Boosts to weaker Hunter Ranger options

[rudy]

Hello again.

So, I know that the Hunter Ranger is a solid option, but that's assuming you take the "right" choices. After reading several guides and opinions, it becomes clear that some of the choices are plainly superior to others. The goal of the following alterations is to bring the "worse" options up to the level, to make the decision more agonizingly difficult.

I'm grateful for any input on the proposed changes.

---

Giant Slayer: When a Large or larger creature within 10 feet of you hits or misses you with an attack, you can use your reaction to attack that creature immediately after its attack, provided you can see that creature. As part of this attack, you may move up to 5 feet toward the creature. This does not count against your movement for the round, but may provoke opportunity attacks as normal.

Steel Will: You cannot be frightened.

Whirlwind Attack: Append: Provided you have the movement available, you can move up to 5 feet in the course of your whirlwind attack, possibly extending the attack to additional creatures. This movement may trigger opportunity attacks as usual.

Stand Against the Tide: One per round, when a hostile creature misses you with a melee attack, you can force that creature to repeat the attack against a creature within its reach that is adjacent to you. Conditions are slightly more restrictive (and sensible) but crucially this does not use your Reaction.

[Tanarii]

I'm usually the first to step up and defend the Ranger. But hey, those Giant Killer and Whirlwind changes look pretty damn good to me.

[rudy]

I'm usually the first to step up and defend the Ranger. But hey, those Giant Killer and Whirlwind changes look pretty damn good to me.

Thanks very much! If I can ask, is the issue with the Steel Will change that it's boring, or that it's too powerful?

[Tanarii]

Thanks very much! If I can ask, is the issue with the Steel Will change that it's boring, or that it's too powerful?

Actually, I just couldn't remember exactly what the original does off the top of my head. :)

[rudy]

Actually, I just couldn't remember exactly what the original does off the top of my head. :)
The original gives you advantage on saving throws against being frightened. This is competing at 7th level against:

Escape the Horde: Opportunity attacks against you are made at disadvantage

And

Multiattack Defense: When a creature hits you with an attack, you get +4 AC against all subsequent attacks by that creature for the rest of the turn.

The original is generally regarded as being far inferior, especially due to the fact that if you aren't proficient in Will saves, advantage may not make that big of a difference.

I debated between flat out immunity to frightened, and:

Steel Will: You have advantage on saving throws to avoid being frightened, and can use your action to end one effect on yourself that is causing you to be frightened.

[Giant2005]

You need to take away the Large or Larger requirement of Giant Slayer. You can't have a large portion of your DPR only apply ro certain creatures. When you do that, it becomes impossible to balance due to either doing too much damage against those creatures, or too few against everything else.

[Citan]

Hello again.

So, I know that the Hunter Ranger is a solid option, but that's assuming you take the "right" choices. After reading several guides and opinions, it becomes clear that some of the choices are plainly superior to others. The goal of the following alterations is to bring the "worse" options up to the level, to make the decision more agonizingly difficult.

I'm grateful for any input on the proposed changes.

---

Giant Slayer: When a Large or larger creature within 10 feet of you hits or misses you with an attack, you can use your reaction to attack that creature immediately after its attack, provided you can see that creature. As part of this attack, you may move up to 5 feet toward the creature. This does not count against your movement for the round, but may provoke opportunity attacks as normal.

Steel Will: You cannot be frightened.

Whirlwind Attack: Append: Provided you have the movement available, you can move up to 5 feet in the course of your whirlwind attack, possibly extending the attack to additional creatures. This movement may trigger opportunity attacks as usual.

Stand Against the Tide: One per round, when a hostile creature misses you with a melee attack, you can force that creature to repeat the attack against a creature within its reach that is adjacent to you. Conditions are slightly more restrictive (and sensible) but crucially this does not use your Reaction.
These are nice changes, apart from the last: your suggested change makes it too situational (strict conditions) while still too powerful (no reaction use) at the same time imo. Because depending on the creature, it can be a very heavy attack! So no use of a reaction seems plainly too much.

Apart from that, I would like to suggest others.

Colossus Slayer. When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, the creature takes 1d8 extra damage if it's below hit points maximum. You can deal this damage only once per turn on the same creature.
>>> This synergizes very well with Volley and Whirlwind, since it scales with the number of enemies you manage to hit: encourages tactical teamplay and smart positioning.

