PDA

View Full Version : A Sorceror Balance



Fax Celestis
2007-07-05, 06:49 PM
Would a sorceror become more broken than a wizard if it were allowed to choose spells from Clr/Sor/Wiz, instead of just Sor/Wiz? Not including domain spells, either. Or would he become actually worthwhile?

Orzel
2007-07-05, 06:54 PM
Yes. Too powerful. I've seen it happen.

Wizards would win on "the 2 copies of the a situational spell you'll never cast again" but who care when you can heal and junk.

Spell lists is the 2nd on the list of things that make casters scary.

Saph
2007-07-05, 06:55 PM
He already is worthwhile. Sorcerers aren't quite as powerful as a Batman wizard, but just about nothing is. They're still well above average in the power stakes, at higher levels at least.

Anyway, I don't think it would make a huge difference, since sorcerers get so few spells known and since arcane spells are generally better than divine ones. Being able to use a wand of cure light wounds would be a BIG help at lowish levels, though. It'd increase the sorcerer's versatility rather than his power, and it'd mean that one sorcerer could back up an entire party of melee/skillmonkey classes.

- Saph

GryffonDurime
2007-07-05, 06:55 PM
I'd argue that a Sorcerer certainly isn't a slouch, and that he probably holds a position at the head of the second tier on the class pyramid, just a bit behind his elder siblings (the Wizard, Druid, Cleric, and Artificer).

With that being said? No, it wouldn't really overpower the Sorcerer so long as certain spells--I'm looking at you Divine Power and Righteous Might--were discouraged. Of course, sans the Divine Metamagic cheese, both of those spells become somewhat more reasonable.

For some reason, I'm inclined to think offering them the Druid spell list would be more appropriate, but either way.

Though we already have Wizards of the Coast's say on this matter: access to the Cleric spell list is available at the loss of four casters levels from the Rainbow Servant, or from a +7 LA as a Couatl. Then again, we all know that Wizards is far from infallible in terms of balance.

Fax Celestis
2007-07-05, 06:58 PM
Don't get me wrong: I like the Sorceror as-is. Some of my players don't, though. This was a suggested fix, and I wanted to make sure I wasn't nuts.

GryffonDurime
2007-07-05, 07:01 PM
If the main desire is to attain curative powers for the Sorcerer (healing spells, maybe even some other restoratives)...I see no issue. Healing isn't exactly the most fun action, and so classes than can heal usually entail some other form of incentive: the Cleric can tank adequately, the Druid gets a plethora of niftyness. And every healing spell is a spell that the Sorcerer could have spent to better fulfill his role as Batman lite.

If, however, your players are targeting spells on the Cleric list beyond this scope, I'd be sketchy.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-07-05, 07:03 PM
Divine Power and Righteous Might. Need I say more? Who needs Tenser's Transformation with these two babies?

Krrth
2007-07-05, 07:07 PM
There are several ways to do this. I seem to recall something being mentioned in one of the core books about a sorcerer being able to pick spells from other lists, if they can get GM's permission, and find someone who can teach it to them (I think the example mentioned was a Lamassu). THis allows you as the GM to decide which spells they do and don['t have access to this way. Or, there is a feat that adds a cleric domain spells to the arcane caster list. If you want them to heal, they can always take that feat.

Saph
2007-07-05, 07:10 PM
If, however, your players are targeting spells on the Cleric list beyond this scope, I'd be sketchy.

Oh yeah. Just imagine Divine Power combined with Polymorph.

Not only are you a Wyvern, you're a Wyvern with full BAB, a +6 enhancement bonus to Strength, and some extra HP. At level 9, that'd be a full attack routine of . . . +15/+13/+13/+13/+13/+13, with a Strength of 25. I'm not even going to try and work out what a Rukanyr would end up becoming.

- Saph

Fax Celestis
2007-07-05, 07:11 PM
Oh yeah. Just imagine Divine Power combined with Polymorph.

Not only are you a Wyvern, you're a Wyvern with full BAB, a +6 enhancement bonus to Strength, and some extra HP. At level 9, that'd be a full attack routine of . . . +15/+13/+13/+13/+13/+13, with a Strength of 25. I'm not even going to try and work out what a Rukanyr would end up becoming.

