Hairstyling - profession or craft?

[daremetoidareyo]

Came up at the table. Player wants the granularity of specific haircuts and hitting DCs in singular instances of haircutting.

This isn't the first time this has come up.

[Waker]

I'd vote for Profession. Profession tends to be a skill that relates to a service, whereas Craft is about creating a tangible object. Now if you are making a wig for instance, that would be Craft.

[Jormengand]

Profession. A craft check represents at least a day's work per item created, so it wouldn't be appropriate for something that usually takes some length of time best expressed in minutes, and it also implies you're creating actual objects.

[MisterKaws]

I think Craft. The Profession version of it would be Barber or (insert female variant here). Kinda like how you can have Profession(Blacksmith), even if doing so is really redundant.

[digiman619]

My own two cents? Profession. A craft is something someone can made in their spare time; unless you get to keep their head in your garage, it doesn't feel like a Craft.

[MisterKaws]

My own two cents? Profession. A craft is something someone can made in their spare time; unless you get to keep their head in your garage, it doesn't feel like a Craft.

There's a bunch of hair-stylists? who practice with wigs, so...

[Extra Anchovies]

Craft is selling the product of your labor.

Profession is selling the labor itself.

In this case, it's the latter. Your customers aren't paying for new hair - they're paying for alterations to their current hair.

[Âmesang]

Or are they? (http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=325)

I'd vote for Profession as well, although it reminds me that cooking is also classified as a Profession as opposed to a Craft (see the adventure, "Something's Cooking"), but then again I'm not sure how one would craft a cook… (Do I want the Chef Ramsay head or the Swedish Chef head?)

[DeadMech]

I hear the arguments that hair cutting is a service and not a product and thus a profession... and I agree with that argument fully.

On the other hand. I'm not sure it it really matters.

Craft is intelligence based and might allow them to go on to make wigs if they later wanted to.
Profession is wisdom based and trained only. So unless you invest actual skill ranks you can't make more than 1 silver a day.

Given those factors I could see a player wanting it to be craft because it's more flexible and might use a stat their character is better in.

In the end does it really matter?

[digiman619]

I hear the arguments that hair cutting is a service and not a product and thus a profession... and I agree with that argument fully.

On the other hand. I'm not sure it it really matters.

Craft is intelligence based and might allow them to go on to make wigs if they later wanted to.
Profession is wisdom based and trained only. So unless you invest actual skill ranks you can't make more than 1 silver a day.

Given those factors I could see a player wanting it to be craft because it's more flexible and might use a stat their character is better in.

In the end does it really matter?

If you've ever seen a horrible haircut, you'd understand why it should be trained only.

[DeadMech]

If you've ever seen a horrible haircut, you'd understand why it should be trained only.

I give myself my own terrible haircuts.

[digiman619]

I give myself my own terrible haircuts.

I rest my case.

[daremetoidareyo]

Given those factors I could see a player wanting it to be craft because it's more flexible and might use a stat their character is better in.

In the end does it really matter?

I think the angle that they are pushing is to get it to be a craft and then pairing it with craft wondrous item and probably scribe scroll or craft skull talisman or some refluffable feat to use the Complete arcane's rules about alternative magic items to make a character concept of a person who turns people's haircuts into magic items. They were talking about playing a glammy enchanter.

But who knows.

I'm thinking there could also be a possible future where we hash out a homebrew hairstyling skill, with commensurate wild epic level skill checks.

[ExLibrisMortis]

There are intelligence-based barbers, wisdom-based barbers, and perhaps some charisma-based barbers. The first craft haircuts, the second service your hair, the third express their style.

[Soranar]

It's pretty clear cut (no pun intended) actually

a craft creates something (say bread)

a profession loans you his labor (say a plumber)

one is often replaced by machines in our world

the other one cannot be

and a person that makes wigs is a wigmaker not a hairstylist though they can certainly be both

[Extra Anchovies]

There are intelligence-based barbers, wisdom-based barbers, and perhaps some charisma-based barbers. The first craft haircuts, the second service your hair, the third express their style.

Oh, that's an interesting way of looking at mundane professions. Any job can be Craft, Profession, or Perform, depending on how it's done. I think I'll be incorporating that into my houserules, actually.

And yes, that could mean cooking-based bards, running around the battlefield whisking eggs and giving out combat bonuses.

[digiman619]

Oh, that's an interesting way of looking at mundane professions. Any job can be Craft, Profession, or Perform, depending on how it's done. I think I'll be incorporating that into my houserules, actually.

And yes, that could mean cooking-based bards, running around the battlefield whisking eggs and giving out combat bonuses.

That's like the Skilled Magic drawback in Spheres of Power. That makes it so you can breakdance someone back to life.

[PaucaTerrorem]

I have to go with Craft.

Craft feels like something you do with your hands/creating.
Profession feels like something you do.

Trades are Craft.
Office work is Profession.

Best way I can put it.

[Âmesang]

Might it help to actually quote the Player's Handbook on this? :smallsmile:


While a Craft skill represents ability in creating or making an item, a Profession skill represents an aptitude in a vocation requiring a broader range of less specific knowledge. To draw a modern analogy, if an occupation is a service industry, it's probably a Profession skill. If it's in the manufacturing sector, it's probably a Craft skill.

