Help with a gish, if possible.

[Klorox]

Hey guys, I'm not too familiar with pathfinder. I've played, but I'm not overly experienced with the system.

I want to play a fighter with a few magical tricks up his sleeve. In 5e (the system I primarily play now), I'm looking for the equivalent of an eldritch knight, which is a fighter subclass (he's considered a 1/3 caster, and his tricks are restricted to a couple of cantrips, the shield spell, and misty step, which is a short range teleport.

Any help and advice you can give me would be appreciated.

I'm starting at level 5.

[legomaster00156]

Would you like an arcane, divine, or psychic gish? Is any 3rd-party material permitted? PF has two primary "gish-in-a-can" classes, both of which perform very well: the Magus and the Warpriest, arcane and divine respectively. There are also the Bard and Inquisitor (essentially a more selfish divine-caster Bard).

[Tinskin]

A good one is a cleric with two levels of monk and a guided amulet.

One I designed, but never played, was a paladin 2/monk 2/ sorcerer 1/ Dragon Disciple x. It's more than a little MAD, but was an amazing tank, did good damage, and was moderate spellcaster.

[Extra Anchovies]

It's dependent on what you want to be doing with your spells.

Do you want to deal damage with spells and with weapons? Magus.
Do you want to buff yourself with spells and deal damage with weapons? Warpriest.
Do you want to fight with weapons in combat and use magic for other purposes? Inquisitor and Dervish Dancer Bard.

Of those I recommend the Inquisitor and the Dervish Dancer, because they have a fair bit more to do outside of combat than Magus or Warpriest. They're all pretty solid, though, and have the advantage of being gishy from level one, a trait not shared by, say, Paladin/Sorcerer or similar multiclass builds.

[Klorox]

Thanks guys.

I was doing some searching around message boards, and one quote that stood out was "friends don't let friends play a magus"

IDK why, but that makes me sad because it sounds kind of cool.

Dervish dancer bard sounds neat too.

In a perfect world, I'd like to play a 5e eldritch knight, which is a full fighter, wearing heavy armor, with some magic tricks.

I realize with spell failure penalties from armor that idea is basically impossible. Switching to a DEX based guy who can handle combat with a bit of spellcasting is an acceptable character for me.

I just found out the party has a cleric, sorcerer, some type of warrior dual wielding and a war priest. I'm not sure what I can use to "fill in the gaps" but I think that dervish bard idea works.

[RolkFlameraven]

Thanks guys.

I was doing some searching around message boards, and one quote that stood out was "friends don't let friends play a magus"

IDK why, but that makes me sad because it sounds kind of cool.

Who in the world said this? Magus is a grate class.

Then again some time ago someone else asked about the inquisitor and had hear something similar and that too is a grate class. Both are solid tier 3 classes and would work fine with the group you have said (though I'm feeling sorry for the duel wielding guy).

[digiman619]

In a perfect world, I'd like to play a 5e eldritch knight, which is a full fighter, wearing heavy armor, with some magic tricks.

Then you want a Mageknight from Spheres of Power. (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/mageknight). Admittedly, it's 3rd party stuff, but it's really, really good 3rd party stuff.

[CasualViking]

Bloodrager can be a full-bab heavy armor gish, but it's too far to the fighter side o the gish scale for my taste.

[Klorox]

Bloodrager can be a full-bab heavy armor gish, but it's too far to the fighter side o the gish scale for my taste.

I'll check it out. TY.

And thank you to everybody else as well. I really appreciate the help y'all have given me.

[Kurald Galain]

I want to play a fighter with a few magical tricks up his sleeve. In 5e (the system I primarily play now), I'm looking for the equivalent of an eldritch knight, which is a fighter subclass (he's considered a 1/3 caster, and his tricks are restricted to a couple of cantrips, the shield spell, and misty step, which is a short range teleport.

I recommend Magus. Here, have a guidebook (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?423754-Myrrh-Frankincense-and-Steel-Kurald-Galain-s-Guide-to-the-Magus).