- Saph

Rukanyr are broken anyway, but that's another matter entirely.

The_Werebear
2007-07-05, 07:21 PM
Actually, I think so long as you banned Righteous Might and Divine power, the Sorcerer could probably take what he wanted out of the cleric spell list with little balance problems. And since Clerics can already access some arcane spells through domains, it would probably be perfectly fine to allow them to take a few divine spells.

bigbaddragon
2007-07-05, 07:24 PM
Has anyone considered allowing sorcerers specialization and giving them one spell every level or two from the school they specialize in (from sor/wiz list)?

Jacob Orlove
2007-07-06, 12:26 AM
Let's compare Wizards and Clerics for a second. Clerics get:
Better Hit Dice
More Good Saves
Domains
Domain Spells
Armor (and they can cast in it!)
Better Weapon Profs
More BAB
Turn Undead
Better spell access
Better spell preparation
A better Will save

Wizards get
A better spell list
More class skills
More skill points

And yet, Wizards are pretty much on par with Clerics. Why? It's because Arcane spells are, on the whole, much much much much stronger than divine ones. Allowing Sorcerers access to Divine spells will generally weaken them, as they take stuff like Cure Light Wounds instead of good spells.

Kurald Galain
2007-07-06, 03:43 AM
Don't get me wrong: I like the Sorceror as-is. Some of my players don't, though. This was a suggested fix, and I wanted to make sure I wasn't nuts.

Perhaps those that don't like the sorcerer as-is could be interested in playing a warmage or beguiler?

Also, there's the Arcane Disciple feat.

Sir Giacomo
2007-07-06, 04:12 AM
Hmmm, an idea...since Sorcerers max CHR, anyway, why not then max UMD cross-class and thus get access to divine spells? That would be something were they are ahead of a wizard.

- Giacomo

Dausuul
2007-07-06, 05:13 AM
Don't get me wrong: I like the Sorceror as-is. Some of my players don't, though. This was a suggested fix, and I wanted to make sure I wasn't nuts.

*shrug* If you're okay with the wizard as-is, I don't see any problems. The specter of the "guy who can both heal and throw fireballs" has haunted D&D designers since the days of TSR, but it's really not a big deal IMO. No other magic system worries about it.

Me, I'd rather just axe the wizard and be done with it. Sorcerors look a whole lot more attractive when they don't have the wizard overshadowing them.

lord_khaine
2007-07-06, 06:31 AM
i think it would be a fun experiment, and as someone else have allready said, its not that overpowered again, due to the limited number of spells known a sorcerer has.

even the dreadet polymorph+divine power combo isnt that big a deal on its own, for a start the sorcerer have just spend 2 rounds buffing himself, he could have done a lot of other very nasty things with 2 rounds and 2 lv 4 spellslots like fx Edvards probing tentakles+slow.

anyway, do tell us how it turns out.

Tormsskull
2007-07-06, 06:40 AM
To Fax: I think giving sorcerors access to clerical spells would overpower them. I think the sorceror description (or some other part in the class section) describes the possibility of having a sorceror that casts divine spells instead of arcane spells, which would lead me to believe that having both would be too much.



Me, I'd rather just axe the wizard and be done with it. Sorcerors look a whole lot more attractive when they don't have the wizard overshadowing them.

I'm inclined to agree with this. Plus spontaneous casting is much easier for newer players to follow.

Xuincherguixe
2007-07-06, 08:18 AM
Thing is, mystic theurge. I've heard accounts that it's not that broken a class. Giving Sorcerer spells traditionally on the Divine list is going to be not even as good as mystic theurges I would think.

Well, other than that it lets them take the psychotic spells from both lists. But hey, you can just say, "No, you can't have THAT traditionally divine spell. How about a nice tasty Restoration instead?"

13_CBS
2007-07-06, 08:22 AM
I don't play D&D, but what would happen if you gave the Sorceror Arcane spells + the Paladin spell list, or something like it? I'm under the impression that the Paladin spell list is something like "Divine spells lite".

