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Blit_Wizbok
2016-08-11, 08:15 PM
Made a fun Fighter subclass today: The Dervish

First the abilities, then I'll describe my thoughts and reasoning behind them :]

New weapon:
Scythe - 2d4 (slashing) - finesse, reach, 2-handed

This is a fighter subclass. They get new abilities at levels: 3, 7, 10, 15 and 18

Level 3:
SWEEPING STRIKES: When you use your Action to attack an enemy with a melee weapon you can use your Bonus Action to make a melee attack against a different creature that is within 5 feet of the original target, and within your reach.

REAPER'S GUARD: When you reduce a hostile creature to 0 hit points, or hit a creature with a critical strike, you gain temporary hit points equal to your Constitution modifier + your fighter level (minimum of 1).

Level 7:
DEFLECT: You can use your reaction to deflect or destroy the missile when you are hit by a ranged weapon attack. When you do so, the damage you take from the attack is reduced by 1d10 + your Strength (or Dexterity) modifier + your fighter level. If you reduce the damage to 0, and the missile is non-magical, you can cleave through it, destroying it.

Level 10:
IMPROVED CRITICAL: Your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20.

MOB DYNAMICS: Chaotic battles against waves of foes have sharpened your senses and given you masterful awareness of your surroundings. You can easily spot a recognizable face or a familiar voice through a gaggle of people, or make out what someone is saying over the tumult of a crowded room. Additionally, you can move around people with unprecedented ease. Moving through an ally's space is no longer considered difficult terrain.

Level 15:
WHIRLWIND: Once on your turn, when you take the Attack action, you can use one of your weapon attacks to attack all enemy creatures within your reach. You make only one attack roll, and use that outcome for determining if you would hit each creature.

Level 18:
SUPERIOR BREATHING: You gain an additional charge of Second Wind. You regain both charges when you finish a short or long rest.

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I've always wanted a sort of scythe-wielder in D&D. I was a major fan of the Dervish in Guild Wars, and the image of a hooded figure cleaving through enemies like a whirling lawnmower of death is one I've never really gotten over.

I tried to design a character with the ability to strike at multiple foes, should they be foolish enough to group up, while also having some sustain so the player doesn't instantly die to multiple attacks. With this and the GW Dervish in mind, I created the scythe as a new melee weapon.

The idea behind the scythe is to give the fighter a finesse reach option. I always wanted more interesting finesse weapons, and scythes (if you've ever seen them used for reaping) require only as much strength need to hold it. They're all about letting the blade do most the work, and you just controlling where it goes, hence, finesse seemed natural. As for the 2d4 damage, I wanted more weapons that do 2 dice of damage to synergize even more with Great Weapon Fighter. It doesn't compete with the heavy weapons for damage, and fills a nice little niche I think the game was missing. Unique and memorable without overpowered-ness, just how I like it.

The abilities of a Dervish came fairly easily to me (especially because some of them were clones of other classes). As mentioned before, I wanted good area damage, and self-survivability for the Dervish. A melee character that can handle groups. For this I created Sweeping Strike and Reaper's Guard. Sweeping strikes really feels right, and gives the fighter something to do with his/her bonus action (assuming no Two Weapon Fighting). The immediate downside to this is that, depending on the DM, catching enemies within 5 feet of each other can be uncommon. I played with the idea of letting you attack any creature within your range as a bonus action, but I thought that'd be a bit much, and may look rather silly in an RP sense. Another option is to allow the scythe under the umbrella of the Polearm Master feat (which I think is a good idea). That way if the player doesn't encounter clustered enemies often, they can still use that feat to give them something to do with their bonus action.

Reaper's Guard is a shameless duplication of the warlock's Dark One's Blessing. However making it scale off of constitution gives more perks to putting points towards your heath. It also would incentivize a less experienced player, who may not understand just how valuable constitution is, to put points there. My hope is this will save them from getting low con, and then thinking the class weak when they get hacked to bits by 3 orcs.

Deflect is the next ability I gave to the Dervish. Nothing's worse then when you're having a nice time hacking enemies to bits and you're suddenly hit with a hail of arrows. Deflect (an inspired name, I know) is the monk's Deflect Missiles, with a little dervish flair. Instead of catching the projectile you destroy it. I felt like it's necessary to give them something against range, considering they're going to be purposefully attacking large numbers of enemies in melee, they should get a little reprieve from the cowards on the back line.

