Monk's Unarmored Movement improvement

[Tanarii]

Player is approaching Monk 9, at which they will get:
"... the ability to move along vertical surfaces [...] on your turn without falling during the move."

Player wants to know how I'm ruling a few things:
1) is it horizontal movement only as it says "along"?
2) if not, does vertical "climbing movement" still cost 2 ft for each ft of movement per PHB 182?
3) does it eliminate the need for checks for climbing slippery vertical surface or one with few handholds?

I'm inclined to go with:
A) it prevents falling for no matter which way the vertical movement is for difficulty is, no checks required during movement. But checks would be required when movement ended (if difficult enough to justify a check) and possibly for something trying to knock you off while moving, as normal.
b) moving up still costs extra movement, per the climbing rules. Effects of features that negate this work as normal.

This means the Monk can still run up a smooth wall (provided he can make it to the top before movement ends), just not as fast as a Thief or something with a Climb speed.

What are your thoughts?

[ad_hoc]

I don't think it costs extra movement because you aren't climbing.

It is normal movement for you.

This also holds true when moving along liquids. You aren't swimming.

[Tanarii]

it'd be just as easy to interpret it as normal movement, but only along the vertical surface. Not allowing any movement up one at all. I don't want to be that restrictive. But I don't really want to make it a climb speed, since it clearly isn't.

[ad_hoc]

it'd be just as easy to interpret it as normal movement, but only along the vertical surface. Not allowing any movement up one at all. I don't want to be that restrictive. But I don't really want to make it a climb speed, since it clearly isn't.

I don't follow.

[bid]

What are your thoughts?
I'd treat it as a limited version of barbarian eagle flight.

Walk on water or vertical surface as if it was normal ground, but must end your turn at a safe spot.

[Tanarii]

Movement "along" a vertical surface possibly implies it doesn't cover "up" A vertical surface.

[MeeposFire]

Well I think that if you have a climb speed you could end your turn on a wall but the monk must end on a horizontal surface or fall.

I would need to check that though.

[rudy]

Movement "along" a vertical surface possibly implies it doesn't cover "up" A vertical surface.
That's so very clearly not what was intended. That would be so situational an ability as to be useless.

[Tanarii]

That's so very clearly not what was intended. That would be so situational an ability as to be useless.
Interesting. To me that's very clearly what WAS intended. I thought I was proposing a house rule to loosen the restriction somewhat, while still retaining some of advantage for Thief and things that give Climb Speed.

Edit: both the player and I read it that way, so I'm probably okay going with the "going up still costs double" rule.

[ad_hoc]

Movement "along" a vertical surface possibly implies it doesn't cover "up" A vertical surface.

Oh I see where you are coming from now.

This is how I read it:

Moving "along" a vertical surface is moving 'up' it as its definition of a vertical surface means that is the way it goes.

I thought they used the term 'along' instead of 'up' to allow for other directions as desired by the player. Moving 'up' a vertical service is a bit redundant as well.

Moving 'across' a vertical service would be how to travel perpendicular to it, in effect staying at the same height.

[rudy]

Edit: both the player and I read it that way, so I'm probably okay going with the "going up still costs double" rule.
Eh. I don't agree, because they're not "climbing, swimming [or] crawling" (PHB 182), but I don't think that's necessarily a 'bad' interpretation either. As long as you're not actually forbidding the use of it to go up, it's not a significant nerf.

[Mellack]

I don't think it follows the climbing rules at all. They are not climbing, they are moving (running) normally. It is now just that a monk can move along vertical surfaces as if they were a horizontal one. I would have no extra cost for going up or down compared to forward on a wall, just as there is no extra cost on the floor to move sideways compared to forward.

[ad_hoc]

I did a search and didn't find anything so I sent a Tweet to Jeremy for clarification.

[R.Shackleford]

Player is approaching Monk 9, at which they will get:
"... the ability to move along vertical surfaces [...] on your turn without falling during the move."

