Builds with Dumped Main Abilities

[RickAllison]

This thread is simple: make builds (and also characters, if you want!) who defy expectations by dumping their main abilities. Some abilities are fairly obvious (casters are dumping casting stats, fighters dump both Strength and Dexterity, etc.), but for an added challenge can also dump secondary stats like Dexterity for Lore Bards. These should be viable builds in that they can actually be played, but they certainly don't have to be as good as more optimized builds. Provide as many or as few facts as you desire, you just need to have enough explanation so others can see how it is a viable build. Here are a few that I have either created or seen around:

The Necro-Knight. Necromancer who wears heavy armor because he lets his minions fight for him and so doesn't care about loosing cantrips during combat.

The Nature Knight: Fighter with high Wisdom who takes the Magic Initiate (Druid) feat to gain Shillelagh and Magic Stone. Shillelagh allows for melee combat that is as good as any other long sword+shield fighter, while Magic Stone allows for Wisdom to also be used to engage at range using a sling. Champion is the archetype, allowing for a focus on grabbing feats to empower both sides of combat and boosting Con if you don't want any more. Alternatively, grab Eldritch Knight and gain versatility in combat and outside.

[Jamesps]

I'm actually playing a fighter right now that fits this description. I rolled stats and got one 18 and all the rest pretty terrible.

Character: Toth, 8th level Hill Dwarf Fighter (Monster Hunter) Folk Hero

Strength: 9
Constitution:14
Dex: 10
Charisma: 8
Intelligence: 7
Wisdom: 20

Feats: Magic initiate (magic stones, shillelagh, entangle), Resilient Wisdom
Fighting Style: Dueling

His background is that he's an ancient adventurer nearly 300 years of age (equivalent to a 70 something year old human) who's out on one last foray into the world to relive his glory days. He's pretty feeble, moderate senility, but with an underlying cunning that has kept him alive for the past few months of his renewed career.

[rudy]

Does dumping Int as an Eldritch Knight / Arcane Trickster count, or is that too easy?

[smcmike]

I'm actually playing a fighter right now that fits this description. I rolled stats and got one 18 and all the rest pretty terrible.

Character: Toth, 8th level Hill Dwarf Fighter (Monster Hunter) Folk Hero

Strength: 9
Constitution:14
Dex: 10
Charisma: 8
Intelligence: 7
Wisdom: 20

Feats: Magic initiate (magic stones, shillelagh, entangle), Resilient Wisdom
Fighting Style: Dueling

His background is that he's an ancient adventurer nearly 300 years of age (equivalent to a 70 something year old human) who's out on one last foray into the world to relive his glory days. He's pretty feeble, moderate senility, but with an underlying cunning that has kept him alive for the past few months of his renewed career.

Nice. AC is a problem, though, right?

Edit - yes I see I was wrong.

[Klorox]

A moon druid can function without a high WIS just fine (I mean, he better with a higher WIS, but it isn't the end of the world if it's low). In this edition, there are actually many good spells that do not involve hit rolls or saving throws, making casters still decent without high casting stats.

[rudy]

Bard 4 (College of Valor)
Wood Elf
Str 12 Con 14 Dex 16 Int 12 Wis 14 Cha 8
Background: Outlander
Skills: Athletics, Survival, Perception*, Acrobatics, Sneak*, Insight
*'s have expertise
Feat: Longshot

Idea is to avoid spell choices that have saves, so a lot of buffs. Though some, like heroism, would actually hurt my allies. Only real crappy thing, and the reason I wouldn't play this build, is only one bardic inspiration die.

Wears breastplate now, but will switch to Studded Leather when Dex is boosted at level 8.

[RickAllison]

Does dumping Int as an Eldritch Knight / Arcane Trickster count, or is that too easy?

You decide! Obviously extra brownie points if you do dump it, but that is a personal challenge :smalltongue:


Nice. AC is a problem, though, right?

