Should drinking be a CON check or save?

[Specter]

Greetings,

So, the PHB states that chugging ale is a CON check. However, alcohol is poison too, and it seems to me that dwarves' poison resistance has something to do with the fact that they are total winos, and my player asked me about that specifically for drinking contests.

Which one would you use? And do you think dwarves should take more booze than other races?

[Gastronomie]

As a DM, I'd perhaps have them make a low-DC save, like DC 7 or something. Or if it's a long feast, perhaps the DC will be higher.

And while the adventurers are drunk and sleeping in their pajamas, the enemies suddenly attack...

[hymer]

Which one would you use?

Con check, but I'd let the dwarves get advantage due to their resistance to poison.


And do you think dwarves should take more booze than other classes?

Dwarves aren't classes. That said, I think dwarves are individuals with various habits, and have cultures with various norms. Some dwarves no doubt drink a lot, but perhaps they're often the ones out among other peoples, and they're either sent away for being annoying drunks, or drinking to soothe their homesickness. Who knows? Maybe that's how the stereotype arose.

[Trum4n1208]

When my PC's had a drinking contest, I ran it as a series of Con Rolls with steadily increasing DC's until it hit DC 18 or 20. Last character in won the contest.

[Specter]

Con check, but I'd let the dwarves get advantage due to their resistance to poison.



Dwarves aren't classes. That said, I think dwarves are individuals with various habits, and have cultures with various norms. Some dwarves no doubt drink a lot, but perhaps they're often the ones out among other peoples, and they're either sent away for being annoying drunks, or drinking to soothe their homesickness. Who knows? Maybe that's how the stereotype arose.

Races, my bad.

[Swooper]

I'd rule it as a saving throw without hesitating. A check is usually for accomplishing something (climbing a tree, knowing an obscure detail, noticing something etc.), a save is for avoiding something bad. In the case of ingesting alcohol, the roll would be to avoid getting drunk, therefore obviously a save.

[BurgerBeast]

So, the PHB states that chugging ale is a CON check.

Maybe chugging, here, refers specifically to the ability to get the ale down your throat as quickly as possible, as in a boat race (chugging speed contest). I'm not sure, but for me that's the only way it makes sense.

The ability to resist the effects of ale hinges on the ability to resist the poison in large quantities (i.e. to not get drunk), which is a different thing, and seems like a saving throw to me.

I'm personally someone who is terrible at chugging, but have a relatively high alcohol tolerance. I have I'm pretty sure most of us have a friend or two who is awesome at chugging, independent of their alcohol tolerance.

[BurgerBeast]

I'd rule it as a saving throw without hesitating. A check is usually for accomplishing something (climbing a tree, knowing an obscure detail, noticing something etc.), a save is for avoiding something bad. In the case of ingesting alcohol, the roll would be to avoid getting drunk, therefore obviously a save.

Since when is getting drunk bad? Some of us drink to get drunk!

[hymer]

The ability to resist the effects of ale hinges on the ability to resist the poison in large quantities (i.e. to not get drunk), which is a different thing, and seems like a saving throw to me.

I like if it's a save because it means higher level characters get to be more awesome at it. But I don't like about the save that it's class dependent. The original party animal, the bard, is less able to withstand alcohol than a sorcerer? And the sorcerers are better at filtering out toxins than rangers?
Maybe I'm actually having problems with the state of saves in 5e in general.

[Specter]

I like if it's a save because it means higher level characters get to be more awesome at it. But I don't like about the save that it's class dependent. The original party animal, the bard, is less able to withstand alcohol than a sorcerer? And the sorcerers are better at filtering out toxins than rangers?
Maybe I'm actually having problems with the state of saves in 5e in general.

These 'good save, bad save' mechanics go against what's reasonable for each class, and that's why I give rangers con save proficiency at level 6.

[BurgerBeast]

Edit: not really relevant.

[hymer]

Fair enough, but just to play devil's advocate...

I'm talking about the ability to withstand alcohol poisoning while maintaining your general faculties, and the rate at which you recover, counsel. I wasn't referring to how swiftly someone can down frothy liquid. :smallsmile:

Edit: I see you've withdrawn your objection. :smallwink:

[Plaguescarred]

Should drinking be a CON check or save?I think it should be a saving throw. A saving throw represents an attempt to resist a threat such as drug or poison intoxication and this is what alcool similarily does to you.

[RSP]

Are you drunk after a feast in which you had some alcohol: Con Sv.

Are you in a drinking contest with other characters: opposing Con checks if you want it to be simple.

Want to make it more of an involved drinking contest: DM's choice for whatever they feel is the most fun.

[Hrugner]

It should probably be strength based since alcohol's effect is reduced mostly by body water content. It should also be a stat check rather than a save since tolerance can be built somewhat. An athletics check wouldn't be unreasonable either considering the relationship to activity and alcohol's effects on behavior. Then I'd give people a drinks processed per hour increase based on their con.

