PDA

View Full Version : Optimization The Average Joe (commoner build) in an optimized Campaign world



jenotus
2016-08-11, 02:36 PM
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/f2/b9/22/f2b922c6569a61a04d23d92fc2d1930f.jpg


The Commoner Challenge

Dear friends,

here is an interesting idea, which I wanted to share and discuss with you.


Situation:
My DM is currently thinking about how to establish a low level group. Our main heroes are approaching their retirement levels as the majority of the group does want to play in the lower levels.

Complication:
In the current group, my character starts to overshadow other teammates, which is a combination of the following effects:
- Caster vs. non-caster in the endgame
- Highly optimized build vs. midly optimized companions
- More indepth strategic knowledge & optimized action economy

As a result, I am often receiving the soft/hard version of a ban-hammer.

Solution:
My DM is a great guy and we are all grown up, so we have a good resolution for most of these topics. However, in the low-level party, which is coming up, I wanted to reduce my starting position as much as possible to make the optimization challenge harder.

Personally, I like optimizing characters. It is one of the vital parts for me when playing DND. So I was thinking about creating a really tough challenge and still being able to survive.

The campaign-world of my DM is harsh, but fair. Above everything else, he values consistency and fairness. The monsters and the enemies are fairly optimized tho, just to give you an understanding that fights are not a walk in the park.


Challenge:
Survive an optimized campaign with an Average Joe Character. Literally someone, who started his life as a farmer and just doesn't have the means to do anything else.
Also, be meaningful in an moderately optimized Tier3 campaign setting. (In other words you have to carry your own weight)

All material is allowed (Dnd 3.5). Some 3rd-party (if DM is cool with it). We are playing with mild houserules, the most important of which is the pathfinder feat progression.

Details:
- PHB Races only
- No Templates
- No Buyoff, bloodlines
- 10 on every stat (12pt. buy)
- Must take 4 flaws & gains only 2 feats
- No Class allowed (this includes all NPC classes except the commoner, I also excluded racial progressions to be strict)
- No Prestige classes allowed
- No companions whatsoever (Leaderships, Cohorts, purchased familiars, pets, familiars/psi-crystals)

Task:
- No one-trick pony build (i.e. diplomancer / handle animal)
- Shall only use items found in the game (no purchasing)
- Starting Gold 0!gp


Player can decide:
- Feats
- How to distribute Attribute Points
- How to survive with the tools at hand
- How to interact within and outside of the combat


Currently Standing build (if you want to provide your own build, please feel free to do so):


Idea of the Build:
The most viable race appeared Half-Elfs, because they a) are the only ones that received a buff (extra feat), but also because I tried to use the paragon to get at least partially around the commoner only rule. Was thinking about savage species racial progressions as well, but I only have the PHB races at hand, so prolly this is out of reach.

In terms of build, I took highly flexible feats and alot from the MoI as it makes me independent from what I am going to find in the game.


Here we go:
Race: Half-Elf*
Half-Elf Commoner 20

The most viable race appeared Half-Elfs, because they a) are the only ones that received a buff (extra feat).
In terms of build, I took highly flexible feats and alot from the MoI as it makes me independent from what I am going to find in the game. Additionally I went down the Dragonmarks route to gain special abilities and Quicken them in order to be effective in the action economy.

STATs:
Stats 12pt (no score lower than 10)
STR 10 (8)
DEX 10
CON 10 (5 level) (6item)
INT 10
WIS 10
CHA 10

AC: 10 (+ 0NA) + 2 Shield + 4 armor + 0 dex - 1 flaw = 15AC
BAB: +0.33

RACIAL ABILITIES:
- Bonus Feat (Houseruled): My DM gives Half-Elfs the human bonus feat
- Medium: As Medium creatures, half-elves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
- Half-elf base land speed is 30 feet.
- Immunity to sleep spells and similar magical effects, and a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against enchantment spells or effects.
- Low-Light Vision: A half-elf can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. She retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
- +1 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks.
- +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy and Gather Information checks.
- Elven Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-elf is considered an elf.

FLAWs:
- Noncombatant (-2 melee att)
- Inattentive (-4 Listen/Spot)
- Pathetic (STR)
- Vulnerable (-1AC)


Feat Progression (extended):
1: Aberrant Dragonmark (Shield 1/day)
1 (bonus): Master of Poisons (swift action poison, poison training) --> Retrained later: Mark of Stars (never surprised, +2AC, +2refl)
1 (Flaw): Aberrant Dragonmark Gift (Shield -> 3/day)
1 (Flaw): Flexible Mind (Iaiujitsu Focus and Use Magic Device as class skills)
3: Quicken Dragonmark (Least Dragonmarks as swift)
5: Quicken Dragonmark (Lesser Dragonmarks as swift)
7: Lesser Aberrant Dragonmark (Sleet Storm 3/day, Shield 4/day)
9: Greater Aberrant Dragonmark (Cloudkill 3/day, Sleet Storm 4/day, Shield 5/day)
11: Quicken Dragonmark (Greater Dragonmarks as swift)
13: Toughness* (reworked, gives way more HP)
15: Steadfast Determination
17: Toughness* (reworked, gives way more HP)
19: Toughness* (reworked, gives way more HP)


Skills:
Iaiujitsu Focus
Use Magic Device

+ (if possible)
Craft (Basket Weaving)
Craft (Poisonmaking)
Craft (Bowmaking)


Equipment:
Shapesand (Sandstorm - for mundane items) 100gp
Wand Champer (DS, p34) x2 200gp
Weapon Capsule Container, Triple (CA) 450gp
Chronocharm of the Grand MAster (MIC) 500gp
Chronocharm of the Horizonwarlker (MIC) 500gp
Lesser Crystal of Return 600gp
Amber Amulet of Vermin (MIC) 700gp
Belt of Healing (MIC) 750gp
Hand of the Mage (DMG) 900gp
Quiver of Ehlonna (DMG) 1.800gp
Heward's Handy Haversack (MIC) 2.000gp
Bracers of Entangling Blast (MIC) 2.000gp
Cloak of the Elvenkind (DMG) 2.000gp
Lesser Shadow Hands (TOB) 3.000gp
Lesser Rod of Sculpt Spell (MIC) 3.000gp
Crown of Charisma (+2) 4.000gp
Gauntlets of War (CC, +3 dmg) 4.000gp
Chain Shirt (+1, Ghost ward) (DR crystal) 4.500gp
Buckler (+1, Fearsome armor) (Arrow Defl) 4.500gp
Ring of Forcewall (MIC) 5.100gp
Eversmoking Bottle (MIC) 5.400gp
Bag of Tricks (TAN) (DMG) 6.300gp
Ring of Arming (MIC) + Mountain Plate/Tower S 6.600gp
Ring of Mystic Defiance (CHa/2 to Fort&3/day 10) 7.500gp
Blue Ice Short Sword (+1, Stunning Surge) 8.500gp
Contineous Alter Self Item 18.000gp


