Magic and Physics

[mgshamster]

Does magic follow the physics of the world it exists in, or does it break the bounds of reality and go beyond what in-world physics dictates?

Note: this is a just-for-fun thought exercise.

[BurgerBeast]

I personally like the notion that magic is the physics of the fantasy world. If there was such a thing a scientist, in a fantasy setting, he would be a student of magic because magic is a part of the natural world. The two would be almost indistinguishable.

Common notions that we have, in today's world, that we on earth have stopped viewing as mystical, would be rationalized not as science but as magic, and these rationalizations would be correct.

Disease is not caused by micro-organisms in the fantasy world, it's caused by upsetting the god of disease or angering other gods, or by the curses of witches and warlocks. The same for the weather - no amount of meteorology can predict the god of thunder's mood on any given day. Sacrificing to the god of thunder is a wise thing (even a scientific thing) to do because it can actually improve his mood. Alcohol is not a type of molecule that interacts chemically with the body. Alcohol is magical and has magical effects, including but not limited to increasing morale and libido. The "old-wives tales" that attribute magical properties to garlic, chicken soup, and ginseng are not pseudoscience, they're the truth. These foods are in fact magical and can cure colds and whatever else they are claimed to cure.

[RickAllison]

I personally like the notion that magic is the physics of the fantasy world. If there was such a thing a scientist, in a fantasy setting, he would be a student of magic because magic is a part of the natural world. The two would be almost indistinguishable.

Common notions that we have, in today's world, that we on earth have stopped viewing as mystical, would be rationalized not as science but as magic, and these rationalizations would be correct.

Disease is not caused by micro-organisms in the fantasy world, it's caused by upsetting the god of disease or angering other gods, or by the curses of witches and warlocks. The same for the weather - no amount of meteorology can predict the god of thunder's mood on any given day. Sacrificing to the god of thunder is a wise thing (even a scientific thing) to do because it can actually improve his mood. Alcohol is not a type of molecule that interacts chemically with the body. Alcohol is magical and has magical effects, including but not limited to increasing morale and libido. The "old-wives tales" that attribute magical properties to garlic, chicken soup, and ginseng are not pseudoscience, they're the truth. These foods are in fact magical and can cure colds and whatever else they are claimed to cure.

Where this falls apart is when the books explicitly refer to more conventional sciences. Based on the text of Continual Flame, fire does operate by transforming chemical energy through turning oxygen into CO2. We have text about the use of enzymes within the D&D worlds.

I don't dispute that magic is part of the physics of that world, but I think it is an added layer onto the physics that already exist in our own. Alcohol is not inherently magical, its effects are chemicals. Magic can, however, alter the process of alcohol metabolization so one can become more drunk than normally possible through that level of alcohol. When allowed to run its course, weather follows the same patterns that it does in our universe; it only differs greatly when magic is used to alter the process, and that likely produces its own patterns if it is a regular incident (like a place cursed to be eternally and magically storm-ridden will alter weather patterns in a scientific way that can be studied and then used for meteorological reports). Diseases still work as they do in our world, but powerful magic-users can empower them or use magical strains to produce different traits. The holistic medicine like ginseng interacts with people no differently than in our world, but it could empower magic by creating a conduit that lets healing magic more freely flow throughout the body.

I think the evidence points to having ordinary physics, with a layer of magical physics laid on top of it.

[smcmike]

Generally I like the approach suggested by BurgerBeast. The fact that fire needs oxygen doesn't mean that fire works the exact same way as it does in real life. I particularly like the idea of playing around with old "scientific" theories about the world when building magic systems. The works of Umberto Eco and John Crowley do some good stuff with this.

On the other hand, I think compelling worlds can be made by approaching this question from all sorts of directions. I also like the idea of a basically mundane world in which magic is some sort of intrusion, or maybe a terrible sin.

One thing I don't like is when magic is mundane. It's ok for the mundane to be magical, but when magic is systematized and understood and basically boring, that turns me off. This is a problem when playing a game, since games have to have systems to account for things.

[R.Shackleford]

Does magic follow the physics of the world it exists in, or does it break the bounds of reality and go beyond what in-world physics dictates?

Note: this is a just-for-fun thought exercise.

Within the D&D world, magic is part of their "physics" much like how we use science.


Side note: Really, our tech in the real world is magic, I mean... like... how do records + needs work? How does your cell phone work? It might as well be black magic to 99+% of the population who have ever used these technologies.

[RickAllison]

Within the D&D world, magic is part of their "physics" much like how we use science.


Side note: Really, our tech in the real world is magic, I mean... like... how do records + needs work? How does your cell phone work? It might as well be black magic to 99+% of the population who have ever used these technologies.

The most magical thing about our technology is probably the same thing we are using to discuss this topic, the Internet. I want to know how cell phones work, I can get a decent answer within seconds. The closest things we have in D&D are powerful divination spells (which will likely come with the consequence that Gond and his divine helpers have more important things to do than explain just how smithing works and so won't be happy), or the Knowledge Cleric's Knowledge of the Ages which is limited to ten minutes and only so often per short rest. Getting to out-perform a cleric of knowledge seems pretty dang magical...

[R.Shackleford]

The most magical thing about our technology is probably the same thing we are using to discuss this topic, the Internet. I want to know how cell phones work, I can get a decent answer within seconds. The closest things we have in D&D are powerful divination spells (which will likely come with the consequence that Gond and his divine helpers have more important things to do than explain just how smithing works and so won't be happy), or the Knowledge Cleric's Knowledge of the Ages which is limited to ten minutes and only so often per short rest. Getting to out-perform a cleric of knowledge seems pretty dang magical...

Show a man who has never seen fire a zippo, you just showed that man magic.

Technology and magic is indistinguishable really. Especially technology that is beyond what you can understand or know.

But it's a good thing humans have become hive minds and can use the Internet to learn new thkngs.

[Sigreid]

Magic is just something I can do that defies your understanding of how the world works, and I won't explain it to you. :) It's Science. I like to think of it as practical quantum physics.

[RSP]

I always wonder what the impact of magic is on the average life span of commoners. The vast majority of what kills people is some sort of disease, which in D&D is ridiculously easy to cure. I'm assuming every Pally spends all their non adventuring days just eradicating cancer, diabetes, senility, etc.

Even psychoses are permanently curable above and beyond our current technology. Born with autism or MS? Greater Restoration should cure that with one casting (if they exist in D&D.

If it wasn't for raiding orcs or ornery dragons, the D&D worlds would be so over populated (even with these things trimming down the population of the "good" races I think a strong argument could be made that heavy magic worlds like Faerun would still be heavily overpopulated, due to the basically limitless healing available).

[R.Shackleford]

I always wonder what the impact of magic is on the average life span of commoners. The vast majority of what kills people is some sort of disease, which in D&D is ridiculously easy to cure. I'm assuming every Pally spends all their non adventuring days just eradicating cancer, diabetes, senility, etc.

Even psychoses are permanently curable above and beyond our current technology. Born with autism or MS? Greater Restoration should cure that with one casting (if they exist in D&D.

If it wasn't for raiding orcs or ornery dragons, the D&D worlds would be so over populated (even with these things trimming down the population of the "good" races I think a strong argument could be made that heavy magic worlds like Faerun would still be heavily overpopulated, due to the basically limitless healing available).

Tippyverse 3.5 would be a good read for you .

However, even with 5e magic, most issues are taken care of and you wouldn't have the feudal system. Probably a religious based society where arcane magic never got going (except for warlocks) as being a cleric or some sort of divine caster fills all the needs of poeole.