You get cantrips and shield spell from the beginning, teleportation and medium armor at level 7.


I was doing some searching around message boards, and one quote that stood out was "friends don't let friends play a magus"
That makes no sense. Don't let a single quote ruin a class for you.

[legomaster00156]

In addition, Magi eventually gain the ability to wear and cast spells in medium and heavy armor without spell failure chance, though this is a good bit later in their careers than you might prefer.

[Kurald Galain]

In addition, Magi eventually gain the ability to wear and cast spells in medium and heavy armor without spell failure chance, though this is a good bit later in their careers than you might prefer.

Perhaps surprisingly, medium or heavy armor doesn't actually give you a better protection than light armor does (because of its limit on dexterity bonus). Furthermore, for any arcane caster, spells protect you better than armor does (e.g. Mirror Image).

[Zanos]

Thanks guys.

I was doing some searching around message boards, and one quote that stood out was "friends don't let friends play a magus"

IDK why, but that makes me sad because it sounds kind of cool.
There's probably a couple reasons for this. I'm guessing:
1. Misunderstanding of how to build/play a Magus. Unfortunately, several spells in the Magus's arsenal severally outclass everything else when used with their class features.
2. MAD issues. If a magus ever has to use a save spell directly on an opponent, it probably isn't going to work since their casting stat isn't likely to be super high.
3. Pigeonholed. Mostly due to the above, the Magus pretty much spends every round hitting the enemies with a spell combat shocking grasp or vampiric touch. As such, the number of effective magus builds is rather narrow.
4. GM Rage. In some groups, a well built and played magus can put out absolutely ridiculous amounts of damage. Some folks do not like this.


Perhaps surprisingly, medium or heavy armor doesn't actually give you a better protection than light armor does (because of its limit on dexterity bonus). Furthermore, for any arcane caster, spells protect you better than armor does (e.g. Mirror Image).
In pathfinder heavy is slightly better. The sum of plate(Armor+Dex) is +10, whereas padded(the best light armor) is +9, and requires +8 dex, which is rather lofty.
All that said, if you like hitting dudes with your lightning sword, Magus is a pretty good class. As long as you're ready to spend a lot of rounds hitting dudes with your lightning sword.

[Sayt]

Magus is really good, but for a closer fit to 5e EK, you probably want to look at Arcane Anthology's Child of Acavna and Amaznen fighter archetype . Unfortunately I'm away from books at the moment ans it doesn't seem to be on the srd or archives of nethys.

Basically it gives up weapon training and a few fests for bloodshed casting.

[Kurald Galain]

There's probably a couple reasons for this. I'm guessing:
Sorry, but this is far from correct.

Yes, there is a Magus build that only consists of casting shocking grasp over and over again. No, this is absolutely not the only way to play a Magus, nor is it the best one. Just an infamous (and boring!) build that got more attention than it should. You can make a viable and competitive Magus that never casts this spell.

Check the aforementioned guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?423754-Myrrh-Frankincense-and-Steel-Kurald-Galain-s-Guide-to-the-Magus) for over a dozen other good options. Yes, there's a diverse range of interesting archetypes here, and a huge spell list including buffs, battlefield control, teleportation, and utility magic.


2. MAD issues. If a magus ever has to use a save spell directly on an opponent, it probably isn't going to work since their casting stat isn't likely to be super high.
That's vastly exaggerated. At most levels that people actually play at, a Magus's spell is about 10% less likely to connect. Aside from that, spells that use touch attacks instead of saves are more likely to connect for a Magus.



In pathfinder heavy is slightly better.
The best light armor is not padded. It is either bracers or the Mage Armor spell, which easily get to +11 on a dex character.

[Zanos]

Sorry, but this is far from correct.

Yes, there is a Magus build that only consists of casting shocking grasp over and over again. No, this is absolutely not the only way to play a Magus, nor is it the best one. Just an infamous (and boring!) build that got more attention than it should. You can make a viable and competitive Magus that never casts this spell.

