in the trees at varying distances and have the enemy use hit and run tactics to make it more difficult to target them, using the trees and bushes for cover. You're fighting on their terms and they're ready. Have a few mundane traps set up so that if the enchanters try to retreat they get snared or damaged.

That's what I would do, but I could tailor better if I had better party information. You can do the above scenario with as few as 4 bandits and the old man or as many as 7 bandits and the old man.

[Eldariel]

To be honest, it sounds like the World of Big Dumb Fighters dilemma that many new DMs and certain campaign styles cater to. Basically, I mean campaigns where almost all enemies are warriors, or creatures that play the part (ogres, giants, many monstrous humanoids, some undead, most animals, many magical beasts, etc.).

This is easy to DM and caters to certain tastes, but in D&D casters/caster monsters (outsiders, aberrations, fey, some mondtrous humanoids, some undead, certain dragons & magical beasts) are generally the best at fighting opposing casters.

To start with, good Will-saves are generally a property of casters/caster-likes and thus the same save-or-loses are less effective against them. Second, spellcasting brings many resistances and immunities to the table, and it enables removing those save-or-lose effects (e.g. Dispel Magic). Third, there are spells that are very effective against spellcasting such as Silence or Feeblemind. E.g. AOE Silence can be readied and used to disrupt a spell with verbal components very efficiently without a save with hefty future effect as well.

Another thing is treasure. Things that have treasure can use it as equipment. Items can give significant defensive boons to e.g. saves, or immunities. NPCs with class levels can further get additional gear. Particularly consumables like Potions or Scrolls are cheap and can give vast bonuses for when the enemy realizes they need an edge. Consumables used likewise don't bloat PC wealth.

Careful not to overdo it though. A good mix of enemy types and a balance in all things is the key to an enjoyable play experience where all the players feel useful but challenged. The SoL tactics will succeed many times even with more prepared foes and that's okay. Don't make it seem like the gameworld is out to get them (except for enemies aware of and preparing for the party; e.g. hostile organization they've had run-ins with before) but just generally prepared for a bit of everything (as is sensible).

[Binks]

Specifically for enchantments, the job of an enchanter in a boss battle is not to charm the boss. It's to command the boss's minions that he's charmed up to this point to attack the boss.
That's actually pretty close to what happened in the last encounter and it worked well, so this is kind of what I'm looking to head towards.


1. Protection from good/law/etc.
That's not a bad idea. The bad guys have already used Magic Circle as a trap, and protection spells aren't out of the question. The main issue I've run into is that the enemies are pretty low magic in general (and high tech) so I've not been running this way so far, but the idea of using terrain that just happens to be protected in some way is good and I will definitely be exploring that.


2. Bad guys who are immune.
The mesmerist has Psychic Inception, so immune guys are actually 50% chance guys for them. I had actually forgotten (again, inexperienced with the system) that constructs have immunities, and I could definitely start throwing those at the PCs for additional challenges. I also like the idea of the BBEG not being the main threat. That should be entirely doable and would be a great reversal of my status quo since it's so natural for me to make encounters 1 big guy and a bunch of minions. Having 1 weak guy in charge and a bunch of strong minions could be cool.


3. Sequential fights.
This is an interesting idea. Would take some work to setup (have to explain how the enemies are just a short distance away but not reachable by the PCs at encounter start) but that should be easily doable (teleportation is a thing after all). Hmm...


4. Readied actions to disrupt spellcasting.
Oh. Right. Concentration checks. Yeah, that would be really easy to setup. I usually have one or two minion soldier guys sitting around with actions available, readying to shoot anyone casting a spell could be a big deal. And it doesn't require any encounter changing, just a mindset change for the soldiers.


5. Line of sight/effect issues.
I had not considered darkness effect. They could be especially fun as we have a PC with darkvision in the party who doesn't get to use it very often since the sorcerer just conjures light on demand. Magic darkness could make things very interesting for the PCs, and equipping the enemies for it (darkvision visors) would be trivial to explain and add another level of tactics to the fight (kill a guy, grab his visor, give to a PC who can't see). And I know I use terrain far too infrequently, but had not considered its effects on spellcasters.


Hi! just a few questions before I get to my suggestions:
What level/party comp do you have going on? sometimes it's less a matter of challenging them more, but making something more well suited for someone else.
Have the bad guys you've been throwing at them had any sort of connection?
Level 8, Gunslinger (point blank pistol focus), Anti-Paladin / Hellknight (stealth and melee dps), Inquisitor (tank), Mesmerist (primary enchantment user) and Sorcerer (officially an Enchantment/Illusionist, but 90% of the time uses Enchantment spells and 10% uses Magic Missile).
Nearly all the threats they have faced have come from the same 'evil empire' group they are fighting against. The empire is aware of them (they deliberately let some of the enemies escape, despite NPC advice, and have been seeing the consequences since then of enemies aware of their tactics and using some of their tricks).

As mentioned above the mesmerist gets around undead pretty well (and using them isn't really in character for the empire, though constructs definitely are and I will begin using those).
Higher will saves is something I'm working on, actually higher saves in general. The default saves in the bestiary are terrible I've found, so I usually bump them up a big before throwing them at the PCs.
Ambush is good, especially since the sorcerer is a complete glass cannon. I actually have been planning a surprise encounter, the big problem they have is that they're all members of a specific species not found anywhere else (from the Far Realms), so they'd have to do some work to get a humanoid on their side first, but definitely possible.