Nope. He was playing a dwarf and a Fighter. That means he has access to heavy armor and his speed isn't decreased by doing so (speed reduction by 10' is the only penalty for having less than the requisite Str for heavy armor). With a shield, he is rocking 20 AC when he can afford plate.


A moon druid can function without a high WIS just fine (I mean, he better with a higher WIS, but it isn't the end of the world if it's low). In this edition, there are actually many good spells that do not involve hit rolls or saving throws, making casters still decent without high casting stats.

Ahhh yes, Moon Druids. Can dump physical stats and even mental. Still, not so fun when the druid is the one who gets Dominate Beast cast on him and he begins Calling Lightning on the party...

I want a player to do this, so so bad.

[Belac93]

What about character builds with low Constitution? Pretty much makes you either a archer, or someone with no concentration spells.

[RickAllison]

What about character builds with low Constitution? Pretty much makes you either a archer, or someone with no concentration spells.

Constitution isn't really a main stat for anyone. It is a stat that can be dumped for an increased challenge, but doesn't really change how classes play. Casters really don't want to get hit (except for Warlocks going with Armor of Agathys strategies) and neither do archers. I suppose it is a fair challenge to design a melee combatant with low HP...

[smcmike]

Bard 4 (College of Lore )
Mountain Dwarf
Str 18 Con 16 Dex 13 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 8
Background: Sage
Skills: Arcana, History (Expertise), Athletics (Expertise), Insight, Acrobatics, Religion, Perception, Intimidation.
Feat: Tavern Brawler

The Sage background requires a bit of fiddling: he's an autodidact, with obsessive knowledge of the history of boxing, wrestling, and tavern culture. In combat he self-buffs and grapples, or buffs his team. His goal in life is to be the first person to pin a dragon.

[smcmike]

Nope. He was playing a dwarf and a Fighter. That means he has access to heavy armor and his speed isn't decreased by doing so (speed reduction by 10' is the only penalty for having less than the requisite Str for heavy armor). With a shield, he is rocking 20 AC when he can afford plate..

Ahh. You know, I didn't even realize dwarves ignored the penalty for being too weak for your armor. Nice.

[R.Shackleford]

Vhuman Soldier Shadow Monk 6

Str: 16
Dex: 10
Con: 16
Int: 12
Wis: 11
Cha: 10

Athletics, Investigation, History, Religion, Intimidation

(Posted from non-official character builder)
Human Features:
• One extra skill proficiency of your choosing
• One bonus feat of your choosing
Soldier Feature:
• You have influence within your former army/organization
Class Features:
• Add Wis mod to AC when not wearing armor or using a shield
• When unarmed or using monk weapons, can use dex for attack and damage rolls, unarmed strikes deal more damage (d4), and can make an unarmed attack as a bonus action after normal attack action
• Weapon Master: You gain four weapon proficiencies and +1 to either Str or Dex
• You gain a reservoir of energy (ki points = monk level) which is restored during a rest
• You can use a bonus action and spend 1 ki point to make two unarmed strikes right after using the attack action
• You can use a bonus action and spend 1 ki point to Dodge
• You can use a bonus action and spend 1 ki point to Dash or Disengage and double the distance you can jump
• When you are not in armor or using a shield your speed improves by 10 feet
• When you are hit by a ranged weapon attack you can use a reaction to reduce the damage by 1d10 + Dex mod + Monk level, and you can catch and throw the weapon if you would take 0 damage (see rules)
• Monk Archetype: Shadow
• You can cast minor illusion, and can spend 2 ki points to cast darkness, darkvision, pass without trace, or silence
• You can use a reaction to reduce fall damage by 5 x Monk level
• Great Weapon Master: You can make a bonus action attack after critting or killing a creature and you can take -5 to a melee attack for +10 damage
• You can spend 1 ki point when you hit a creature with a melee attack to force it to make a Con save or be stunned for a round
• You can make two attacks on your turn
• Your unarmed attacks ignore resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks/damage
• As a bonus action you can teleport from one area of shadow to another within 60 feet, and gain advantage on the first melee attack that turn


From SRD

"Stunning Strike

Starting at 5th level, you can interfere with the flow of ki in an opponent’s body. When you hit another creature with a melee weapon attack, you can spend 1 ki point to attempt a stunning strike. The target must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or be stunned until the end of your next turn"

I don't see "monk weapon" ;)

Your AC is going to suck, yes, however you are a shock trooper.