[Madbox]

Tippyverse 3.5 would be a good read for you .

However, even with 5e magic, most issues are taken care of and you wouldn't have the feudal system. Probably a religious based society where arcane magic never got going (except for warlocks) as being a cleric or some sort of divine caster fills all the needs of poeole.

I gotta disagree with you here. Arcane magic and science would exist as pointless oddities at first, but sooner or later some nerd with no life will come along and get obsessed, and develop it further. There's a reason why many companies and institutions fund seemingly pointless research. History has shown that seemingly trivial factoids can lead to important discoveries.

For example, imaginary numbers were mocked when they were first developed, but a few centuries later they were found to be perfectly suited for electrical engineering purposes.

[Hrugner]

I think of science in D&D as something like gravity. With enough magical force you can prevent the natural world from behaving correctly, but over time the natural world reasserts itself. Without being able to rely on the natural world for structure and force, the magician needs to provide all of the information that would normally be taken care of by the natural order of things.

[R.Shackleford]

I gotta disagree with you here. Arcane magic and science would exist as pointless oddities at first, but sooner or later some nerd with no life will come along and get obsessed, and develop it further. There's a reason why many companies and institutions fund seemingly pointless research. History has shown that seemingly trivial factoids can lead to important discoveries.

For example, imaginary numbers were mocked when they were first developed, but a few centuries later they were found to be perfectly suited for electrical engineering purposes.

Thats fine but we are talking about a world where electrical engineering wouldn't be needed. A world where even farming wouldn't be needed.

It isn't about mocking things, it's about just not needing them and even there was some arcane casters it would be warlocks and maybe casters.

Their deities can actually prove their existence so that's a huge factor.

[Regitnui]

Corollary to Arthur C Clarke's Law: "Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from technology". The original law: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic".

Taking those two together, magic is as much physics as science is. Imagine a wizard or educated sorcerer quoting Bigby's Three Laws of Thaumodynamism, or an aspiring necromancer ascribing the length of time zombies remain animated to Vecna's Theory of Shadowfell Energy.

[Madbox]

Thats fine but we are talking about a world where electrical engineering wouldn't be needed. A world where even farming wouldn't be needed.

It isn't about mocking things, it's about just not needing them and even there was some arcane casters it would be warlocks and maybe casters.

Their deities can actually prove their existence so that's a huge factor.

While I could see divine power taking care of needs, I doubt it would fulfill all wants. And gods don't usually like getting their time wasted entertaining the unwashed masses or doing menial labor. So someone figures out arcane casting mage hand, prestidigitation, and illusions because the gods aren't gonna put on a show for you and clean your bedroom.

Some humans are still going to want to rule others, so unless the gods personally put down every would-be tyrant, war will still exist, which means siege engines (if not gunpowder), which means math and engineering will be a thing. And fancy cathedrals don't build themselves.

Science and arcane magic would be developed more slowly, but there are still a few things they would be used for.

Also, electrical engineering was an example of trivia suddenly becoming super important. I was NOT saying that this theoretical world would necessarily develop it.

[DragonSorcererX]

Tippyverse 3.5 would be a good read for you .

However, even with 5e magic, most issues are taken care of and you wouldn't have the feudal system. Probably a religious based society where arcane magic never got going (except for warlocks) as being a cleric or some sort of divine caster fills all the needs of poeole.

Bards use arcane magic and they can heal, and a 4th level Bard can cure "mundane" diseases (Lesser Restoration) the same way the clerics do.

[Gastronomie]

Taking those two together, magic is as much physics as science is. Imagine a wizard or educated sorcerer quoting Bigby's Three Laws of Thaumodynamism, or an aspiring necromancer ascribing the length of time zombies remain animated to Vecna's Theory of Shadowfell Energy.This sort of stuff I find really fun and interesting. Experiment notes taken by famous wizards and such seem like essential details of a magical world, making it ever so realistic. Wizards are essentially pretty much the same thing as scientists anyways.

[RSP]

All casting classes would eventually come about, though it does seem divine would have the initial edge, just like how religion dominated science for a large portion of our history.

In D&D worlds, everyone is defined, more or less, by their 6 stats. You would have plenty of intellectuals with high Int scores exploring the "science" of arcane magic, even if some are treated like Galileo.

Plus, there are gods of arcane magic as well which would push the arcane users..

(Side note: I'm now stuck wondering, in worlds with 6 stats, what the conversation between parents and children would be. "When I grow up I'm going to be a Wizard!" "Oh, I'm sorry son, but Int is your dump stat. But you are very likable; why don't you focus on being a Bard?")

[R.Shackleford]

Bards use arcane magic and they can heal, and a 4th level Bard can cure "mundane" diseases (Lesser Restoration) the same way the clerics do.

Thats nice, however in a world were deities and demons can actually talk to you, and the afterlife is very real, I don't think bards would be very popular. At least not arcane bards. Divine bards? Yup.

Everyone would be a type of cleric, acolyte, or some other profession that was built around deities.

Think of it not as if the D&D world was built up with these ideas, not if they were placed on them afterwards.

[mgshamster]

Thats nice, however in a world were deities and demons can actually talk to you, and the afterlife is very real, I don't think bards would be very popular. At least not arcane bards. Divine bards? Yup.

Everyone would be a type of cleric, acolyte, or some other profession that was built around deities.

Think of it not as if the D&D world was built up with these ideas, not if they were placed on them afterwards.

There are also those who agree that deities and demons are powerful, but do not believe them to be worthy of worship. And may even believe that magic doesn't come from them, as in the case of the Paladin who gets divine magic through sheer strength of their own conviction and not any belief in a deity.

[pwykersotz]

I think that both interpretations are fine, but I prefer magic to be not-science. I like it to be wild and mysterious and ever-changing. The way I see it, replicable spells exist at the grace of Mystra, who has tamed a small subsection of magic for human use. But magic as a whole is beyond mortal law.

[R.Shackleford]

There are also those who agree that deities and demons are powerful, but do not believe them to be worthy of worship. And may even believe that magic doesn't come from them, as in the case of the Paladin who gets divine magic through sheer strength of their own conviction and not any belief in a deity.

There were wolves that didn't prefer the company of humans, look how small their numbers are compared to dogs.

Also look how comfortable many many many dogs have it compared to wolves.



I think that both interpretations are fine, but I prefer magic to be not-science. I like it to be wild and mysterious and ever-changing. The way I see it, replicable spells exist at the grace of Mystra, who has tamed a small subsection of magic for human use. But magic as a whole is beyond mortal law.

I don't see magic = science in D&D (in real life yes, magic and science are interchangeable due to the nature of humans) as in that it is this set thing... at least not always. Just that it is part of that universe's make up and rules.

Using magic isn't breaking any rules because magic IS the rules

[RickAllison]

I think that both interpretations are fine, but I prefer magic to be not-science. I like it to be wild and mysterious and ever-changing. The way I see it, replicable spells exist at the grace of Mystra, who has tamed a small subsection of magic for human use. But magic as a whole is beyond mortal law.

Do keep in mind that "wild, mysterious, and ever-changing" does not mean it follows scientific laws of its own. Chemistry, for example, is a field that appeared in a similar way until other sciences progressed to study more intricate parts of the field. Quantum physics has scientific principles that can be chartered, but we are still trying to figure them out. Magic being a science of its own just indicates that it has certain laws, not that they can be adequately studied by mortals.