Poisons:
- 4gp: Sleep-Smoke (Waterdeep, City of Splendors Pg. 152. Unconsciousness)
- 6,6gp: Stun Gas (A&EG 37, Stuns)
- 8,3gp: Darkeye (Sharn, City of Towers; Paralysis)
- 12,5gp: Drow poison (Core; Unconsciousness)
- (free): Yew Poison (DC 13, 1d2 Con damage/2d6 Con damage.)


Scrolls / Wands (2-3/50 charges):

0 (xgp):
1 (xgp): Alarm, expeditious retreat, Featherfall, Protection from Evil,Resurgence, Remove Paralysis, silent image, Stand, Spymaster's Coin, wall of Smoke
2 (xgp): Command Undead, Ghost Candle, Fire Trap, Glitterdust, Lesser Restauration, Invisibility, See Invisibility, Silence
3 (xgp): Greater Mirror Image, Mass Resist Energy, Neutralize Poison


Wands:
0 (325gp):
1 (750gp): Enlarge Person, Grease, Blockade, Ray of Enfeeblement
2 (4500gp): Whirling Attack
3 (10.850gp):


Ethernal Wands:
0 (360gp): Detect Magic, Deathwatch
1 (720gp): Benign Transposition, Fell Weakened Acid Splash, Swift Invisibility,
2 (4320gp): Web, Wings of Cover
3 (10.800gp):



Level by Level analysis of the build:

HP: 4 AC: 10+4(shield)+2-4(armor if you can find some)-1(flaw)= 15-17

Situation: You are fragile, positioning will be key. The only noticable skills are IF and UMD, both of which are not going to be used.
Put at least 1 point into Craft (poisonmaking) and craft (bowmaking), this way we get a weapon for free and some solid poisons.

Combat Tactic: Stay in the backline, use your Poison Master + whatever poison you have available (prolly just Yew Poison). 1 attack per round, hopefully on targets, which are not engaged in melee combat with 1d8 + poison is not too bad.
If you can loot a melee weapon, get it (preferably a dagger/short-sword). Stay away from melee, except for ambushes maybe, where IF could come handy (from level 3 onwards, because you need 1 BAB to draw the weapon as part of your movement).


Level 5:
Items: -depending on DM loot, but prolly some magic scrolls/wands, which are usable-, first stat item should be +2con to improve surviability, additionally some of the cheaper items in the list could be yours (belt of healing, chronocharms, shapesand), maybe it is worthwhile investing into an amulet of tears to improve early game survivability. Also, try to gain your hands on a reduce Person wand.
Feats: Retrained the Poison master, as its usefulness is slowly falling off now

Skills Ranks:
Craft (Poisonmaking) 1
Craft (Basketweaving) 1
Craft (Bowmaking) 0 (reskilled)

UMD 8
IF 6

HP: 19(31) AC: 10 + 4(shield) + 4(armor) + 2mark +1 size +1 dex -1flaw = 21

Situation: The build is developing good into the defensive direction, the offense is prolly at their weakest point. The bitter truth is, that the 1d8 + poison fall off quiet fast. So we will need to get some more damage.

Combat Tactic: Depending on the group setup, try using daggers to throw them. Arguably, since daggers are also melee weapons, they qualify for IF. At this level we will get +2-3d6, so the result would be 1d4+3d6+poison, which is not great compared to optimzed builds, but also not horrible.
The major other focus should be battlefield control. Benign Transposition, Grease, Silent Image as well as Debuffing (ray of Enfeeblement) spring to mind.


Level 10:
Items: the build should now have most of the loot pointed out. Assumption is a +4 con item, focus in constitution with the attribute points and at least some of the spells on wands.

Skills Ranks:
Craft (Poisonmaking) 1
Craft (Basketweaving) 1
Craft (Bowmaking) 0 (reskilled)

UMD 13
IF 11

HP: 57(69) AC: 10 + 4(shield) + 9(armor) + 2mark + 1 size + 2 dex + 8(NA) + 1dodge -1flaw = 36 (assuming +1 full-plate, reduce person, alter self)
HP with toughness*x2: 87(99)

Situation: This is where the main part of the build should play out. The levels past 5 have developped a stronger offense potential (see tactics) and the commoner should now be able to meet both the UMD and IF skill check quiet regularely. With the low amount of hit points, it is still pretty fragile - if you have a houseruling for toughness like we do, I think its worthwhile trading out some of the mark / quickness feats for 1-2x toughness.

Combat Tactic: The build relies on Whirling blade + IF to deal damage to a larger group of enemies. The damage with an average roll of IF should be in the order of magnitude +4-6d6 and with shadow stance another 2d6 would be applicable. So normal attacks with the Whirling Blade should be +6-8d8 multiple times per day.
The core of the build however is the usage of Quickened Sleet storm + Cloud kill, which can be applied multiple times per day and hence should be the main focus in most of the combats. Combining both aspects together, the build should do reasonably well. Also Battlefield control through the Eternal Wands should help further.







Idea of the Build:
Update: The build uses acquired templates to accumulate further power. It starts as a normal commoner and will then try to become undead as well as using spell-stiched and sculpt self feats to accumulate additional resources/ skills. This build will have an inherant xp-disadvantage during the play-time, hence I think it will require some good game-knowledge in terms of how far can you fall behind and still be useful. The xp-difference will shrink over time, but it will take some "risk-vs-reward" calculations.


Race: Half-Elf*
Half-Elf Commoner 20

The most viable race appeared Half-Elfs, because they a) are the only ones that received a buff (extra feat).

