Illusory Reality?

[LastCenturion]

I don't think my question is answered by RAW, at least not in any book I own. My question is this: How does the Illusory Reality ability interact with the more esoteric and atypical illusion spells? Specifically, I'm asking about Phantasmal Force and Invisibility, because they have the most confusing interactions. Quote from RAW:


By 14th level, you have learned the secret of weaving shadow magic into your illusions to give them a semi-reality. When you cast an illusion spell of 1st level or higher, you can choose one inanimate, nonm agical object that is part of the illusion and make that object real. You can do this on your turn as a bonus action while the spell is ongoing. The object remains real for 1 minute. For example, you can create an illusion of a bridge over a chasm and then make it real long enough for your allies to cross. The object can’t deal damage or otherwise directly harm anyone.

You craft an illusion that takes root in the mind of a creature that you can see within range. The target must make an Intelligence saving throw. On a failed save, you create a phantasmal object, creature, or other visible phenomenon of your choice that is no larger than a 10-foot cube and that is perceivable only to the target for the duration. This spell has no effect on undead or constructs. The phantasm includes sound, temperature, and other stimuli, also evident only to the creature. The target can use its action to examine the phantasm with an Intelligence (Investigation) check against your spell save DC. If the check succeeds, the target realizes that the phantasm is an illusion, and the spell ends. While a target is affected by the spell, the target treats the phantasm as if it were real. The target rationalizes any illogical outcomes from interacting with the phantasm. For example, a target attempting to walk across a phantasmal bridge that spans a chasm falls once it steps onto the bridge. If the target survives the fall, it still believes that the bridge exists and comes up with some other explanation for its fall—it was pushed, it slipped, or a strong wind might have knocked it off. An affected target is so convinced of the phantasm’s reality that it can even take damage from the illusion. A phantasm created to appear as a creature can attack the target. Similarly, a phantasm created to appear as fire, a pool of acid, or lava can burn the target. Each round on your turn, the phantasm can deal 1d6 psychic damage to the target if it is in the phantasm’s area or within 5 feet of the phantasm, provided that the illusion is of a creature or hazard that could logically deal damage, such as by attacking. The target perceives the damage as a type appropriate to the illusion.

A creature you touch becomes invisible until the spell ends. Anything the target is wearing or carrying is invisible as long as it is on the target’s person. The spell ends for a target that attacks or casts a spell. At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 3rd level or higher, you can target one additional creature for each slot level above 2nd.

My question is this: Using the example in Phantasmal Force, let's say I create a bridge illusion in the mind of a cultist, then use Illusory Reality to make real the illusion for one minute. There are a few different outcomes I can see from this:
- Illusory Reality doesn't affect the bridge, but the figment in the target's mind, achieving nothing.
- The bridge becomes real, and acts as a normal bridge for one minute. Only the target is unsurprised.
- The bridge becomes real, but only to the target. The target can cross freely, but anyone else who tries falls.
- The bridge becomes real, but is only visible to the target. Anyone else can stand there, but sees nothing.

My other question is this: With Invisibility, what happens to the target? The illusion... wait. As I'm writing this, I realize; Illusory Reality expressly only works on inanimate, nonmagical objects. Invisibility only works on creatures, which are RAI and RAW, not inanimate objects. The Phantasmal Force question still applies though.

[NNescio]

I don't think my question is answered by RAW, at least not in any book I own. My question is this: How does the Illusory Reality ability interact with the more esoteric and atypical illusion spells? Specifically, I'm asking about Phantasmal Force and Invisibility, because they have the most confusing interactions. Quote from RAW:





My question is this: Using the example in Phantasmal Force, let's say I create a bridge illusion in the mind of a cultist, then use Illusory Reality to make real the illusion for one minute. There are a few different outcomes I can see from this:
- Illusory Reality doesn't affect the bridge, but the figment in the target's mind, achieving nothing.
- The bridge becomes real, and acts as a normal bridge for one minute. Only the target is unsurprised.
- The bridge becomes real, but only to the target. The target can cross freely, but anyone else who tries falls.
- The bridge becomes real, but is only visible to the target. Anyone else can stand there, but sees nothing.