Whirlwind. Make the range equal to "weapon reach". Rewards more niche builds. :)

[djreynolds]

What if you could also cause fear during giant slayer, like he's scared of a giant killer?

Why can't rangers invoke fear into favored enemies, if not damage?

[Citan]

What if you could also cause fear during giant slayer, like he's scared of a giant killer?

Why can't rangers invoke fear into favored enemies, if not damage?
Very nice idea imo, flavorful and mechanically useful. I would put it at a higher level though, like an added feature, like at 7th at least, maybe even 11th.

Therefore explaining it as "while the Ranger was growing up to 11th level, it made so many great deeds and prowess, notably while fighting against his favored enemies, that he gained a sinister reputation of death bringer that squeezes courage out of even the bravest ones."
Or something like that... ;)

[R.Shackleford]

How about making Giant Slayer relative to the PC race?

Whenever a creature at least 1 size larger than your race...

[Specter]

Giant Slayer: Anytime a Large or Larger creature makes an attack roll within 5 feet of you, you may use your reaction to make a melee attack against it.

The problem with it is that the creature may simply avoid attacking you. With this, not anymore.

Steel Will: advantage on saves against being frightened OR charmed, and it's good to go.

[rudy]

You need to take away the Large or Larger requirement of Giant Slayer. You can't have a large portion of your DPR only apply ro certain creatures. When you do that, it becomes impossible to balance due to either doing too much damage against those creatures, or too few against everything else.No, too powerful. That's essentially an extra attack every round the Ranger is in combat, which outstrips the other two options. You could also argue that "Horde Breaker" deals too much damage against large groups of weaker creatures, and too few against everything else. They're *supposed* to be specialized options.


These are nice changes, apart from the last: your suggested change makes it too situational (strict conditions) while still too powerful (no reaction use) at the same time imo. Because depending on the creature, it can be a very heavy attack! So no use of a reaction seems plainly too much.Hm... that's a good point. Keep in mind, though, it's competing with Uncanny Dodge and Evasion.

What do you think about changing it to


When a creature attacks you, you can use your reaction to give yourself +2 AC against the attack. The AC can be added after the attack roll. If the attack misses you, regardless of whether the +2 AC made the difference, you can force the creature to re-roll the attack against a creature that is adjacent to you.


Apart from that, I would like to suggest others.

Colossus Slayer. When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, the creature takes 1d8 extra damage if it's below hit points maximum. You can deal this damage only once per turn on the same creature.
>>> This synergizes very well with Volley and Whirlwind, since it scales with the number of enemies you manage to hit: encourages tactical teamplay and smart positioning.

Whirlwind. Make the range equal to "weapon reach". Rewards more niche builds. :)
I think the Colossus Slayer is maybe too much, though maybe I'm overestimating. Potentially following up a fireball with a volley and dealing 1d8 extra damage to each creature, and similar things, may put that option too far above the others.

Whirlwind attack... maybe. I'm not sure I personally want to encourage halberd rangers. It would also limit a lot of builds, because you could no longer be a "whirling dervish" sort of Ranger, which I think would be a shame.


What if you could also cause fear during giant slayer, like he's scared of a giant killer?

Why can't rangers invoke fear into favored enemies, if not damage?


Very nice idea imo, flavorful and mechanically useful. I would put it at a higher level though, like an added feature, like at 7th at least, maybe even 11th.

Therefore explaining it as "while the Ranger was growing up to 11th level, it made so many great deeds and prowess, notably while fighting against his favored enemies, that he gained a sinister reputation of death bringer that squeezes courage out of even the bravest ones."
Or something like that... ;)
It's a neat idea, but a level of complexity that I don't want to deal with at the moment myself. Looking to keep the theme of the abilities the same.


How about making Giant Slayer relative to the PC race?

Whenever a creature at least 1 size larger than your race...
I think that runs the risk of making it only a good option for small PCs, thus limiting builds. Not sure that's a good thing.

[Citan]

What do you think about changing it to...
When a creature attacks you, you can use your reaction to give yourself +2 AC against the attack. The AC can be added after the attack roll. If the attack misses you, regardless of whether the +2 AC made the difference, you can force the creature to re-roll the attack against a creature that is adjacent to you.

I like this version better, because it keeps the economy costs but gives you a broader use, using it both for offense and defense. (It's actually quite close to a feature I designed for my homebrew ^^).
I put a part in strikethrough because, imo, it's not necessary for comprehension.