You teleport in, GWF attack w/advantage, and stun the sucker on a hit. Then just walk away or keep beating then to death.

As a reaction you can reduce ranged attack by 1d10 + Monk Level (your Dex will stay 10).

[Tanarii]

Bardic war-scout: College of Valor, Max Str, Dex 14, max con. Stealth, Investigation, Perception, Soldier Background.

Get all the Bard Dvination spells (16/16 Bard spell slots), throw in 6 non-Bard divinations with your Magical Secrets. (Augury, Arcane Eye, Divination, Contact Other Plane / Commune / Commune with Nature.)

Alternately (since you don't really need *that* much divination), sprinkle in obvious scout assisting spells like Invisibility, Pass Without Trace.

Also there are some non-divination divinations-like spells to consider. Speak with Plants, Speak with dead.

Edit: some of those divinations probably use Cha and need to be avoided. Detect Thoughts does for example. When I first though up this build it was Cha 12 with one ASI to 14 or something like that, so it wasn't completely dumped Cha.

[ES Curse]

imo, Shilleagh builds are kind of cheating and way too easy. Clerics and Druids are also way too easy to play with low Wisdom because they have a lot of buffs and either get Wild Shape or weapon attacks. For something REALLY odd:

High Elven Dragon Sorcerer
10,16,14,16,12,8

From the get-go, take a dependable damage cantrip such as Firebolt. It's going to be your main source of damage. You will be spamming cantrips, augmented by Sorcerer buff spells and Metamagic. At 4th level, you can take Magic Initiate to get 2 more wizard cantrips, but should probably stick to ASIs after that.

[Sir cryosin]

Nice. AC is a problem, though, right?

No dwarfs don't need str to wear heavy armor. Nobody really need str if you don't have the str you take -10 to speed.

[Tanarii]

High Elven Dragon Sorcerer
10,16,14,16,12,8

From the get-go, take a dependable damage cantrip such as Firebolt. It's going to be your main source of damage. You will be spamming cantrips, augmented by Sorcerer buff spells and Metamagic. At 4th level, you can take Magic Initiate to get 2 more wizard cantrips, but should probably stick to ASIs after that.
Good one.

Dragonborn can only use Breath Weapon once per Short Rest, or you could do a max Con build based around it.

But yeah clear racial winners are:
Dwarves using Str, racial weapons and SCAG cantrips
Elves using Str/Longsword or Dex/Shortsword with SCAG cantrip.
High Elves using Int/Cantrip

Clear class winners are spellcasters that provide access to SCAG cantrips and/or Extra Attack, and armor or defensive buff spells.

How would you even make an effective martial stat dumper? Dex Barbarians / Paladins, and Str Ranger / Rogues are all perfectly fine builds, but I'm not sure that's what RickAllison had in mind for the challenge.

How about: Barbarian / Rogue, Expertise in Athletics, uses attacks to grapple? Might be doable with advantage and expertise.

[Sir cryosin]

A Thief rogue with high wisdom and con. Take magic initiative pick Thorn whip and guidance for the first lv spell it's hard for me to pick from entangle, Care wounds, good Berry Earth tremor. Then pick up ritual caster. For fights your damage is going to be Thorn whip. If you really want to be cheesy you could grad sheleighleigh and use a club to get sneak attack. Guidance is for your checks to replace dex so your stealth, sleight of hands and all those other Rogue checks are not terrible for dumping dex and what not.

[Tanarii]

Does the dump stat have to stay dumped? With 5 ASIs, you can pump an 8 up to an 18 by level 19.

[Sir cryosin]

Does the dump stat have to stay dumped? With 5 ASIs, you can pump an 8 up to an 18 by level 19.

