Fun, Mid-Op Character Builds

[Red Fel]

Well, after a long sabbatical, I'm actually getting to be a player in a PF campaign, for a change. The DM is new, and has called for a "fun, casual" game, which tells me low-to-mid-op. The DM has also said that the game will be "core" PF, no expansions or third party (sorry, DSP, not this time), which tells me that things like hybrid or unchained classes are probably out too, but uncommon races are good to go. And the game is in two weeks, at which point the first session will be a "session zero" character build / getting to know you with the players. New group, new everything, all good.

My goal is to come up with several options for character concepts, so that (1) I can have an idea of what I'm doing, (2) I can avoid stepping on toes if someone else has a similar idea, and (3) I can have backups in case an idea gets vetoed.

Here's where I need help. I have a few general ideas, but I could use more, and I could use help refining the ones I have. Some concepts follow.
Aasimar Monk/Cleric/Paladin/CoI. I've discussed this build before (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18364419&postcount=50). On the one hand, it's an unarmed Monk/Paladin, so it's not going to be devastatingly powerful. On the other, it is complex, CoI is not from the core rulebook, and it might intimidate the rest of the players; plus there's the fact that I'd be bringing a Paladin to a new table, where unknown player and DM biases are a thing.
Ifrit Sorcerer (Wishcrafter). Be a mad genie. It's sub-optimal, but it's also flexible, and fun.
Kitsune Sorcerer. Either straight Fey Bloodline, emphasis on enchantment/compulsion; Rakshasa Bloodline, Realistic Likeness feat, emphasis on blending in; or Crossblooded, both.
Asura-Spawn Tiefling Gunslinger with Prehensile Tail. Writes itself.
Some kind of Magus. I could do some kind of Magus. Maybe Suli?
Any thoughts? Ideas on how to expand these concepts? Suggestions for a simple, fun, and not-too-overpowered concept of which I didn't think? I'm open to whatever you have.

[LTwerewolf]

I think the most fun thing of that list for the other players would be the wishcrafter ifrit. It's suboptimal in build, but the player behind it is more than capable of making it work, while allowing for a lot of interesting interaction with the rest of the party. Maybe even work something out with the dm for some backstory.

The monk/paladin is a bit complicated and can scare people off, even if it's not an absolute powerhouse (which it very well could be). The kitsune sorcerer has the possibility of just saying "no" to some of the dm's encounters, and if they're new they might not know how to cope yet. The gunslinger really has no issue good or bad, but depending on what personality you have for them, offers a little less than the ifrit. Magus I find for new dms are also hard to cope with because they can do so much burst damage out of the box compared to other classes. For a new dm I would choose either the gunslinger or the wishcrafter. Once they get some experience, I'm sure you could break out the other builds without issue. In my experience, the first character you play with a group really sets a precedent for how they're going to interact with you, so I would err on the side of more interactive.

[Red Fel]

My only big challenge with the Wishcrafter is that I have traditionally played martial classes, so my spell knowledge remains finite. Not a problem for a Sorc, given that I'm operating from a limited list, but meaning that I need to choose my flexible options carefully.

But yeah, I agree that it's probably a pretty fun concept, if not high-op.

[LTwerewolf]

If it's spell list assistance, I'm sure lots of people here can help with that. I also haven't played as many casters in pathfinder (we tend to play 3.P, with the base rules being 3.5) but I seem to remember quite a few differences that makes my memory of the spells a little less than reliable.

[Krazzman]

Here's where I need help. I have a few general ideas, but I could use more, and I could use help refining the ones I have. Some concepts follow.
Aasimar Monk/Cleric/Paladin/CoI. I've discussed this build before (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18364419&postcount=50). On the one hand, it's an unarmed Monk/Paladin, so it's not going to be devastatingly powerful. On the other, it is complex, CoI is not from the core rulebook, and it might intimidate the rest of the players; plus there's the fact that I'd be bringing a Paladin to a new table, where unknown player and DM biases are a thing.
Ifrit Sorcerer (Wishcrafter). Be a mad genie. It's sub-optimal, but it's also flexible, and fun.
Kitsune Sorcerer. Either straight Fey Bloodline, emphasis on enchantment/compulsion; Rakshasa Bloodline, Realistic Likeness feat, emphasis on blending in; or Crossblooded, both.
Asura-Spawn Tiefling Gunslinger with Prehensile Tail. Writes itself.
Some kind of Magus. I could do some kind of Magus. Maybe Suli?
Any thoughts? Ideas on how to expand these concepts? Suggestions for a simple, fun, and not-too-overpowered concept of which I didn't think? I'm open to whatever you have.

