Can a wizard scribe extra cantrips?

[Klorox]

We're playing through Curse of Strahd, and the party found a spellbook. Can the party wizard scribe these extra cantrips?

[MrConsideration]

I would rule no, because I'm pretty sure RAW draw a distinction between 'spells' and 'cantrips'.

It probably wouldn't break the game, though.

[XmonkTad]

RAW definitely not. It might break the game depending on what rules were made around cost of scribing cantrips.

Personally, I just wouldn't allow it.

[Coffee_Dragon]

It would make sorcerers cry more than they already do.

[Reynaert]

There shouldn't be any cantrips in that spellbook you found to begin with. RAW, you don't write your cantrips into your spellbook, you just 'know' them. So no spellbook has cantrips in them.

[rudy]

I would allow the wizard to scribe and treat them as 1st level spells if they wished to, including the use of slots to cast them.

But, as everyone else has said, by RAW you're out of luck.

[Ruslan]

A spellbook does not include cantrips. This was in the official PHB errata.

[Callin]

Wait. The easiest to learn spells you cant even write down? That has got to be the stupidest thing I have ever heard.

[Dalebert]

I've seen this a number of times that adventure material by WotC has spellbooks that list cantrips. I think what you could possibly do is allow the wizard to learn one of those cantrips the next time he advances a level that gives him a new cantrip known. It won't matter usually but if it gives him access to cantrips he wouldn't otherwise have access to. But you don't scribe cantrips so it's really bizarre.

[rudy]

Wait. The easiest to learn spells you cant even write down? That has got to be the stupidest thing I have ever heard.
Weeeelllllll.......... to be fair, the problem with cantrips is that they scale with power so that they are both weaker than, and stronger than, 1st level spells in a weird way.

A homebrew idea I've been kicking around though is to make wizards scribe and prepare cantrips just like all their other spells. Might help curb their power relative to sorcerers a bit, in addition to making it more "logical".

[Sigreid]

I don't think it would be unbalancing to let wizards prepare cantrips like spells. Would add to book keeping. Might make some of the other casters look enviously at their flexibility. I do think it would be logical thought. I also think it would make just as much sense to allow clerics and druids, basically any prepared caster, do the same.

[rudy]

I don't think it would be unbalancing to let wizards prepare cantrips like spells. Would add to book keeping. Might make some of the other casters look enviously at their flexibility. I do think it would be logical thought. I also think it would make just as much sense to allow clerics and druids, basically any prepared caster, do the same.
I don't think the game needs changes that make casters as a whole more powerful and flexible. Especially when you consider that cantrips scale with your level, this is not the same as giving extra cantrips in 3.5e.

Now, if you limit it, say, and let people prepare extra cantrips that: 1. Use up a 1st level or higher spell slot and 2. Do not scale in power with your class level, then I think it should be fine.

[Sigreid]

I don't think the game needs changes that make casters as a whole more powerful and flexible. Especially when you consider that cantrips scale with your level, this is not the same as giving extra cantrips in 3.5e.

Now, if you limit it, say, and let people prepare extra cantrips that: 1. Use up a 1st level or higher spell slot and 2. Do not scale in power with your class level, then I think it should be fine.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I don't think it's necessary at all. I just don't think it would be a huge impact to the power levels.

[rudy]

Oh, don't get me wrong. I don't think it's necessary at all. I just don't think it would be a huge impact to the power levels.
Casters: "Oh, hey martial classes? Remember how one of your few advantages is how you don't have to worry nearly as much about resource limitations? Yeah, we've decided to beat you on that, too."

[Sigreid]

Casters: "Oh, hey martial classes? Remember how one of your few advantages is how you don't have to worry nearly as much about resource limitations? Yeah, we've decided to beat you on that, too."

Well, the limitations would be the same on the resources as you could never have more cantrips at a time than shows on your class table. And if you were unhappy with your current load you would have to complete a long rest to change them out. It wouldn't actually change the available resource calculation on any given adventure day.

I think the main impact would be "Oh, we're going after the Abominable Snowman of Abominableness tomorrow? I guess I'll switch Ray of Frost to Fire Bolt in the morning." Which I could see annoying the DM more than the party.

[Elminster298]

Oh, don't get me wrong. I don't think it's necessary at all. I just don't think it would be a huge impact to the power levels.

I think a pretty good compromise would be to allow wizards to scribe cantrips giving them the ability to swap out ONE of their cantrips when they prepare spells for the day. To balance this, allow clerics and druids the ability to "float" a cantrip the same way exchanging one when they prepare spells. All other casters can permanently swap out ONE cantrip when they level in addition to the normal spell they can swap out when they level. This gives a universal power spike to all casters in keeping with their normal class features. It does make all casters more powerful which furthers the gap between casters and non-casters but not by enough to make casters any more of a knee-jerk pick than they are already.