[LaserFace]

I don't think the study of Magic as a replacement to what we understand of the natural world in our setting. In the absence of magic, I imagine the basic rules of physics, chemistry and biology all apply as we expect here in the real world. But, magic can sort of trivialize the ways some natural laws normally play out, by relying on stronger forces, which are largely not understood by mortals.

My personal taste is that a scholar might understand things like Thermodynamics, and might even piece together some wacky explanation for why someone is in fact not violating natural laws when they conjure a Fireball (blah blah Magical Energies allow for exceptions in these cases). But in most cases not, unless they are a Wizard, since I view them as the Magic Scientists. But, maybe even if they are a Wizard they might fail to grasp the whole picture, like philosophers back yonder thought sperm contained homonculi and the universe was made of concentric spheres and all that junk.

I think it's important to retain Magic as a bizarre, mystical force, because otherwise I'm just making a Fan-Fic Science, and that seems more appropriate in like, some kind of Space Opera game, than in the Sword and Sorcery type of game I tend towards with D&D.

[BurgerBeast]

I think the evidence points to having ordinary physics, with a layer of magical physics laid on top of it.
Oh yeah. The way the game is expressed, you are absolutely right. I just think that the way the game is expressed (with magic as an "added layer"), it creates more problems than it solves.

The most defining characteristic of magic, if you get right down to it, is that is is exclusive (whether the ability itself or the skill with the ability). Some people can hurl fireballs, but others cannot. Some people can summon 4 animals at once, some people can only charm 1 (or whatever). This makes it mystical or magical.

So what about the other things that people can't do? In a fantasy world, something like a katana (which seems mundane to us) might be a sword +3. The process of making it (which can be explained today) might be a magical process known only to a few people requiring magical procedures, magical abilities, and magical people. Indeed, having a +12 to a skill check might be seen as supernatural in the same way some people see the Shaolin monks as supernatural.

Making a sword involves turning ore into metal, and combining metals into alloys. This is either science or magic. I argue that is magical transmutation. The process that we view as mundane is magical in the fantasy world, and the people who can do it hold "arcane secrets" that nations would battle other nations to discover.


Thats fine but we are talking about a world where electrical engineering wouldn't be needed. A world where even farming wouldn't be needed.

I totally get this argument. In most published settings (for example FR), the frequency of magical ability brings this problem to the fore. In addition, most people, it seems to me, whether consciously or unconsciously, allow the ease with which parties of PCs appear in the game to skew their perception of just how rare a PC is.

The way I address it is to make magical waaaaay rarer than it is in those settings. There might be a priest in every town (a pious commoner), but not a Cleric. Town militias are comprised of commoners, and led by perhaps an NPC warrior-type. But fighters? They are rare. You usually have to go to the city to find one as the captain of the guard or in the royal guard. In my worlds, even a level 3 fighter would be known for his martial prowess. To give one more example, a tribe of barbarians would rarely contain a single barbarian, and if it did, he would be the leader of the tribe, and probably the over-chief of many other tribes, even at level 1-3.

[smcmike]

Do keep in mind that "wild, mysterious, and ever-changing" does not mean it follows scientific laws of its own. Chemistry, for example, is a field that appeared in a similar way until other sciences progressed to study more intricate parts of the field. Quantum physics has scientific principles that can be chartered, but we are still trying to figure them out. Magic being a science of its own just indicates that it has certain laws, not that they can be adequately studied by mortals.

Is there a difference between unknowable laws and no laws at all?

What if the laws are created by the knowing?

[RickAllison]

I don't think the study of Magic as a replacement to what we understand of the natural world in our setting. In the absence of magic, I imagine the basic rules of physics, chemistry and biology all apply as we expect here in the real world. But, magic can sort of trivialize the ways some natural laws normally play out, by relying on stronger forces, which are largely not understood by mortals.

My personal taste is that a scholar might understand things like Thermodynamics, and might even piece together some wacky explanation for why someone is in fact not violating natural laws when they conjure a Fireball (blah blah Magical Energies allow for exceptions in these cases). But in most cases not, unless they are a Wizard, since I view them as the Magic Scientists. But, maybe even if they are a Wizard they might fail to grasp the whole picture, like philosophers back yonder thought sperm contained homonculi and the universe was made of concentric spheres and all that junk.

I think it's important to retain Magic as a bizarre, mystical force, because otherwise I'm just making a Fan-Fic Science, and that seems more appropriate in like, some kind of Space Opera game, than in the Sword and Sorcery type of game I tend towards with D&D.

A good example of why magic still remains a bizarre, mystical force is smithing. For millennia, humans have known how to create new and useful metals from ore in rocks. They didn't understand what caused these materials to melt rather than burn, why they had the properties they did that were so different to metals, or were able to establish why each metal had its properties or how it interacted with other metals. They couldn't understand why metals behave so differently when slowly cooled than quenched. They didn't know much of anything of how metallurgy really worked! Yet they still used this science to innovate and create.

Same thing with magic. Even the thaumaturgical engineers like Mordenkainen who create new ways to fashion magic have no idea how it works in order to perfectly predict anything. They are scientists without the tools to see beyond and predict magic more than based on the results of previous experiments. Today we can predict the qualities of steel by looking at how much carbon goes in, how quickly it is quenched, and whether it was tempered and for how long. But that is because we have developed methods to view the fundamental processes that result in the steel, whereas wizards and the like are forced to discover through trial-and-error and predictions based on past discoveries and errors.


Oh yeah. The way the game is expressed, you are absolutely right. I just think that the way the game is expressed (with magic as an "added layer"), it creates more problems than it solves.

The most defining characteristic of magic, if you get right down to it, is that is is exclusive (whether the ability itself or the skill with the ability). Some people can hurl fireballs, but others cannot. Some people can summon 4 animals at once, some people can only charm 1 (or whatever). This makes it mystical or magical.

Some people in reality can create software that revolutionizes the world with its applications, whereas others can struggle with making an arithmetic calculator. Some people are more naturally talented (sorcerers), some study (wizards), some join organizations that give them the knowledge (clerics, druids), some simply believe they can do it and get into the thick of things (paladins). There could well be a science behind how sorcerers are naturally able to do something that wizards pore over texts to figure out, but we run into the same concepts in the real world and we can study why it is so. Magic is no more exclusive in D&D than the ability to create programs is in our world.


So what about the other things that people can't do? In a fantasy world, something like a katana (which seems mundane to us) might be a sword +3. The process of making it (which can be explained today) might be a magical process known only to a few people requiring magical procedures, magical abilities, and magical people. Indeed, having a +12 to a skill check might be seen as supernatural in the same way some people see the Shaolin monks as supernatural.

Making a sword involves turning ore into metal, and combining metals into alloys. This is either science or magic. I argue that is magical transmutation. The process that we view as mundane is magical in the fantasy world, and the people who can do it hold "arcane secrets" that nations would battle other nations to discover.

Weeaboo :smalltongue: I kid.

I agree that making a magic sword is likely an incredibly difficult art, one which few smiths will ever reach and the few that do will be unlikely to reach the pinnacles of its art. However we have no evidence that there isn't manipulation of magical laws that goes into those powerful swords. There are no masterwork swords in the 3e sense, a purely mundane sword forged by a master does not have +X anymore. The master instead is likely to be using the magic to infuse the weapon if he wants a +3 katana.


Is there a difference between unknowable laws and no laws at all?

What if the laws are created by the knowing?

Yes, yes there is. But I'm not even talking about unknowable laws, just unknown ones. A mortal could theoretically learn the laws, but just lack the equipment yet to study it. Instead, they have to hypothesize and discover the nature of these laws through examination of their effects rather than the cause.