STATs:
Stats 12pt (no score lower than 10)
STR 10 (+1 ScultS) (+4 graft) (+4 corpsecraft)
DEX 10
CON 10 (8)(- later)
INT 10
WIS 10 (5 level) (6item) (+2 SculptSelf)
CHA 10 (+2 SculptSelf)

AC: 10 (+ 0NA) + 2 Shield + 4 armor + 0 dex - 1 flaw = 15AC
BAB: +0.33

RACIAL ABILITIES:
- Bonus Feat (Houseruled): My DM gives Half-Elfs the human bonus feat
- Medium: As Medium creatures, half-elves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
- Half-elf base land speed is 30 feet.
- Immunity to sleep spells and similar magical effects, and a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against enchantment spells or effects.
- Low-Light Vision: A half-elf can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. She retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
- +1 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks.
- +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy and Gather Information checks.
- Elven Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-elf is considered an elf.

FLAWs:
- Noncombatant (-2 melee att)
- Inattentive (-4 Listen/Spot)
- Pathetic (CON)
- Vulnerable (-1AC)


Feat Progression (extended):
1: Aberrant Dragonmark (Shield 1/day)
1 (bonus): Master of Poisons (swift action poison, poison training) --> Retrained later: Sculpt Self Feat
1 (Flaw): Aberrant Dragonmark Gift (Shield -> 3/day)
1 (Flaw): Flexible Mind (Iaiujitsu Focus and Use Magic Device as class skills)
3: Quicken Dragonmark (Least Dragonmarks as swift)
5: Quicken Dragonmark (Lesser Dragonmarks as swift)
7: Lesser Aberrant Dragonmark (Sleet Storm 3/day, Shield 4/day)
9: Greater Aberrant Dragonmark (Cloudkill 3/day, Sleet Storm 4/day, Shield 5/day)
11: Graft Flesh --> Retrained later into: Quicken Dragonmark (Greater Dragonmarks as swift)
13: Mark of Stars (never surprised, +2AC, +2refl)
15: Zen Archery (Ranged attack via WIS)
17: Toughness* (reworked, gives way more HP)
19: Toughness* (reworked, gives way more HP)


Skills:
Iaiujitsu Focus
Use Magic Device

+ (if possible)
Craft (Basket Weaving)
Craft (Poisonmaking)
Craft (Bowmaking)


Template Progression:
a) Movement towards undead:
- Level 3-4 become a necropolitan (-3.000gp, -1 level, -1.000xp)
(gain: D12 hitdice, undead immunities, darkvision 60ft., +2 turn resist)
- Corpsecrafter benefits (+4 str, +2HP/HD) (costs probably extra GP)
- Desecration benefits (+2 HP/HD) (scroll cost 200gp)

b) Sculpt Self (improvements throughout the game, in order of importance):
Prior to spell-stitching
- Flame Focus (Kindled Creature, +60ft low light, 5 fire resist) [1.600 xp]
- Gear Focus (Gadget Creature, +1 WIS, +4 knowledge) [5.628 xp]
- Flame Focus (Ember Creature, Produce Flame at/will) [7.520 xp]

After spell-stitching:
- Flame Focus (Fiery Creature, +1 Charisma, 1/day wall of fire) [7.516 xp]
- Flame Focus (Inferno Creature, 1/day Fire Shield) [4.480 xp]
- Gear Focus (Clockwork Creature, +1 CHa, +2 Natural Armor) [8.700 xp]
- Soul Focus (Blessed Creature, +1 CHA, +4 sense mot/listen/spot) [5.884 xp]
- Soul Focus (Sacred Creature, +1 STR, +4 Will saves) [7.631 xp]
- Soul Focus (Hallowed Creature, +1 WIS, 3/day Searing Light) [11.980xp]
- Wind Focus (Stirred Creature, 1/day Wind wall) [4.032 xp]
- Wind Focus (Zephyr Creature, Elec resist 5, whisp wind 3/day) [3.391 xp]
- Wind Focus (Gale Creautre, Wind walk 1/day) [9.504 xp]


c) Stitch when you have 19wisdom
- 19 wis can be acquired by level 8 (+6 item, +2 level, +1 sculpt self)
- Acquire the Spellstitched template (will cost 1.000gp and 9.500xp)
- Additional costs through scrolls, which you might need to provide (~5-10k gp, depending on what the caster has at hand)
- Benefits (DR 10/magic, Spell resist 16, Turn resist +2, +2 all saves)

- Potential Spells:
1 (4/day) (2known): Grease x2 (PHB), Ray of Enfeeblement x2 (PHB)
2 (4/day) (2known): Ghoul Glyph x2 (LM), Wings of Cover x2 (RotD)
3 (2/day) (2known): Dimension Step (PHB2), Bands of Steel (SC)
4 (2/day) (2known): Dimension Door (PHB), Otiluke's Resilient Sphere (PHB)
5 (2/day) (2known): Teleport (PHB), Magic Jar (PHB)
6 (1/day) (1known): Animate Dread Warrior (UE)


d) Gaining Undead Grafts
- Additionally spend Gold to gain improvements as undead grafts
- If possible via Graft Flesh Feat + a later retraining to free up the feat slot

Grafts:
- Bonemail (+2 Natural Armor) [ 8.000gp, 640xp]
- Bodak's Eye (1/day death gaze) [12.500gp,1000xp]
- Eye of Flame (1/day fireball) [ 5.400gp, 432xp]
- Mgrg's Tongue (paralyzing sec. attack) [12.000gp, 960xp]
- Enervating Arm (+4str, 2/day enerv touch) [20.000gp,1600xp]
+ Ghostly arm (ranged touch attacks) [ 3.000gp, 240xp]




Equipment:
Shapesand (Sandstorm - for mundane items) 100gp
Wand Champer (DS, p34) x2 200gp
Weapon Capsule Container, Triple (CA) 450gp
Chronocharm of the Grand MAster (MIC) 500gp
Chronocharm of the Horizonwarlker (MIC) 500gp
Lesser Crystal of Return 600gp
Amber Amulet of Vermin (MIC) 700gp
Belt of Healing (MIC) 750gp
Hand of the Mage (DMG) 900gp
Quiver of Ehlonna (DMG) 1.800gp
Heward's Handy Haversack (MIC) 2.000gp
Bracers of Entangling Blast (MIC) 2.000gp
Cloak of the Elvenkind (DMG) 2.000gp
Lesser Shadow Hands (TOB) 3.000gp
Lesser Rod of Sculpt Spell (MIC) 3.000gp
Crown of Wisdom (+6) 36.000gp
Gauntlets of War (CC, +3 dmg) 4.000gp
Chain Shirt (+1, Ghost ward) (DR crystal) 4.500gp
Buckler (+1, Fearsome armor) (Arrow Defl) 4.500gp
Ring of Forcewall (MIC) 5.100gp
Eversmoking Bottle (MIC) 5.400gp
Bag of Tricks (TAN) (DMG) 6.300gp
Ring of Arming (MIC) + Mountain Plate/Tower S 6.600gp
Ring of Mystic Defiance (CHa/2 to Fort&3/day 10) 7.500gp
Blue Ice Short Sword (+1, Stunning Surge) 8.500gp
Contineous Alter Self Item 18.000gp