I think the Colossus Slayer is maybe too much, though maybe I'm overestimating. Potentially following up a fireball with a volley and dealing 1d8 extra damage to each creature, and similar things, may put that option too far above the others.

Whirlwind attack... maybe. I'm not sure I personally want to encourage halberd rangers. It would also limit a lot of builds, because you could no longer be a "whirling dervish" sort of Ranger, which I think would be a shame.

The thing with Colossus Slayer is, I proposed this change because I see so many threads about the Fighter being plainly better than Ranger even for pure archer or TWF, because it's supposedly so hard to create a situation where you can hit more enemies with Volley/Whirlwind than just Extra Attack.

This change rewards risk taking (Whirlwind) or tactical teamplay (Volley) by giving a nice increase in damage, but does not affect the (again, supposed) fundamental "flaw" of these attacks which is "how to group enemies in a close gap"?
Told in another way, the fact that there are so many complaints seems to indicate that in most situations, these special actions are just worse than plain Extra Attack. This change should at least make them on par, while stressing the "group fighter" aspect of the Ranger, increasing his distinction with Fighter.

Also, I don't understand your example: how could a Ranger do both Fireball and Volley on the same turn? Both take an action...

As for Whirlwind, the first time I thought about this change was for a whip build. :) But I agree your version is probably better because it affects all builds. (Or mix both? ;)).

[R.Shackleford]

I think that runs the risk of making it only a good option for small PCs, thus limiting builds. Not sure that's a good thing.

It really doesn't change the feature that much medium creatures. But it still stays good.

What it does, is it start making sense. Large to a medium creature is the same as a medium to a small creature.

Unless you want to make Giant Slayer a magical effect that somehow knows the creature is specifically large?

That feature doesn't work on the 8' Goliath but works on the 9' Ogre?

Seems weird.

[rudy]

I like this version better, because it keeps the economy costs but gives you a broader use, using it both for offense and defense. (It's actually quite close to a feature I designed for my homebrew ^^).
I put a part in strikethrough because, imo, it's not necessary for comprehension.
cool


The thing with Colossus Slayer is, I proposed this change because I see so many threads about the Fighter being plainly better than Ranger even for pure archer or TWF, because it's supposedly so hard to create a situation where you can hit more enemies with Volley/Whirlwind than just Extra Attack.It doesn't make me sad if the Fighter is a better straight Fighter than the Ranger is. Ranger has other things going for it. Relevant to what I'm trying to do here is to make the three choices available to the Hunter Ranger on the same level. I'm not making comparisons to the Fighter, especially because I'm making other changes to the base Ranger abilities. They're not really relevant to the Hunter adjustments, but if you're curious I put them in spoilers below, in their current WIP version.

Tool Proficiency: One of: Herbalism Kit, Cartographer's Tools, Navigator's Tools, Vehicles (sea OR land)

Favored Enemy. As vanilla, with the following changes:
Selections made at 1st, 6th, 10th, 14th, 18th.
Gain advantage on active Perception checks to look for signs of your favored enemies.
You may spend a bonus action to focus on one of your favored enemies within 90 feet that you can see, gaining 1d6 damage to weapon attacks made against that enemy until they are dead or you spend a bonus action to focus on another favored enemy. This damage does not stack with Hunter's Mark, and you cannot maintain concentration at the same time as this focus.
Humans (humans, half-orcs, half-elves) takes up an entire favored enemy slot, due to the wide variety of human cultures and martial practices.
Elves (includes high elves, wood elves, drow, half-elves) takes up an entire favored enemy slot due to the very distinct nature of Drow versus other elves. If you want JUST Drow, or JUST high&wood Elves, then that can be combined with another humanoid type as usual.

Primeval Awareness: Beginning at 3rd level, you can use your action to focus your attention on the region around you and sense the unnatural. You decide when you use your action what the radius of the awareness is, between five feet and 1 mile. The awareness lasts at least one round, and can last up to a maximum number of minutes equal to half your ranger level if you use concentration on it. For the duration of the awareness, you can sense whether any of the following creature types are within the radius: aberrations, celestials, dragons, elementals, fey, fiends and undead. This does not reveal the creatures’ location or number.
You can use this a number of times equal to 1+your wisdom modifier (min 1 use). When you finish a long rest you regain all expended uses.