Check the aforementioned guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?423754-Myrrh-Frankincense-and-Steel-Kurald-Galain-s-Guide-to-the-Magus) for over a dozen other good options. Yes, there's a diverse range of interesting archetypes here, and a huge spell list including buffs, battlefield control, teleportation, and utility magic.

I've played quite a bit of both PFS and some pathfinder Persistent Worlds(all of which have focused on combat), and in practice grasp and touch magi have been the most effective. It's possible that this isn't true in other game settings where the encounters are tweaked towards the strengths of the group, but it has not been my experience.


That's vastly exaggerated. At most levels that people actually play at, a Magus's spell is about 10% less likely to connect. Aside from that, spells that use touch attacks instead of saves are more likely to connect for a Magus.

This varies pretty significantly both between levels and between builds. While a 10%(additive) difference is likely at low levels since a primary caster is probably rocking a 20 compared to the magus's 14/16, the difference is going to increase significantly if the magus puts more weight on his attack roll stat(str or dex) and as the difference in spell level increases. If a fullcaster takes their casting stat all the way to 36, his best spells have a DC of 32(10+9+13), while the magus might have a DC in the low 20s (10+6+5/6 or so). That's an additive difference of around 50%, which affects results a lot. A target the magus has a 10% chance of affecting, the dedicated caster has a chance of 60%, which is six times the success rate. A target the magus affects half the time is affected 95% of the time by the caster. This obviously highlights an extreme of the problem, which grows slowly but consistently over the levels. While I'm sure it's possible to build an effective magus that dedicates to their casting stat, that seems to be ignoring both the strengths and purpose of the class. If you wanted to cast a spell every round with a super high DC, you could have played any of the various full casters and gotten full spellcasting progression from a larger list.



The best light armor is not padded. It is either bracers or the Mage Armor spell, which easily get to +11 on a dex character.
Those are options are not light armor, but a magic item and a spell respectively, which are rather expensive to acquire on many characters and not better options in the majority of cases. Yes, light/no-armor is the better option for high dexterity characters, but anyone without sky high dex will be better served by something made of solid metal, especially at lower levels. I will agree by the time characters can afford +6 stat items and +5 tomes for dex, yes, heavy armor is not very good.

[Kurald Galain]

This varies pretty significantly both between levels
Ok, stop right there.

The op mentioned level FIVE. Very few people ever play above level TEN. Your comparison is about level 17+ therefore it is not relevant to the topic at hand.

Don't compare a hypothetical maxxed-out theory build. Look at something practical instead.

[Zanos]

Ok, stop right there.

The op mentioned level FIVE. Very few people ever play above level TEN. Your comparison is about level 17+ therefore it is not relevant to the topic at hand.

Don't compare a hypothetical maxxed-out theory build. Look at something practical instead.
I specifically mentioned that the problem caps out at that point, but is still relevant at lower levels. The system rewards being heavily focused on one thing, and monster defenses are tweaked for that in many cases.

Also I find it hypocritical that you're attacking me for talking about a high level scenario, when you brought up a character with a +11(32) dexterity modifier first.

Anyway, this argument is derailing OPs thread at this point. @OP, it is my opinion that Magus is not a great class if you want to play a character that is primarily a warrior that has a couple of tricks up their sleeve, rather than a guy with an enchanted sword. To add something constructive, I personally enjoy Dervish Dancer bard, as it's very effective in combat and can draw from a class list that's specifically constructed to provide fancy tricks and utility spells.

[Seppo87]

OP:

Play Magus or Bloodrager. None is equivalent to 5E EK, but they get close
Bloodrager is a primary melee with a few magic tricks so it plays very similar, but is tied to rage and bloodlines thematically
Magic is thematically more fitting, but plays different as it uses spells to attack

Quiggong Monk for a weird but effective twist