Experience Solving Bladesinger's Squishiness?

[somehownotsingl]

Starting at level 12, an planning to go all the way to 20. Planning to stay Wizard (Bladesinger) for all 20 levels. While melee stuff will be secondary for this character, I do want him to be able to mix it up from time to time without getting murdered. He'll have high AC while in melee, of course (bladesong), and there are other tricks to deal with damage (e.g Absorb Elements spell, the bladesinger's Song of Defense, etc) ... but I'm looking at a dude with 81 HP at level 12. Ugh.

Since I have three ASI's at level 12, I thought about trying to partially solve this squishiness issue with a feat ... but I'm not sure which way to go. All three options below would help the problem in theory, but I'm wondering who has had to solve this problem in an actual campaign, and how they dealt with it.

Options I'm considering:

1) Resilient (CON). Bumps CON up to 16 (Assume 8 14 15 15 10 8 buy in for high-elf), so one extra HP per level starting at level 4. Not bad, and the CON prof is nice for a caster, but this guy will already have an INT bonus to CON (via bladesinger) at the times he's most likely to get hit.

2) Toughness: Straight up adding 2 HP per level is always nice. Assuming a 14 CON buy-in for this scenario, that's 1d6+4 HP per level. Not bad, I suppose.

3) Mobile: For now I'm going with "mobile" mainly because whatever you attack with melee (whether you hit or not!) cannot making AoO's against you for the rest of your turn. Sort of a poor man's "cunning action" without having to dip -- not to mention the extra 10 ft to help the getaway.


I could take more than one feat, of course, but the bladesinger build really seems like it ought to have 20 DEX/20 INT by level 20, leaving room for one feat.

So, what do you think? Am I missing anything? Should I skip the feat path altogether and just bump up INT or DEX to 20 by level 12 -- in other words, am I over worrying about the squishiness?

[Sir cryosin]

Well your not that squishy as you think you are if you use your spells properly. But you want a higher con and the tough feat. Your bladesong gives advantage to concentration checks so your find on that I'll put the ASI in dumping int, dex , or con.

[Sir cryosin]

I wouldn't worry too much about being squishy because if you get up into melee then you can activate your Blade song whith a high AC and shield spell your not getting hit.if we're going up against other spellcasters or whatnot used counterspell just to counter the spell so early and what and stuff like that don't hit you

[TurboGhast]

Have you considered Mirror Image? It's an extremely potent defensive option that lets you concentrate on other things at the same time.

[Belac93]

Mirror Image, Shield, Resilient: Con, Foresight, Stoneskin.

These are my recommendations.

[Oramac]

Really the only way to get more HP without multiclassing is going to be the Tough feat.

Other than that, you should actually be ok. With Bladesong and Shield your AC is actually pretty good.

[RulesJD]

1. Be a Half-Elf

2. Get Charisma to 13

3. Take 1 level of Warlock

4. Always cast Armor of Agathys out of your highest level slot available once it's depleted.

5. Problem solved.

[hymer]

So, what do you think? Am I missing anything? Should I skip the feat path altogether and just bump up INT or DEX to 20 by level 12 -- in other words, am I over worrying about the squishiness?

I think you may be over-worried. An erinyes is CR 12, has +8 to-hit and deals something like 23 points of damage per hit. Even at a rock bottom AC 19 (+3 dex, +3 int, +3 mage armor), it will hit half the time. Even if it hits with everything, it won't deal your hp pool in damage.

That said, Resilient is still an excellent feat if you have an uneven con score and are (about to be) level 9 or more. Mobile is more amusing.

[Oramac]

1. Be a Half-Elf

2. Get Charisma to 13

3. Take 1 level of Warlock

4. Always cast Armor of Agathys out of your highest level slot available once it's depleted.

5. Problem solved.


Planning to stay Wizard (Bladesinger) for all 20 levels.

It seems that he wants to avoid multiclassing.

================================

What sort of magic items are available in your game? If you're going to 20th level, presumably you might have access to a Defender? Or some other items that give a bonus to AC?

Or if you can get something that bumps your Con score up to 19 that would help your HP quite a bit as well.

[somehownotsingl]

So, it sounds like you guys are saying that I'm not likely to take significant damage all that often, given the various tricks of the class and various wizard defense spells. Maybe I'm being overly concerned about squishiness, since I'm not going to be dumb enough to play this guy like he's a meathead BSF. Maybe I shouldn't bother with a feat at all?

[Oramac]

So, it sounds like you guys are saying that I'm not likely to take significant damage all that often, given the various tricks of the class and various wizard defense spells. Maybe I'm being overly concerned about squishiness, since I'm not going to be dumb enough to play this guy like he's a meathead BSF. Maybe I shouldn't bother with a feat at all?