If they were created by the knowing, how could they know the laws in order to create them? If those laws were created by them, there were no laws to know and thus they could not be the knowing without actually knowing these nonexistent laws. Basically, chicken and the egg! Instead, I prefer to think about deities and such not even truly knowing how those laws work yet. I don't even think gods of magic like Mystra know everything about it, and instead empower clerics to learn more (after all if she did, she would have known how fighting Helm would have gone...).

[pwykersotz]

Do keep in mind that "wild, mysterious, and ever-changing" does not mean it follows scientific laws of its own. Chemistry, for example, is a field that appeared in a similar way until other sciences progressed to study more intricate parts of the field. Quantum physics has scientific principles that can be chartered, but we are still trying to figure them out. Magic being a science of its own just indicates that it has certain laws, not that they can be adequately studied by mortals.

Correct. I mean that I don't like it to necessarily follow the scientific method. Unless the magic wants to. Sometimes.

I take issue with magic being put in a box. Even if it's a very large box. I like it being much bigger, and yet much smaller than the mortal experience. And to R.Shackleford, I like it to be from a source that is ultimately separate from the universe. I want it to break the rules. And I want it to cost something to do so. I want the wielder of mystic flame to have burned out his own conscience in order to master his power, but I don't want it to necessarily be able to be replicated by the next person who tries. And the power of love might redeem them. Unless it can't.

To me, magic is messy. Making it follow normal physical law is an admission that everything can be explained. Everything has reasons, even if they're unknown. I believe real life is like that. I don't want to define my fantasy in the same way. I already have physical law and NPC characterizations in the game experience that follow reason and cause/effect, but not everything needs to.

[mgshamster]

There were wolves that didn't prefer the company of humans, look how small their numbers are compared to dogs.

Also look how comfortable many many many dogs have it compared to wolves.

What does selective breeding over thousands of years have to do with the fact that Paladin's don't get thier divine magic from a deity?

[RickAllison]

Correct. I mean that I don't like it to necessarily follow the scientific method. Unless the magic wants to. Sometimes.

I take issue with magic being put in a box. Even if it's a very large box. I like it being much bigger, and yet much smaller than the mortal experience. And to R.Shackleford, I like it to be from a source that is ultimately separate from the universe. I want it to break the rules. And I want it to cost something to do so. I want the wielder of mystic flame to have burned out his own conscience in order to master his power, but I don't want it to necessarily be able to be replicated by the next person who tries. And the power of love might redeem them. Unless it can't.

To me, magic is messy. Making it follow normal physical law is an admission that everything can be explained. Everything has reasons, even if they're unknown. I believe real life is like that. I don't want to define my fantasy in the same way. I already have physical law and NPC characterizations in the game experience that follow reason and cause/effect, but not everything needs to.

I like to think of it as a hyper-cube. Just because it has perfectly explainable laws does not mean the stimuli that affect the situation will always be the same. One of the classic examples of this is spells that must be performed when the planets align just right, else the environment isn't present for the spell to go off. Wizards can arrange the three dimensions around them to perfectly replicate a spell, but there could be criteria they haven't even considered which impede or allow the flow of magic.

What if True Fimbulwinter (a more powerful variant of the spell) is only able to be unleashed when the Elemental Plane of Ice aligns with the planet Neptune over the targeted area? A spell that unleashes a great gout of flame that utterly scorches the planet only functions when the Sun and the Elemental Plane of Fire align. Magic may follow cause-and-effect, but the causes may be so difficult to read that they essentially function as Rule of Plot. Magical laws are more of a fluff to be used to build a world, but have little to any impact on the story more than what the DM is willing to supply.

[LaserFace]

A good example of why magic still remains a bizarre, mystical force is smithing. For millennia, humans have known how to create new and useful metals from ore in rocks. They didn't understand what caused these materials to melt rather than burn, why they had the properties they did that were so different to metals, or were able to establish why each metal had its properties or how it interacted with other metals. They couldn't understand why metals behave so differently when slowly cooled than quenched. They didn't know much of anything of how metallurgy really worked! Yet they still used this science to innovate and create.

Same thing with magic. Even the thaumaturgical engineers like Mordenkainen who create new ways to fashion magic have no idea how it works in order to perfectly predict anything. They are scientists without the tools to see beyond and predict magic more than based on the results of previous experiments. Today we can predict the qualities of steel by looking at how much carbon goes in, how quickly it is quenched, and whether it was tempered and for how long. But that is because we have developed methods to view the fundamental processes that result in the steel, whereas wizards and the like are forced to discover through trial-and-error and predictions based on past discoveries and errors.


Yeah, that's a really good example to my mind. You can have really intelligent people who are able to manipulate the forces around them, yet still have to deal with a lot of gaps in knowledge simply based on the levels of technology and understanding of their era. They might even develop novel approaches and improve overall methods to their craft, but I basically keep my wizardry in the same age as the rest of the world I'm trying to convey in the setting.

[Millstone85]

I like to think of magic itself as this big five-dimensional beast that spellcasters are poking sticks at. The art of magic is really about knowing which stimuli are answered with which effects, and little more beyond that.

Maybe magic is the product of some ancient and forgotten technological singularity. Maybe magic was created by the gods along with organic life. Maybe magic is a great old one that has been chained to the world. Maybe each spell is a distinct species in what is really a large ecosystem.

Another idea I favor is that some part of magic is adverse to technology. It doesn't want to be put in a box. It doesn't want to be analysed with no scientific method. Any such attempt is doomed to fail. But there is another part of magic that will happily suffuse any clockwork or electric wiring thay you might throw at it.

[pwykersotz]

I like to think of it as a hyper-cube. Just because it has perfectly explainable laws does not mean the stimuli that affect the situation will always be the same. One of the classic examples of this is spells that must be performed when the planets align just right, else the environment isn't present for the spell to go off. Wizards can arrange the three dimensions around them to perfectly replicate a spell, but there could be criteria they haven't even considered which impede or allow the flow of magic.

What if True Fimbulwinter (a more powerful variant of the spell) is only able to be unleashed when the Elemental Plane of Ice aligns with the planet Neptune over the targeted area? A spell that unleashes a great gout of flame that utterly scorches the planet only functions when the Sun and the Elemental Plane of Fire align. Magic may follow cause-and-effect, but the causes may be so difficult to read that they essentially function as Rule of Plot. Magical laws are more of a fluff to be used to build a world, but have little to any impact on the story more than what the DM is willing to supply.

So I want to lead with the fact that I think your interpretation is pretty awesome and I've used similar ones before.

That said, in my mind there is exactly one distinction between "forever unknowable by mortals but still follows laws" and "no laws". That difference is the conceit that it can actually be understood. If you're just smart enough, just wise enough, just godly enough, you can make sense of this thing. However, the way I'm approaching it is more like the Far Realm. You can't know it. You can only know parts of it that happen to remain stable long enough to be analyzed, and even those are prone to error. Not that this stops people from trying, and not that it doesn't yield very interesting and potentially useful information.

Neptune and the Plane of Ice coming in sync and unleashing True Fimbulwinter is fantastic, but perhaps next time it happens and you do the same ritual, it instead releases a great being that was to be forever frozen. Or maybe the baleful eye of the planet turns all it sees into unmelting ice forever.