Kurald Galain
2007-07-06, 08:24 AM
Mystic Theurge is a relatively weak class because it gets the higher-level spells a lot later (e.g. a wiz 3 / cler 3 / MT 3 has 3rd-level spells as an 9th-level chararacter, whereas a full wiz or cler would have 5th-level spells by then). A sorc with cleric spells DOES get the higher level spells at an early time.

Piccamo
2007-07-06, 08:27 AM
I don't play D&D, but what would happen if you gave the Sorceror Arcane spells + the Paladin spell list, or something like it? I'm under the impression that the Paladin spell list is something like "Divine spells lite".

If you're going that route you may as well not even bother to give it spells. Giving it UMD as a class skill is about as close as anyone should go to adding spells to its list.

Reinboom
2007-07-06, 08:30 AM
Thing is, mystic theurge. I've heard accounts that it's not that broken a class. Giving Sorcerer spells traditionally on the Divine list is going to be not even as good as mystic theurges I would think.

Well, other than that it lets them take the psychotic spells from both lists. But hey, you can just say, "No, you can't have THAT traditionally divine spell. How about a nice tasty Restoration instead?"

Mystic theurge hurts for two reasons:
1, it generally requires 3 and 3 split in order to get in (3 Cleric, 3 Wizard), and an even harsher split with spontaneous casters (3 Cleric, 4 sorcerer, etc.)
This mean you effectively lose "3" levels in that spell casting class for max spell progression.
How power scales early on, this makes early levels tough.
Thus when you get done with your mystic theurge levels (Cleric 3, Wizard 3, MT 10), and are level 16, you are casting as a level 13 of the previous two.
Now, the next issue is finding a class to keep progressing either, as well. Geometer is the closest there is, to the best of my knowledge, so you can never be full either.
You have a lot of spells, but you always run behind the full casters. If you are the only full caster and are attempting to fill two different roles then you tend to slack behind the whole party for a long while.
In comparison, the sorcerer runs "1 level behind" the wizard for next spell level. And can take this to 20. This means, that they will outshine the mystic theurge by level 6, when they are casting both level 3 divine and arcane spells and the mystic theurge... hasn't happened yet.
Of course, the mystic theurge still has more spells. And is not restricted by spells known.
*ponders*

Complete Champion has a nice way of getting the healing domain onto sorcerers :smallwink:

---
More to topic:
Yes. Overpowered. Even in cross-comparison, there are a few spells that are on both lists already of which the divine casters get faster (true sight ie.)
But only overpowered in that it will be covering a lot of party roles. It will not be "outshining" the Favored Soul. Favored Soul gets more spells known, better saves, better class abilities, better HD, better BAB, none of this "spell failure" junk, armor proficiencys........
Actually, while writing this, I am debating the topic upon myself more and more. Growing closer to shouting out "overpowered" when suddenly smack reminded that the sorcerer's progression and spells known would mean it's taking over no other party roll, but instead sacrificing only its own to try to "multi-class" out. Hmm.

This would require much debate, poor poor beautiful sorcerer...

Fawsto
2007-07-06, 12:37 PM
The main Problem of the sorceror is the same Problem of the paladin.

"Wait, what is this guy saying, comparing the Paladin with the Sorceror?!"

Wait now, ok. Well what I am saying is that after the first levels a Sorcerer gets boring. I mean, he won't receive any cool class features as the Paladin doesn't after 6th lvl. After lvl 5 your sorcerer will only be able to nuke the enemies, only that. Well, although the Sorcerer is quite powerful, doing that session after session can be quite boring.

What to do, you ask? Let the sorcerer choose his skills, the same way that the specialist (npc class) does. Now, if teh sorcerer is wiling to, he may take a few scores at Use Magical Device and use any kind of wand he desires.

Quietus
2007-07-06, 01:37 PM
The main Problem of the sorceror is the same Problem of the paladin.

"Wait, what is this guy saying, comparing the Paladin with the Sorceror?!"

Wait now, ok. Well what I am saying is that after the first levels a Sorcerer gets boring. I mean, he won't receive any cool class features as the Paladin doesn't after 6th lvl. After lvl 5 your sorcerer will only be able to nuke the enemies, only that. Well, although the Sorcerer is quite powerful, doing that session after session can be quite boring.