Taking the feat certainly wouldn't hurt, but if you play the character like he really is as smart as his high Int would suggest, then you shouldn't have nearly as big an issue as you might think.

[Citan]

Starting at level 12, an planning to go all the way to 20. Planning to stay Wizard (Bladesinger) for all 20 levels. While melee stuff will be secondary for this character, I do want him to be able to mix it up from time to time without getting murdered. He'll have high AC while in melee, of course (bladesong), and there are other tricks to deal with damage (e.g Absorb Elements spell, the bladesinger's Song of Defense, etc) ... but I'm looking at a dude with 81 HP at level 12. Ugh.

Since I have three ASI's at level 12, I thought about trying to partially solve this squishiness issue with a feat ... but I'm not sure which way to go. All three options below would help the problem in theory, but I'm wondering who has had to solve this problem in an actual campaign, and how they dealt with it.

Options I'm considering:

1) Resilient (CON). Bumps CON up to 16 (Assume 8 14 15 15 10 8 buy in for high-elf), so one extra HP per level starting at level 4. Not bad, and the CON prof is nice for a caster, but this guy will already have an INT bonus to CON (via bladesinger) at the times he's most likely to get hit.

2) Toughness: Straight up adding 2 HP per level is always nice. Assuming a 14 CON buy-in for this scenario, that's 1d6+4 HP per level. Not bad, I suppose.

3) Mobile: For now I'm going with "mobile" mainly because whatever you attack with melee (whether you hit or not!) cannot making AoO's against you for the rest of your turn. Sort of a poor man's "cunning action" without having to dip -- not to mention the extra 10 ft to help the getaway.


I could take more than one feat, of course, but the bladesinger build really seems like it ought to have 20 DEX/20 INT by level 20, leaving room for one feat.

So, what do you think? Am I missing anything? Should I skip the feat path altogether and just bump up INT or DEX to 20 by level 12 -- in other words, am I over worrying about the squishiness?
My opinion is that Resilient Con is always nice to have, but you get plenty of ways to help avoiding damage altogether.

If your focus is melee damage first, then bump equally DEX and INT to 18 or DEX to 20. Sacrifice 1 first-level slot for Mage Armor, now you have AC 18. When things get hot, cast Mirror Image. If things get even hotter in spite of that, use Shield. You should be very rarely hit by any attack.

If your focus is spellcasting, then take Resilient CON and bump INT to 18. As a main mean of defense if you feel too exposed, cast Blur. It's concentration, which is tough, but forcing disadvantage on all attacks against you is greater benefit than Mirror Image (which depends on DEX). You can then swap for a better spell later.

If you want to be balanced, take Resilient CON, bump INT and DEX equally, cast Mage Armor at start of the day, Haste as a basis, Mirror Image for hot fights. Considering your extra high roll on CON saves, chances are you won't lose Haste before the fight is finished, and you should have high enough defense to limit the number of hits taken anyways.

If you want to play duplicitous, take Lucky feat and cast Blink (just a joke, it would be too much of an investment). XD

Anyways: with DEX and INT at 18, considering Mage Armor and Bladesong active, you will have a better AC than a Paladin in heavy armor + shield (somewhere between 20 and 23).

And you can still stack Mirror Image on it, along with Blur/Haste/Blink/Greater Invisibility and Shield (or Defensive Duelist feat if you want to keep some slots).
You can also Fly away when things get dire. Or Polymorph yourself into something resilient when HP get low. Or Conjure an Elemental to keep enemies busy while you flee. Etc etc...
Yeah, sure, all this consumes spell slots, while you want to keep them to kill things. But still, it means you have plenty of options to avert the worst situation.

So I wouldn't worry so much. :=)

[RSP]

As I've seen them in play, BS tend to have a high enough AC that getting hit often isn't that big of an issue, particularly with any +AC magic items thrown in.

However, I'd suggest going Resilient Con, as others have covered. You'll have a +12 to the roll (+4 Prof, +3 Con and +5 Int assuming pumping ASIs into Int first to maximize spell DCs and whatnot) to auto pass most concentration checks from attacks that get through you AC+Shield. The added +level HPs is nice too

[Sigreid]

So, the way I read bladsinger, you're not supposed to not be squishy. When you do your ever impressive melee song and dance you are expected to get roughed up more than the real melee types and the price you pay for hanging in that realm is the spell levels spent negating damage instead of doing really cool magical stuff.

[Wakelord]

I recently played a bladesinger (though fighter 1/BS 5) and found survivability was either too hard or too easy. Super high AC, mobile feat and mirror image/shield meant I was rarely hit. But when I did finally get hit I was in trouble. It was a very fun build to play, focused primarily on Booming Blade and mobile.