Poisons:
- 4gp: Sleep-Smoke (Waterdeep, City of Splendors Pg. 152. Unconsciousness)
- 6,6gp: Stun Gas (A&EG 37, Stuns)
- 8,3gp: Darkeye (Sharn, City of Towers; Paralysis)
- 12,5gp: Drow poison (Core; Unconsciousness)
- (free): Yew Poison (DC 13, 1d2 Con damage/2d6 Con damage.)


Scrolls / Wands (2-3/50 charges):

0 (xgp):
1 (xgp): Alarm, expeditious retreat, Featherfall, Protection from Evil,Resurgence, Remove Paralysis, silent image, Stand, Spymaster's Coin, wall of Smoke
2 (xgp): Command Undead, Ghost Candle, Fire Trap, Glitterdust, Lesser Restauration, Invisibility, See Invisibility, Silence
3 (xgp): Greater Mirror Image, Mass Resist Energy, Neutralize Poison


Wands:
0 (325gp):
1 (750gp): Enlarge Person, Grease, Blockade, Ray of Enfeeblement
2 (4500gp): Whirling Attack
3 (10.850gp):


Ethernal Wands:
0 (360gp): Detect Magic, Deathwatch
1 (720gp): Benign Transposition, Fell Weakened Acid Splash, Swift Invisibility,
2 (4320gp): Web, Wings of Cover
3 (10.800gp):



Spells at the disposal within this build:

Standard Action:
1 (4/day) (2known): Grease x2 (PHB), Ray of Enfeeblement x2 (PHB)
2 (4/day) (2known): Ghoul Glyph x2 (LM), Wings of Cover x2 (RotD)
3 (2/day) (2known): Dimension Step (PHB2), Bands of Steel (SC)
4 (2/day) (2known): Dimension Door (PHB), Otiluke's Resilient Sphere (PHB)
5 (2/day) (2known): Teleport (PHB), Magic Jar (PHB)
6 (1/day) (1known): Animate Dread Warrior (UE)

(at will) Produce Flame, Paralyzing Attack (Tongue)
(1/day) Wall of Fire, Fire Shield, Wind Wall, Wind Walk, Death Gaze, Fireball
(2/day) Enervating Attack (ranged ghost att)
(3/day) Searing Light, Whispering Wind

Swift Action:
(Cloudkill 3/day, Sleet Storm 4/day, Shield 5/day)


Level by Level analysis of the build:

HP: 4 AC: 10+4(shield)+2-4(armor if you can find some)-1(flaw)= 15-17

Situation: You are fragile, positioning will be key. The only noticable skills are IF and UMD, both of which are not going to be used.
Put at least 1 point into Craft (poisonmaking) and craft (bowmaking), this way we get a weapon for free and some solid poisons.

Combat Tactic: Stay in the backline, use your Poison Master + whatever poison you have available (prolly just Yew Poison). 1 attack per round, hopefully on targets, which are not engaged in melee combat with 1d8 + poison is not too bad.
If you can loot a melee weapon, get it (preferably a dagger/short-sword). Stay away from melee, except for ambushes maybe, where IF could come handy (from level 3 onwards, because you need 1 BAB to draw the weapon as part of your movement).


Level 5:
Items: Your first major transformation should be done by this point. You invested the first money into becoming a Necropolitan, gaining a significant boost in survivability. Make sure to get the corpsecrafter and desecration benefits as well. With this, many of the low-level problems should be solved due to undead immunities and the significant higher surviability.
Feats: Retrained the Poison master, gain sculpt self and start getting the first sculpts (+wis is important)

Skills Ranks:
Craft (Poisonmaking) 1
Craft (Basketweaving) 1
Craft (Bowmaking) 0 (reskilled)

UMD 8
IF 6

HP: 12(level 1)+26(lvl 2-5)+20(4hp/hd)+12(temp)=58(70) AC: 10 + 4(shield) + 4(armor) + 2mark +1 size +1 dex -1flaw = 21

Situation: The build is developing good into the defensive direction, the offense is prolly at their weakest point. The bitter truth is, that the 1d8 + poison fall off quiet fast. So we will need to get some more damage. One way to counter this situation is to gain the Flame Focus (Ember Creature) for an at/will Produce Flame ability, also the Eye of Flame Graft for a 1/day 10d6 fireball can help. The next big investment should be the +6WIS item to ensure that you can get spell-stitched asap. You should be able to achieve this between level 7-9. Afterwards you can stay there (xp-wise) and apply more Grafts / Sculpts.

Combat Tactic: Depending on the group setup, try using daggers to throw them. Arguably, since daggers are also melee weapons, they qualify for IF. At this level we will get +2-3d6, so the result would be 1d4+3d6+poison, which is not great compared to optimzed builds, but also not horrible.
The major other focus should be battlefield control. Benign Transposition, Grease, Silent Image as well as Debuffing (ray of Enfeeblement) spring to mind.


Level 10:
Please note: This point will probably be a bit later in the game. Due to the xp disadvantage, it is likely that some of the other PCs are already at level 12.
Items: the build should now have most of the loot pointed out. Also you will have some of the major Undead Grafts as well as some of the Sculpt Self improvements (talk to the DM if you can get a thought bottle or something alike to reduce the XP costs)

Skills Ranks:
Craft (Poisonmaking) 1
Craft (Basketweaving) 1
Craft (Bowmaking) 0 (reskilled)

UMD 13
IF 11

HP: 12(level 1)+59(lvl 2-10)+40(4hp/hd)+12(temp)=121(132) AC: 10 + 4(shield) + 9(armor) + 2mark + 1 size + 2 dex + 4(NA) + 1 dodge +5 wis -1flaw = 37 (assuming +1 full-plate, reduce person, monks belt)

Situation: This is where the main part of the build should play out. With most of the parts of this build coming together, you should be a the peak of your power. Having alot of spells from level 1-6 at the disposal as well as the quickened dragonmarks will give you enough firepower for 2-3 encounters per day. On top of that, the options for addtiaional grafts as well as sculpt-selfs will add to the resists, the available spells and thus the versatility. The build has a kit for mainly battle-field control, damage as well as debuffing, which should work for nearly every encounter.