What to do, you ask? Let the sorcerer choose his skills, the same way that the specialist (npc class) does. Now, if teh sorcerer is wiling to, he may take a few scores at Use Magical Device and use any kind of wand he desires.

Or, at least, give them 4+int/level. After all, if they get additional weapon proficiencies over the Wizard, why wouldn't they also have the time to dabble in a few other side things?

toddex
2007-07-06, 01:40 PM
Would a sorceror become more broken than a wizard if it were allowed to choose spells from Clr/Sor/Wiz, instead of just Sor/Wiz? Not including domain spells, either. Or would he become actually worthwhile?

Wouldn't it be just an Archivist without the nifty abilities and more spells / day?

Kurald Galain
2007-07-06, 01:43 PM
after the first levels a Sorcerer gets boring. I mean, he won't receive any cool class features as the Paladin doesn't after 6th lvl. After lvl 5 your sorcerer will only be able to nuke the enemies
Sure he does. He gets fourth level spells, and then fifth level spells, and so forth. There's an abundance of neat tricks there.

If you want your sorc to do something other than nuke the enemies, don't make a blaster mage. Go for a buffer. Or a master dispeller. There's even a possible grappler build. And there's any number of prestige classes. Sorc is way more versatile than most of the melee classes.

Dausuul
2007-07-06, 02:53 PM
Sure he does. He gets fourth level spells, and then fifth level spells, and so forth. There's an abundance of neat tricks there.

If you want your sorc to do something other than nuke the enemies, don't make a blaster mage. Go for a buffer. Or a master dispeller. There's even a possible grappler build. And there's any number of prestige classes. Sorc is way more versatile than most of the melee classes.

Well spoken. A good sorc should have a variety of tricks up his sleeve. If all you want to do is blast, play a warmage, they're better at it. The point of a sorc is to be Batman... not as strategically versatile as wizard-Batman, but with a lot more tactical flexibility and considerably more stamina.

I love playing sorcs, and I'm quite happy to single-class all the way up if there aren't any good PrCs available to me.

ZeroNumerous
2007-07-06, 02:58 PM
Personally, I give Sorcerer's the bonus feats of a wizard and call it a day. But if you want to give them more flexibility, make UMD a class skill. They'll have the insane charisma bonus and nothing else to use those skill points on, so it should be plenty to let them use basically any spell they want.

Ivius
2007-07-06, 03:45 PM
I just let Sorcerers choose a domain, and every time he gains a new level, the spell is automatically added to his spells known.

Thrawn183
2007-07-06, 11:17 PM
The problem with giving sorcerors access to the cleric spell list is that there are many spells there that are valuable in many situations while the limiting factor for the sorceror is supposed to be limited spells known.

Ex: Heal. From 12th level on, every sorceror would probably know this spell. But there would be no downside of how many of them to prepare. I've found that sorcerors can afford to drop a spell here or there because they don't need all that many spells to do what they need to. They need a few control, a few damage and a few debuff/save or die. Pretty much everything else is situational and, most importantly, out of combat. Those can be easily replaced with scrolls. Which means, that many, many spells known will end up being divine... and all the most powerful ones (cast miracle or time stop 6 times per day? ouch). Granted, with cure spells, you would essentially be mimicking the cleric's ability to spontaneously convert (although the sorceror would be slightly better at it because they wouldn't be sacrificing prepared spells, only the ability to cast spells of the same level), but if you wanted to do more than that, you'd have to be prepared for the consequences.

A high level sorceror with heal could conceivably heal thousands upon thousands of hp. Stick him with a party of melee'ers and they could do a heck of a lot more than 4 on CR encounters in a day. That's the effect one divine spell would have. Just one.

Oh, it also changes things when it comes to spells like restoration. Normally the few times you actually need lesser restoration or restoration, the party has suffered so much ability damage etc. that having one or two prepared still isn't enough. A sorceror wouldn't have that problem. He chooses it as a single spell known, and poison will never stop your party again. Granted, this may be exactly what you want; but it might not. If you have smart players, the consequences of doing this would be... huge. I'm not saying don't do it, I'm saying think very very long and very very hard about it first.