Natural Explorer: As vanilla, with the following changes:
List of terrains now includes 'Ocean'.
When you make an Intelligence or Wisdom check related to your favored terrain, and are using a skill you are proficient in, you add twice your proficiency bonus.
At 6th level, select two more terrains.
At 10th level, by spending a long rest within another terrain type on the list, you can adapt to that terrain, treating it as one of your favored terrains until you adapt to a different terrain.
At 14th level, you may adapt to any naturally occurring terrain, including other planes of existence.
At 18th level, once you have adapted to a terrain it is permanently one of your favored terrains, even if you adapt to another.

Hide in Plain Sight (Camouflage): You can grant yourself and others the ability to blend in seamlessly by camouflaging them. Camouflaging a medium or small sized creature requires one minute each, and access to natural materials. As long as they are moving at no more than a slow travel pace, a camouflaged character gains advantage on stealth checks made to remain hidden. If they remain completely still, they receive an additional +5 bonus on Stealth checks. Camouflage is lost after 8 hours have passed, or if the creature leaves the terrain type, takes damage, or takes more than one of action/reaction/bonus action in a round.

Vanish: As vanilla, but with the following addition: "Additionally, when you are in a favored terrain, you can use your action to become invisible. You remain invisible until you make an attack, cast a spell, or leave your favored terrain."

Foe Slayer: Focusing (as described under Favored Enemy) on creatures of your favored enemy types no longer requires any action, and you can spend a bonus action to focus on a creature that is not one of your favored enemy types. Regardless of the creature type, you receive 1d6 bonus damage to weapon attacks (that does not stack with Hunter's Mark) against your focus target. Once per round you can add your Wisdom modifier to the attack roll of an attack you make against your focus target; you can choose to add it before or after the roll, but before the result is known.


This change rewards risk taking (Whirlwind) or tactical teamplay (Volley) by giving a nice increase in damage, but does not affect the (again, supposed) fundamental "flaw" of these attacks which is "how to group enemies in a close gap"?
Told in another way, the fact that there are so many complaints seems to indicate that in most situations, these special actions are just worse than plain Extra Attack. This change should at least make them on par, while stressing the "group fighter" aspect of the Ranger, increasing his distinction with Fighter.
Again, I'm not even trying to compare with the Fighter here, I'm merely comparing the different options of the Hunter with each other. Your change to Colossus Slayer, in my view, puts it above the other options at that level for the Hunter, and that is the comparison I'm interested in.


Also, I don't understand your example: how could a Ranger do both Fireball and Volley on the same turn? Both take an action...
I was referring to coordination with a teammate.


It really doesn't change the feature that much medium creatures. But it still stays good.

What it does, is it start making sense. Large to a medium creature is the same as a medium to a small creature.

Unless you want to make Giant Slayer a magical effect that somehow knows the creature is specifically large?

That feature doesn't work on the 8' Goliath but works on the 9' Ogre?

Seems weird.
Is it any weirder than the fact that a Halfling and a Goliath take up the same amount of space on a battle grid? In battle terms, Halflings, Humans and Goliaths are all the same "size".

[R.Shackleford]

Is it any weirder than the fact that a Halfling and a Goliath take up the same amount of space on a battle grid? In battle terms, Halflings, Humans and Goliaths are all the same "size".

1, that isn't the space they take up. That is the space they can effectively control. Huge difference there.

2, Halflings are small, they aren't the same size as humans and goliaths.

[rudy]

1, that isn't the space they take up. That is the space they can effectively control. Huge difference there.
No, that's just semantics. On the battlefield, you can't have two halflings in the same space that a goliath takes up. That's what I mean. It doesn't "make sense", just as a lot of things about size don't make sense.


2, Halflings are small, they aren't the same size as humans and goliaths.
I do know that, which is why I stressed in battle terms. On the battle grid itself, as combat plays out, there is very little practical difference between a small creature and a medium one. There are a few weapons they can't use, but the lack of many meaningful differences doesn't "make sense". If we try to apply real-life logic to how size plays out, we'd have to change a heck of a lot more than the Giant Slayer ability.

[Specter]

It really doesn't change the feature that much medium creatures. But it still stays good.

What it does, is it start making sense. Large to a medium creature is the same as a medium to a small creature.

Unless you want to make Giant Slayer a magical effect that somehow knows the creature is specifically large?

That feature doesn't work on the 8' Goliath but works on the 9' Ogre?

Seems weird.

The problem with that is balance. At level 3, a Halfling Hunter would have a feature that's similar to the Berserker's 14th-level Retaliation.