First of all: Congratulations on this chance.

Second:
If it is really a CORE game then Magus, Gunslinger and CoI might not be available. As well as quite some feats.

Let's assume everything will be ok though:
Magus is quite "easy". You take your bread'n'butter spell and use the hell out of it. The guide that's been posted here is quite good. Races that give either Str or Dex and no Int penalty are most likely good picks, in some cases there are better picks for sure but then almost everyone would be human... which would be boring. If going Suli I would advise going Eldritch Scion (since having a penalty for your secondary attribute certainly sucks)... sadly it can't be taken with Elemental Knight.

About gunslinger... no clue sorry never even tried to play one.
As for the Sorcerers... don't focus too much on thematic spells only. If another player rolls a Cleric or Wizard, speak with them when you want to take one of the seriously "good" spells like Haste.

IF Gunslinger and such are allowed and you want your Holy Fist-Fighter, ask the DM about Warpriest. I still haven't tried them out but heard overall good things about it.

Good luck

[Seppo87]

Not a problem for a Sorc, given that I'm operating from a limited list, but meaning that I need to choose my flexible options carefully
In my experience, Pathfinder is a lot easier than 3.5 in this regard.
The number of spells is much smaller, you can read the entire list in pfsrd comfortably and if you filter the results to only show core, you can choose your spells for a given spell level in minutes, even if you didn't know any of the spells as an experienced player you will be able to evaluate them on the fly.

[Kurald Galain]

Magus guide, at your service (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?423754-Myrrh-Frankincense-and-Steel-Kurald-Galain-s-Guide-to-the-Magus). Comes at all op levels, really.

[Red Fel]

If it's spell list assistance, I'm sure lots of people here can help with that. I also haven't played as many casters in pathfinder (we tend to play 3.P, with the base rules being 3.5) but I seem to remember quite a few differences that makes my memory of the spells a little less than reliable.

Fair point.

So, I'm looking at the Wishcrafter archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-ifrit/wishcrafter-sorcerer-ifrit) and, while flavorful... It has some faults.

First, no Bloodline Arcana. That's a bit disappointing, but on the other hand it gets a floating +1 CL to any spell someone wishes for. Second, no Bloodline Spell list; you get spells of your choice, rather than a fixed list, but they can only be one slot lower than your highest, and can only be used to grant wishes, which kind of sucks up the RP aspect if everyone has to "wish" for buffs or something.

Then there's Heart's Desire, which forces a target to make a wish - which is only as good as the DM allows it to be, and I don't want to put that kind of burden on a new DM. Twisted Wish, lowers saves, but again requires targets to actually say something, which may not be very useful in combat. And Perfect Wishcraft is nice, but that's a level 19 ability, and campaigns don't generally go there.

While Sorcerer is probably a fun option, I think Wishcrafter is a bit of an awkward choice unless the DM is particularly quick on his/her feet.


In my experience, Pathfinder is a lot easier than 3.5 in this regard.
The number of spells is much smaller, you can read the entire list in pfsrd comfortably and if you filter the results to only show core, you can choose your spells for a given spell level in minutes, even if you didn't know any of the spells as an experienced player you will be able to evaluate them on the fly.

That's a fair point, yeah. PFSRD is super convenient. I'd probably end up making my own list if I went with one, though, because I like having hard copy.


First of all: Congratulations on this chance.

Second:
If it is really a CORE game then Magus, Gunslinger and CoI might not be available. As well as quite some feats.

Let's assume everything will be ok though:
Magus is quite "easy". You take your bread'n'butter spell and use the hell out of it. The guide that's been posted here is quite good. Races that give either Str or Dex and no Int penalty are most likely good picks, in some cases there are better picks for sure but then almost everyone would be human... which would be boring. If going Suli I would advise going Eldritch Scion (since having a penalty for your secondary attribute certainly sucks)... sadly it can't be taken with Elemental Knight.

About gunslinger... no clue sorry never even tried to play one.
As for the Sorcerers... don't focus too much on thematic spells only. If another player rolls a Cleric or Wizard, speak with them when you want to take one of the seriously "good" spells like Haste.

IF Gunslinger and such are allowed and you want your Holy Fist-Fighter, ask the DM about Warpriest. I still haven't tried them out but heard overall good things about it.

Good luck

I can't imagine Magus and Gunslinger being left out, but I suppose it's possible. Warpriest, though, is a Hybrid Class, so I'm pretty sure that's right out there.

As for Magus-


Magus guide, at your service (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?423754-Myrrh-Frankincense-and-Steel-Kurald-Galain-s-Guide-to-the-Magus). Comes at all op levels, really.