I'm not against sympathetic associations. I don't suggest magic be completely random, I didn't mention that Neptune turns everything to solid lightning for that very reason. But I think that the reason many of these ancient empires whose ruins litter the world fell is because of this very conceit. They built their empires upon magical understanding, and when those cornerstones turned against them they had no recourse. Magic will not be tamed or shackled. It's one rule is that it will eventually change.

As a final note, I do think that this interpretation of magic still allows an individual to master the power within them or some external phenomenon. Change need not happen within a mortal lifetime, and personal power is probably about as stable as the individual wielding it.

Edit: And yes, I'm very much aware that all the examples I mention are possible with your interpretation too. I just currently happen to like the paradigm I'm advocating, probably because I see a LOT of magic=science in modern media.

[Madbox]

I like to think of magic itself as this big five-dimensional beast that spellcasters are poking sticks at. The art of magic is really about knowing which stimuli are answered with which effects, and little more beyond that.

Maybe magic is the product of some ancient and forgotten technological singularity. Maybe magic was created by the gods along with organic life. Maybe magic is a great old one that has been chained to the world. Maybe each spell is a distinct species in what is really a large ecosystem.


It certainly would explain why every wizard's spells seem to develop along similar lines, like how mage hand is always limited to 10lbs of weight and a range of 30ft. If the wizard was really the one responsible, why can't they do some sort of exercise or practice to lift more at longer distances?

[Azreal]

It certainly would explain why every wizard's spells seem to develop along similar lines, like how mage hand is always limited to 10lbs of weight and a range of 30ft. If the wizard was really the one responsible, why can't they do some sort of exercise or practice to lift more at longer distances?

I submit Telekinesis, it also makes sense it would require much more energy (spell level) to lift more and at longer distances.

[RSP]

Another oddity to the "physics" of magic and why there would always be Wizards even when powerful gods prove their existence by providing their faithful with great powers: arcane magic can not just dispel but can also counter divine magic.

In terms of thinking about the science of arcane magic, this pretty significant, IMO. The fact that Joe Wizard is smart enough and studied enough to, or at least try to, stop the flow of divine energy from a God through their vessel is pretty outstanding.

Note that going by their base spell lists, clerics do not have the same ability, that is, the vessels of the power of the gods cannot disrupt the flow of energy from someone practicing arcane magic.

I just find this very interesting.

[BurgerBeast]

It's probably worth highlighting the difference between science and technology.

Magic, as in the casting of magical spells, is using technology. Magical spells are technology. The theory used to understand and manipulate magic, and the laws that govern magic, are science.

Remember science is just a method for understanding the natural world. If magic is a part of the natural world, then science studies it. It the real life, the natural world and all of the forces that operate in it are, apparently, subject to unchanging universal laws. This is just what we have found and science tries to explain it.

If magic in your campaign world is consistent and universal (and indeed most of the D&D spell system operates on this assumption , in my opinion), then the scientific of understanding will be much like the real-life branches of science. If, however, you take the magic as changing-beast view, then science would uncover that the beast (i.e. the laws of magic) change, and scientific models would try to determine if there was any pattern to the changes. It is possible that the mode of study could be distinctly non-scientific.

In either case, however, it now seems to me that the defining characteristic of magic is that is a young and poorly understood field. The technological applications are still dangerous and not necessarily fully understood. So in the same way that most people in our society can operate devices without being able to create devices, most wizards probably can only "operate" spells but not create new spells. And wild mages, for example, even have trouble operating spells.

[pwykersotz]

I like to think of magic itself as this big five-dimensional beast that spellcasters are poking sticks at. The art of magic is really about knowing which stimuli are answered with which effects, and little more beyond that.

I like this as well.


It's probably worth highlighting the difference between science and technology.

Magic, as in the casting of magical spells, is using technology. Magical spells are technology. The theory used to understand and manipulate magic, and the laws that govern magic, are science.

Remember science is just a method for understanding the natural world. If magic is a part of the natural world, then science studies it. It the real life, the natural world and all of the forces that operate in it are, apparently, subject to unchanging universal laws. This is just what we have found and science tries to explain it.

If magic in your campaign world is consistent and universal (and indeed most of the D&D spell system operates on this assumption , in my opinion), then the scientific of understanding will be much like the real-life branches of science. If, however, you take the magic as changing-beast view, then science would uncover that the beast (i.e. the laws of magic) change, and scientific models would try to determine if there was any pattern to the changes. It is possible that the mode of study could be distinctly non-scientific.

In either case, however, it now seems to me that the defining characteristic of magic is that is a young and poorly understood field. The technological applications are still dangerous and not necessarily fully understood. So in the same way that most people in our society can operate devices without being able to create devices, most wizards probably can only "operate" spells but not create new spells. And wild mages, for example, even have trouble operating spells.

On the contrary to the bolded, magic is an ancient and well researched field. It's just that when you're studying something ever changing and beyond universal law, that research can only take you so far. And the distinction is whether magic is actually part of the natural world or not.

To me, magic is the most fascinating when it breaks the normal laws. When it's not just the latest field of science that's yet to be understood. Otherwise, as you and others have stated, it's basically poorly understood technology. Which has (not insurmountable) problems with regards to standard settings of ancient magic and fallen empires.

[smcmike]

Magic as science also doesn't fit with the very frequent theme in fiction of magic fading from the world, or returning to it, such as in LoTR or GoT, respectively.

Of course, being otherworldly also isn't quite mutually exclusive with being scientific.

[RickAllison]

Magic as science also doesn't fit with the very frequent theme in fiction of magic fading from the world, or returning to it, such as in LoTR or GoT, respectively.

Of course, being otherworldly also isn't quite mutually exclusive with being scientific.

Oh I think there could be a very scientific reason why magic fades and augments with time. Even from a chemistry perspective, the encroachment of Melkor and Sauron could well have created an environment where the magic became unstable. Because they broke the balance created by Eru, the magic deteriorates and fades from the world, only remaining intact in those areas that were kept stable by the Valar and Maiar.

For GoT (which I know very little about, TBH) it could be that the magic has just been in a stable, but dormant form, where it was locked into the particular form. The right circumstances could be the catalyst for change that transforms the magic back into a usable form.

Energy gets locked away for millions of years on Earth only to await the proper catalyst (preparing and then burning fossil fuels) to unleash the energy back into the world. Why should magical energy be unable to do the same when it is so much more flexible?

[IShouldntBehere]

I think that both interpretations are fine, but I prefer magic to be not-science. I like it to be wild and mysterious and ever-changing. The way I see it, replicable spells exist at the grace of Mystra, who has tamed a small subsection of magic for human use. But magic as a whole is beyond mortal law.

I would go a bit further and say replicable spells are not replicable, on any menaingful scale. This is why the ancient & lost magics are ancient and lost. Pick up a spellbook from 10,000 years ago follow the formula to a T and if you're lucky nothing will happen, unlucky and something very much not the spell's author's intention happens.

On the minuscule scale of a human life or even the life of a kingdom, magic seems to behave somewhat consistently. Say a few words in the right order, rearrange the right bits of Aether and things happen the way you want them to. Teach your student and it does much the same for him. The rules for magic are arbitrary ever-changing however that arbitrary change happens on scales such that intervals between change are generally beyond mortal scope.

This is part of what in my mind makes wild magic so "wild". It hooks in at lower-level of magic where it sometimes comes into touch with much smaller faster changes, fluctuations that are short lived rapid eddies in the constantly but slowly-churning sea of magic.

If you zoomed out far enough and took a broad view at every mortal spell caster ever from the first one born when humanity emerged from their creators to the very last one before the stars died, from that high perch they would seem like they were all hitting wild magic surge. A wild magic surge with an infinitely long and varied effects list, with no consistency between, or relationship to one another.