Player wants to know how I'm ruling a few things:
1) is it horizontal movement only as it says "along"?
2) if not, does vertical "climbing movement" still cost 2 ft for each ft of movement per PHB 182?
3) does it eliminate the need for checks for climbing slippery vertical surface or one with few handholds?

I'm inclined to go with:
A) it prevents falling for no matter which way the vertical movement is for difficulty is, no checks required during movement. But checks would be required when movement ended (if difficult enough to justify a check) and possibly for something trying to knock you off while moving, as normal.
b) moving up still costs extra movement, per the climbing rules. Effects of features that negate this work as normal.

This means the Monk can still run up a smooth wall (provided he can make it to the top before movement ends), just not as fast as a Thief or something with a Climb speed.

What are your thoughts?

Rule of "don't be mean to your players for the sake of being mean to your players"

Dude isn't swimming or climbing, they are moving "as normal". They normally don't have a movement penalty for moving.

[Tanarii]

I did a search and didn't find anything so I sent a Tweet to Jeremy for clarification.
Cool thanks. I'd rather know what the actual rule is supposed to be first, despite being fairly sure how I want to run it.

I think my (and the players) view of the ability comes from seeing it as meant to be for wall-running. Similar to is often done in the Matrix. Even in Crouching Tiger, they're still climbing and jumping when they go 'up', not just running up at full speed like its a flat surface. Since that's two of the inspirations, that's probably where our viewpoint comes from.

[ad_hoc]

Cool thanks. I'd rather know what the actual rule is supposed to be first, despite being fairly sure how I want to run it.

I think my (and the players) view of the ability comes from seeing it as meant to be for wall-running. Similar to is often done in the Matrix. Even in Crouching Tiger, they're still climbing and jumping when they go 'up', not just running up at full speed like its a flat surface. Since that's two of the inspirations, that's probably where our viewpoint comes from.

I see that. I think it depends on what a level 9 Monk represents.

If the ability were gained at level 3 instead, then the wording would seem odd to me and I might agree with you.

Jumping on clouds is also a thing that people do in those sorts of movies. What level Monk does that represent?

I suppose it never occurred to me to think that it was weird for a level 9 Monk, who is a magical being, to be able to run up walls. At level 6 a Way of Shadow Monk can teleport after all.

I'm not saying you are wrong to think of it in those terms. Just that I come to a different conclusion even with the same source material.

[Isidorios]

Movement "along" a vertical surface possibly implies it doesn't cover "up" A vertical surface.

You cannot be serious.
Ohwaityourseriousletmelaughharder.jpg

It allows you to run up walls. Not along the base of them. To do that, you run and stuff.

[Fflewddur Fflam]

Even in Crouching Tiger, they're still climbing and jumping when they go 'up', not just running up at full speed like its a flat surface.

Maybe you should watch Crouching Tiger again because they are very much running along walls at full speed and horizontally to the wall at times too.

[rudy]

Maybe you should watch Crouching Tiger again
Like you need an excuse.

[TheFlyingCleric]

A 7th level monk can stand in the middle of a fireball, and while the ground around his feet gets charred to a crisp they remain barely singed.

I'm inclined to interpret the rules in a way that is kind to the Monk. Because being beaten up by pseudo-magical ninjas often offends.

[Fflewddur Fflam]

Like you need an excuse.

It's true, I don't. Love that flick.

[Tanarii]

I suppose it never occurred to me to think that it was weird for a level 9 Monk, who is a magical being, to be able to run up walls. At level 6 a Way of Shadow Monk can teleport after all.Actually that's a fair point. Because the ability I'm mentally comparing it too, and not wanting it to step on the toes of, are a level 3 Rogue sub-class feature, and level 2 spells. A level 3 spell gives it flying.


That said, my potential ruling doesn't prevent running up walls. It just makes upward movement slower than full speed.


Maybe you should watch Crouching Tiger again because they are very much running along walls at full speed and horizontally to the wall at times too.But when they run 'up' they either use acrobatic jumps and leaps between surfaces, or go slower than their full running speed. They often slip-run (like trying to move forward faster than a treadmill moving backwards) trying to go up walls.

