I have a problem with my succubus

[MrStabby]

I introduced a succubus NPC into my campaign, although the players don't know it.

Not the sexy kind of succubus though.

Just an ordinary merchant who goes to the tavern at the end of the day. Tells a sob story about how worried she is about feeding her children with the price of food rising and all that, then spring comes and now things have improved.

She has heard about some treasure buried deep and knows of a map to it, if the players are prepared to steal it. They did and a short dungeon later they come back with some loot.

Next up, a couple of weeks later in game time, she is back. There is a crypt with a powerful spellbook in it and a number of rare gems. She proposes the wizard gets the spellbook and she gets the gems. This time the key is a heirloom to a city guard and he refuses to give it up. There is a fight. It is another fun little side-quest.

Now the paladin steps up and asks her if she might be able to find him a new weapon. So up till now I had been keeping her away from the cleric and the paladin that might care about their alignment. Being tempted into doing evil acts by the succubus seemed a decent enough side plot as long as it wouldn't mess with the party too much. Now the paladin IC doesn't know they have been doing Bad Stuff (and OOC has no idea about the NBC being a fiend), he is guilt free so far. The succubus will try and tempt him to evil as well, just a little bit at a time. My concern is that he may not pick it up quickly enough and may not like the result.

So my options are:

1) Follow the Succubus plan and slowly tempt him with power, contacts that can give him titles and ranks within his order etc.. If he is successfully tempted, give him some atonement to do.

2) Follow the succubus plan but push just a little too hard. A bit too evil too quickly. The Character is a little more likely to say no.

3) Try giving just a few clues that there is a fiend about - enough to trigger a use of the detect evil/good ability.

Which approach do you guys find most rewarding/least annoying as a player? The wizard will probably not mind so much as I am not challenging an integral part of his character.

[NecroDancer]

It depends how much spotlight the Paladin has gotten already

[MrStabby]

It depends how much spotlight the Paladin has gotten already

A good point. This group only has 4 players so there is quite a bit of spotlight to go round. The rogue has had quite a bit with all the stealing and the wizard has just got a new spellbook. Paladin has had less spotlight than the rogue and wizard but probably a bit more than the cleric.

[Elminster298]

I introduced a succubus NPC into my campaign, although the players don't know it.

Not the sexy kind of succubus though.

Just an ordinary merchant who goes to the tavern at the end of the day. Tells a sob story about how worried she is about feeding her children with the price of food rising and all that, then spring comes and now things have improved.

She has heard about some treasure buried deep and knows of a map to it, if the players are prepared to steal it. They did and a short dungeon later they come back with some loot.

Next up, a couple of weeks later in game time, she is back. There is a crypt with a powerful spellbook in it and a number of rare gems. She proposes the wizard gets the spellbook and she gets the gems. This time the key is a heirloom to a city guard and he refuses to give it up. There is a fight. It is another fun little side-quest.

Now the paladin steps up and asks her if she might be able to find him a new weapon. So up till now I had been keeping her away from the cleric and the paladin that might care about their alignment. Being tempted into doing evil acts by the succubus seemed a decent enough side plot as long as it wouldn't mess with the party too much. Now the paladin IC doesn't know they have been doing Bad Stuff (and OOC has no idea about the NBC being a fiend), he is guilt free so far. The succubus will try and tempt him to evil as well, just a little bit at a time. My concern is that he may not pick it up quickly enough and may not like the result.

So my options are:

1) Follow the Succubus plan and slowly tempt him with power, contacts that can give him titles and ranks within his order etc.. If he is successfully tempted, give him some atonement to do.

2) Follow the succubus plan but push just a little too hard. A bit too evil too quickly. The Character is a little more likely to say no.

3) Try giving just a few clues that there is a fiend about - enough to trigger a use of the detect evil/good ability.

Which approach do you guys find most rewarding/least annoying as a player? The wizard will probably not mind so much as I am not challenging an integral part of his character.

I would absolutely go as subtle as you can and take it as far as the character will go. Any competent player playing a paladin who falls for your plot will either 1) realize he needs to pay better attention to his character motivations or 2) learn to use his/her "ribbon" abilities in addition to the combat abilities. I genuinely don't see a down side to going through with the charade to the best of your ability. At the end of the day, the players are responsible for the choices they make. Sometimes you should be harsh in reminding them of this.

P.S. I love your use of subtlety as a DM. You don't see it as much these days as I used to in my youth.

[Sigreid]

Tempt him as best you can. Don't go easy on him. It sucks when you know you only made it through because the DM coddled you.

[Elminster298]

Tempt him as best you can. Don't go easy on him. It sucks when you know you only made it through because the DM coddled you.

^^^This...all day.^^

Also, as a player, if I got lax in role-playing my character and turned into "just another meatshield/sword arm" I would welcome the slap-in-the-face-welcome-back-to-the-game.

[MrStabby]

Ok, so if I am going to go evil on this guy I may as well go full evil.

I think that the better temptation might be pride and revenge and just use the greed for a magic item as lubrication.

The PCs are staying at the inn so the PCs being observed by the Succubus shouldn't be a problem.

The succubus can also disguise self at will.

She will, in disguise allege that the Paladin is a criminal - a murderer is a good baseline. She will also leave some evidence in the form of witnesses that the real perpetrator was the person (a noble) she is disguised as. Nothing too strong though.

The Paladin will have his reputation ruined and, although free to go after an inconclusive investigation, will no longer hold the ranks and rights he has earned.