It is perhaps by the grace of some magic god (such as Mystra in her setting), that these pockets of stability exist for so long and are so readily available on mortal scales.

[smcmike]

Oh I think there could be a very scientific reason why magic fades and augments with time. Even from a chemistry perspective, the encroachment of Melkor and Sauron could well have created an environment where the magic became unstable. Because they broke the balance created by Eru, the magic deteriorates and fades from the world, only remaining intact in those areas that were kept stable by the Valar and Maiar.

For GoT (which I know very little about, TBH) it could be that the magic has just been in a stable, but dormant form, where it was locked into the particular form. The right circumstances could be the catalyst for change that transforms the magic back into a usable form.

Energy gets locked away for millions of years on Earth only to await the proper catalyst (preparing and then burning fossil fuels) to unleash the energy back into the world. Why should magical energy be unable to do the same when it is so much more flexible?

You're right, but I think this gets at two different ways of taking the question.

Is magic something that is essentially of the world, or is it some sort of intrusion?

Is magic something which can be understood through experimentation and study, like a science, or is it in some way unknowable?

[pwykersotz]

I would go a bit further and say replicable spells are not replicable, on any menaingful scale. This is why the ancient & lost magics are ancient and lost. Pick up a spellbook from 10,000 years ago follow the formula to a T and if you're lucky nothing will happen, unlucky and something very much not the spell's author's intention happens.

On the minuscule scale of a human life or even the life of a kingdom, magic seems to behave somewhat consistently. Say a few words in the right order, rearrange the right bits of Aether and things happen the way you want them to. Teach your student and it does much the same for him. The rules for magic are arbitrary ever-changing however that arbitrary change happens on scales such that intervals between change are generally beyond mortal scope.

This is part of what in my mind makes wild magic so "wild". It hooks in at lower-level of magic where it sometimes comes into touch with much smaller faster changes, fluctuations that are short lived rapid eddies in the constantly but slowly-churning sea of magic.

If you zoomed out far enough and took a broad view at every mortal spell caster ever from the first one born when humanity emerged from their creators to the very last one before the stars died, from that high perch they would seem like they were all hitting wild magic surge. A wild magic surge with an infinitely long and varied effects list, with no consistency between, or relationship to one another.

It is perhaps by the grace of some magic god (such as Mystra in her setting), that these pockets of stability exist for so long and are so readily available on mortal scales.

Well said. I like your analogy.

[RickAllison]

You're right, but I think this gets at two different ways of taking the question.

Is magic something that is essentially of the world, or is it some sort of intrusion?

Is magic something which can be understood through experimentation and study, like a science, or is it in some way unknowable?

Depends on the world! This is probably one of those things that every DM has to decide for him or herself.

By the way, my arguments are not that all magic systems have to be scientific (that's up to the DM), my argument is solely that any system of magic can be explained, even Wild Magic. Wild Magic is likely a chaotic system where the normal processes that dictate magical conditions develop and collapse at a much more rapid pace. The same guidelines that govern magic should apply were it not for the constant restructuring of the field. Wild Magic sorcerers are the proof of this, as they can learn how to manipulate that field more accurately whereas a truly unknowable system would not permit experience to overcome that barrier.

[pwykersotz]

By the way, my arguments are not that all magic systems have to be scientific (that's up to the DM), my argument is solely that any system of magic can be explained, even Wild Magic.

Well, I can't think of any way to put a usable magic system into a game that can't even be explained in retrospect. Does your argument extend to being predictable?

Basically, the difference between "Fimbulwinter will come, Neptune is high in the sky." versus "Oh, Neptune was high in the sky, that's probably why we had Fimbulwinter."

[RickAllison]

Well, I can't think of any way to put a usable magic system into a game that can't even be explained in retrospect. Does your argument extend to being predictable?

Basically, the difference between "Fimbulwinter will come, Neptune is high in the sky." versus "Oh, Neptune was high in the sky, that's probably why we had Fimbulwinter."

The latter is probably why the former can be told!

I'm imagining something like the Orrery of Elder Scrolls, or that desert library from Avatar: the Last Airbender. Using what a caster knows about the last time(s) Fimbulwinter was cast, they basically try to retrace the steps to figure out the common denominator.

That is basically how I see 10th and higher level spells getting cast (I know they don't exist, but it is the closest mechanical approximation). An individual can't actually focus magic of those levels, not even gods of magic like Mystara who can chuck around 9th level spells like candy. To cast anything that powerful, the Mage has to piggyback off these magical convergences.

Thus we get tropes like Hades waiting till the planets align to harness that power to free the Titans. Most knowledge of this kind will not be something any hedge Mage picks up, but elite knowledge that only casters either proven worthy or powerful enough to take it can learn. While it is knowable and (somewhat) predictable, it is far above what most NPCs will ever learn. The kicker comes when some element is unaccounted for. A comet that passes through when it hasn't happened before, supercharging Fimbulwinter to put the planet under an ice age. The moon passing overhead and blocking out the sun so the ultimate fire magic is blocked. The bane of relying on cosmic phenomena is that multiple trials can take millennia to troubleshoot...

[pwykersotz]

The latter is probably why the former can be told!

I'm imagining something like the Orrery of Elder Scrolls, or that desert library from Avatar: the Last Airbender. Using what a caster knows about the last time(s) Fimbulwinter was cast, they basically try to retrace the steps to figure out the common denominator.

That is basically how I see 10th and higher level spells getting cast (I know they don't exist, but it is the closest mechanical approximation). An individual can't actually focus magic of those levels, not even gods of magic like Mystara who can chuck around 9th level spells like candy. To cast anything that powerful, the Mage has to piggyback off these magical convergences.

Thus we get tropes like Hades waiting till the planets align to harness that power to free the Titans. Most knowledge of this kind will not be something any hedge Mage picks up, but elite knowledge that only casters either proven worthy or powerful enough to take it can learn. While it is knowable and (somewhat) predictable, it is far above what most NPCs will ever learn. The kicker comes when some element is unaccounted for. A comet that passes through when it hasn't happened before, supercharging Fimbulwinter to put the planet under an ice age. The moon passing overhead and blocking out the sun so the ultimate fire magic is blocked. The bane of relying on cosmic phenomena is that multiple trials can take millennia to troubleshoot...

That's a pretty great way to look at it too.

As another way of explaining things, I've once used a system where magic didn't like to be used. If it was used too much, it would change so that it couldn't be used that way anymore. It was a fun way to explain why Wizards hoard their spells and don't cast more than they need to. If they do it too much, they might wake up one day and find that it just doesn't work anymore.

[RickAllison]

That's a pretty great way to look at it too.

As another way of explaining things, I've once used a system where magic didn't like to be used. If it was used too much, it would change so that it couldn't be used that way anymore. It was a fun way to explain why Wizards hoard their spells and don't cast more than they need to. If they do it too much, they might wake up one day and find that it just doesn't work anymore.

I kinda like that. The Weave-or-its-appropriate-mirror can be elastically deformed and prodded into shape by a wizard to accomplish an effect, but there is some plastic deformation. When that deformation becomes too much, it either loses its elasticity (like a rubber band that has been pulled too much) or it actually snaps.

So is it the wizards connection to the magic that doesn't work or just that specific spell? If it is the wizard, I would say it is more like a snap effect cutting him off. If its the spell, I would say the rubber band-model is more appropriate.