Thanks guys for the advice, I'm definitely seeing some great ideas for new challenges, means to change general fights and new fight ideas I can setup to challenge this party.

EDIT:

To be honest, it sounds like the World of Big Dumb Fighters dilemma
That's not far off. The 'evil empire' is generally composed of soldiers with guns, not spellcasters. Changing the whole idea now isn't really feasibly, so I guess that's my own fault for not understanding the system when I started. I can certainly start incorporating constructs as a relatively common enemy type, and as the PCs get more powerful they'll start running into powerful psionics (though I'm terrible at running those I have learned).

I had not considered Silence or Feeblemind spells. I know my PCs would get pissed off (in a good way, IC) if the enemies silenced them, as in-battle banter is one of their favorite things, so that's a great idea. Especially since I could do a tech-replication of it (deafening gun or something similar) and hand it out to the basic troops.

Ooh. Enemies using scrolls or such on themselves. That's perfect for my next adventure actually (going to a place known for their scrolls and wands), so will definitely be using that.

And yeah, making things challenging and designing encounters to counter the PCs without going overboard and making the PC's abilities feel like a disadvantage is my biggest issue right now. I don't want to make my PCs feel like the world is out to get them, but I do want them to be aware that their actions have consequences, they are fighting a powerful an capable foe, and they shouldn't expect to always face easy enemies, but without going overboard. It's a difficult balancing act, and the more suggestions I have for how to deal with the issue the more I can use and avoid repetition.

Thanks.

[Eldariel]

Hm, well, there's still the option of using some casters with guns (some classes work rather well in that combination and even very technological societies might have a place for e.g. Alchemists, Clerics or Bards) and then there are some classes like Vigilante that are martial (and have a playable Gun-using archetype in Gunmaster) but have good base Will-saves.

[Binks]

Hm, well, there's still the option of using some casters with guns (some classes work rather well in that combination and even very technological societies might have a place for e.g. Alchemists, Clerics or Bards) and then there are some classes like Vigilante that are martial (and have a playable Gun-using archetype in Gunmaster) but have good base Will-saves.
Ooh. I had not considered enemy alchemists. That would be perfectly on flavor, and would allow them to have powerful casters without needing any kind of help. Will have to look into that.

It's not so much that everyone in their group has to use a gun, more that they're far more tech-based than magic-based as a society (the place they come from magic doesn't usually work well and is very dangerous), so having straight casters in their forces doesn't make a great deal of sense. I definitely need to do more casters, but straight wizards/sorcerers don't really fit the mold. Alchemists, psionics, and stolen scrolls/potions are definitely all possibilities for getting more spellcasting their side though.

[Elder_Basilisk]

This is an interesting idea. Would take some work to setup (have to explain how the enemies are just a short distance away but not reachable by the PCs at encounter start) but that should be easily doable (teleportation is a thing after all). Hmm...

Sequential encounters are actually not much work to set up at all. You just need to amend your assumptions and what miniatures you put on the map when. In fact, I would argue that they really should be the default encounter type for most situations.

For example: the party is assaulting the evil temple of evilness. They kick in the front doors and immediately fight the two sentries in the antechamber. In round 2, the third sentry who had been visiting the latrine opens the inner door and joins the fight while the fourth sentry (who had lousy perception/spot/listen checks) rings the bell and comes down from the bell tower. Round 3, that fourth sentry reaches the balcony while the undercleric bolsters his squad of undead and opens the catecomb door. Round 4, the undead appear in the main hall and move towards the antechamber while the surviving sentry retreats and hides behind a pillar. Round 5, the undercleric has finished buffing and moves into place. Round six, the high priest drops a flame strike or unholy blight (or chaos hammer as the case may be) on the group as he appears from his apartments behind the altar and his succubus/erinyes consort unleashes the appropriate spells.

Another example: The party is assaulting the bandits hideout. Round 1, they engage the archers on the bandit camp palisade. The archers signal the other bandits who grab their weapons on round 2 and boil out of the bunkhouse on round 3, but several of them aren't really skilled with missile weapons so they hide behind the palisade near the gate and under the hoardings--out of sight and line of effect until the PCs force the gate/dimension door/fly in/whatever. When that happens, they sound a horn and alert the bandit's spellcasting leader who will emerge from the central stockade in another round with his bodyguard (though he will be invisible so it will look like just the bodyguard at first). About that time, the prisoners to the west of the central stockade will make an escape attempt. If things go bad for the bandit leader, he will retreat to the garden where he has bound a corrupted nymph to the pool (next phase) and if things go on for more than four minutes after the horn, a patrol of bandits who were out hunting when they heard the horn will return and possibly attack the PCs from behind.

Teleportation, deliberate ambush, and other such scenarios can also result in progressive encounters. So the justification is not hard. Evaluating their difficulty vis a vis a straight-up everyone on the board at once fight can be a challenge, but you can consider the phases as separate encounters and add them all together to get an overall EL. For example, in the evil temple of evilness encounter, you might consider the initial 4 sentries as one encounter EL=APL and the undercleric plus undead as another encounter EL=APL, and the high priest as a separate encounter EL=APL+1. Independently, they are all fairly easy but if encountered all at once, they're APL+3.5 or so for a very challenging encounter. Maybe -1 EL for being spread out over several rounds but +1 EL for favorable terrain (unhallow in the evil temple of evilness).