Roy is definitely evil at this point

[multilis]

(this is a parody of the" Eugene is definitely evil at this point" thread)

Roy was smart enough to know that mages completely outclass fighters at higher levels. So what does he do? Become a fighter. Like that will help him save the world against evil mages.

Now we are near the end... X the mage is winning, Roy has failed to save every other gate. Only one last chance after "fail, fail, fail, fail..." A smart person like Roy should be able to see the trend, figure out the odds.

Not only that but screw up Roy has also given upper hand to a vampire to claim most of dwarves into Hel.

Roy could have listened to his father Eugene before and become a mage. Now Roy is given one last chance to listen to dad.

So what does Roy do? Gambles that X who has managed to destroy EVERY other gate will be stopped at last one. And dwarves somehow magically won't get all thrown for eternity in Hel for not dying fighting. (Ever lasting Afterlife is obviously worth vastly more than a few years of regular life)

Sounds like Roy is going to outstrip the worst of Belkar by orders of magnitude, rather than listen to dad. Belkar - Kill someone, kill a few, kill a hundred. Roy - odds are will either help send most dwarves to Hel for eternity or destroy entire afterlife for everyone, and Roy should be smart enough to figure that out.

Why? Quote from devil's advocate movie: "pride is (devil's) favorite sin". Too proud to listen to dad and become a mage rather than a fighter. Too proud to remember wisdom of his formerly good cleric and "kill all undead". Too proud to listen to LG Miko and not allow evil party members. Too proud to realise that after screwing up over and over again odds are against him winning in end, and result will probably doom for an entire race or entire world.

[dancrilis]

Gambles that X who has managed to destroy EVERY other gate will be stopped at last one.

Who has done what now?
Xykon has destroyed 0 gates, Redcloak indirectly destroyed 1, Elan destroyed 1, Miko destroyed 1, and Roy destroyed one.

So far from the corner alignments CE is the only one that has not destroyed a gate (LG - or those trying to be LG depending on alignment change - has destroyed 2).

Seperately you have made a case for Roy lacking wisdom not for him being evil.

[multilis]

Who has done what now?
Xykon has destroyed 0 gates, Redcloak indirectly destroyed 1, Elan destroyed 1, Miko destroyed 1, and Roy destroyed one.

So far from the corner alignments CE is the only one that has not destroyed a gate (LG - or those trying to be LG depending on alignment change - has destroyed 2).

Seperately you have made a case for Roy lacking wisdom not for him being evil.
Indirectly X has caused destruction of all gates. (X obviously wanted something different as well, but easy to see the trend... X tries to control a gate and gate gets destroyed over and over again, so odds are that happens at last gate as well)

So you are going for the "Lawful stupid" defense of Roy who has shown to be anything but stupid? Even the brain sucker saw him as a full meal deal, only V looked tastier.

[DaggerPen]

You know that parodies only work if they successfully illustrate the flaw in the source material, right? It has to in some way represent taking the logic of the source to its inevitable conclusion and using that to show that it's fundamentally unsound or horrifying. Making up nonsensical claims in a way that doesn't mirror and comment on the flaws in the source is just making up nonsensical claims.

[dancrilis]

So you are going for the "Lawful stupid" defense of Roy who has shown to be anything but stupid? Even the brain sucker saw him as a full meal deal, only V looked tastier.

No I am saying that your arguement is flawed in how you made it.

Here Roy is actually Chaotic Evil, we will ignore the first 100 strips for this analysis as many consider them to suffer from being early installment items.


A chaotic evil character does whatever his greed, hatred, and lust for destruction drive him to do. He is hot-tempered, vicious, arbitrarily violent, and unpredictable. If he is simply out for whatever he can get, he is ruthless and brutal. If he is committed to the spread of evil and chaos, he is even worse. Thankfully, his plans are haphazard, and any groups he joins or forms are poorly organized. Typically, chaotic evil people can be made to work together only by force, and their leader lasts only as long as he can thwart attempts to topple or assassinate him.

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0125.html) we see early on that Roy is happy to take the law into his own hands for personal gain, despite being in a town which likely has a legal system. This scene is important for a few reasons but for now it highlights that Roy is ruthless and does not have a respect for local laws (note how there is a nearby jail as evidenced by Nale's presence).
Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0250.html), and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0251.html) we see him arbitrarily reject authority he was happy to accept earlier when he felt it might aid him in satisfing his lust, he later follows this up by provoking Miko at every turn - and seems to be far more instrumental in her fall than Belkar.
Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0379.html) he takes liberties of with a paying clients resources leading to the deaths of one individual where he shows no guilt or remorse (or even an offer to pay for the resurrection).
Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0430.html) his plan of jumping onto a dragon is haphazard at best.
Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0534.html) he seems to attempt to strangle an elderly woman and is only prevented by his incorporeal state - which indicates a hot temper (to a homicidal degree).
Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0664.html) he flat out ignores a celestial who was trying to tell him something that the upper planes felt was important (I was considering using him not telling Belkar about his death to be a fairly ruthless but I found this strip first).
Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0745.html) he advocates in favour of torture (worth noting the correlation to the first link above - over 600 strips prior.
Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0880.html) he is instantly murderous of a defenceless person who has been loyal to him for a long time over bad news - news he actually doesn't believe.
Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0944.html) he shrugs off the greatest act of genocide since the Snarl destoryed the previous world.
Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1018.html) he seeks to destroy beings who have done no harm and who were not even attacking anyone.