[Segev]

Magic as science also doesn't fit with the very frequent theme in fiction of magic fading from the world, or returning to it, such as in LoTR or GoT, respectively.

Of course, being otherworldly also isn't quite mutually exclusive with being scientific.

Actually, that's not true. Let's say that you live in a valley where there is a perpetual wind. Your great city of windmills has mechanical power to achieve wonders that are nearly steampunk-esq in scale with otherwise bronze-era and "wood jungle" technology, using wind power to lift weights and pump water, using hydro-power to fuel water wheels and push goods around, providing streams to "plug in" your water-wheel-powered mechanical devices into the pipes in your walls...

And then...the wind slows, one day. It's not...the end of the world, but the hydro reservoir drains more than its filled. It comes back the next day, but then it happens again. And then it happens more often.

And for an hour one night, it just dies. No wind at all.

When it returns, it's less strong than usual.

And it keeps getting weaker. Devices stop being reliable. Your largest windmills no longer turn.


Everything you had ran on science! You understood the mechanics of your devices. You just were drawing on a power source that you neither create nor use up, but which, if it goes away...



Replace "wind" with a magical "radiation" that your mages can tap using their knowledge of how to harness it ("hold up a pinwheel and power their mechanical device" / "build windmills"). They use science to design their tools, to learn their methods (spells). Magic can still fade if this radiation starts fading.



Personally, though, I like differentiating magic from technology by using a more animist system: many of the natural forces of the world are mediated or even effected by spiritual entities operating according to their natures, but which can be cajoled, convinced, or tricked into doing differently. Mages contract with them, convince them, or trick them into doing their bidding. Clerics command them by the power of greater beings (gods) who have authority over them. Etc.

Magic is thus not science, but either politics or rules lawyering. (Is it any wonder wizards are so powerful? :smalltongue:)

[arrowed]

Thus we get tropes like Hades waiting till the planets align to harness that power to free the Titans..

I like the Hercules reference. :smallsmile: Looking through 5e's PHB, there is at least one 'law' that seems consistent: conservation of mass. Creation and illusory reality both borrow 'shadow' to create things temporarily, and even true polymorph cannot actually create matter from nothing, it makes one object or creature into another, and even if the effect is made permanent it can be undone by dispelling. There are two anomalies... Create/Destroy Water and Create Food and Water. However these seem to be exclusively divine spells, so there is room for a mitigating factor.

Another rule might be applicable: conservation of magical energy. Simulacri (simulacrums?), Glyphs of Warding and similar spells can store magical energy indefinitely, but not create it or access an inexhaustible supply the same way a living (or undead) wizard/sorcerer/other caster can (although a simulacrum does have some magic stored in it.)

Another thing that intrigues me: costly components consumed in the casting, normally gem or metal dust or just gemstones. Are they a fuel, or a bribe? They often seem associated with the more abusable spells: GoW, Simulacrum, the Raise Dead subgroup... OK, yeah, the designers probably did that on purpose, but could there be an in-game explanation for this? Do the gods impose the rule to prevent revolving-door-afterlife-syndrome? Or do these spells all require a very pure, i.e. elemental, source of matter to provide energy to the spell?

[pwykersotz]

So is it the wizards connection to the magic that doesn't work or just that specific spell? If it is the wizard, I would say it is more like a snap effect cutting him off. If its the spell, I would say the rubber band-model is more appropriate.

It would be that specific spell, and it would apply to all other casters too. I never was afforded the opportunity to come up with how expansive it was though. Is gone across the planes? Just the prime? Just the continent or town? Never decided.

[BurgerBeast]

There have been some outstanding ideas expressed in this thread. Thanks to all of the contributors of the creative ideas about magical systems.


On the contrary to the bolded, magic is an ancient and well researched field. It's just that when you're studying something ever changing and beyond universal law, that research can only take you so far. And the distinction is whether magic is actually part of the natural world or not.

Of course you're right, I chose a terrible word. Magic is not young in terms of it's history. It's young in terms of the amount of progress that has been made. There is no grand unification theory talk cropping up yet, and if there ever was, it is long lost. In the same way a post-apocalyptic world would involve people living at a low level of technology and trying to re-establish the big level of technology, most D&D settings have at some point witnessed a magic-apocalypse and the most intriguing secrets are lost. The contemporary wizards work to try to restore its former glory.

Beyond this, I never meant to say that magic is simply science. I meant to draw an analogy between some magical concepts and the way we conceptualize technology. For example, a wizard who learns and casts spells, no matter how much we load the character with flavour to the contrary, is most akin to a skilled technician. Being a wizard in no may implies that you create new spells. You can spend your whole career memorizing and perfecting casting techniques without ever understanding the deeper theory.


Is magic something which can be understood through experimentation and study, like a science, or is it in some way unknowable?

I don't necessarily like it to be, but in the context of D&D, the predictability of Fireball, for example, is too consistent to be ignored. Any system that can be so accurately predicted and exploited to human advantage simply has to has knowable elements. So even if there are ultimate truths that are elusive, there are aspects that are knowable, and this can form the basis for centuries (or millennia) of study.

[smcmike]

... in the context of D&D, the predictability of Fireball, for example, is too consistent to be ignored. Any system that can be so accurately predicted and exploited to human advantage simply has to has knowable elements. So even if there are ultimate truths that are elusive, there are aspects that are knowable, and this can form the basis for centuries (or millennia) of study.

Yeah. One of my aesthetic problems with the game is this disconnect between my idea of mysterious, unknowable magic and the nice meat rulebook full of spells, some of which you will run into over and over.

Not that I see another way to do it.

[mgshamster]

One way to make magic both a part of physics and ever-changing is to treat it like a gravitational field (think on a planetary scale) in a three body system.

Three body systems are nearly impossible to accurately predict their path, but it is possible to measure the effect of gravity at a specific point relative to the three bodies. As those bodies rotate around each other, they exert greater or lesser gravitational force on a specific location (aka our world).

If all three are nearby the specific location, the gravitational force felt on that location is near a high point - at that time, 10th level spells are possible and even common.

As one of those bodies moves away, you start to lose magical power, so 10th level spells become extremely rare. Perhaps only 9th level spells are possible.

As the second one moves away, the gravitational field (or in our case, magic) becomes relatively weaker, and we can only cast 5th level spells. Or maybe we can still cast up to 9th, but it's so rare that only one person can tap into the magical field.

As all three move away, we start to lose magic altogether, where even cantrips become rare.

But over time, all three bodies are unpredictable in their path to us (yet theoretically predictable), so we have fluctuating and seemingly random times where magic can disappear for hundreds or thousands of years, the return with full on 10th or even 11th level spells being common, then drop down to only cantrips, and back up to 5th level spells, to the current spell system in 5e.

We can say these bodies exist in the ethereal plane, so ony their effect on magical fields affects us, and their gravitational fields do not.

We can also say that at some time in the past, one of these bodies even "collided" with our world, transfering its magical energies right into the planet and the creatures on it. This created new races with magic infused right into their genetics - and that's why we have elves and gnomes and dragons and other magical creatures with innate Spellcasting ability. It could have also created magical locations, and that's why this landscape over here is an anti-magic zone, the underdark is infested with faerzress, and why we now have portals to the planes (which allows creatures without command of magic to magical transport to new locations).

[Joe the Rat]

I tend to look at magic a lot like electromagnetism... sort of orthogonal to it. It's a constant part of the foundation of reality, but you don't notice it (or don't think you notice it) on a regular basis. Light, solid objects, and not being blasted away by the cinders from the atomic fires of a thousand suns is pretty much it.