Combat Tactic:
a) Spells & Combos: The build is set-up for a nice array of spell combinations (i.e. Cloudkill + Resilient Sphere, Ghoul Glyph + Sleet Storm), good battlefield control (Grease, Ghoul Glyph, Bands of Steel, Resilient Sphere, Sleet Storm) as well as individually strong spells (Magic Jar, Animate Dread Warrior) plus defensive Spells (Wings of Cover, Shield, Wind Wall) and high mobility/replacment spells (i.e. Benign Transposition(UMD), Dimension Step, Dimension Door, Teleport)

b) The build can also rely on Whirling blade + IF to deal damage to a larger group of enemies. The damage with an average roll of IF should be in the order of magnitude +6d6 and with shadow stance another 2d6 would be applicable. So normal attacks with the Whirling Blade should be +8d8 multiple times per day. Further noticable damaging attacks would be the Wall of Fire, Fireball, Death Gaze, Searing Light as well as UMD'able spells to deal damage.









Idea: Basically becoming a "divine caster" and then using Nightsticks and Extra Turning plus the Divine Feats to gain one-time effects

Issue: It is very feat intensive and the effects are mediocre due to the low effective level, but it is a great idea nevertheless

God Touched (Dragon 305) - patron deity
Divine Channeler (Dragon 305) - God Touched, patron deity
Minor Divine Spellcaster (Dragon 305) - Charisma 13, Divine Channeler, patron deity

Divine Feats
Domain Feats



Idea: Basically become a very basic arcane caster and then get higher level casting through feats and a theoretical optimization

Issue: My DM wouldn't allow it, so I was not following this path. Elsewise an excellent idea.


1 - Magical Training (Player's Guide to Faerun) - 1st level only, regional feat.
Gaining higher Spell slots (see here (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=135.0) at reply #3)

Extra Slot (Complete Arcane) - caster level 4
Extra Spell (Complete Arcane) - caster level 3
Practiced Spellcaster (Complete Arcane) - Spellcraft 4




Idea: Basically copy the standard ranged attack build of the MoI. This is equipment independent and the attack vs. Touch-AC is great, because our offense is not on par with what we would normally see.

Issue: It is feat intensive and the damage falls off quiet quick. In the early levels, this is definitely still a viable strategy, the question arises around the mid- and late-game, where the damage is no longer on-par.

Shape Soulmeld (Dissolving Spittle) CON13
Expand Soulmeld Capacity (Dissolving Spittle) CON15, level2
Bonus Essentia CON13, level 6
Open Greater Chakra (Throat) for Dissolving Spittle CON16, level 18

+

Hidden Talent (Any power)
Point Blank Shot
Psionic Shot
Greater Psionic Shot



Idea: This route includes the dragonmark feat chains and gives you a limited set of SLAs to work with. The storm route fits the purpose of what a "storm-based" character could do pretty well.

Issue: not much, it is amongst the strongest routes that I have found, specifically since the abilities can be quickened and are quiet impactful. The build lacks versitility unfortunately (UMD is needed).

Least Dragonmark (Storm - Gust of Wind 1/day)
Lesser Dragonmark (Storm - Sleet Storm 1/day, Gust of Wind 2/day) 9 ranks in any two skills
Greater Dragonmark (Storm - Control Wind 1/day, Sleet Storm 2/day, Gust of Wind 3/day) 12 ranks in any two skills
Dragonmark Visionary (Storm - Storm touch* 2/day, Control Wind 2/day, Sleet Storm 2/day, Gust of Wind 3/day)
Mark of the Dauntless (Immunity stun/daze + removal)
Mark of Stars (never surprised, +2AC, +2refl)
Quicken Dragonmark x3




Idea: Get higher level casting through the usage of Extra slot and Extra Spell feats.

Problem: Will work out in the VERY late game / maybe epic game. Will cause discussions with the DM. Defeats the purpose of "being useful" during the campaign, as I would be a slacker for 12-15 levels.

1 Magical Training
h Practiced Spellcaster
t eldritch corruption
3 heighten spell
6 sanctum spell
9 earth sense
12 earth spell
15 extra slot
18 extra spell






Feedback and Improvements / Suggestions are highly welcome.
How would you approach this challenge with the commoner?

Best regards,
jeno

daremetoidareyo
2016-08-11, 02:46 PM
Why mysticism domain when you can rebuke constructs or shape sand?

Survivor prestige class (SS) can be taken from Commoner. Not sure if that is prohibited.

Bind vestige?

jenotus
2016-08-11, 02:52 PM
Why mysticism domain when you can rebuke constructs or shape sand?

Survivor prestige class (SS) can be taken from Commoner. Not sure if that is prohibited.

Bind vestige?


Hi mate,

thanks for the idea:
Which alternative domains would you prefer? I was taking a domain with a charisma synnergy, although I gotta admit that others looked good as well.

The Survivor PRC unfortunately is forbidden, although it would be a great choice, I was originally thinking about it :)

Bind vestige is a good idea, looked into it, but really didnt find anything great. Even with the feat-chain Bind vestige, Practiced Binder and Greater Bind, the best I was about to find was the trick to spy via a bird (which is cool, don't get me wrong).

Endarire
2016-08-11, 03:46 PM
I'm not seeing how a strict Commoner build is fun.

Still, Vow of Poverty is a thing. And, if your GM is OK with it, Wild Cohort (feat).

jenotus
2016-08-11, 04:04 PM
I'm not seeing how a strict Commoner build is fun.

Still, Vow of Poverty is a thing. And, if your GM is OK with it, Wild Cohort (feat).


Hi mate,

thanks for the tip with the VoP feats, I was indeed thinking about that. It would however take away the option to use magic device, which I still think could be a valuable proposition to be useful for a party.

Wild Cohort unfortunately doesn't work, because it is an additional character (not part of the challenge).