Later the Paladin will be given an offer by the succubus, who was apparently approached by a contact, to acquire information about who the perpetrator/accuser is and where they live from one of his servants that is being interrogated as part of a gang war. She says it should only take an hour or so of questioning to get the information.

If the Paladin accepts this, then information will be given about the estate. This will include a warning about the security arrangements including the alarm systems. If they enter the estate they are likely to be (although they may avoid being) discovered by more of the (unarmed) servants of the noble who will try and raise the alarm. The estate plans will also show some nice treasure rooms holding not only much of the noble's wealth but also a magic sword, the family heirloom of his wife. It is possible that there may be some casualties among the servants at this point. It is also possible that he may steal from the noble's wife. If he/the party makes it to the noble and confront him, the noble will deny everything (and zone of truth will reveal this denial to be true) and shout for help. It is possible there may be more violence at this point.

The sword will be identifiable as magical but will not reveal all of its properties immediately. The succubus, being a known contact for specialist magical items may be consulted. If she is (and expecting this she will be making herself available). If she is consulted she will report that the sword was from an old warrior who fought the warlike tribes to the north/south/east/west. To stop it falling into enemy hands it loses it's power when it leaves the possession of it's wielder and can be attuned by killing someone in one of the tribes it was created to defend against. If the PCs can be persuaded to talk about their main quest the succubus will name one of the tribes conveniently close to where they say their next objective is, else one is picked at random. Possibly more violence might happen.

If the weapon is awoken and attuned, it will be a chaotic evil sentient weapon - which might help put some perspective on what may have happened on the way.

From an evil perspective the best result is the Paladin:

Condones and causes the further torture of the captured servant
Killing of the unarmed servants in the estate, with no evidence of wrongdoing (escape is also a viable option so no self defense excuse here)
Killing the noble with minimal evidence of a crime and without proper trial
Theft of a family heirloom from the noble's wife
Going to a tribe for no other purpose than to kill them to enhance personal power
All of this begun out of pride and to seek revenge.

The Paladin can back out at any stage, can be suspicious at any stage, can try and find alternative resolution at any stage.

Too contrived? Is it evil enough? Is it likely any paladin would fall for this?

[Elminster298]

snip

I would totally say that if you are going full evil, give the succubus a ring of mind shielding. It's an uncommon magical item and mostly ribbon but fits the situation well. As a bonus, if the paladin falls for your ruse, it gives an item that would allow him/her to roleplay the change for a pretty good amount of time If done right.

[Reaper34]

looks good. a thought. put the sword on the noble somehow activated. a detect alignment would see both a good/nutral and a (slightly)evil aura around the noble. by the time the fight is over. it's just a sword(not activated). make the sword the belong to the noble and his bloodline is immune to the evil nature of the sword and the family are it's guardians. the sword has a fiend possessing it/trapped in it. the succubus wants her "friend" back in the hands of "someone worthy". Tribe is in a low level war with orc tribes and prevent the orks from raiding "civilized" lands.


hmmm this turned into more spitball than just a thought but hey take it and run with it or not glad to help if i did.

[Laserlight]

Tempt him as best you can. Don't go easy on him. It sucks when you know you only made it through because the DM coddled you.

I don't mind coddling players when the monsters are rolling crits left and right; but in this case, there's no reason to go easy. Any trouble the paladin gets into will be a result of his own choices.

Just be fair about what you consider "evil". Towards the end of Gardemore Abbey, when we'd collected most of the cards from the Deck of Many Things, we were hired by a paladin to do an escort quest. At the end of that, the paladin demanded we give him all the cards we'd gathered, then attacked when we refused. The DM's reasoning was "Bahamut had promised him a draw from the Deck as his reward for the quest, so you were thwarting Bahamut's will, which is evil."

[Sigreid]

Towards the end of Gardemore Abbey, when we'd collected most of the cards from the Deck of Many Things, we were hired by a paladin to do an escort quest. At the end of that, the paladin demanded we give him all the cards we'd gathered, then attacked when we refused. The DM's reasoning was "Bahamut had promised him a draw from the Deck as his reward for the quest, so you were thwarting Bahamut's will, which is evil."

It's gonna be a good harvest this year. That's some grade A fertilizer right there!

Unless he'd played in his head that this is how that paladin fell.

[Laserlight]

It's gonna be a good harvest this year. That's some grade A fertilizer right there!

Unless he'd played in his head that this is how that paladin fell.

I commented "So, the LG paladin of an LG god is okay with committing armed robbery against his own employees?", but the DM was convinced he was justified. Not even "Yeah, it's weak but I need you to fight him."

So, OP, hammer your paladin for moral infractions...but get a sanity check on whether they're actually infractions.

[MrStabby]

looks good. a thought. put the sword on the noble somehow activated. a detect alignment would see both a good/nutral and a (slightly)evil aura around the noble. by the time the fight is over. it's just a sword(not activated). make the sword the belong to the noble and his bloodline is immune to the evil nature of the sword and the family are it's guardians. the sword has a fiend possessing it/trapped in it. the succubus wants her "friend" back in the hands of "someone worthy". Tribe is in a low level war with orc tribes and prevent the orks from raiding "civilized" lands.


hmmm this turned into more spitball than just a thought but hey take it and run with it or not glad to help if i did.

My reason for making the sword the property of the family, not the noble is that then there can be no mitigating factor in it's theft. If the paladin believed the noble guilty then stealing the sword in not so much of an issue. Stealing from someone who he has no evidence at all of having done something wrong is just that bit more clearly inappropriate.

OK, so everyone has put me back on the proper patch of being an Evil DM. No making things easy - the paladin has invited his own temptation and we shall see how it plays out.