[R.Shackleford]

Two creatures can't take up the same space, however two creatures can be within the same 5' sqaure.

It'd called squeezing.

Ever try to walk with a dog next to you that keeps bumping into your legs? Annoying right? That's squeezing.




The problem with that is balance. At level 3, a Halfling Hunter would have a feature that's similar to the Berserker's 14th-level Retaliation.

That halfling is also Dex based at best and not using heavy weapons even if they are str based. 1d8 + 5? Maybe some sneak attack if they MC... Not a problem.

The reason the barbarian does so great with that feature is all the things that interact with it. Afvantage, heavy weapon, rage bonus damage, and anything I'm missing.

[rudy]

Two creatures can't take up the same space, however two creatures can be within the same 5' sqaure.
That's great, but I'm sorry to say it still doesn't make things work in a world where you expect size to "make sense". Halflings are 3 feet high. Goliaths are 8 feet high. Meaning that halflings are, at most, half as big as the Goliath in the different dimensions. Thus, two halflings standing next to each other in the same 5 foot square have the same relative amount of room as two Goliaths standing next to each other in adjacent 5 foot squares.

Small / Medium differences simply and plainly do not make sense in a battle grid sense. The only way that they would is if we divided up 5 foot squares into 2.5 foot squares, and said that small creatures only use one of them. But, unless we are prepared to do that, we have to accept that the game abstracts away a LOT of the "logical" differences between small and medium creatures.

[R.Shackleford]

That's great, but I'm sorry to say it still doesn't make things work in a world where you expect size to "make sense". Halflings are 3 feet high. Goliaths are 8 feet high. Meaning that halflings are, at most, half as big as the Goliath in the different dimensions. Thus, two halflings standing next to each other in the same 5 foot square have the same relative amount of room as two Goliaths standing next to each other in adjacent 5 foot squares.

Small / Medium differences simply and plainly do not make sense in a battle grid sense. The only way that they would is if we divided up 5 foot squares into 2.5 foot squares, and said that small creatures only use one of them. But, unless we are prepared to do that, we have to accept that the game abstracts away a LOT of the "logical" differences between small and medium creatures.

Again. You are mixing up size, space, and area of control.

The 5' grid doesn't exist in 5e, well, for the most part.

A creature can't be in the same space as another, because there is a physical thing stopping them from being in their space.

Size is just a metric for different races that give you general abilities based on your size.

A creature's area of control is based on this.

A creatite's actual size, shape, length, and dimensions are based on that specific creature.

A 7' Goliath doesn't take up the same space as a Halfling, but they can control the same area. If they are within 5' of each other then they are squeezing.

Of course the halfling could just climb onto the bigger creature.

[rudy]

I promise you I'm not mixing it up. This:


A 7' Goliath doesn't take up the same space as a Halfling, but they can control the same area.

is exactly what doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense that two halflings cannot be in the same five foot space without interfering with each other, while two Goliaths can be in adjacent squares while not interfering with each other. Proportionally the two situations are exactly the same.

I'm fine with that, because I've accepted that the game abstracts away from size in a lot of ways.

[R.Shackleford]

I promise you I'm not mixing it up. This:



is exactly what doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense that two halflings cannot be in the same five foot space without interfering with each other, while two Goliaths can be in adjacent squares while not interfering with each other. Proportionally the two situations are exactly the same.

I'm fine with that, because I've accepted that the game abstracts away from size in a lot of ways.

It makes complete sense.

Two halflings can be in the same 5' space. It is called squeezing. The reason why they must squeeze is because they both need 5' around them in order to work effectively.

You are mixing up the idea of a battle map (and the grid) with the idea of a creature outside of the grid.

There is no grid in 5e.

Swing around a sword or a stick sometime and then have a smaller person swing around the same stick... The size of the person doesn't matter when you are swinging around the same sized stick.

[rudy]

The reason why they must squeeze is because they both need 5' around them in order to work effectively.
I'm sorry, but I'm not capable of making the logical leap to where the amount of space a halfling needs around them to work effectively, and the amount of space a goliath needs around them to work effectively, are the same. Or a world where the weapons of the halfling and the goliath are the same size. You are apparently able to do so.

Again, I'm not complaining about the system, I just realize it's an abstraction.

[djreynolds]

How about if a ranger scores a critical hit, all favored enemies must roll a fear save versus the ranger's wisdom spell DC?

Call it, putting an enemies head on a pole.