Explanation about what is fun with a commoner build:
My explanation is of course subjective, but some of the reasoning would be.

- I am enjoying a very challenging campaign, where survival is not given, but must be earned

- Commoner undoubtfully is the weakest class and hence presents the total average of the population. Playing such a character and tagging along a "heroic" group offers a new perspective.

- Keeping pace with others, who have much more at their disposal (class abilities, spells, more stats, items, etc.) is a great way to challenge yourself.

- I won't be able to make my party "more optimized", some of the players just want to do their thing. I am really enjoying optimized builds, so I need to take something really bad in order to end up at the same level.

- I never played a commoner and it seems like a fun experience (that I would otherwise be missing).


Hope that explained it :)
Cheers

Malroth
2016-08-11, 04:15 PM
Half elf with the mark of storms feat chain

thorr-kan
2016-08-11, 04:33 PM
Might be able to do something with the Magical Training/Precocious Apprentice feat chain:
1 - Magical Training (Player's Guide to Faerun) - 1st level only, regional feat.
1 - Precocious Apprentice (Complete Arcane) - 1st level only, caster level 1.
1 - Reserve Feat (Complete Mage) - spell of 2nd level or higher

Extra Slot (Complete Arcane) - caster level 4
Extra Spell (Complete Arcane) - caster level 3
Improved Familiar (DMG1) - caster level 3+
Keeper of Forbidden Knowledge (FC1) - Int 14 - Spellcraft and Knowledge (the planes) are class skills
Obtain Familiar (Complete Arcane) - Knowledge (arcana) 4, caster level 3
Practiced Spellcaster (Complete Arcane) - Spellcraft 4

Obtain Familiar and Imp. Familiar are off the table by your house rules, but the rest could be entertaining.

thorr-kan
2016-08-11, 04:37 PM
Might be able to do something with turn/rebuke undead and divine or domain feats.

God Touched (Dragon 305) - patron deity
Divine Channeler (Dragon 305) - God Touched, patron deity
Minor Divine Spellcaster (Dragon 305) - Charisma 13, Divine Channeler, patron deity

Divine Feats
Domain Feats

Ooh, I know! Dragonfire Channeling. Spend a turn attempt to do 1d6 fire damage per 4 cleric equivalent levels is overpowering! (Yes, I'm being sarcastic.)

thorr-kan
2016-08-11, 04:40 PM
And then there's the Commoners Handbook. Always an entertaining read.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?232822-The-Commoner-Handbook

MisterKaws
2016-08-11, 05:17 PM
Precocious Apprentice is Wiz/Sorc only, so it's out.

Honestly, I can't see a way to make a commoner-only build useful in combat at all. My best efforts to optimize a commoner NPC made him able to fight on par with things that had half its level in CR, and that was only because that guy had epic NPC WBL.

With PF feats, I could see you being a bit better than Bob(my commoner), but still, you'll mostly be a dead weight in combat, unless you cheese the hell out of some stuff.

I'll try to get something usable, and then update this again after a while.

ShurikVch
2016-08-11, 05:20 PM
There, just in case, link to The Commoner Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?232822-The-Commoner-Handbook)

Do you familiar with Nodwick (http://comic.nodwick.com/)?
Titular character there is (abnormal carrying capacity aside) is pretty unremarkable, so may count as a Commoner
http://static4.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_small/8/85763/2670388-nodwick_1.jpg



Challenge:
============
Survive an optimized campaign with an Average Joe Character. Literally someone, who started his life as a farmer and just doesn't have the means to do anything else.According to Nodwick, all you will need for that is friendly Cleric and some duct tape :smallwink:


Ideas I have come up so far:I see there some problems...
Can I point them?

Half-Elf Paragon 3/ Human Paragon 3/ Commoner 14Ahem...
- No Class allowed (this includes all NPC classes except the commoner)



Feat Progression (extended):
=================================
...
1 (bonus): Expand Soulmelt Capacity (Dissolving Spittle)You can't take that feat: you don't have neither Con 15, nor meldshaper level 1st

1 (Flaw): Shape Soulmelt (Dissolving Spittle) :smallamused:You can't take it: requirement is Con 13

3 (Hu-Para): Bonus EssentiaYou can't take that feat: you don't have neither Con 13, nor character level 6th.

3: Shape Soulmelt (Airstep sandels)You can't take it: requirement is Con 13

7: Bind Least Chakra (Necrocarnum Circlet)What's this? :smallconfused:

11: Martial Stance (Assasins Stance)
13: Open Lesser Chakra (Phase Cloak)How the heck you get feats on 11th and 13th levels? :smallconfused:
Also, Open Lesser Chakra required Con 15

19: Bind Greater Chakra (Dissolving Spittle)What's this? :smallconfused:


Warbeast Rhinoceros (MM2) 750gpAhem...

- No companions whatsoever (Leaderships, Cohorts, purchased familiars, pets, familiars/psi-crystals)

MisterKaws
2016-08-11, 06:34 PM
So... I give up. Your restrictions are way too tight. In fact, you yourself have broken a couple of them, as pointed out by ShurikVch.

Instead, I'll just point out some of your mistakes, just so you can try and make something useful out of that:


1 (bonus): Expand Soulmeld Capacity (Dissolving Spittle)
1 (Flaw): Shape Soulmeld (Dissolving Spittle)
3: Shape Soulmelt (Airstep Sandals)
3 (Hu-Para): Bonus Essentia
7: BindOpen Least Chakra (Necrocarnum Circlet)
13: Open Lesser Chakra (Phase Cloak)
19: BindOpen Greater Chakra (Dissolving Spittle)

As pointed out, you don't qualify for any of those, both because of the Con requirements, level requirements, alignment requirements(you can't bind necrocarnum unless you're evil or have Necrocarnum Acolyte, and even then, you can't be good). Also, you don't tie Open(not Bind) X Chakra feats to Soulmelds, you tie them to their respective chakras. Aaaaaand you don't even have Shape Soulmeld(Necrocarnum Circlet) to bind it. Edit: You also don't qualify for OLC(Phase Cloak), first because you tie that to a Chakra, and second because you don't have Shape Soulmeld(Phase Cloak).

And third because you don't have 14 Con to allow four Soulmelds, but I don't want to be THAT mean...