At this point I felt like bolstering the Dervish's damage output, and improved critical is a nice little bonus. Actually, if you do the math, it's an extremely potent bonus, especially with all the extra attacks fighters get. That small percent boost to crit seriously adds up when multiple attacks come together. This also synergizes well with Reaper's Guard, triggering it more without having to get the killing blow; something that will matter as enemies get tougher or less numerous at the higher levels. I also looked at the maneuvers of a battle master, and the spells of an eldritch knight. Those subclasses give fighters a wide range of options when approaching combat, but the Dervish has comparatively few, which I like. I wanted to keep the class relatively simple, and a passive boost to crit seemed like a noticeable boost to damage, without adding any real complication to the character. Also, I can only imaging the dream of hitting a crit on a Whirlwind roll.

Speaking of Whirlwind! I love this ability. It just fits my idea of this character so well. It's a massive sweeping attack that hits all the things! You can only do it once per turn, and it's one of your actions, but it's a direct upgrade to a normal melee attack. There's no reason not to whirlwind with one of your attacks if there's more than one target in range. I decided to make only one roll for all of the attacks because of pacing. Fighters already take a long time to complete their turn. At this level, they have 3 normal attacks, a possible bonus action attack, and a 4th attack from action surge. Add on to that the re-rolling if the player took great weapon fighter, it comes out to a lot of rolling. Cutting down on that by only making one attack roll is a very good thing.

Now for the capstone. I put a lot of thought into the capstone ability; I wanted something that gave health, not just temporary HP. I also wanted something more consistent. As it stands, the Dervish doesn't have any response to damage taken. They can mitigate it ahead of time with Reaper's Guard, and slap down ranged damage with Deflect, but if a big nasty just boops them in the snoot, they don't have any ability to recover from that. I toyed with giving them some sort of health gain based on if they're below half health. Like they siphon a small amount of health per enemy hit, but I felt that that stepped a little too much on the Champion's toes, as they have a passive HP regen when they're below half health for their capstone. I also played with the Dervish somehow marking an opponent, and then gaining HP when they deal damage to it. I quickly discarded this idea, because a "marking" mechanic is something that should run through the entire class, not just be randomly introduced at level 18. I also didn't want something too strong. The Dervish has a lot of really great and powerful abilities. I didn't want to give them too strong of a capstone, or risk making them overpowered.

Eventually, I settled on just improving Second Wind. It's an ability that all fighters have, but none of the subclasses do anything with it. Improving an ability inherent to the fighter also aligns with my idea of keeping this character uncomplicated. I had a few ideas on how I should improve it. I played with 3 options: 1. Double the healing of Second Wind 2. Add your constitution modifier to the roll and 3. Giving 2 charges (which I eventually went with). Now, before I begin, I'd like to explain my interpretation of what the designers intended Second Wind to be. It's not deigned to recover completely from a strike, but to bring an unexpectedly high damaging hit back down to what you thought you were going to get hit for. It smooths out big spikes in damage without entirely recovering from an attack.

For example: As a fighter you're always expecting to get hit. You're level 12 or so, and you expect to get hit for around 30 damage this turn, but the enemy rolls unexpectedly high, and you get hit for 45. You use Second Wind, heal for 17, and bring that damage back into line with what you expected to take.

On this note, flat doubling the heal on Second Wind (option 1) would take it too far away from what I think it was designed to be. On the other side of the spectrum, only adding 5 health (max constitution mod before gear bonuses) doesn't feel very impactful. I decided giving you more uses of of Second Wind is the best option. It's like doubling the healing (if you need it), but spread out over multiple turns, which gives you more flexibility.

Tell me what ya'll think.

Elminster298
2016-08-11, 08:33 PM
Snip

I think this is a wonderful subclass. I think you made it different enough to be fun while simple enough for easy playability. I think my only suggestion would be... Did you consider making them do triple damage on a crit instead of improved crit? I think it might also be appropriate to limit this, sweeping strike, and whirlwind to only slashing weapons. Those are my only suggested changes so far. Great job!

PS Forgot to add my reasoning for triple crit. You seem like you built this around a scythe and scythes have the POTENTIAL for huge amounts of damage. Obviously they would be able to use any weapon(or only slashing with my suggestion) but it would still have that feel of devastating seeping blows.

Blit_Wizbok
2016-08-11, 09:32 PM
Did you consider making them do triple damage on a crit instead of improved crit?

I like that idea, but the improved crit chance also increases the activations of Reaper's Guard, for temp hp.