[Klorox]

Thanks everybody. I thought it might be unbalancing to have more cantrips, and I'm glad RAW, we can not have more.

But they are listed as being in the spellbook of a character in this official module, which is where the confusion began for me.

[RickAllison]

I am in the camp that if a wizard can find written cantrips on their class-list (possible through scrolls or the spellbook of someone who has found scrolls of it), they can cast it as a 1st-level spell. They require some amount of magic, but the wizard hasn't put the effort forth with these simple spells to recycle the energy back into themselves. Thus, it still takes the minimum quantum of energy the caster can unleash, a 1st-level slot.

[MaxBoguely]

Casters: "Oh, hey martial classes? Remember how one of your few advantages is how you don't have to worry nearly as much about resource limitations? Yeah, we've decided to beat you on that, too."

I'm not sure I get this? A wizard would have already had cantrips, almost certainly including at least one go-to damage cantrip for rounds where he doesn't want to spend a spell slot. If the wizard finds more cantrips, he can still only cast one of them per round. It might make him more "flexible," I guess, but I don't see how it would make him "stronger."

Unless I am misunderstanding. Which I probably am.

[RickAllison]

I'm not sure I get this? A wizard would have already had cantrips, almost certainly including at least one go-to damage cantrip for rounds where he doesn't want to spend a spell slot. If the wizard finds more cantrips, he can still only cast one of them per round. It might make him more "flexible," I guess, but I don't see how it would make him "stronger."

Unless I am misunderstanding. Which I probably am.

Some fun cantrips that are useful enough that wizards would love them, but also hard to take all of due to go-to cantrips that are more universally useful:

Control Flames. Yes, I would love to be able to render any flammable buildings totally aflame in minutes, or to be the world's greatest firefighter. Not to mention freaking out people by creating magical images in the flames that make you look like gods...

Gust. Push things around to where you need them. Get keys off a hook, create distractions as you send an important item flying out the window. Less useful than other cantrips, but a wizard could certainly have days where he would love to have this instead of Firebolt.

Mold Earth. Dig fortifications, till fields, create canals, and speed up travel. Whenever you are traveling through rough terrain caused by bad footing (one of the more likely scenarios), this increases your travel speed by 1.33X! That may not seem like much, but it could be the difference between capture and escape.

Shape Water. There are entire threads on how to abuse this one. Make dozens of javelins using two actions that last for an hour, sculpt out a natural river moat for your castle (so it doesn't become plagued with diseases), and even bring it into pre-constructed molds with dirt from Mold Earth to Transmute Stone and get a thick, high-damage absorbing stone wall.

Those are just from the EEPC. Shape Water is one in particular that has potentially vast power in one scenario, but is all but useless in another. The ability to switch it in and out accordingly is a significant boon.

[Citan]

I'm not sure I get this? A wizard would have already had cantrips, almost certainly including at least one go-to damage cantrip for rounds where he doesn't want to spend a spell slot. If the wizard finds more cantrips, he can still only cast one of them per round. It might make him more "flexible," I guess, but I don't see how it would make him "stronger."

Unless I am misunderstanding. Which I probably am.
I second this.

@OP: if you're the DM, I'd say allow it. After all, you ARE the DM, so it's up to you to decide what was in the spellbock... Isn't it?

For me, the only true problem of freely allowing extra cantrips is overshadowing someone else in the group.
Beyond that, it's the Wizard defining feature to be able to learn extra spells, and he certainly already knows cantrips of similar "power" so why not...

Although I also 100% agree on the idea that Wizard can not have more cantrips "prepared" than the number indicated in class table. So he could write them to "not forget them" but would have to choose whichever he wants for the day.

[Klorox]

I second this.

@OP: if you're the DM, I'd say allow it. After all, you ARE the DM, so it's up to you to decide what was in the spellbock... Isn't it?

For me, the only true problem of freely allowing extra cantrips is overshadowing someone else in the group.
Beyond that, it's the Wizard defining feature to be able to learn extra spells, and he certainly already knows cantrips of similar "power" so why not...

Although I also 100% agree on the idea that Wizard can not have more cantrips "prepared" than the number indicated in class table. So he could write them to "not forget them" but would have to choose whichever he wants for the day.
I'm playing a wizard, and there's a Bladesinger in the party as well.

The DM said we found a spellbook, and he'd email us all the spells after the session. We got the list, which included cantrips.

I asked "are you sure we can scribe cantrips" and the DMs answer was "dude, you know I don't play casters. *Can* you scribe extra cantrips?"

I couldn't find the answer so I started this thread.

[Citan]

I'm playing a wizard, and there's a Bladesinger in the party as well.

The DM said we found a spellbook, and he'd email us all the spells after the session. We got the list, which included cantrips.