There a strip from every section of a hundred since 100 to ignore early oddities - and showing a clear pattern of behaviour that could be regarded as Chaotic Evil.

[hamishspence]

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1018.html) he seeks to destroy beings who have done no harm and who were not even attacking anyone.


Vampires charging people shouting "So thirsty" in response to a senior vampire's "You know what to do" is not "attacking"?

[dancrilis]

Vampires charging people shouting "So thirsty" in response to a senior vampire's "You know what to do" is not "attacking"?

See Panel 1. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1022.html)

[hamishspence]

They weren't attacking him. They were attacking the clerics.


Here he takes liberties of with a paying clients resources leading to the deaths of one individual where he shows no guilt or remorse (or even an offer to pay for the resurrection).

Roy probably thinks that people who Drink And Teleport bring it upon themselves.

[dancrilis]

They weren't attacking him. They were attacking the clerics.
That is even less likely - as it would have the offending vampires breaking the cevenant panel 4 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1022.html), and we know that some clerics did defend the vampires.



Roy probably thinks that people who Drink And Teleport bring it upon themselves.
Which indicates that the group he formed was poorly organised, it also shows a callous disregard for life - the Wizard was clearly drunk and Roy got him to teleport anyway.

[multilis]

You know that parodies only work if they successfully illustrate the flaw in the source material, right? It has to in some way represent taking the logic of the source to its inevitable conclusion and using that to show that it's fundamentally unsound or horrifying. Making up nonsensical claims in a way that doesn't mirror and comment on the flaws in the source is just making up nonsensical claims.
Your claims that my claims are nonsensial are nonsensial, just like you I don't have to bother to say why because I am obviously right and you are wrong.

Only the Sith deal with absolutes say the Jedi who deal with absolutes.

[DaggerPen]

Your claims that my claims are nonsensial are nonsensial, just like you I don't have to bother to say why because I am obviously right and you are wrong.

Only the Sith deal with absolutes say the Jedi who deal with absolutes.

If your claims were not deliberately nonsensical then I further question how your post constitutes a 'parody'. I thought we were all in agreement that "Roy is chaotic evil for not multiclassing, killing a seemingly nonhostile vampire he believed to be his friend, and allowing him to (as fad as Roy knew) keep trying to save the world" was, in fact, deliberately ludicrous, and the point of disagreement was over whether it in any way constituted a rebuttal to the arguments that Eugene is CE.

[Deliverance]

Vampires charging people shouting "So thirsty" in response to a senior vampire's "You know what to do" is not "attacking"?
No, it is not.

We saw them running in a direction that was towards their High Priest; we saw them being attacked from in front, and we saw them being attacked from behind once they managed to bypass the people who were attacking them. We did not see them defend themselves, and we did not see them attacking anybody or charging people.

In other words, based on observed behaviour, the thing that they "knew to do" was to run to their High Priest as swiftly as possible. Given that this also perfectly fits the High Priest's plan, which was conveniently revealed to the reader and revolved on getting as many vampires as possible to join him in his bubble to teleport out with him, your idea that the vampires were attacking people at the conclave itself doesn't have a leg to stand on.

[hamishspence]

The point is that Roy's assumption that it's an attack, is a logical one, even if it's not correct.

The others present make the same assumption "If they can attack the administrators, so can we".

[Monito]

Roy can't be evil, because that would make Thog good. Quid quo gopro.

[martianmister]

Never assume malice when stupidity will suffice.


So far from the corner alignments CE is the only one that has not destroyed a gate (LG - or those trying to be LG depending on alignment change - has destroyed 2).

Now that's just sad...

[Deliverance]

The point is that Roy's assumption that it's an attack, is a logical one, even if it's not correct.

There's no evidence that Roy assumed that the running vampires were attacking him or anybody else at the meeting in #1018. He may have, he may not, and I'll certainly grant you that it would be a natural thing for him to assume given his position between them and the vampire high priest they were running towards, but he doesn't say either way; the one thing we are sure of is that he starts attacking them and points out that only one vampire present, the current high priest, is protected by the rules of the Godsmoot.



The others present make the same assumption "If they can attack the administrators, so can we".
You are missing the point of that statement in #1018 entirely. It does not imply that the high priestess believes the vampires are attacking at the moment - in fact, it does not refer to what the vampires are doing in #1018 at all.

The high priestess's comment in #1018 refers to the administrators (the Creed of the Stone) having been previously attacked and turned into vampires, pointing out that since Hel's side could attack the administrators, so can they. It is rules lawyering in the best tradition of D&D, equating the vampires with the administrators they vamped for the purpose of target eligibility.

We have been given no indication whatsoever what the high priests at the meeting thought the vampires were doing in #1018; From a practical perspective, it probably wasn't important to them either; Since the vampires were part of Hel's plan, whatever the high priests thought the vampires were doing, an excuse for destroying them would be a godsend.

[Burner28]

Roy is Chaotic Evil, Elan is Lawful Evil, and Xykon is Lawful Good. Just so we're all clear on that, people.:smallwink:

[Kantaki]

Roy is Chaotic Evil, Elan is Lawful Evil, and Xykon is Lawful Good. Just so we're all clear on that, people.:smallwink:

Does that mean Belkar is a Paladin*?:smallbiggrin:

*In the "paragon of all that is lawful and good"-sense, not necessarily the class.