My other question is this: With Invisibility, what happens to the target? The illusion... wait. As I'm writing this, I realize; Illusory Reality expressly only works on inanimate, nonmagical objects. Invisibility only works on creatures, which are RAI and RAW, not inanimate objects. The Phantasmal Force question still applies though.

RAW?

The bridge becomes real, but is invisible to people other than your target (including you), because it is "perceivable only to the target", and nothing in Illusory Reality overrides that.

Yeah, it's absolutely bonkers.

[uraniumrooster]

There are two ways I can see ruling this:

Option 1: The phantasmal bridge becomes real, visible to everyone, for 1 minute.

Rationale:
When you initially cast Phantasmal Force on your target and make it see a bridge, it is the only creature that can see it, and the bridge is not real. However, immediately after casting you use your bonus action on the same turn to make it a real object. Illusory Reality doesn't stipulate that all the other parameters of the spell still apply, or that it is an illusion that simply appears real and stands up to physical interaction, just that it is a real object. Therefore, it has all the properties of any other real object for that minute - it's just like any other bridge.

Option 2: Illusory Reality doesn't work with Phantasmal objects.

Rationale:
While 5E doesn't make as strong of a distinction, past editions treated Illusions and Phantasms as two separate things. An illusion is a general sensory effect anyone can perceive, while a phantasm is a hallucination you force on one creature, existing only in that creature's mind. The text of Illusory Reality makes it clear that it works for illusory objects, while Phantasmal Force creates a "phantasmal object" in the mind of the target. Because phantasms directly modify the perception of one creature, rather than creating an actual illusion, there isn't an illusory object to weave your shadow magic into.

[CursedRhubarb]

Oh man. I had a thought. I don't know if it would fly though so let's see.

Since you target a creature with Phantasmal Force, would anything stop you from targeting yourself? If not, could you use this to say, make an illusionary door in a wall that only you could see but would be real? How about making a wall to block people coming after you that has an arrow slit you can see through? Could be countless uses, just never question if it is real or not so you don't accidentally make the Intel check and make it go away.

[LastCenturion]

-snip-

Option 2: Illusory Reality doesn't work with Phantasmal objects.

Rationale:
While 5E doesn't make as strong of a distinction, past editions treated Illusions and Phantasms as two separate things. An illusion is a general sensory effect anyone can perceive, while a phantasm is a hallucination you force on one creature, existing only in that creature's mind. The text of Illusory Reality makes it clear that it works for illusory objects, while Phantasmal Force creates a "phantasmal object" in the mind of the target. Because phantasms directly modify the perception of one creature, rather than creating an actual illusion, there isn't an illusory object to weave your shadow magic into.

That would be a good explanation, but Illusory Reality states that it must be "an illusion spell of 1st level or higher", which means any spell with the Illusion tag. Phantasmal Force is a second level illusion spell, by the PHB.

[Vogonjeltz]

- The bridge becomes real, but is only visible to the target. Anyone else can stand there, but sees nothing.

I'm not sure why you'd do it as it would defeat the purpose of the spell, but presumably it would be the last one, as being real doesn't make it perceptible to anyone else.

[uraniumrooster]

Oh man. I had a thought. I don't know if it would fly though so let's see.

Since you target a creature with Phantasmal Force, would anything stop you from targeting yourself? If not, could you use this to say, make an illusionary door in a wall that only you could see but would be real? How about making a wall to block people coming after you that has an arrow slit you can see through? Could be countless uses, just never question if it is real or not so you don't accidentally make the Intel check and make it go away.

There isn't anything stopping you from targeting yourself with Phantasmal Force that I can see, but since it creates a phantasm that only exists in your mind, you wouldn't actually gain any benefits from the examples you listed. If you didn't attempt to disbelieve it, you would continue to believe it to be real and justify any resulting weirdness. So, if you tried to walk through a phantasmal door, you'd still smack into the real wall, but you'd think maybe you just forgot to open the door or something. If you were hiding behind a phantasmal wall and got shot with an arrow, you'd think the enemy just got a lucky shot.