I asked "are you sure we can scribe cantrips" and the DMs answer was "dude, you know I don't play casters. *Can* you scribe extra cantrips?"

I couldn't find the answer so I started this thread.
Aaah ok, sorry for my misunderstanding.
Well then, my advice would be to inform your DM that it is not authorized by RAW, but allowing it as a houserule with the aforementioned suggested limitation (you have to choose "prepared cantrips" as you would spells) should be fun and fine for everyone.

Then accept without regret whatever outcome of your proposition is. :)

[Klorox]

Aaah ok, sorry for my misunderstanding.
Well then, my advice would be to inform your DM that it is not authorized by RAW, but allowing it as a houserule with the aforementioned suggested limitation (you have to choose "prepared cantrips" as you would spells) should be fun and fine for everyone.

Then accept without regret whatever outcome of your proposition is. :)

We both feel the same way, since the DMs rotate sometimes; we all just want to follow RAW.

[Sigreid]

For me, the only true problem of freely allowing extra cantrips is overshadowing someone else in the group.
Beyond that, it's the Wizard defining feature to be able to learn extra spells, and he certainly already knows cantrips of similar "power" so why not...



I understand that there are "William Shantners" that feel the need to steal the scene, but my wizards don't generally prepare spells to do things that someone else in the party can already reliably do.

[RickAllison]

I understand that there are "William Shantners" that feel the need to steal the scene, but my wizards don't generally prepare spells to do things that someone else in the party can already reliably do.

Seems rather redundant, actually...

[Vogonjeltz]

Casters: "Oh, hey martial classes? Remember how one of your few advantages is how you don't have to worry nearly as much about resource limitations? Yeah, we've decided to beat you on that, too."

Other than cantrips being totally inferior to weapon attacks.

[Saeviomage]

If a wizard woke up each morning and picked his cantrips from the ones he'd scribed into his book, very little would change. Occasionally, when you, the DM, had telegraphed the need for a specific damage type or something like mending, the wizard might have those cantrips. Big deal.

[Kurt Kurageous]

Big deal.

This.

I expected to find a rule somewhere in PHB stating you can copy a cantrip into your spell book for the same cost as a 1st level spell (50 gp) and cast it like you know it. No such rule exists. But it should.

A cantrip is a mini-spell, a demi-spell or semi-spell, however you define it. All three terms have spell in it. So treat it like a 1st level spell.

It takes no effort to cast a cantrip for a wizard who practices it. Letting an unpracticed wizard cast it using a first level slot makes sense. They need to put more magical energy into the spell because they are inefficient at casting it due to their lack of practice.

I propose a limit of cantrips ready equal to the max known at that level. These ready cantrips can be cast without using a spell slot. Non-ready cantrips to be cast using a level 1 slot.

Let's hear from the arbiters of balance. But please remember, we are talking about wizards and their spellbooks. Dear Arbiters, please think how many times in all your years of gaming have you even found another wizard's spellbook?

[Strill]

It's not canon or RAW, but the way I deal with this in my games is that, for wizards at least, cantrips involve some kind of body modification which allows them to be cast indefinitely. Think of it as rearranging your chi pathways or somesuch. The details can be different for any given wizardly tradition. Imagine things like tattoos, hallucinogenic potions, injections of dragon's blood, or strange symbiotic creatures. As you acquire more and more cantrips, it becomes increasingly difficult to add another without messing up the older ones.

Cantrips can therefore be recorded and cast as 1st-level spells, but to make them at-will, you'd need to "learn" them properly by taking the appropriate body modifications.

[JWT]

Here's the limitation as I see it. Why on Earth would a wizard pay money to put a spell on paper when they have unlimited castings of it? i

If you think about it there should never be a scroll with a cantrip put on it. Unless you have some benevolent spellcaster out there willing to spend gold on ink and parchment so some poor schlub caster can get a hold of a new cantrip.

[JackPhoenix]

Here's the limitation as I see it. Why on Earth would a wizard pay money to put a spell on paper when they have unlimited castings of it? i

If you think about it there should never be a scroll with a cantrip put on it. Unless you have some benevolent spellcaster out there willing to spend gold on ink and parchment so some poor schlub caster can get a hold of a new cantrip.

Because there are useful cantrip that won't fit into the few cantrips known, and people are willing to pay to have access to them.

Also:

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/831325411032683345/7A96F58D4FE7BC086E86262C75AC93EDAB7DC9AD/

[Roland St. Jude]

Here's the limitation as I see it. Why on Earth would a wizard pay money to put a spell on paper when they have unlimited castings of it? i

If you think about it there should never be a scroll with a cantrip put on it. Unless you have some benevolent spellcaster out there willing to spend gold on ink and parchment so some poor schlub caster can get a hold of a new cantrip.Sheriff: Please don't revive threads that haven't been posted in recently (last 45 days).