I think the hole point of this exercise. Is to come up with a build that is some what effective with out pumping your main stat.

[RickAllison]

I think the hole point of this exercise. Is to come up with a build that is some what effective with out pumping your main stat.

Indeed, it's about showing how builds can be viable even when their stats really don't match up with normal setups.

[Tanarii]

Okay makes sense. Besides the other way is basically just handicapping by forcing players to spend ASI for less PB value. (Ie it's more value in terms of PB points to spend an ASI increasing high scores than low scores.)

[Tanarii]

A Thief rogue with high wisdom and con. Take magic initiative pick Thorn whip and guidance for the first lv spell it's hard for me to pick from entangle, Care wounds, good Berry Earth tremor. Then pick up ritual caster. For fights your damage is going to be Thorn whip. If you really want to be cheesy you could grad sheleighleigh and use a club to get sneak attack. Guidance is for your checks to replace dex so your stealth, sleight of hands and all those other Rogue checks are not terrible for dumping dex and what not.
Gotcha.

So the ways to utilize off-ability score attacks so far are:
1) Bard, Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Warlock &Wizard can use Str or Dex. Some races and classes work better due to proficiencies or access to SCAG cantrips.
2) High Elf can use Wizard Cantrips for Int cantrips. (Or SCAG cantrips)
3) Magic Initiate feat allows any class to use Wis, Int or Cha cantrips. (Or SCAG cantrips.)

Edit: I was about to add Warlock Pact of the Tome, when I remembered they use their primary Cha stat for those cantrips.

[bid]

You teleport in, GWF attack w/advantage, and stun the sucker on a hit.
Who'd fail a DC12* Con save?

* Level 5 prof (+3) and Wis11 (+1)

[rudy]

Who'd fail a DC12* Con save?

* Level 5 prof (+3) and Wis11 (+1)

DC 11, actually. Wis 11 is +0.

[R.Shackleford]

Who'd fail a DC12* Con save?

* Level 5 prof (+3) and Wis11 (+1)

I do admit I had a few drinks before making that but...

Creatures with horrid saves of course. Creature saves aren't all that great, which is one of the reasons spells (supernatural effects) are so bomb.

Even if you don't rely on Stunning Strike, you are still an annoying teleporting creature that can pack some pain.

[Hrugner]

Wisdom heavy rogue with magic stones and a sling to launch them from is pretty good. Super high perception of course, and sneak attack works since you are making an attack with a ranged weapon.

[Bohandas]

A little while back I worked out that a paladin could have epic spellcasting by around level 30 if they kept taking improved spell capacity until they met the spell level requirement.

From then on they could rely on that as their primary source of both combat effectiveness and healing

[JellyPooga]

It's a bit of an obvious one, but...

Mountain Dwarf "Runesmith"

Abjurer Wizard 17/Goo-Pact Tomelock 3

High Scores: Str, Con
Med Scores: Dex, Wis
Hard-dumped Scores: Cha, Int

Invocations: Armour of Shadows, Eldritch Sight
Spells Known: Armour of Agathys, Hellish Rebuke, Hex, Misty Step

Wizard Spellbook: Every non-Int required spell available (there are many)

Armour of Shadows is only there to maintain your Arcane Ward at-will; you'll actually be wearing medium or heavy armour. Spring for Heavy Armour proficiency if you want, but you've got Medium Armour from your Race and can wield a big ol' hammer too. Armour of Agathys up-cast as high as 8th using Wizard slots (wasting a 9th level slot on AoA is folly) gives you a tasty buffer and combined with Hellish Rebuke and Fire Shield makes it horrific for anyone that dare strike you. Tome Pact and Eldritch Sight is just for flavour *shrug*; choose something better if you want.

The build would probably like better Int and Cha, but doesn't actually need either. Magic makes up for a lot of lack in the melee department and little of it requires Concentration, making you surprisingly tankish for a Wizard and leaves your Concentration free for Animate Objects (or similar) to do most of your mid-high level heavy lifting.

