Skill Expertise and Tool Expertise Feats

[Isidorios]

So, I am introducing some Feats to my game.

The first I am pretty well satisfied with:
Skill Expertise-Devoted practice and natural affinity have made you extraordinarily talented with a single skill. You gain proficiency with it, or if you are already proficient, you gain expertise and may add double your proficiency bonus when using that skill. Gain +1 to the attribute associated with that skill. You may take this feat multiple times, but not for a skill you already have expertise in.

Virtuosity- You are extraordinarily talented in the use of a single Artisan's Tool, Musical Instrument or Gaming Set. Alternately, you can apply this to a single type of performance (dance, song, comedy, ect) You may add double your proficiency to skill checks in that pursuit. Gain +1 to your choice of Intelligence, Wisdom or Charisma.
With sufficient time, expenses and a study or workshop, you can attempt to create a significant work of art. The successful creation of a significant work will reward you with wealth, or can instead be used to gain Reknown with a guild or local Fame. The monetary reward for a significant work requires access to a City-sized population center. Failure results in an rather ordinary work that is worth 1/10th of the initial cost.
Create Extraordinary Work - DC 20 time: 30days. Cost 100 gp. Success 750 gp
Create Great Work - DC 25 time: 30 days. Cost 250 gp. Success 2,500 gp
Create Masterpiece - DC 30 time: 30 days. Cost 500 gp. Result 7,500 gp
(The time and money investment represents staging a Tournament for Gaming Sets, or a large public presentation for MI or other performances.)

Deft Hand- You are finely practiced in the use of a particular set of equipment. Choose one Kit from the PHB, you may add double your proficiency bonus when using this Kit. Gain +1 to a single ability score.

Modification: Climber's Kit- Using this set of gear, you may roll to climb using your Dexterity modifier.

Second-Story Tools- These specialized Thieves' Tools allow you to use your Intelligence or Dexterity modifier to climb, in addition to any proficiency bonus from with Thieves' Tools. They are not easily concealable, and are recognized contraband in most civilized settlements. Cost: 25gp.


What's the opinion on the rest, particularly the Artisan proficiency Feat?

It's my intent to offer a good alternative to "dipping" into Rogue for gaining significant talent in a single skill. Of course Rogues can also expand their Expertise with these Feats as well. And I think it offers some extra skill utility to the Fighter with his expanded number of Feats.

[Isidorios]

Also, what's a good alternative name for Skill Expertise?

[Elminster298]

So, I am introducing some Feats to my game.

The first I am pretty well satisfied with:
Skill Expertise-Devoted practice and natural affinity have made you extraordinarily talented with a single skill. You gain proficiency with it, or if you are already proficient, you gain expertise and may add double your proficiency bonus when using that skill. Gain +1 to the attribute associated with that skill. You may take this feat multiple times, but not for a skill you already have expertise in.

Virtuosity- You are extraordinarily talented in the use of a single Artisan's Tool, Musical Instrument or Gaming Set. Alternately, you can apply this to a single type of performance (dance, song, comedy, ect) You may add double your proficiency to skill checks in that pursuit. Gain +1 to your choice of Intelligence, Wisdom or Charisma.
With sufficient time, expenses and a study or workshop, you can attempt to create a significant work of art. The successful creation of a significant work will reward you with wealth, or can instead be used to gain Reknown with a guild or local Fame. The monetary reward for a significant work requires access to City. Failure results in an rather ordinary work that is worth 1/10th of the initial cost.
Create Extraordinary Work - DC 20 time: 30days. Cost 100 gp. Success 750 gp
Create Great Work - DC 25 time: 30 days. Cost 250 gp. Success 2,500 gp
Create Masterpiece - DC 30 time: 30 days. Cost 500 gp. Result 7,500 gp
(The time and money investment represents staging a Tournament for Gaming Sets, or a Presentation for MI or other performances.)

Deft Hand- You are finely practiced in the use of a particular set of equipment. Choose one Kit from the PHB, you may add double your proficiency bonus when using this Kit. Gain +1 to a single ability score.

Modification: Climber's Kit- Using this set of gear, you may roll to climb using your Dexterity modifier.

Second-Story Tools- These specialized Thieves' Tools allow you to use your Intelligence or Dexterity modifier to climb, in addition to any proficiency bonus from with Thieves' Tools. They are not easily concealable, and are recognized contraband in most civilized settlements. Cost: 25gp.


What's the opinion on the rest, particularly the Artisan proficiency Feat?

It's my intent to offer a good alternative to "dipping" into Rogue for gaining significant talent in a single skill. Of course Rogues can also expand their Expertise with these Feats as well. And I think it offers some extra skill utility to the Fighter with his expanded number of Feats.

Skill expertise and virtuosity(though I would rename it virtuoso in memory of the 3.5 prestige class) are pretty good as is.

I would rename deft hand to deftness and say you may use you dex for athletics checks. It makes dex EVEN MORE powerful than it already is but it is thematically appropriate. It's up to the DM TO use it or not. Plus make it +1 to dex. Not your choice. It BARELY limits its usefulness.

Second story tools I would rename to something along the lines of insightful thievery. This would allow you to use your intelligence for climb, lockpick, disable trap, and MAYBE use magic device at an appropriate penalty. I think you should be able to do it, but not as well as a rogue.