TheOOB
2007-07-07, 12:16 AM
The fact is, there are very few divine spells that are better then what a sorcerer all ready gets. Given there are a few spells, like divine power and heal, which would be insanely powerful in the hands of an arcane caster, but we're all ready talking about a class that can solve almost any problem with a single well though out spell.

Truth be told, I don't see why there needs to be such a large difference between arcane and divine magic, I think it makes more sense to have a single class, and make the differences based on spell selection.

Tor the Fallen
2007-07-07, 12:18 AM
In general, I don't think letting a sorc pick from any spell list would be that unbalancing. however, due to spell combos, it could cause some serious issues, ie, full BAB+polymorph. But then again, most sane DMs ban those spells or heavily modify them.

I think a more 'flavorful' way to go would give them 4+in skill points, a bonus feat every five levels, and maybe a 'domain' of known spells. If you're going to play an arcanist, there's really no reason to not pick wizard. Just about every full caster is more powerful than the sorc. Saying "nah, he's fine, cause he's already more powerful than the fighter" isn't a satisfying solution. There really is no reason, if I wanted to play an arcanist, to choose sorceror. The cleric, archivist, wizard and druid will all outshine me. The tanks in the party are going to be out damaging what I can do. The rogue can not only UMD everything I can cast from a scroll, and more, but also has something like 10 skill points/ level.

Jack_Simth
2007-07-07, 12:19 AM
Thrawn:
A Favored Soul has just as many spells per day as a Sorcerer, more spells known, better HP, better saves, better BAB, and class features.

The Sorcerer with Heal isn't the terror.

ByeLindgren
2007-07-07, 01:57 AM
If you're going to play an arcanist, there's really no reason to not pick wizard. Just about every full caster is more powerful than the sorc. Saying "nah, he's fine, cause he's already more powerful than the fighter" isn't a satisfying solution. There really is no reason, if I wanted to play an arcanist, to choose sorceror. The cleric, archivist, wizard and druid will all outshine me. The tanks in the party are going to be out damaging what I can do. The rogue can not only UMD everything I can cast from a scroll, and more, but also has something like 10 skill points/ level.
Well, in a small-to-medium-sized party, it's reasonable to expect that you're the only arcanist, and the sorc can still outcast a cleric or druid. He just has to pick his spells known pretty well. Also, it's a lot less bookkeeping than Mr. Wizard, and you can fling spells around like candy. Basically you're trading in a little bit of combat effectiveness for a lot of time saved.

I'd still give 'em Eschew, 4+int skills and UMD, though.

LotharBot
2007-07-07, 02:06 AM
A high level sorceror with heal could conceivably heal thousands upon thousands of hp. Stick him with a party of melee'ers and they could do a heck of a lot more than 4 on CR encounters in a day.

A cleric who can heal an average of 275 hp for the low, low cost of a 750 gp wand of cure light wounds. By the time you've got a sorcerer who can cast "heal" six times per day, your cleric should be walking around with a few extra CLW wands and a willingness to use them. You should be pulling down way more than 750 gp over the time it takes to blow through 275 hp...

Callix
2007-07-07, 03:50 AM
The issue with the Healing Sorceror idea is that at high levels Dimension Door and Heal is a solution to almost any sticky situation, for the sorceror at least. Also, if the party has a cleric anyway, then the extra healing resources might be an issue. But every divine spell the sorceror takes is largely reducing his power. Divine casters get full lists, bonus powers and heavy armor. Wizards get arcane spells, with a limited list (gp). And it's the Batman wizard that dominates. You do the math.

Elana
2007-07-07, 06:59 AM
Doesn't sound that broken to me.
If he learns "divine" spells he is a weaker version of a cleric with access to the magic domain.

And there aren't many arcane scrolls of cure spells, so not taking those spells as spells known is hardly an option if he wants them.