Alternately, you could just use the alcohol to bodyweight calculators online to see how much someone needs to drink to be drunk.


But, between the two given options, I'd make it a con check.

[smcmike]

Maybe chugging, here, refers specifically to the ability to get the ale down your throat as quickly as possible, as in a boat race (chugging speed contest). I'm not sure, but for me that's the only way it makes sense.

The ability to resist the effects of ale hinges on the ability to resist the poison in large quantities (i.e. to not get drunk), which is a different thing, and seems like a saving throw to me.

I'm personally someone who is terrible at chugging, but have a relatively high alcohol tolerance. I have I'm pretty sure most of us have a friend or two who is awesome at chugging, independent of their alcohol tolerance.

Yup. For some reason folks who are awesome at chugging aren't necessarily so awesome to be around about an hour later. Odd.

[mgshamster]

New skill:

Constitution (Drinking).

[Dalebert]

I agree with OP. Alcohol absolutely is a poison.


And do you think dwarves should take more booze than other races?

How can this be at all in dispute? The incident in the LotR movies was blasphemous and is to be disregarded as any sort of canon regarding this fact. I mean, I'm an elf fan and not a dwarf fan, but this is one area where dwarves should be far and away superior to elves.

[Yuki Akuma]

I agree with the interpretation that drinking quickly (i.e. 'chugging') is a Constitution check, while resisting the debilitating effects of alcohol intoxication is a Constitution save.

And I wouldn't be adverse to there being a Constitution (Chugging) skill, because that's funny.

[Vogonjeltz]

Greetings,

So, the PHB states that chugging ale is a CON check. However, alcohol is poison too, and it seems to me that dwarves' poison resistance has something to do with the fact that they are total winos, and my player asked me about that specifically for drinking contests.

Which one would you use? And do you think dwarves should take more booze than other races?

Categorically saves are for things that happen to you, whereas checks are for things you do.

Quaffing the ale is a check.

Avoiding being poisoned by drinking a lot would be a save.

[smcmike]

Categorically saves are for things that happen to you, whereas checks are for things you do.

"The Orc attempts to grab you. Check please."

[Rusvul]

I would rule it a save- it is a poison, and mechanically the only difference is it allows Barbarians and other beefy types to have an even higher alcohol tolerance. (It does get a bit weird with sorcerers, though, but whatever.)

I remember in a game I was in the Cleric tried to cast Detect Poison to find out if his ale was, well, poisoned. It registered to the spell as poison... as did every other mug in the room. (This was in 3.5, where the spell only yielded the exact type of poison on a successful Wisdom check... which the cleric failed.)

[Hrugner]

That's sort of a problem with treating not terribly deadly poisons as the same as quite deadly poisons. Also, cyanide, ricin and solanines are in all sorts of food in inconsequential ammounts and probably shouldn't detect as poison. Setting the detection level for poisons low enough that the spell isn't useful is probably not the best way to manage a spell. I much prefer keeping alcohol separate for narrative reasons. It doesn't serve the same purpose in the world as poison does, so there's no reason to treat it the same despite literally being the same.

[Dalebert]

Alternatively, you could interpret the spell liberally and say the caster realizes the strength of the poison, e.g. "You would have to drink a LOT of this for a chance to get sick (poisoned condition) or die."

Whether you do or not, I also think it makes sense to treat it as poison for the purposes of narrative because dwarves should be hardy drinkers.

[Telonius]

Running Shackled City once, and the adventure path called for a drinking contest. I can't recall what the rules were, but Lord Vhalantru ... who was secretly a Beholder... was basically immune to the effects of alcohol.

We had a Warforged in the group.

The DM ruled that the contest was over when the Warforged literally couldn't fit any more booze inside him.

[smcmike]

That's sort of a problem with treating not terribly deadly poisons as the same as quite deadly poisons. Also, cyanide, ricin and solanines are in all sorts of food in inconsequential ammounts and probably shouldn't detect as poison. Setting the detection level for poisons low enough that the spell isn't useful is probably not the best way to manage a spell. I much prefer keeping alcohol separate for narrative reasons. It doesn't serve the same purpose in the world as poison does, so there's no reason to treat it the same despite literally being the same.

An even simpler "poison" that's in almost everything: salt. Imagine casting Detect Poison while at sea.

[Joe the Rat]

Water, water everywhere, yet not a drop to drink?


New skill:

Constitution (Drinking).




And I wouldn't be adverse to there being a Constitution (Chugging) skill, because that's funny.
Seems a bit limited in scope. I'd do it as a tool proficiency. "Chugging" and "Tool" do have a strong association...
Seriously though, drinking contests are a game, and Gaming Set proficiency is a thing. Gaming Set (Cups) fits pretty well.


Running Shackled City once, and the adventure path called for a drinking contest. I can't recall what the rules were, but Lord Vhalantru ... who was secretly a Beholder... was basically immune to the effects of alcohol.

