Ranseur, Improved Disarm and Disarming

[Albions_Angel]

Hi all

So, Disarming. Rarely seen in most games, when it is, its either TOTALLY USELESS or HORRIBLY BROKEN. But I am building city guard templates so I can throw up a level appropriate city patrol in seconds. Most squads will consist of (lets say for a party of 4 guards) two sword and board types to soak up damage and bull rush, and 2 pole arm users, one to trip, one to disarm. Now with a Guisarme and Improved trip and a 14 in STR, my guards are getting +6 to their trip. Rather respectable without magic items or spells.

But the disarm guy. Same stats, so medium creature with +2. Takes Improved Disarm which, just like improved trip, grants a nice +4. So thats +6. I gave him a Ranseur, which confers a natural +2 to disarm. Ok, so +8. Thats getting a little high, but not too bad. Then I read this:


The wielder of a two-handed weapon on a disarm attempt gets a +4 bonus on this roll...

So, with 14 str (+2), a Ranseur (+2), Improved Disarm (+4) and the fact that the Ranseur is a two handed weapon (+4), I get +12 to disarm. And disarm doesnt require an attack roll like trip does.

Am I reading all that right? Is disarm REALLY that broken? I mean the tripping polearm, the guisarme, is identical damage but confers no bonus to tripping other than "You can drop the weapon". I dont mind it being that high, but i feel like I am missing something.

[Elder_Basilisk]

Hi all

So, Disarming. Rarely seen in most games, when it is, its either TOTALLY USELESS or HORRIBLY BROKEN. But I am building city guard templates so I can throw up a level appropriate city patrol in seconds. Most squads will consist of (lets say for a party of 4 guards) two sword and board types to soak up damage and bull rush, and 2 pole arm users, one to trip, one to disarm. Now with a Guisarme and Improved trip and a 14 in STR, my guards are getting +6 to their trip. Rather respectable without magic items or spells.

But the disarm guy. Same stats, so medium creature with +2. Takes Improved Disarm which, just like improved trip, grants a nice +4. So thats +6. I gave him a Ranseur, which confers a natural +2 to disarm. Ok, so +8. Thats getting a little high, but not too bad. Then I read this:



So, with 14 str (+2), a Ranseur (+2), Improved Disarm (+4) and the fact that the Ranseur is a two handed weapon (+4), I get +12 to disarm. And disarm doesnt require an attack roll like trip does.

Am I reading all that right? Is disarm REALLY that broken? I mean the tripping polearm, the guisarme, is identical damage but confers no bonus to tripping other than "You can drop the weapon". I dont mind it being that high, but i feel like I am missing something.

You're not missing much. It really is possible to be that good at disarming very early.

However, you are missing a couple things.
1. Two handed weapons get a bonus to the roll against disarm as well so while the ranseur is very good against a dagger, the +4 cancels out if you're trying to disarm a greatsword.
2. Locked gauntlets, etc give huge bonuses against disarm. So if the PCs don't want to be disarmed, they can ramp their anti-disarm bonus up very high, it just costs them a bit of flexibility to do so.

[Sayt]

In 3.5, isn't it an opposed check, so the +4 cancels out against other two-handers?

[Albions_Angel]

Thanks

I wasnt missing the opposed roll or the locked gauntlets, though there was no way for you to know that. My thinking is that its up to my players to keep track of their bonuses and penalties.

That does seem rather odd that it can get so high. If a DM or a group of players focuses on that, they could steam roll the other side. Probably easier for the DM to do as if the players go Disarm, the DM can just throw unarmed opponents. I see now why its considered broken.

"I disarm you"
"Um... I pick up my-"
"AoO!"
"Ow. Well I stab you."
"Ok, I disarm you. Do it again, I dare you."
"Uh, Im just gunna go stand over here."

[Elder_Basilisk]

Thanks

I wasnt missing the opposed roll or the locked gauntlets, though there was no way for you to know that. My thinking is that its up to my players to keep track of their bonuses and penalties.

That does seem rather odd that it can get so high. If a DM or a group of players focuses on that, they could steam roll the other side. Probably easier for the DM to do as if the players go Disarm, the DM can just throw unarmed opponents. I see now why its considered broken.

"I disarm you"
"Um... I pick up my-"
"AoO!"
"Ow. Well I stab you."
"Ok, I disarm you. Do it again, I dare you."
"Uh, Im just gunna go stand over here."

Nah, if the players go disarm, the DM just gives his bad guys a reasonable number of backup weapons and thanks his lucky stars that the players aren't actually dealing damage. (At least that's the route I took as a Living Greyhawk writer anticipating disarms and stuns).

"I disarm your greatsword."
"Fine, I draw my heavy mace, 5 foot step inside your reach, and hit you over the head. That's 8 damage."
"I five foot step back and disarm your heavy mace."
"I draw my dagger, 5 foot step inside your reach, and stab you. That's 6 damage."
"I five foot step back and disarm your puny dagger."
"Looks like I'm out of melee weapons. I five foot step back, draw a javalin, and throw it at you. That's 7 damage."
Other player: "Stop messing around; he's only got 12 hit points. If you'd hit him twice instead of all this disarming, you'd have taken 10 damage instead of 21 and he'd be dead instead of throwing javalins at you."

[Extra Anchovies]

That does seem rather odd that it can get so high. If a DM or a group of players focuses on that, they could steam roll the other side. Probably easier for the DM to do as if the players go Disarm, the DM can just throw unarmed opponents. I see now why its considered broken.

:smallconfused: I've never encountered that position before. Disarm is useless against enemies who fight with magic and/or natural weapons, as well as enemies larger than you, the three of which together make up a pretty big chunk of the tough enemies in 3.5. It is a decent strategy in games at lower levels, with less magic, and/or with fewer nonhumanoid monsters, though.