And the power of your Soulmelds is pretty questionable, too. On lvl1, doing 1d6 with Dissolving Spittle is okay, even if it's not that great, but doing 6d6 damage with it at 16-18? That's just plain useless, especially so considering it's a type of damage commonly resisted by evil creatures. If you were evil, this could still tickle them, but from what I understood of your description, you're in a party of bona fide heroes, so that won't do.

Airstep Sandals is another trouble child: you don't have a single reason to have it. Its only use is giving flight to desperate melee characters who have no way of reaching flying foes, and has no uses other than that, since it just turns gravity back on at the end of your turn.


5: Planar Touchstone (Catalogue of Enlightenment - Mysticism Domain - 1/day for character level +CHA to saves)

Spending a feat on a 1/day panic button? Couldn't you just abuse UMD for that? At that level, you're more than likely going to have some sort of wands available, even if you have to trade some items for them. There's no need to go that far for that, when just asking your friendly Cleric - or abusing UMD, as mentioned - would give better results.


9: Imperious Command

Unoptimized Intimidation tends to be really bad, and I don't think you have enough Skill Points to keep this topped off while still keeping your other skills on par with your level.


11: Martial Stance (Assassins Stance)

You don't qualify for this.


17: Darkstalker (LoM)

As I said above, you're stretching yourself too thin. You want to keep Move Silently, Hide, Intimidate, UMD, and probably the other Skills high, judging by those skills, but you have to do that on a super-low 3sp/level chassis. You can't keep them all relevant, and by doing so, you're making yourself even weaker than Bob. At this point, it's like comparing the hardness of a silk screen with that of a concrete brick: silk is already weaker than concrete, but by stretching it out like a screen, you just make it too fragile.

I'm sorry if I was a bit too blunt at some parts, but I don't think anyone should feel the pain of playing a Commoner. I don't like making assumptions, but maybe you're just overpowered because your entire group fails to notice those little flaws at your builds, and they end up snowballing into a massive ball of Gorgonzola. Could be fixed by just paying more attention to the rules.

Anyway, if all fails, why don't you try a Karsite Sorcerer? It's a pretty solid mundane, for a build based completely off a caster class. I could help you with that one. In fact, I think I might have a build for it ready to go.

jenotus
2016-08-11, 07:01 PM
Hi,

thanks for taking the time to go through the pre-requirements. I did not have the material with me as I was traveling, so I did the build from the top of my head (hence naming / pre-req not aligned).

Will iron it out to make it more viable, the tips are very much welcome. I would also be interested to see your Bob the Commoner Build, then we can compare the core ideas.

As for mistakes in my normal builds, rest asured that I do have a very attentive and accurate DM, so these are not existant. The discussion here is still a conception phase, where I do appriciate input (like yours) very much. As for the straightforwardness of your comments, they are very welcome mate :)

Best regards,
jeno

MisterKaws
2016-08-11, 08:01 PM
Hi,

thanks for taking the time to go through the pre-requirements. I did not have the material with me as I was traveling, so I did the build from the top of my head (hence naming / pre-req not aligned).

Will iron it out to make it more viable, the tips are very much welcome. I would also be interested to see your Bob the Commoner Build, then we can compare the core ideas.

As for mistakes in my normal builds, rest asured that I do have a very attentive and accurate DM, so these are not existant. The discussion here is still a conception phase, where I do appriciate input (like yours) very much. As for the straightforwardness of your comments, they are very welcome mate :)

Best regards,
jeno

No problems.

Also, I just saw another problem: where is Craft(Basketweaving)? It's pretty damn OP for a Commoner, and it's pretty much a default skill for them. You can make Adamantine-lined baskets, and they can be of any size. You can make Adamantine basket-shields of Sizing(Adamantine stuff counts as masterwork, so it can be enhanced) to make for really versatile baskets, which can be used as boats and tents, maybe even as nuclear shelters, if you use Riverine instead.

Calthropstu
2016-08-11, 08:45 PM
What would the cr be of an epic level commoner?

MisterKaws
2016-08-11, 09:07 PM
What would the cr be of an epic level commoner?

I don't know the actual ruling on this, but I found commoner level/2 to be pretty accurate.

Âmesang
2016-08-11, 09:37 PM
So I know this'll probably get shot down, like, immediately, but after hearing "commoner with farmer background" and "3rd party," my mind recalled the "hoe of destruction (http://ultima.wikia.com/wiki/Hoe_of_Destruction)" from Ultima VII: The Black Gate. :smalltongue:


"Accidental glory. One of the most recent magic items created, this once ordinary hoe dates back to only a few years ago when one of the first mages (a bush mage of no real merit) to succumb to the illness that now plagues all mages, was asked to both repair a broken hoe for a local farmer and enchant a sword for a warrior. Unfortunately, his perhaps-never-to-be-repeated-enchantment has made this hoe one of the better melee weapons around today. This hoe can be distinguished by it distinctive red, glowing head. Be wary if thou dost ever face it."

Base stats for a hoe is 3 gp and 2 lb. per the Arms and Equipment Guide, though no weapon stats in particular aside from –4 attack penalty for being improvised; 1d4 slashing, perhaps?

Calthropstu
2016-08-11, 11:39 PM
I don't know the actual ruling on this, but I found commoner level/2 to be pretty accurate.

yeah, but epic feats change things a bit.
To be fair, epic commoner should have its own epic feats... like super common, an effect that makes him completely invisible in noncombat situations. And other super cool stuff that would be useful for a commoner.

thorr-kan
2016-08-12, 12:08 AM
Precocious Apprentice is Wiz/Sorc only, so it's out.
Nope.

Precocious Apprentice "requires arcane caster level 1st". Magical Training has you "treated as a sorcerer or wizard of your arcane spellcaster lever (minimum 1st)".

Granted, I forgot about the spellcasting ability 15, which prevents these feats being used in this build.

MisterKaws
2016-08-12, 12:13 AM
yeah, but epic feats change things a bit.
To be fair, epic commoner should have its own epic feats... like super common, an effect that makes him completely invisible in noncombat situations. And other super cool stuff that would be useful for a commoner.

It's just as bad, because they don't qualify for a single epic feat.

jenotus
2016-08-12, 05:14 AM
updated the build (thanks to your comments) and also added a little level-by-level progression of how I think the build could turn out.

Feedback is welcome :)

Cheers.

MisterKaws
2016-08-12, 08:41 AM
Nope.