[R.Shackleford]

You cannot be serious.
Ohwaityourseriousletmelaughharder.jpg

It allows you to run up walls. Not along the base of them. To do that, you run and stuff.

Everyone knows the only way to do anything cool is if you cast an arcane or divine spell. Anything else is badwrongfun!

/s

[Yuki Akuma]

But when they run 'up' they either use acrobatic jumps and leaps between surfaces, or go slower than their full running speed. They often slip-run (like trying to move forward faster than a treadmill moving backwards) trying to go up walls.

And you are incapable of imagining that somehow Monks can do that at the same speed they can run?

[Daishain]

Notice that they specified that the monk does not fall during the move.

Presumably, we're talking about Prince of Persia style parkour here. The monk can run along walls for their full move speed, but there'd better be a place to stand or at least grab on and stop at the end of that move speed.

Personally, if they don't stop at a safe location, I would make them roll a climb check to grab on, with the DC adjusted for what kind of perch is available. I would also let them run up the wall, but that direction is treated as difficult terrain

[Fflewddur Fflam]

But when they run 'up' they either use acrobatic jumps and leaps between surfaces, or go slower than their full running speed. They often slip-run (like trying to move forward faster than a treadmill moving backwards) trying to go up walls.

Sure, but it's a little bit of strawman argument to bring up Crouching Tiger anyway. The D&D monk was not created from Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. It was created all the way back before 2nd edition. How a Chinese movie shows magical warriors doing stuff does not equal what a D&D monk is.

That being said, Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon also has a stunning strike shot. :smallwink:

[Siosilvar]

Sure, but it's a little bit of strawman argument to bring up Crouching Tiger anyway. The D&D monk was not created from Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. It was created all the way back before 2nd edition. How a Chinese movie shows magical warriors doing stuff does not equal what a D&D monk is.

That being said, Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon also has a stunning strike shot. :smallwink:

The D&D monk draws from the same source material as Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon does. That's not a strawman argument, the monk has been a pseudomystical faux-East-Asian class since its inception. The level titles from name level in AD&D are "Master of Dragons", "Master of the X Wind", "Master of X Season", and "Grand Master of Flowers". The class itself is basically unchanged between the 1e PHB and OA.

It's not really full-blown Wuxia in the CTHD sense, but it was grown along the same lines.

[Tanarii]

Sure, but it's a little bit of strawman argument to bring up Crouching Tiger anyway. The D&D monk was not created from Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. It was created all the way back before 2nd edition. How a Chinese movie shows magical warriors doing stuff does not equal what a D&D monk is.

That being said, Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon also has a stunning strike shot. :smallwink:
It wasn't intended to be an argument, so much as an explanation of one of the primary sources of "things I think of" when it comes to running along/up walls. The others being several scenes in the matrix, and prince of persia. In other words, I was explaining the source of my bias. :smallwink:

[Fflewddur Fflam]

It wasn't intended to be an argument, so much as an explanation of one of the primary sources of "things I think of" when it comes to running along/up walls. The others being several scenes in the matrix, and prince of persia. In other words, I was explaining the source of my bias. :smallwink:

ahhhhhh!!!!!

[SillyPopeNachos]

My take on many things is that RAW and RAI are suggestions. If one of my players were to ask, it would be: the movement can be horizontal or vertical at normal speed, and it prevents you from falling until you end your movement (much like the free running horizontally along walls in games like Prince of Persia).

[HeyBJ]

Player wants to know how I'm ruling a few things:
1) is it horizontal movement only as it says "along"?
2) if not, does vertical "climbing movement" still cost 2 ft for each ft of movement per PHB 182?
3) does it eliminate the need for checks for climbing slippery vertical surface or one with few handholds?

1) I believe it includes vertical movement. Otherwise, it's so situational that it's just silly.
2) It's not climbing, so it wouldn't be climbing movement. If it costs extra movement a la difficult terrain, I'm pretty sure it would be in the description.
3) Handholds are irrelevant since the monk is running, not climbing. Slippery or watery surfaces (a waterfall, for instance) might need a check or maybe then treat it as difficult terrain.