[Goober4473]

The Nature Knight: Fighter with high Wisdom who takes the Magic Initiate (Druid) feat to gain Shillelagh and Magic Stone. Shillelagh allows for melee combat that is as good as any other long sword+shield fighter, while Magic Stone allows for Wisdom to also be used to engage at range using a sling.

I love this and want to play it.


It's a bit of an obvious one, but...

Mountain Dwarf "Runesmith"

Abjurer Wizard 17/Goo-Pact Tomelock 3

High Scores: Str, Con
Med Scores: Dex, Wis
Hard-dumped Scores: Cha, Int

Technically you couldn't multiclass, sicne wizard requires Int 13 and Warlock 13 Cha to qualify (in either direction).

[georgie_leech]

A little while back I worked out that a paladin could have epic spellcasting by around level 30 if they kept taking improved spell capacity until they met the spell level requirement.

From then on they could rely on that as their primary source of both combat effectiveness and healing

Pst, wrong subforum.

[Bohandas]

Pst, wrong subforum.

Dang! You're right!

[RickAllison]

I love this and want to play it.



Technically you couldn't multiclass, sicne wizard requires Int 13 and Warlock 13 Cha to qualify (in either direction).

I had originally considered allowing stats up to 13 so multiclassing could occur, but then I figured it was more fun to see it without go-to builds like Warlock 2/Anything and grabbing EB.

[2D8HP]

Play a High Elf Fighter, or Rogue with a relatively low STR or DEX, but a high INT and the Firebolt Cantrip.
INT is your attack stat and your weapon does 1d10 damage!
You get either Second Wind and Heavy Armor proficiency, or Sneak Attack and Expertise.
Not too shabby!

[RickAllison]

Play a High Elf Fighter, or Rogue with a relatively low STR or DEX, but a high INT and the Firebolt Cantrip.
INT is your attack stat and your weapon does 1d10 damage!
You get either Second Wind and Heavy Armor proficiency, or Sneak Attack and Expertise.
Not too shabby!

Do keep in mind that you don't get to use Sneak Attack with Firebolt.

[2D8HP]

Do keep in mind that you don't get to use Sneak Attack with Firebolt.

D'oh!
:frown:
(I just recently started a High Elf Rogue PC, oops)..

[Tanarii]

Play a High Elf FighterEK for more cantrips and other attack spells. Once you get war magic you can even cantrip followed by a somewhat abysmal Heavy Crossbow attack, albeit with +2 extra to hit from Archery Style. Effectively a Dex 14 instead of Dex 10 for the attack. Might as well H Xbow instead of Longbow, since you're probably never going to use Extra Attack.

Don't forget you're moving slower because you don't have the Str to wear Heavy Armor.

[Arkhios]

EK for more cantrips and other attack spells. Once you get war magic you can even cantrip followed by a somewhat abysmal Heavy Crossbow attack, albeit with +2 extra to hit from Archery Style. Effectively a Dex 14 instead of Dex 10 for the attack. Might as well H Xbow instead of Longbow, since you're probably never going to use Extra Attack.

Don't forget you're moving slower because you don't have the Str to wear Heavy Armor.

That's not entirely true. You can wear Ring mail (AC 14), which doesn't require a base Str at all, and Chainmail (AC 16) requires only Str 13. Splint (AC 17) and Plate (AC 18) do require Str 15 however.
With Dex 14 you'd be better off with a medium armor, though.

As for my own silly build with dumped main ability:

Mountain Dwarf Warlock, Blade Pact:
17, 14, 17, 8, 10, 8
Proficiency with medium armor, and three pretty decent martial versatile weapons.
Pick spells that only buff you, and the Armor of Agathys, obviously.
Invocations that are completely viable with or without charisma:
Armor of Shadows until you get scale mail, breast plate, or half-plate.
Ascendant Step can't be too bad?
Beast Speech doesn't require a saving throw.
Devil's Sight.
Eldritch Sight.
Eyes of the Runekeeper.
Fiendish Vigor.
Gaze of Two Minds.
Lifedrinker will give you +1 necrotic damage even if your charisma was abysmal. You don't absolutely need this, but if you find you can spare an invocation for it, it's always a welcome bonus.
Master of Myriad Forms.
One With Shadows.
Otherwordly Leap.
Thirsting Blade invocation for Extra Attack.
Visions of Distant Realm.
Whispers of the Grave.
Witch Sight.