Your guide doesn't mention Suli! You mention the Elemental Knight, which you don't favor - and I can see why - but not the Suli themselves. Not that good?

Also, another thought, Half-Orc Scarred Witch Doctor. Good idea, bad idea?

[ATHATH]

Note that you can use Twisted Wish to make your buff spells harder to dispel.

[enderlord99]

I can't imagine Magus and Gunslinger being left out

Well, since they're not core classes (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes)...

[Kurald Galain]

So, I'm looking at the Wishcrafter archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-ifrit/wishcrafter-sorcerer-ifrit) and, while flavorful... It has some faults.
While I like the concept of a wish-granting efreeti sorcerer, I wouldn't use the wishcrafter archetype for that; the regular sorc can also do it.


Your guide doesn't mention Suli! You mention the Elemental Knight, which you don't favor - and I can see why - but not the Suli themselves. Not that good?
They're a natural at the Eldritch Scion (the spontaneous casting bloodlined charismatic Magus). For other builds, their intelligence penalty makes them not so great, but still workable.

[Seppo87]

By the way, archetypes are not core.

This is core:
Classes (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/classes.html)
Feats (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/feats.html)
Spells (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/spellLists.html)
etc

Mostly, core classes are quite good and playable, with some caveats;
Cleric and Wizard are definitely fine. If you know what you're doing, they rock
Druid and Monk require very high stats (you can have a viable druid if you only focus on one aspect; do not expect the absolute versatility of 3.5 druid)
Paladin and Ranger are mostly fine, good stats are helpful
Core Rogue must be built carefully; no Slayer around means it's still the king of mundane sneaking (including surprise/flanking damage) high amounts of wealth are recommended for UMD
Bard depends mostly on how you play it. It can easily overshadow a rogue at almost everything imho
Sorcerer suffers from the lack of human's alternate FC bonus (spells known)
Barbarian and Fighter are okay at their intended role if well built, DPR and survivability are appropriate and make them look competent at all levels, as long as the challenge involves exchanging hits

[Red Fel]

Note that you can use Twisted Wish to make your buff spells harder to dispel.

True, but a first-time DM of a "fun, casual" campaign probably isn't going to be diving into dispelling that quickly.


Well, since they're not core classes (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes)...

... That's a fair point, actually.


While I like the concept of a wish-granting efreeti sorcerer, I wouldn't use the wishcrafter archetype for that; the regular sorc can also do it.

True, true. Bit less flavorful, but definitely more functional.


They're a natural at the Eldritch Scion (the spontaneous casting bloodlined charismatic Magus). For other builds, their intelligence penalty makes them not so great, but still workable.

Yeah, I noticed you mentioned that part. Fair point.


By the way, archetypes are not core.

This is core:
Classes (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/classes.html)
Feats (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/feats.html)
Spells (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/spellLists.html)
etc

Huh. I never stopped to think about it, but yeah, that's true. Bit dull, though, with everything else PF has to offer.


Mostly, core classes are quite good and playable, with some caveats;
Cleric and Wizard are definitely fine. If you know what you're doing, they rock

As someone who generally avoids playing primary casters, I do not.


Druid and Monk require very high stats (you can have a viable druid if you only focus on one aspect; do not expect the absolute versatility of 3.5 druid)

As I do not know whether this will be point-buy or dice-rolled, I don't think that's going to be a guarantee.


Paladin and Ranger are mostly fine, good stats are helpful
Core Rogue must be built carefully; no Slayer around means it's still the king of mundane sneaking (including surprise/flanking damage) high amounts of wealth are recommended for UMD
Bard depends mostly on how you play it. It can easily overshadow a rogue at almost everything imho
Sorcerer suffers from the lack of human's alternate FC bonus (spells known)
Barbarian and Fighter are okay at their intended role if well built, DPR and survivability are appropriate and make them look competent at all levels, as long as the challenge involves exchanging hits

Fair points, yeah.

One thing, while the DM did say core, it was with the caveat that other classes or races might be made available if players are interested. At least as far as archetypes for core classes, I can't imagine saying no if asked, given that those are (at least in my mind) one of the more defining traits of PF.

So, coming back to things. Assuming purely core, I'll probably keep things simple and go Half-Orc Barbarian.

Assuming, however, that archetypes are on the table for core classes and uncommon races are available, it's a bit more up in the air. I'm thinking I might either go with the simple-but-effective Ifrit Sorcerer (Fire Bloodline), or something more melee-oriented. Maybe some archetype of Fighter or Barbarian? Maybe an Undine Watersinger? Maybe some combination of Monk archetypes?