— Player's Handbook, p.80

[ExLibrisMortis]

Oh, that's an interesting way of looking at mundane professions. Any job can be Craft, Profession, or Perform, depending on how it's done. I think I'll be incorporating that into my houserules, actually.

And yes, that could mean cooking-based bards, running around the battlefield whisking eggs and giving out combat bonuses.
Glad that could be of use! It's what I've been telling my current group (new players) about those skills, actually. Mainly, I wanted to avoid the 'but why is this Craft, and that Profession?'-question, but it's good for other things; you can get some natural characterization out of it, too.

For example, take three lawyers, one using each skill.
- Craft (legal document): Highly technical argumentation, well-sourced, step-by-step. Completely unreadable, can't handle a flawed case, goes down badly with the public. Probably a tax lawyer.
- Profession (lawyer): Sixth sense for flawed arguments, knows and plays the system like no other. Smells of backroom politics and barbed comments just where it hurts. Likes to settle out of court, for maximum profit.
- Perform (plea): Highly entertaining, gets the court to go along with anything, has popular support. Sometimes uses flawed argumentation, often arrives late, and is very expensive. Only takes big, famous cases.
- Unstoppable lawyer team: Craft handles the research*, Perform handles the plea, Profession handles the rest (including coordinating the other two).

Of course, these are not the only possible characterizations - there are a lot of options.



*Keeping in mind that int-based crafters will have more skill points and high Knowledge ranks, too.

[Hecuba]

Hair dressing would generally be one of the better examples of Profession.

The only place I could see it veer into craft would be the extremes of haute couture, where people pay someone like Ted Gibson or Stuart Phillips thousands of dollars to get their hair done in a way that will only hold for one night. That's not a market most of us are in, but it does legitimately appear more similar to the market for ephemeral works of art than the market for a normal haircut.

It's worth noting, however, that Gibson and Phillips both still have Salons where they provide rich people still fashionable but less extravagant hairstyles (still for something like 1200 a visit). So even there, it probably doesn't exist without Profession on the same character.

[teslas]

Craft is selling the product of your labor.

Profession is selling the labor itself.

In this case, it's the latter. Your customers aren't paying for new hair - they're paying for alterations to their current hair.

Emphasis mine.

I mean, yeah, I'm with you, but this doesn't really hold up in a fantasy world. What if you researched/prayed for "Bestow Hair"/"Thicken Hair"/etc?

[SethoMarkus]

Emphasis mine.

I mean, yeah, I'm with you, but this doesn't really hold up in a fantasy world. What if you researched/prayed for "Bestow Hair"/"Thicken Hair"/etc?

I would still argue it wouldn't be Craft (Hairstyles). In the case of magic being used, it would probably just fall under the services of a specialist spellcaster.

A Hairstylist would certainly use Profession (Hairstylist). However, if your players are looking to roll for set DCs Craft fits a little better. Although, there are set DCs for Profession (Sailor) for example... It really depends what they are trying to do with it. If indeed they want to craft magical hair, personally I would probably veto that, but in the right comedic game, maybe...

[Jay R]

Alejandro can do beautiful hairstyles. He's gone broke underpricing them once, and then gone broke again setting up shop next to a tanner's, which stinks.

Finally, he is hired by Elena, who runs a salon. She set up shop at a busy corner of the city, has built up a loyal clientele, and advertises well. She does not ever deal with customers' hair, and has hired Alejandro to do so.

Alejandro has Craft(hairstyling). Elena has Profession(hairstyling).

[Seppo87]

is this important?

I mean, I tend to use this rule: Be loose. Say yes.

Yes, you can use either craft or profession, as you wish. It's not game changing, it makes you happy, please go ahead.

[AslanCross]

Craft is for making a specific thing; Profession is a broader application of skills that go into that particular industry. Hence, Profession (sailor) involves working with rigging, navigation, and repair, while Profession (Siege Engineer) involves maintenance, targeting, and operation of a siege weapon. On the other hand, a guy with Craft (Shipbuilding) can spend raw materials to build a sailing ship, or another person with Craft (Carpentry) can probably build a siege engine, but not necessarily have the skills to use it to wreck an enemy fortress.

I think the key difference one ought to consider is that Craft usually involves an expense for raw materials to make something; Profession can actually be used to earn gold.

One does not spend 150 GP to give another person a haircut; one is paid for the service; I would say Profession.

EDIT: As per RAW, Craft and Profession have identical clauses wherein they say:


Check
You can practice your trade and make a decent living, earning about half your Profession check result in gold pieces per week of dedicated work. You know how to use the tools of your trade, how to perform the profession’s daily tasks, how to supervise helpers, and how to handle common problems.


Thus, both of them can be used interchangeably in terms of making a living. However, Craft specifies that its primary use is the creation of items, then goes into its explanation of how crafting works. As such, Craft (baking) and Profession (baker) can both be used to make a living off supplying the army with its daily bagel ration, but you will probably need Craft (baking) to create a Bread Golem, or a giant cake for the princess's coming-of-age ceremony, or bake your king's enemies into a pie.