MBControl
2016-08-12, 12:29 AM
I like that idea, but the improved crit chance also increases the activations of Reaper's Guard, for temp hp.

I'm not sure if this will end up being a big issue, but if it is, you could limit Reaper's Guard to once per round, or once per encounter, or twice a day, or some variation like that. Maybe a max Total THP above your base HP.

Lollerabe
2016-08-12, 03:17 AM
Not that it might be a problem for your table, but only the extra second wind feature isn't taken from other archetypes. It looks.. Okay? Personally I wouldn't play it as it's just a mash up of different already existing abilities

GorogIrongut
2016-08-12, 04:27 AM
To me dervishes are slightly more magical. I probably would have used a monk or a barbarian chassis.

Blit_Wizbok
2016-08-12, 07:25 AM
I'm not sure if this will end up being a big issue, but if it is, you could limit Reaper's Guard to once per round, or once per encounter, or twice a day, or some variation like that. Maybe a max Total THP above your base HP.

I don't think the temp HP will be much of an issue. Temp HP can't stack, and the amount you get from it isn't overwhelming.


Not that it might be a problem for your table, but only the extra second wind feature isn't taken from other archetypes. It looks.. Okay? Personally I wouldn't play it as it's just a mash up of different already existing abilities
I agree, Guard and Deflect are borrowed from other classes, but those are the only two (arguably Imp. Crit, which is also used by the Champion). But those abilities, though borrowed from other classes, can't be used together without multiclassing. Because of this, rolling them into one class allows for a playstile not available normally.


To me dervishes are slightly more magical. I probably would have used a monk or a barbarian chassis.
The thought of making the Dervish it's own unique class (rather than a subclass) crossed my mind. It would have had a range of different melee attacks, each suitable to a different situation. It also had a variety of self buffs designed for survival and battlefield control. This would resemble the Guild Wars Dervish more, but it got very complicated very quickly, and I decided simpler was better.

R.Shackleford
2016-08-12, 07:35 AM
My only disappointment comes from the fact I read it as "the darvish" and thought it was a pitcher Subclass (based around throwing stuff)...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yu_Darvish

But that's my fault lol

Blit_Wizbok
2016-08-12, 07:37 AM
My only disappointment comes from the fact I read it as "the darvish" and thought it was a pitcher Subclass (based around throwing stuff)...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yu_Darvish

But that's my fault lol

Ha ha. I have an old druid that uses magic stone on everything from pebbles to pincones. I suppose that works :p

gfishfunk
2016-08-12, 10:53 AM
I half like it. I do see a problem, though. All of your abilities are combat functional, whereas at least one on both the Champion and the other one (which escapes me for whatever reason) have an ability that is purely exploratory or ribbon in flavor. In short, I would remove the level 7 bonus (or move it) and give something exploratory instead, or a bump to an out of combat skill.


Level 3:
SWEEPING STRIKES: When you hit an enemy with a melee attack you can use your Bonus Action to make a melee attack against another creature that is within 5 feet of the original target, and within your reach.

I think this is the defining feature of the class. I would remove the 'when you hit' language and state 'when you use your action to attack.'


Level 10:
IMPROVED CRITICAL: Your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20.

I think I would remove this one out of all of the abilities and replace it by a ribbon. I treads on the champion, and gives players the defining characteristic of the champion.

I don't think its game breaking, I just think its a little too nice. I would never choose champion over this subclass due to the way they ellipse.

N810
2016-08-12, 11:01 AM
Is it just me or is 1D4 a bit low for a 2 handed weapon ???
Especially for a crit centered class. :smallconfused:

Blit_Wizbok
2016-08-12, 11:40 AM
Is it just me or is 1D4 a bit low for a 2 handed weapon ???
Especially for a crit centered class. :smallconfused:

Whoops! I did mean 2d4, I edited it. Thanks lol.

MBControl
2016-08-12, 04:50 PM
My only disappointment comes from the fact I read it as "the darvish" and thought it was a pitcher Subclass (based around throwing stuff)...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yu_Darvish

But that's my fault lol

The Darvish class is pretty good, but you can only play a few times year, because he's usually injured.

Sigreid
2016-08-12, 05:39 PM
My initial impression is that it feels significantly more powerful than the other fighter sub-classes to me and I don't think it's a good thing if there is a clear "winner" subclass.

I do understand that there are officially released sub-classes that are clear "winners".