If you used Illusory Reality to make your phantasm real, then it would be down to the DM's ruling. Per my previous post, I think the most likely outcome would be either that it becomes fully real for everyone to see, or Illusory Reality just doesn't work on phantasms.

There are definitely uses for Phantasmal Force on a friendly target though. Since it's believable enough to deal damage, you might be able to convince your DM that it ought to be believable enough to provide healing as well. Cast a phantasm of a cleric on yourself (or, preferably, on the party tank) to give 1d6 HP each round. When I played an illusionist, I enjoyed having phantasms of my party members' deities appear to them and suggest certain courses of action.


That would be a good explanation, but Illusory Reality states that it must be "an illusion spell of 1st level or higher", which means any spell with the Illusion tag. Phantasmal Force is a second level illusion spell, by the PHB.

Yeah, I would lean toward option 1 for this reason, and just for the sake of simplicity. Since an Illusionist could achieve the same result (create an inanimate, non-magical object that can't harm anyone, then make it real) with a 1st-level slot and Silent Image, there aren't any game balance reasons why Illusory Reality shouldn't work with Phantasmal Force. It would even be detrimental, since you'd be giving up the spell's ability to deal damage to its target.

[LastCenturion]

I'm not sure why you'd do it as it would defeat the purpose of the spell, but presumably it would be the last one, as being real doesn't make it perceptible to anyone else.

Well presumably that's why you would do it. Think about it: You can make any object that can fit in a 10 foot cube real by casting a second level spell on yourself and voluntarily not attempting to disbelieve it. Even better, the item is invisible to everyone but behaves exactly like any object of its sort would. You want to stop the monsters from getting to you? Summon a brick wall directly in their path. As long as you concentrate, you get a free ten rounds of friends buffing you.

[Sneak Dog]

So let me get this straight:

Say, you want to mess with people. You cast phantasmal force on a leader of a group to make a bridge crossing a chasm and make it real with illusory reality. The leader fails an intelligence(investigation) check and as a result carefully makes its way across the bridge.

Now the fun begins.

He calls for his friends to make their way across the bridge. They respond there's no bridge, for the phantasmal force is only visible to the target. He responds they're blind and should just walk over. They cast detect magic on the supposedly invisible bridge.

They detect no magic.

There is an invisible bridge one can walk over. It has no magical aura. I just spent minutes laughing over this fact. This is amazing and I'm sad illusory reality is a 14th level feature.

The aura is on the leader, not the area.

[NNescio]

So let me get this straight:

Say, you want to mess with people. You cast phantasmal force on a leader of a group to make a bridge crossing a chasm and make it real with illusory reality. The leader fails an intelligence(investigation) check and as a result carefully makes its way across the bridge.

Now the fun begins.

He calls for his friends to make their way across the bridge. They respond there's no bridge, for the phantasmal force is only visible to the target. He responds they're blind and should just walk over. They cast detect magic on the supposedly invisible bridge.

They detect no magic.

There is an invisible bridge one can walk over. It has no magical aura. I just spent minutes laughing over this fact. This is amazing and I'm sad illusory reality is a 14th level feature.

The aura is on the leader, not the area.

This is like 3.5e's Invisible Spell Wall of Iron/Wall of Stone all over again.

[smcmike]

Great question.

[Vogonjeltz]

Well presumably that's why you would do it. Think about it: You can make any object that can fit in a 10 foot cube real by casting a second level spell on yourself and voluntarily not attempting to disbelieve it. Even better, the item is invisible to everyone but behaves exactly like any object of its sort would. You want to stop the monsters from getting to you? Summon a brick wall directly in their path. As long as you concentrate, you get a free ten rounds of friends buffing you.

Even assuming the phrase "a creature you can see" doesn't automatically disqualify self targeting, you would have to actually fail the saving throw, which you're more likely than not to succeed at.

And the object would definitely show up as magical, albeit invisible.

[jas61292]

Even assuming the phrase "a creature you can see" doesn't automatically disqualify self targeting, you would have to actually fail the saving throw, which you're more likely than not to succeed at.