Precocious Apprentice "requires arcane caster level 1st". Magical Training has you "treated as a sorcerer or wizard of your arcane spellcaster lever (minimum 1st)".

Granted, I forgot about the spellcasting ability 15, which prevents these feats being used in this build.

I'm ashamed of myself. I'll be out for some time, commiting seppuku. After they raise me back, I'll probably make some new shenanigans with this, so thank you.

thorr-kan
2016-08-12, 09:01 AM
I'm ashamed of myself. I'll be out for some time, commiting seppuku. After they raise me back, I'll probably make some new shenanigans with this, so thank you.
Nah, I won't request seppuku.

There are two schools of thought on Magical Training and Precocious Apprentice shenanigans.

The first is that it gives you a spellbook. Since you now have a spell book, you can scribe 9th-level spells and gain Phenomenal Cosmic Power (TM) through various means. I don't cotton to that myself, but they're a vocal group.

The second is that it gives you as spellbook and 3 0-level and 1 2-level spell and caster level one. Anything else requires use of the Extra Spell and Extra Slot feats. Reserve feats give you an at-will ability. I cotton to that interpretation. Fun in an E6 environment, but hardly rule shattering.

And I'm done derailing this thread.

mabriss lethe
2016-08-12, 10:39 PM
What about taking ranks in Lucid Dreaming (Manual of the Planes)? Technically 3.0, but since it was never updated it's 3.5 legal. Once you can reliably hit dc 25, you can be a dream stalking murderer by entering someone else's dreams, pulling them into the dreamheart, and then escaping.

On a related note, Iaijutsu focus is not a trained-only skill. You can always attempt a raw charisma roll when you meet the conditions to get a bit of extra damage.

Races: being limited to PHB races pretty much leaves you with human as the only viable option. Feats and skills are going to be your only real power and humans play to both those needs.

For weapons: Starting with 0 gold means you'll be limited to freebie weapons with your single simple weapon proficiency. Either quarterstaff, club, or sling. Club is probably the most versatile, since it can be used two handed in melee while also being a throwing weapon.

For feats:
-Bootstrap manifester: This is easier with other races, but still possible on a human. Pick up any one of the psionic host feats, whichever one tickles your fancy Pacifist is my go-to. It isn't important, but the manifester level it grants you is the key to all of this. From here you can (optionally) pick up hidden talent. While its ML is normally fixed, if you have an existing manifester level, hidden talent will bind to that instead. My power of choice would be psionic minor creation. Couple this with the Master of Poisons feat and ranks in Craft:Poison for a decent starting character. Next, you'll want the Illithid Heritage feat line. You'll want Heritage, Skin, Legacy, and Greater Legacy as you meet the prereqs. This will beef up your saves, grant you intimidate as a class skill (opening up the viability of demoralization tactics), and give you a suite of useful psionic powers known. You'll be strapped for PP, but not as badly as you think. Since you are capable of properly manifesting a power, you gain bonus PP based on your manifesting stat and ML. You can expand on your powers known via Expanded Knowledge, or other shenanigans, and there are other ways to accomplish the deed, but this is my favorite since it gives you a nice selection of generally useful powers some other goodies.

-Domain feats: The various Domain devotions are rather good, and you can potentially build a character that just takes one or two over and over: Healing Devotion is better than most give credit for, since it allows you to pawn the uses onto your friends, stockpiling them indefinitely and relying on their action economy to activate it instead of your own. Animal Devotion is so flexible, you could realistically run a character that took it for every single feat and have a viable character. Law Devotion is good for boosting your low AC and Hit rolls. Trickery and Travel are also both very useful. Death is fun, and strong early on, but much less useful by late-game. Water Devotion lets you summon a flanking buddy, if that's your thing. It's often best to be "devoted" to an ideal rather than a specific deity, since it lets you mix and match the two you can take more effectively than when you're limited to a specific deity's domains.

-Draconic Auras are nice add ons and are easy to qualify for, though if you want them to grow with you, you'll have to nab Dragontouched as well. This can also be part of the basis for a natural attack build, though overcoming your BAB deficit is still an issue. to build up your natural attacks you'd use dragon touched to qualify for draconic heritage (any) and then qualify for draconic claws. At this point you can become a horrible abomination of form, and start acquiring aberrant feats to add things like wings, improved reach, and a pair of tentacle attack.

ShurikVch
2016-08-13, 04:28 AM
Why nobody mentioned Graft Flesh feat? :smallconfused:
With it you may get access to a lot of useful staff (and, if you will do it by yourself and harvest raw materials from defeated monsters, it should be much cheaper than usual price)

Sculpt Self feat ("Prestige Races" article, Dragon #304) allow to get new abilities by sacrificing XP (some examples: borrow speed 10, precision damage immunity, Produce Flame (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/produceFlame.htm) at will, inherent ability score bonus)

Infamous "Flaws for Commoners" article have Weresheep flaw - there (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20967282&postcount=8) I described how good it really is

How about the mid-game transformation?
Number of creatures can turn you into one of their kind (say, Elans (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/elan.htm)); also, magic such as Mineralize Warrior spell or Ritual of Crucimigration

Fighter with level 9 spells (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?219050-Fighter-with-level-9-spells) - if it works for Fighter, then it should work for Commoner

jenotus
2016-08-15, 04:53 AM
Hi gents,

thank you so much for the feedback and suggestions. Based on the last two replies, I have added the idea of an acquired template during the playtime. I based the new build on a combination of Necropolitan and Spell-Stitched and was surprised by the power that it achieved. The build looks competitative by just using this.

What I like about it is the narrow spell selection, which plays out a little bit like a sorcerer, yet the dragonmarks add some more flavor and swift casting ability to it.
Looking for your comments and ideas of how to improve it further.

(The ideas, which I considered but did not take were placed in the "honerable mentions" section. Not saying they are bad, but I encountered issues with them, which I pointed out in the section as well.)


best regards,
jeno

Endarire
2016-08-15, 04:32 PM
Precocious Apprentice (http://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/feat/Precocious_Apprentice) requires (INT 15 or CHA 15) AND (Arcane Caster Level 1). It isn't Sor/Wiz only. (Bards and other arcanists can take it.) Thus, with Magical Training, you could qualify and sometimes cast a level 2 arcane spell or use it to fuel a reserve feat or such.

But that feels less like 'an adventuring farmer' and more like 'a guy who got kicked off his burning farm for magically starting fires.'