Elminster298
2016-08-12, 06:52 PM
My initial impression is that it feels significantly more powerful than the other fighter sub-classes to me and I don't think it's a good thing if there is a clear "winner" subclass.

I do understand that there are officially released sub-classes that are clear "winners".

I sort of agree with you... I think it is SLIGHTLY more powerful than Champion but SLIGHTLY less powerful than Battlemaster. I think it fills a much needed middle ground based around utility. Damage is situationally higher/on par with Champion and situationally lower/on par with Blademaster. Utility is higher than Champion and lower than Blademaster. For me personally, choosing it over either of the other two would be entirely based on role-playing or metagaming if I knew the DM style well enough.

Blit_Wizbok
2016-08-12, 09:06 PM
I think this is the defining feature of the class. I would remove the 'when you hit' language and state 'when you use your action to attack.'

Good thinking. I also reworded is to say a different creature, so they can't just attack the same thing twice.


I think I would remove this one out of all of the abilities and replace it by a ribbon. I treads on the champion, and gives players the defining characteristic of the champion.

I agree, I never really liked the imp crit too much for the exact reason you don't. I forgot that classes always have some sort of ribbon. I'll make the level 10 skill the ribbon, because fighters get another Extra Attack at level 11, so a weaker (in a combat sense) level 10 skill isn't that bad. How's this:

MOB DYNAMICS: Chaotic battles against waves of foes have sharpened your senses and given you masterful awareness of your surroundings. You can easily spot a recognizable face or a familiar voice through a gaggle of people, or make out what someone is saying over the tumult of a crowded room. Additionally, you can move around people with unprecedented ease. Moving through an ally's space is no longer considered difficult terrain.

Elminster298
2016-08-12, 09:10 PM
Good thinking. I also reworded is to say a different creature, so they can't just attack the same thing twice.



I agree, I never really liked the imp crit too much for the exact reason you don't. I forgot that classes always have some sort of ribbon. I'll make the level 10 skill the ribbon, because fighters get another Extra Attack at level 11, so a weaker (in a combat sense) level 10 skill isn't that bad. How's this:

MOB DYNAMICS: Chaotic battles against waves of foes have sharpened your senses and given you masterful awareness of your surroundings. You can easily spot a recognizable face or a familiar voice through a gaggle of people, or make out what someone is saying over the tumult of a crowded room. Additionally, you can move around people with unprecedented ease. Moving through an ally's space is no longer considered difficult terrain.

I like that. It's situationally useful without being mechanically a plus or minus either way.

Lollerabe
2016-08-13, 01:41 AM
I don't wanna be that guy blit but yeah they are all taken from other subclasses.

The sweeping strikes = a nerfed version of hordebreaker since it requires a BA

Then you got deflect from the monk

Dark ones blessing from fiend lock

You had imp crit from champion

And whirlwind (although a nerfed version) from hunter again.

Why anyone says this is to good is beyond me, it seems like a weird hunter mashup that synergizes less than great with the fighter chasis.

I don't understand the new wording on whirlwind 'one of your actions' as that meant to be 'one of your attacks'? Or do you chose if it's a bonus action,reaction, or action?

MeeposFire
2016-08-13, 02:03 AM
I don't wanna be that guy blit but yeah they are all taken from other subclasses.

The sweeping strikes = a nerfed version of hordebreaker since it requires a BA

Then you got deflect from the monk

Dark ones blessing from fiend lock

You had imp crit from champion

And whirlwind (although a nerfed version) from hunter again.

Why anyone says this is to good is beyond me, it seems like a weird hunter mashup that synergizes less than great with the fighter chasis.

I don't understand the new wording on whirlwind 'one of your actions' as that meant to be 'one of your attacks'? Or do you chose if it's a bonus action,reaction, or action?

I think it is a reference to action surge.

While I agree about it being a weaker form of horde breaker I am not so sure about whirlwind attack. It is hard to make something weaker than whirlwind attack and this has a much better range though it is now a gamble with all or nothing essentially. I think that roll once in the long run will end up equaling itself out but yeah I can see it getting annoying quick if I roll poorly with it a few times.

I also agree that on the fighter class this ability does not hold up as well though adding reach to it helps (though I would say that changing it to roll to hit per target but roll damage once would be better if you want to get rid of some dice rolls). By the time you get this ability your attack action can already attack 3 targets around you. This means you need at least 4 people in reach to make it worth your time to use. Even with reach this feels like a tall order to make it one of your special abilities in general. Also at 20th level you will need 5 people to make it worth it.