[Nicodiemus]

If you're willing to burn a feat on mobile, consider dipping for swashbuckling. Then you get the same effect as mobile, plus SA damage that you can get off almost all the time, and a bonus to initiative if you don't dump Cha.

[NNescio]

If EE is on table (that is, you aren't going by AL rules which limits one splatbook at a time per character), Absorb Elements really helps against AoEs that bypass your AC.

There's also the Blink spell from core, and at later levels you'll get Contingency, which is ideally suited to be keyed to Hamster Ball Resilient Sphere.

[DivisibleByZero]

I completely disagree with the advice to take Resilient Con. You already get your Con mod, and your Int mod for concentration checks. That's just like having proficiency.
Take War Caster for advantage on those checks instead and it comes with other goodies as well. Take Tough and you have the HP of a Fighter.
Done. You aren't squishy anymore.

[jaappleton]

I completely disagree with the advice to take Resilient Con. You already get your Con mod, and your Int mod for concentration checks. That's just like having proficiency.
Take War Caster for advantage on those checks instead and it comes with other goodies as well. Take Tough and you have the HP of a Fighter.
Done. You aren't squishy anymore.

I also suggest Warcaster. It also lets you cast a spell as an opportunity attack... Booming Blade, anyone?

[Grod_The_Giant]

I completely disagree with the advice to take Resilient Con. You already get your Con mod, and your Int mod for concentration checks. That's just like having proficiency.
Take War Caster for advantage on those checks instead and it comes with other goodies as well. Take Tough and you have the HP of a Fighter.
Done. You aren't squishy anymore.
Yeah. If you don't want to be squishy, Toughness effectively increases your hit die to a d10 (average 3.5 to average 5.5), though you'll benefit less from short rests than normal. That plus Mage Armor should leave you in a fine place even without Bladesong.

[Citan]

I completely disagree with the advice to take Resilient Con. You already get your Con mod, and your Int mod for concentration checks. That's just like having proficiency.
Take War Caster for advantage on those checks instead and it comes with other goodies as well. Take Tough and you have the HP of a Fighter.
Done. You aren't squishy anymore.


I also suggest Warcaster. It also lets you cast a spell as an opportunity attack... Booming Blade, anyone?
Hmmm... A few problems with this.

1. Warcaster VS Resilient value for OP
He said that melee will be secondary for him. Plus he will stay Wizard all the way.
It means that dual-wielding will probably not be his thing, nor being in melee most of the time.
In this regard, considering Warcaster benefits:
- casting spells without somatic components: void, since OP will always keep a hand either free or with his focus.
- casting spells instead of opportunity attack: useful, but not too often since OP does not seem melee-heavy. Although Booming Blade is indeed a nice touch, especially paired with Mobile. :)

Now, considering Resilient benefit:
- bumps Constitution to even score, so +1 HP per level.
- gives proficiency, meaning ending with +6 (flat out better than advantage).

2. Problem of taking also Toughness
OP gets only 3 ASI, will start as a high Elf so with 16 DEX, 16 INT, 15 CON. If he takes both Warcaster and Toughness, it means he would get only one ASI left to bump stat.
Considering how INT is vital for everything, he would probably bump it first. So he would make Booming Blade with a DEX 16. Not bad at all, but still much lesser than with DEX 18. ;)
If he wanted after all to up DEX first, it means lesser DC on all his spells.

So, considering that, I'd say to OP:
- Either really play the melee offensive aspect of your Wizard, and up your melee: take Warcaster (with Booming Blade), Mobile, and increase your DEX, to rush as a breeze: you come in, hit then fall back, using Booming Blade as a reaction when you get the chance.
Mobile seems mandatory for me because you don't want to provoke opportunity attacks (Thoughness would do much less for your survivability in this point of view). You can even stack Haste if you feel confident (be aware of the aftereffects though, if you're the wrong place when it ends you are basically dead).

- Or focus on spellcasting part, using Bladesinger abilities solely for defense, and take Resilient:CON, bump INT once, and do whatever you want with the last (I'd recommend bumping INT or DEX obviously, but if you really are afraid to lack resilience, Toughness is indeed a good choice). ;)

[djreynolds]

Misty step is a bonus action spell. And at 18th level, this and shield could be signature spells, free basically. Mirror image and blur are awesome.

These 3 spells carried my ac 15 wizard his entire career.

Shocking grasp is a cantrip you must have.

You can have any spell in your spell book. Since you are beginning level 12 make sure your DM rolls for some wizard scrolls as you would have been seeking these out from levels 1-11.

Chain lightning and disintegrate are awesome.

When in doubt, misty step away.