From PHB alone, Great Old One patron is not only fitting, is also perfectly viable with a low charisma warlock, and since your Charisma is low, you're stuck with playing a warlock.
If you have access to SCAG, Booming Blade is perfectly viable and could even be worthy replacement for Thirsting Blade. And the Undying Patron has only one ability that relies on your Charisma, but it's not a big boon, so you'll be perfectly fine if it doesn't protect you.

[Tanarii]

That's not entirely true. You can wear Ring mail (AC 14), which doesn't require a base Str at all, and Chainmail (AC 16) requires only Str 13. Splint (AC 17) and Plate (AC 18) do require Str 15 however.
With Dex 14 you'd be better off with a medium armor, though.High Elf Fighter dumping his primary stats means Str 8 and Dex 10. Good call on Ring Mail, but it's probably worth considering just eating the -10ft speed (down to 20ft) to get the higher AC for Chainmail (and higher once you can afford it).

Edit: although Half-Plate for AC 15 might be sufficient if you can use the extra speed to stay the hell out of melee. :)

[Joe the Rat]

If you could squeeze in another cantrip (Magic Initiate or going EK), Shocking grasp would give you a melee option and means to get out of melee, even with the too-heavy armor.

VHuman fighter 10 8 14 16 14 12, Magic Initiate (Wizard): Firebolt, Shocking Grasp, Find Familiar. Go heavy as you can manage, shield, skip the weapons. Ring + Shield leaves you at full speed and AC 16.

[ES Curse]

I suppose a high STR bladesinger (Mountain Dwarf, Dragonborn, possibly Half-Orc) with low INT would count? Dwarf's a clear winner with +2 STR, extra weapon/armor proficiencies, and +2 CON for much-needed durability, but Dragonborn or Half-Orc bladesingers could be fun too.

[Belac93]

I recently made a human ranger pretending to be a druid. He has 16 wisdom, and uses a quarterstaff as his weapon. He took magic initiate (druid) for Magic Stone, Shillelagh, and Healing Word. The premise is that he will try to fool everyone into believing that he is a druid, and when they expect him to shapeshift or throw fire, he'll start throwing rocks or hitting people with clubs.

[JeffreyGator]

A Thief rogue with high wisdom and con. Take magic initiative pick Thorn whip and guidance for the first lv spell it's hard for me to pick from entangle, Care wounds, good Berry Earth tremor. Then pick up ritual caster. For fights your damage is going to be Thorn whip. If you really want to be cheesy you could grad sheleighleigh and use a club to get sneak attack. Guidance is for your checks to replace dex so your stealth, sleight of hands and all those other Rogue checks are not terrible for dumping dex and what not.

A club isn't finesse and so you wouldn't get SA even with shillelagh.

A whip is finessable and so allows SA, I don't know about Thorn Whip getting SA or not.

[RickAllison]

A club isn't finesse and so you wouldn't get SA even with shillelagh.

A whip is finessable and so allows SA, I don't know about Thorn Whip getting SA or not.

Nope, Thorn Whip is not a weapon, so you wouldn't get it. You could, however, take Magic Stone. Lose your bonus action every three rounds, but a sling would make it an attack with a ranged weapon.

Huh...

[8wGremlin]

Sneak of Nature.

Thief, dump str and dex, max Wisdom > Con > Int
Take Magic Initiate (Druid): Magic stone (which does allow sneak attack if using a sling!), Guidance, and Goodberry.
pretend to be all druidic.

Pick wisdom based skills: - Perception, Insight.
Pick knowledge based skills: - Investigation

Take the Outlander background: - provide all the food and water
Get Athletics and Survival (Wis)