Basically, I think I'm leaning away from casters, unless they're fairly simple, and towards more martial options. Any suggestions?

[meemaas]

I notice nobody has suggested an Inquisitor yet, so let me be the first to do that. It's got a good melee chassis, some good self buff class features, lots of skill points, and a spontaneous Divine casting list, which is chock full of buffs. Save Bane to be one of the Big Guns, when something needs to die or your party will, and you likely won't overshadow anyone either. Also let's you pick up Cure spells, which despite everything this forum tells us, do have their place. If it gets down to it, you can literally play an Inquisitor as a Rogue without sneak attack who can cast Cure between combats.

[CockroachTeaParty]

I notice nobody has suggested an Inquisitor yet, so let me be the first to do that. It's got a good melee chassis, some good self buff class features, lots of skill points, and a spontaneous Divine casting list, which is chock full of buffs. Save Bane to be one of the Big Guns, when something needs to die or your party will, and you likely won't overshadow anyone either. Also let's you pick up Cure spells, which despite everything this forum tells us, do have their place. If it gets down to it, you can literally play an Inquisitor as a Rogue without sneak attack who can cast Cure between combats.

Interestingly, having recently played an inquisitor, I can say that you can use Bane quite liberally. I often found myself using it in between activations of judgement.

Your judgements are your best self buff, lasting an entire fight and allowing you to change bonuses on the fly. You can have both judgment and bane up, of course, but they both take swift actions to turn on.

However, since you can use bane on a round-by-round basis, in a fight where you're not sure you want to blow a use of judgement, you can just turn on bane instead. The extra damage is nice, but the attack bonus quickly trails behind judgment.

If you can line up all your ducks in a row, you can do some scary things in a fight, but the opportunities to cast Divine Favor and other shorter duration buffs before a fight, then a swift action to turn on judgement, and another swift to turn on bane... often times the fight is over before everything is 'online.' It's a very swift action-thirsty class.

But yeah, inquisitor is a good time. Don't worry too much about running out of bane rounds, though; it very rarely ever happened to me.

[Red Fel]

I notice nobody has suggested an Inquisitor yet, so let me be the first to do that. It's got a good melee chassis, some good self buff class features, lots of skill points, and a spontaneous Divine casting list, which is chock full of buffs. Save Bane to be one of the Big Guns, when something needs to die or your party will, and you likely won't overshadow anyone either. Also let's you pick up Cure spells, which despite everything this forum tells us, do have their place. If it gets down to it, you can literally play an Inquisitor as a Rogue without sneak attack who can cast Cure between combats.


Interestingly, having recently played an inquisitor, I can say that you can use Bane quite liberally. I often found myself using it in between activations of judgement.

Your judgements are your best self buff, lasting an entire fight and allowing you to change bonuses on the fly. You can have both judgment and bane up, of course, but they both take swift actions to turn on.

However, since you can use bane on a round-by-round basis, in a fight where you're not sure you want to blow a use of judgement, you can just turn on bane instead. The extra damage is nice, but the attack bonus quickly trails behind judgment.

If you can line up all your ducks in a row, you can do some scary things in a fight, but the opportunities to cast Divine Favor and other shorter duration buffs before a fight, then a swift action to turn on judgement, and another swift to turn on bane... often times the fight is over before everything is 'online.' It's a very swift action-thirsty class.

But yeah, inquisitor is a good time. Don't worry too much about running out of bane rounds, though; it very rarely ever happened to me.

Well, assuming the DM keeps to "core only" classes, that rules out Inquisitor. Of course, it also rules out a pretty solid chunk of what distinguishes PF from 3.5, but that's another issue entirely.

But... Hm. I've never really looked long at Inquisitor. Frankly, I've only ever glanced over it to notice that Ifrits have an archetype for it (Immolator). I suppose I could dig up a guide and see how much one can do with it. My concern is whether it might out-DPS the more traditional martial classes too easily, which might intimidate a new DM.

[meemaas]

Well, assuming the DM keeps to "core only" classes, that rules out Inquisitor. Of course, it also rules out a pretty solid chunk of what distinguishes PF from 3.5, but that's another issue entirely.

But... Hm. I've never really looked long at Inquisitor. Frankly, I've only ever glanced over it to notice that Ifrits have an archetype for it (Immolator). I suppose I could dig up a guide and see how much one can do with it. My concern is whether it might out-DPS the more traditional martial classes too easily, which might intimidate a new DM.

In mid-op, with a new DM, I could easily see it out damaging a poorly built core martial. But that's assuming you are using both Bane and Judgement, which is why I suggest using Bane as a Trump card rather than a regular tactic.