We had a Warforged in the group.

The DM ruled that the contest was over when the Warforged literally couldn't fit any more booze inside him.
That's funny and brilliant. I may have to add some form of 'forged to my game for no other purpose than drinking contests.

And I'm agreeing with check (speed) and save (effects)... but that's to where you get the poisoned condition. Then you can start making Con(drink) checks at Disadvantage.

Hmmm, maybe we should just bake up some drinking contest rules.

[mgshamster]

An even simpler "poison" that's in almost everything: salt. Imagine casting Detect Poison while at sea.

That's one of the larger problems with poisons in D&D. I just try to ignore the entire concept of dose-response (not to include different responses based on species, age, vulnerability, route of administration, etc) and pretend that in D&D, something is either a poison or it isn't, and it has the same effect across all creatures regardless of other conditions (unless, of course, they have something that gives them resistence or immunity).

Some of my past players have asked me to design a comprehensive system for poisons (I'm a toxicologist) in D&D - this was back in Pathfinder, aka 3.75, and I did a little bit (at least enough for one player to create some new poisons for an alchemist character) - but for 5e it would just be too complex for the system philosophy. And it's a lot of work for minimal enjoyment.

Oh, and speaking of table salt and poisons, I once had a nutrition teacher tell me that Sucralose was bad for you because it has chlorine in it (with a picture of the molecule shown as proof) - and as we all know, chlorine is bad. After all, chlorine was used as a chemical weapon in WW1. Still don't know how she got a job teaching nutrition with such bad information as that.


Seems a bit limited in scope. I'd do it as a tool proficiency. "Chugging" and "Tool" do have a strong association...
Seriously though, drinking contests are a game, and Gaming Set proficiency is a thing. Gaming Set (Cups) fits pretty well.

I was just thinking that as a skill it is a bit limited. I agree that a tool proficiency would be better.

Cups doesn't seem to fit, though, as that's a specific game that's not really related to drinking, despite the name. So I think it'd be best as its own tool proficiency - and despite the limited scope in mechanics, it has some fantastic roleplaying implications.

You could set it up so you have resistence to any damage drinking might cause, or advantage on any save or check related to drinking. Or even that you're good at slipping the alcohol away and pretending to be drunk.

I once saw a character that carried around a large jug of wine that she'd drink from all the time and pretend to be drunk. She didn't actually drink from it, she'd just swish it back into the jug. Then she'd pass it around for others to drink, so the volume of wine would decrease. Her opponents would think she was a wino and a drunk and underestimate her.

[Arkhios]

Personally, I like to think it this way.
Drinking is a Con check to see how much you can drink.
Drinking is a Con save to see how your body handles what you have drank.

Fail the check, the fluid limit hits.
Fail the save, the tolerance limit hits.
Fail both, you're an amateur :P

[RickAllison]

For another prominent poison in food, every recipe with nutmeg should ring out alerts. IIRC, even the levels that are perfectly harmless to humans can poison other animals, while even humans can be affected with sufficient quantities.

[Joe the Rat]

So detect poison could get really complex feedback regarding the presence of substances, and relative concentration re: LD50 per pound of body mass, giving you an estimate of how much of something must be consumed to be dangerous. Or, since magic can do basically qualitative analysis and cross-check dosages, it just goes ping.

Or you ask yourself "what will happen if someone tried to eat/drink/breathe/touch it?", the spell looks into probable futures and sees the likelihood of it "hurting you by causing direct nervous or organ damage," and says "That's poisonous." Skip the qualitative analysis, and look at potential outcomes. A highly specific form of augury.



Cups doesn't seem to fit, though, as that's a specific game that's not really related to drinking, despite the name. So I think it'd be best as its own tool proficiency - and despite the limited scope in mechanics, it has some fantastic roleplaying implications. Hmmm. I was working from the "he's well into his cups" - had a lot of drink. hadn't thought of the other.

This also implies that 250 days of training will make you good at drinking. I'm not sure how seriously to take that.

[Vogonjeltz]

"The Orc attempts to grab you. Check please."

Not a spell, trap, poison, disease or similar threat. (PHB 179)

Also, grappling (like shoving) is specifically covered as a contest in combat. (PHB 195)

[Safety Sword]

Not a spell, trap, poison, disease or similar threat. (PHB 179)

Also, grappling (like shoving) is specifically covered as a contest in combat. (PHB 195)

It's only grappling if you resist. Otherwise it's love to an Orc.

Perhaps it's still love to an Orc if you resist....

[RumoCrytuf]

I'd rule it as a saving throw without hesitating. A check is usually for accomplishing something (climbing a tree, knowing an obscure detail, noticing something etc.), a save is for avoiding something bad. In the case of ingesting alcohol, the roll would be to avoid getting drunk, therefore obviously a save.

I think it would be a check personally, so as to avoid passing out drunk in a contest. Perhaps throw in a save at higher check DCs to avoid being poisoned?