(And only those normally divine spells that he adds to his list of spell known count as to be on his spell list,so the only way he can make use of an arcane cure light wound scroll is if he has learned it before.)



or just go on and replace the sorcerer with the generic spellcaster introduced in unearthed arcana.
(Now he at least gets some bonus feats :) )

ImperiousLeader
2007-07-07, 07:55 AM
I don't really think adding Cleric spells does too much for Sorcerers. The Divine Power and Righteous Might spells are good, but even combined with Polymorph, they're not that impressive for the d4 HD sorcerer, plus all those spells take from the Sorcerers limited spells known. I'd rather have Enervation than Divine Power.

Healing is nice, especially as Sorcs have enough spell slots that they could use them, plus they can then use CLW wands. But again, spells known are the limiting factor. I think I'd sooner pick an attack spell that would end the fight over a cure spell.

Fawsto
2007-07-07, 12:34 PM
What I meant is that the sorcerer won't get any good Class Features other than the spells, ok, there is the Familiar... A Wizard receives his spells and yet he gets the Familiar and free metamagic feats, mening new stuff in almost every level (counting new spells for every situation and the metamagics)

The sorcerer will still be doing one thing during all this time, be it nuking, buffing or whatever one speciality you may prefer. His short spell selection does not allow him to "do everything" as the batman wizard can, he would simply be ineffective (at least this is my experience while DMing to "batman sorcerers").

Indeed, the sorcerer is a mighty, interesting class. But you must take a little more effort to make new things happen to it, be it PrC or other stuff. No matter which spell you are using, a Nuker Sorc will always nuke, and this is his only (most of times) majo hability. A Buffer would do only that, Buff. Wizards can do whatever they wan't if they can learn the spell and decide to prepare it.

That's why the "free skill selection" or "4 + int skill points" are necessary. For instance, I'm using teh second option in my campaign, and it is working pretty well.

Jack_Simth
2007-07-07, 01:50 PM
Fawsto:

There are ways around the Sorcerer's lack of a utility belt.

A double invocation of Magic/Psionics Transparency with Limited Wish and Psychic Reformation, for instance, to swap out spells known. Even with only a single invocation of Magic/Psionics transparency, you can still get get Limited Wish to duplicate Psychic Reformation to swap feats - which, due to... what was it, Extra Spell? - permits a Sorcerer to suddenly have "the perfect spell" for the situation.

The Mage of the Arcane Order prestige class gives a limited ability to a Sorcerer to gain "the perfect spell" for the job on one round's notice.

If Ye Olde Shoppe ofe Magjickque sells anything for book-rates, the Sorcerer can get a bazillion scrolls for the occasional use spells.

Certain spells - Shadow Conjuration, Shadow Evocation, Limited Wish, and their ilk duplicate the effects of other spells - so an 8th level Sorcerer with Shadow Conjouration can ride around on a (fake) Phantom Steed, nauseate people via Stinking Cloud, or trap people via Web.

Most of them have drawbacks - XP cost, locked into a fairly specific build, high monetary costs, or the use of higher-level spell slots - but there are ways around the Sorcerer's lack of a utility belt.

Mostly, though, the well-designed Sorcerer's spells known list looks strikingly similar to the well-designed Wizard's spells prepared list for a "normal" adventuring day.

Cybren
2007-07-07, 02:21 PM
I thought about giving sorcerers an extra spell known at levels 5, 10, 15, and 20, from any spell list, but it would take up a slot one level higher than normal, and the new spell level can't be higher than the highest level the sorcerer can currently cast.

Kurald Galain
2007-07-07, 03:05 PM
Oh. Well, it goes without saying that the wizard outclasses the sorcerer. There are a variety of related classes (and/or presclasses) that are basically improved sorcerers, and fun to play, and still are outclassed by the wizard :) (talking about beguiler and warmage, for instance).

I think what would help the sorcerer is more "spell swaps", as in replacing a known spell by a different spell. IIRC you can do that once, every four levels or so? Perhaps the sorc should be able to swap out two spells at each levelup.

Also, there are a few ways to increase the sorc's spell knowledge; the extra spell feat is probably not worth it, but arcane disciple might, and prestige bard as well.

Jack_Simth
2007-07-07, 03:19 PM
Oh. Well, it goes without saying that the wizard outclasses the sorcerer.
Only in certain types of campaigns.