Yeah, sadly there is no mechanic in 5e for choosing to intentionally fail a save. It would be a perfectly reasonable ruling for a DM to make, but it is not something allowed by RAW. But if your DM would allow that, as an illusionist, there is no question what 2nd level spell I would want to be able to cast for free if I ever get high enough level.

[Tanarii]

The spell is on the targeted creature, and the illusion is only in her mind. That means the real object is still only in her mind too, doesn't it?

Not sure how that works out rules wise. Possibly it's real for that creature, but not anyone else?

[LastCenturion]

So let me get this straight:

Say, you want to mess with people. You cast phantasmal force on a leader of a group to make a bridge crossing a chasm and make it real with illusory reality. The leader fails an intelligence(investigation) check and as a result carefully makes its way across the bridge.

Now the fun begins.

He calls for his friends to make their way across the bridge. They respond there's no bridge, for the phantasmal force is only visible to the target. He responds they're blind and should just walk over. They cast detect magic on the supposedly invisible bridge.

They detect no magic.

There is an invisible bridge one can walk over. It has no magical aura. I just spent minutes laughing over this fact. This is amazing and I'm sad illusory reality is a 14th level feature.

The aura is on the leader, not the area.

This is my new favorite thing. That answer is now the one I like. I love it. I mean, the bridge will only last one minute, and it can't be more than 10 feet long, but still. I can imagine a DM houseruling that you can improve the area by casting it as a higher level spell, or some similar method. Perhaps you have to research the higher level version separately? Or I could just content myself with a nonmagical invisible anvil dropping on people's heads.

[Sneak Dog]

This is my new favorite thing. That answer is now the one I like. I love it. I mean, the bridge will only last one minute, and it can't be more than 10 feet long, but still. I can imagine a DM houseruling that you can improve the area by casting it as a higher level spell, or some similar method. Perhaps you have to research the higher level version separately? Or I could just content myself with a nonmagical invisible anvil dropping on people's heads.

The rest of the gang probably build up courage and run over because the leader is the smart one. Depending on ruling, the rest of the gang either drops into the chasm screaming or is baffled as they run over an invisible, non-magical bridge.

Anvil won't hurt more than one target (the original target for 1d6). Illusory reality deals no direct damage. It does make for an interesting piece of conversation, as the target now lifts and hands the anvil over to someone else to proof he actually got hit by an anvil. And the other person then kind of has to agree, confusedly.

[Sabeta]

1) I would not allow a PC to intentionally fail the save on Phantasmal Force. It just plain doesn't make sense. You invoked the weave of magic to essentially imagine a bridge there, and you're going to now pretend that it's real so that you can MAKE it real? I'm sorry, I just cannot find any logic there.

2) The Illusion is not in real space, but in someone's mind. At least that's how I see it. Minor Illusion says you create the Illusion in a space and everyone who sees it must determine for themselves if it's real or not (which Illusory Reality lets you make real), Phantasmal Force says you make somebody see something somewhere. For this reason, I would also not allow Illusory Reality to be applied this way in order to create invisible bridges, or much of anything else.

I don't think this really qualifies as RAW, but that's how I would rule it.

[Tanarii]

I still think the funniest way to play it is real, but only for the target.

He runs across the real bridge, and anyone else trusting him just falls. :)

[LastCenturion]

1) I would not allow a PC to intentionally fail the save on Phantasmal Force. It just plain doesn't make sense. You invoked the weave of magic to essentially imagine a bridge there, and you're going to now pretend that it's real so that you can MAKE it real? I'm sorry, I just cannot find any logic there.

-snip-

Fair. I was thinking you would put it in the mind of the party's barbarian, who would probably not make an INT save anyways.

[RSP]

"A creature you can see" is fair game, RAW/RAI, to be yourself. Numerous Sage Advice posts have referenced you can do this.

[Sabeta]

"A creature you can see" is fair game, RAW/RAI, to be yourself. Numerous Sage Advice posts have referenced you can do this.

Using it on yourself is one thing, but it stands to reason that you would also know that what you put there isn't real; since you were the one who called it up in the first place.
Putting it into the mind of a PC Barbarian could work, but depending on how often you've tried this trick before I may go as far as to give him advantage on the save since he really should know better by that point.