[Isidorios]

I would rename deft hand to deftness and say you may use you dex for athletics checks. It makes dex EVEN MORE powerful than it already is but it is thematically appropriate. It's up to the DM TO use it or not. Plus make it +1 to dex. Not your choice. It BARELY limits its usefulness.

Second story tools I would rename to something along the lines of insightful thievery. This would allow you to use your intelligence for climb, lockpick, disable trap, and MAYBE use magic device at an appropriate penalty. I think you should be able to do it, but not as well as a rogue.

I was specifically trying to avoid replacing the attribute associations with skills, and instead giving a tool-based alternative to them. I see Climbing with Athletics/Strength to be the finger and toes climbing of a powerful warrior up a sheer surface, whereas a well-tuned climbing kit would allow a dexterous character to scale that same cliff with his nimbleness. Free climbing requires some coordination to be sure, but it's primarily a function of Strength (and Endurance to be sure). If you want to ninja up a wall like a Kung Fu film, you should be using Monk Abilities or suchlike, IMO.

Second Story Tools were intended to be a specialized subset of Thieves' Tools that allow Rogues to scale buildings or other challenges through clever use of collapsing rods, nekode or other clandestine gear, and not meant to be a "now you can just climb with DEX/INT" because that's not really appropriate.

Rogues are already the guys who pick open doors with tools rather than bash them down with Strength, I feel it's highly appropriate that they climb walls the same way. They aren't Spider-Man.

[Isidorios]

Also, you can reply in quotes without linking the ENTIRE post,=, :smallbiggrin:

[Elminster298]

Also, you can reply in quotes without linking the ENTIRE post,=, :smallbiggrin:

I meant to "snip" the post. It was my mistake that I didn't.

[smcmike]

They all seem pretty reasonable to me. The artisan feats might not fit in at some tables, just in terms of campaign style, but if they would fit at yours, I don't see anything wrong with them.

[Elminster298]

snip

I like the idea of keeping things separate and that's why I added a "penalty" to the checks. That means that it will take you longer unless you roll exceptionally well. It means you can use intelligence but it will take you a longer time to work around a "stregth based" skill check. With bounded accuracy it makes it much less likely any check will succeed with any form of penalty much less a -5 which was my initial thought.

[Isidorios]

snip

The Second-Story Tools aren't intended to be their own Proficiency, they are intended to be specialized accessories that use the Thieves' Tools proficiency, used to scale/climb. You just pay to have these extra tools which aren't as concealable as the smaller tools associated with unlocking/disarming. Thus they are already going to be DEX/INT based by default. Having expertise in Thieves' Tools will give you expertise in Second Story Tools


I should have called them "Second Story Gear" to avoid confusion on them being their own proficiency I suppose.

[Isidorios]

They all seem pretty reasonable to me. The artisan feats might not fit in at some tables, just in terms of campaign style, but if they would fit at yours, I don't see anything wrong with them.

I tried to make them compatible with the Magic Item crafting rules and Art Object tables that already exist. You can make valuable stuff less expensively than an actual magic item; but of course at the end of the day you don't have a wand, you have a really, really nice Violin or Dresser, or Composition or Vase. If you succeed at the roll, of course.

Clearly, anyone who's going to spend all year making Ming Vases isn't an adventurer but a professional Artisan. I just felt this would be a good way to make the Artisan's tools and the rest of the background proficiencies a bit more useful while keeping the rules fairly simple.

[smcmike]

Sure, I just don't imagine myself taking the artisan feats at the cost of a feat slot.

[Elminster298]

Sure, I just don't imagine myself taking the artisan feats at the cost of a feat slot.

The way the fears are described, they will be chosen situationally. You would only choose them if the campaign warranted it. Otherwise you have better options than a feat.

[RickAllison]

The way the fears are described, they will be chosen situationally. You would only choose them if the campaign warranted it. Otherwise you have better options than a feat.

Indeed, I believe somewhere in the DMG it states that a feat is an option for an alternative reward. So those feats might be something that you learn from a master artisan/adventurer/legendary figure.

[Elminster298]

Indeed, I believe somewhere in the DMG it states that a feat is an option for an alternative reward. So those feats might be something that you learn from a master artisan/adventurer/legendary figure.

If you are a DM opting for an optional rule, I think these feats would work as is. I do think there are a couple balancing/RP aspects that could be refined but they are pretty much good. The reliance on a master for these over other feats might be too restrictive and only necessary based on campaign.

[RickAllison]

If you are a DM opting for an optional rule, I think these feats would work as is. I do think there are a couple balancing/RP aspects that could be refined but they are pretty much good. The reliance on a master for these over other feats might be too restrictive and only necessary based on campaign.

I would be thinking that it is up to the players on how they want to achieve it. If they want to seek out the master as a sidequest, it could be an appropriate award. If they want to take a sidequest to learn more about [skill or tool] through innovation and/or learning from the original source, that is just as valid a reasoning. Meanwhile, they could instead just opt to take it as an actual feat so they have total control. It keeps options open for those who needed to take feats to still have their RP feats while those who did choose RP feats may instead find more conventional feats (an Iaijutsu master could teach the Alert feat to the person who decided being a master smith was more important than picking up Medium Armor Mastery, for example). It is about giving more options, not fewer.