If you're routinely under time constraints that require you to go through more than the recommended number of encounters per day, the Wizard has reduced power.

If you don't have a meaningful amount of down-time between adventures, the Wizard can't craft to cover his endurance issues, nor scribe spells - weakening the wizard.

If you can't know what you're going to face, the Wizard gets stuck with a lot of useless spell slots - while the Sorcerer just shrugs and casts something else; shifting the balance in favor of the Sorcerer.

In a very low wealth campaign, the Wizard can't craft or scribe spells effectively - while the Sorcerer is one of the classes least dependent on wealth and equipment; the Sorcerer has an edge there.

And so on. It's campaign dependent; it doesn't go without saying.

Thrawn183
2007-07-07, 10:13 PM
When I spoke of Heal, I meant using it for in combat healing. I feel it and mass heal are the only two spells powerful enough to make it effective to heal rather than try and kill whatever it is you're fighting (again, this might be a good thing.)

I personally don't have a problem with it. I was thrilled when a friend of mine first showed me the unearthed arcana variant. I knew that I wouldn't abuse it. But I can't speak for anybody else's players and therefore must first advocate caution (always be wary for Thrawns to be running around playing the devil's advocate.)

There is one spell that I would say should not be allowed for sorcerors to learn 99% of the time: miracle. Using it to cast any 7th level arcane spell... well it kind of negates the whole spells known limitation. Suddenly the wizards will be running around crying.

I've always liked the idea of mixing arcane and divine casting. I really love mixing all available spell lists, but I don't like how powerful the archivist is. If from reading this you guess that my favorite class is chameleon.... you're probably right.

Fawsto
2007-07-07, 11:20 PM
hmm... well them... I am wrong in the end, I guess.

But you may agree that these "ways" are mostly less "economic" than the average wizard. Ok, before someone attacks me with the magic components and costs to write spells in the spellbook, I am not going down there, ok?

Again, comparing the Sorc with the Paly, this "lack of cool habilities" can be, and normaly is, soluted by the means of PrCs. Although I still believe that, if someone was to reach lvl 20 with a sorcerer, it will cause a little headache to solve his problem, if he has any after reaching this... Anyway, the sorcerer is still mighty, so no need to give him new spells, mostly because, as stated in this thread, beteween finishing an encounter with a single spell before it really starts and healing everybody after it ends, I'd go for the nuking :smalltongue: . And as I said, if the sorc is in the moods, let him get a few scores at use magic device ang give him a wand of cure x wounds, it is good enough.

BTW if we are dealing with a straight party, there will be probably a healer hidden somewhere, be it a Paladin, Druid or Ranger if we don't like Clerics.

see ya, guys.

brian c
2007-07-07, 11:22 PM
When I spoke of Heal, I meant using it for in combat healing. I feel it and mass heal are the only two spells powerful enough to make it effective to heal rather than try and kill whatever it is you're fighting (again, this might be a good thing.)

I personally don't have a problem with it. I was thrilled when a friend of mine first showed me the unearthed arcana variant. I knew that I wouldn't abuse it. But I can't speak for anybody else's players and therefore must first advocate caution (always be wary for Thrawns to be running around playing the devil's advocate.)

There is one spell that I would say should not be allowed for sorcerors to learn 99% of the time: miracle. Using it to cast any 7th level arcane spell... well it kind of negates the whole spells known limitation. Suddenly the wizards will be running around crying.

I've always liked the idea of mixing arcane and divine casting. I really love mixing all available spell lists, but I don't like how powerful the archivist is. If from reading this you guess that my favorite class is chameleon.... you're probably right.

Miracle has basically the same effects, in terms of replicating arcane spells, as Wish does. The only difference is the XP cost. It's not too broken.

Jack_Simth
2007-07-08, 12:19 AM
Miracle has basically the same effects, in terms of replicating arcane spells, as Wish does. The only difference is the XP cost. It's not too broken.Yeah - 8th level or lower Cleric spells, 7th level or lower anything else spells - using a 9th level spell slot. The existing Favored Soul class gets it already.... and has more spells, more HP, better saves, but a built-in case of MAD.