My second point still stands though. It doesn't seem to have a clear RAW, but Phantasmal Force only exists in their mind rather than something you created in an unoccupied space. I would not allow this to become real, even to the person seeing it, but it still makes a good way to convince a warlord off a cliff.

[RSP]

Certainly this thread and previous posts shows a gap in RAW for PF and IR. However, nothing in IR states you have to believe the illusion is real before you can make it real. Whether or not someone, including the caster, would have passed a save to disbelieve an illusion is moot, in terms of RAW, as IR makes the illusion real. You could, I imagine, work it in that passing the save makes you believe it's an illusion even though IR has made it real.

As to the second point, RAW, it doesn't matter if the illusion is in one person's mind or for all to see, the spell fits the bill for IR (first level plus spell and an illusion), so an object can be made real for a min.

Obviously rule it as you please, and again, the combo is a bit muddled, but RAW it fits the criteria.

[uraniumrooster]

I still think the funniest way to play it is real, but only for the target.

He runs across the real bridge, and anyone else trusting him just falls. :)

I'm pretty sure "real, but only for the target" doesn't fit with any definition of "real" that I know. It is funny, but not how I'd rule it.


Using it on yourself is one thing, but it stands to reason that you would also know that what you put there isn't real; since you were the one who called it up in the first place.
Putting it into the mind of a PC Barbarian could work, but depending on how often you've tried this trick before I may go as far as to give him advantage on the save since he really should know better by that point.

My second point still stands though. It doesn't seem to have a clear RAW, but Phantasmal Force only exists in their mind rather than something you created in an unoccupied space. I would not allow this to become real, even to the person seeing it, but it still makes a good way to convince a warlord off a cliff.

I agree, and I'd be inclined to rule that a "phantasmal object" is not the same as an "illusory object" for the purposes of Illusory Reality. That's mostly relying on knowledge from older editions that made a stronger distinction between illusions and phantasms though, and isn't well supported by 5th Ed RAW.


Certainly this thread and previous posts shows a gap in RAW for PF and IR. However, nothing in IR states you have to believe the illusion is real before you can make it real. Whether or not someone, including the caster, would have passed a save to disbelieve an illusion is moot, in terms of RAW, as IR makes the illusion real. You could, I imagine, work it in that passing the save makes you believe it's an illusion even though IR has made it real.

Phantasmal Force reads, "The target must make an Intelligence saving throw. On a failed save, you create a phantasmal object, creature, or other visible phenomenon..."

The target must fail their initial save before you even have the opportunity to create the effect. If they succeed on the initial save, the spell doesn't do anything, and there's nothing for you to apply Illusory Reality to.

By contrast, Silent Image doesn't allow an initial save, it just creates an illusion everyone can see in the targeted area, which you can then turn into a real object. Even if there's a creature with True Sight standing there when you cast the illusion who automatically sees it for what it is, once you make it real it becomes real even for them.

[RSP]

Ah, I missed that part of PF. If it states a failed save is required to create the illusion then I'd imagine that would still be required prior to using IR. Thanks for pointing that out.

[Tanarii]

I'm pretty sure "real, but only for the target" doesn't fit with any definition of "real" that I know. It is funny, but not how I'd rule it.I know. But I still think of Phantasmal Force as a Phatasm in the mind of a creature, regardless of this editions specific rules. So this thread made my head hurt until this just popped out. :smallwink:

[LastCenturion]

Also: What does Illusory Reality do with Creation? (PHB, p.229) Does the created object become 'hyperreal'? What would that mean? Does it apply to no effect?

[uraniumrooster]

Also: What does Illusory Reality do with Creation? (PHB, p.229) Does the created object become 'hyperreal'? What would that mean? Does it apply to no effect?

Yeah, the object is already functionally real for a longer duration than Illusory Reality allows, so I would say nothing happens. Consider "Real" as being similar to a condition, like Blinded... a creature can be Blinded from multiple sources, but it doesn't make them any more Blind.

From a fluff-standpoint, Illusory Reality functions by weaving shadow magic into an illusion spell that normally doesn't use shadow magic. Creation is cast with shadow magic by default, so there's no reason to use Illusory Reality.