I think you need to eliminate the bonus action on sweeping strikes. Just make it a version of horde breaker. As is I would rarely use it. I would just take polearm and pick up PAM instead. Yes my damage on that attack would go down slightly but then I can choose to use it on a single target which is better for the most part. Horde breaker is a nice ability but certainly not strong enough to force a nerf. I would leave it as is and even use the same name so somebody cannot claim you can combine the two.

Lollerabe
2016-08-13, 02:38 AM
Basically what mepoos said. The hordebreaker feature from the hunter has a niche since it adds a attack without messing with ones action economy, this makes the feature pretty hefty on a GWM barb fx, which makes a 3 lvl ranger dip interesting.

Your version is pretty lackluster - as a rule of thumb I'd avoid features that requires a bonus action for a fighter archetype (if you play with feats at least) since almost every fighter will pick some sort of weapon feat, and they all have a bonus action option/trigger (except for sharpshooter).

Then there's your whirlwind - as mepoos explained and I hinted at earlier, it's a lackluster feature on a fighter due to the amount of attacks you already got. The hunter whirlwind is already considered weak, but at least a ranger only has 2 attacks so sometimes (although rarely) it can add extra attacks.

For a fighter however it's gonna be extremely rare that the conditions for your whirlwind are met and/or are worth it.

If I got GWM/PAM on a lvl 15 fighter I can make 3(4) attacks on demand, so I need at least 5 enemies for whirlwind to be worth it, and since you made it a single dice roll it's super risky - if I miss I just blew my turn doing no damage at all. Had I taken the standard attack action I would most likely hit with 2 attacks.

Then there's the scythe, is the '2 handed' feature meant to be the heavy feature ? If so I'd be very careful if I were you. Opening up for dex based GWM chars seems to be a quick road to munchkiness.

Sorry for being so critical of your homebrew, I understand the flavor you are going for, I just think it's poorly done.

Blit_Wizbok
2016-08-13, 10:12 AM
I don't understand the new wording on whirlwind 'one of your actions' as that meant to be 'one of your attacks'? Or do you chose if it's a bonus action,reaction, or action?

Yes, that was really confusing. I've reworded it:

Level 15:
WHIRLWIND: Once on your turn, when you take the Attack action, you can use one of your weapon attacks to attack all enemy creatures within your reach. You make only one attack roll, and use that outcome for determining if you would hit each creature.

Blit_Wizbok
2016-08-13, 10:29 AM
Then there's the scythe, is the '2 handed' feature meant to be the heavy feature ? If so I'd be very careful if I were you. Opening up for dex based GWM chars seems to be a quick road to munchkiness.

No, 2-hand and Heavy are two different keywords. The scythe is 2-handed, but it is not a Heavy weapon, and therefore wouldn't be eligible for the second half of GWM.



Sorry for being so critical of your homebrew, I understand the flavor you are going for, I just think it's poorly done.

I'm glad you are. I want people to be critical, that's how we make things better <3

A lot of confusion came from the poor wording on Whirlwind. I've since reworded it:
WHIRLWIND: Once on your turn, when you take the Attack action, you can use one of your weapon attacks to attack all enemy creatures within your reach. You make only one attack roll, and use that outcome for determining if you would hit each creature.

Also, I did think about the bonus action economy. The only weapon feat (including two-weapon fighting) that this doesn't play nice with SS is Great Weapon Fighter, because Sweeping Strikes already gives you the ability to attack multiple enemies. However, I don't see the bonus attack from Polearm Master or two-weapon fighting getting in the way of SS. This is because those bonus actions are most often going to be used against a single opponent, whereas SS needs 2 creatures to attack.

Lollerabe
2016-08-13, 12:18 PM
Aight That makes sense, you might need to reword it a bit - in its current form I can perform 6 whirlwind attacks with action surge, which is cool and all but maybe a bit strong. Just limit it a bit 'you may only use this feature 2 times pr round blah blah' sort of thing.

As me and mepoos said just remove the BA part of SS, horde breaker isn't broken and by puting the BA in you are gimping the archetype fighter for no reason
P.S shieldmaster also uses a BA on the regular - just remove it.

Blit_Wizbok
2016-08-13, 12:25 PM
...I can perform 6 whirlwind attacks with action surge...

It states, "once on your turn"

Lollerabe
2016-08-13, 12:30 PM
Somehow overlooked that - cool, I like it synergy with extra attacks and a better whirlwind