But then you get lodestones, and copper, and controlled currents, and right hand rule, and iPhones, and holy crap you can do a lot with this thing. It being part of the world is what allows your manipulation of the force (powering up an electromagnet) to affect other things (attracts ferromagnetic substances). You even see the occasional natural user, for offense (electric eel), movement (geckos), or sensing (platypi). A Dragon is a cross between an electric eel and a platypus. Spells are the formulas, commands, and nth dimensional constructs that shape and use that power. A nonphysical device and command program that does the intricate heavy lifting, so you just need to give it the necessary input to send a 25 word IM, or fire your psychothaumic railgun at whomever is pissing you off at the moment.

Describing spells slots in terms of electron orbitals is just a happy coincidence.


I would go a bit further and say replicable spells are not replicable, on any menaingful scale. This is why the ancient & lost magics are ancient and lost. Pick up a spellbook from 10,000 years ago follow the formula to a T and if you're lucky nothing will happen, unlucky and something very much not the spell's author's intention happens.

On the minuscule scale of a human life or even the life of a kingdom, magic seems to behave somewhat consistently. Say a few words in the right order, rearrange the right bits of Aether and things happen the way you want them to. Teach your student and it does much the same for him. The rules for magic are arbitrary ever-changing however that arbitrary change happens on scales such that intervals between change are generally beyond mortal scope.

This is part of what in my mind makes wild magic so "wild". It hooks in at lower-level of magic where it sometimes comes into touch with much smaller faster changes, fluctuations that are short lived rapid eddies in the constantly but slowly-churning sea of magic.

If you zoomed out far enough and took a broad view at every mortal spell caster ever from the first one born when humanity emerged from their creators to the very last one before the stars died, from that high perch they would seem like they were all hitting wild magic surge. A wild magic surge with an infinitely long and varied effects list, with no consistency between, or relationship to one another.

It is perhaps by the grace of some magic god (such as Mystra in her setting), that these pockets of stability exist for so long and are so readily available on mortal scales.Might also explain why wizards have to do so much research - it's not finding the old formula, it's making the adjustments so this spell from centuries ago / cast by elves / from another world will work here and now for you.

If you want to play crazy on a faster scale, Dungeon Crawl Classics has a lovely system of inconsistent and screw-you-over-if-you-push-too-hard-or-are-just-unlucky spellcasting. Loooots of tables, though.

[BurgerBeast]

I have been playing with the idea of making a world that just isn't scientific, and although this isn't really possible, I think I have come up with some ideas that can at least force the players to acknowledge some things that will make them try to think about the world in a different way. Mostly it involves taking old wives tales and superstitions and things like astrology real in the game world.

Some ideas:

(1) The world is flat. (Add to this however you like)
(2) There is a "Mount Olympus." It's a big mountain, it's basically big enough to be seen from anywhere. If you were to climb up there, you'd find the gods.
(3) Forests really are full of fluffy animals in the day and evil monsters at night. Monsters literally spawn, Minecraft style, at night, and disappear in the day.
(4) The Gods actually do intervene in trial by combat. If you are blessed by a priest before a trial by combat, the correct champion is actually favoured (mechanically) to win.
(5) Food and items that we see as mundane are actually magical. Chicken soup actually improves saving throws to recover form a cold.
...
I had a few others but can't think of them.

The basic idea is that conventional old-wives' tale wisdom is true. Eating carrots will improve you eyesight, plagues can be caused by witches or gods. Etc. Spirits can go to a place like "Hell" when they die and anyone can walk there if they know the way.

The idea is to imagine a superstition, and then make it a smart way to think in the world by making the world more dangerous if you don't pay attention to it (or safer if you do).

[Regitnui]

I have been playing with the idea of making a world that just isn't scientific, and although this isn't really possible, I think I have come up with some ideas that can at least force the players to acknowledge some things that will make them try to think about the world in a different way. Mostly it involves taking old wives tales and superstitions and things like astrology real in the game world.

Some ideas:

(1) The world is flat. (Add to this however you like)
(2) There is a "Mount Olympus." It's a big mountain, it's basically big enough to be seen from anywhere. If you were to climb up there, you'd find the gods.
(3) Forests really are full of fluffy animals in the day and evil monsters at night. Monsters literally spawn, Minecraft style, at night, and disappear in the day.
(4) The Gods actually do intervene in trial by combat. If you are blessed by a priest before a trial by combat, the correct champion is actually favoured (mechanically) to win.
(5) Food and items that we see as mundane are actually magical. Chicken soup actually improves saving throws to recover form a cold.
...
I had a few others but can't think of them.

The basic idea is that conventional old-wives' tale wisdom is true. Eating carrots will improve you eyesight, plagues can be caused by witches or gods. Etc. Spirits can go to a place like "Hell" when they die and anyone can walk there if they know the way.

The idea is to imagine a superstition, and then make it a smart way to think in the world by making the world more dangerous if you don't pay attention to it (or safer if you do).

Sounds like Discworld, where there literally is a mountain holding up the sky that gods live in top of. It eventually built it's own pseudo-physics running on narrativium and thaums.

[mgshamster]

I have been playing with the idea of making a world that just isn't scientific, and although this isn't really possible, I think I have come up with some ideas that can at least force the players to acknowledge some things that will make them try to think about the world in a different way. Mostly it involves taking old wives tales and superstitions and things like astrology real in the game world.

Some ideas:

(1) The world is flat. (Add to this however you like)
(2) There is a "Mount Olympus." It's a big mountain, it's basically big enough to be seen from anywhere. If you were to climb up there, you'd find the gods.
(3) Forests really are full of fluffy animals in the day and evil monsters at night. Monsters literally spawn, Minecraft style, at night, and disappear in the day.
(4) The Gods actually do intervene in trial by combat. If you are blessed by a priest before a trial by combat, the correct champion is actually favoured (mechanically) to win.
(5) Food and items that we see as mundane are actually magical. Chicken soup actually improves saving throws to recover form a cold.
...
I had a few others but can't think of them.

The basic idea is that conventional old-wives' tale wisdom is true. Eating carrots will improve you eyesight, plagues can be caused by witches or gods. Etc. Spirits can go to a place like "Hell" when they die and anyone can walk there if they know the way.

The idea is to imagine a superstition, and then make it a smart way to think in the world by making the world more dangerous if you don't pay attention to it (or safer if you do).

For about half a year now I've been meaning to write up a disease system for 5e where the Germ theory of disease is false. Instead, the four humors theory was right. And so was the idea that disease is caused by spirits, etc.. Basically the majority of pseudoscience was right so long as it doesn't rely on chemistry or biology (which, interestingly, also removes Hahnemann's theory of homeopathy; so instead that would be used to explain potions).

I keep talking about it with my friends, but I haven't had the chance to sit down and write it.

[Segev]

Yeah. One of my aesthetic problems with the game is this disconnect between my idea of mysterious, unknowable magic and the nice meat rulebook full of spells, some of which you will run into over and over.

Not that I see another way to do it.

I'm...not actually sure there's any magic in any story that's truly unknowable. Mysterious or unknown or poorly understood, sure. Related to subjective qualities or controlled by instinct or emotion rather than rigorous mathematical certainties (at least on the level where practitioners use it), sure. But it's always knowable.

[pwykersotz]

One of the other interpretations I like to express regarding magic is where Magic = Will, pure and simple. Sadly, D&D expresses this poorly. Basically, magic is a being using their will in place of normal physical law. The demigod wants gravity to flow upwards? Done. The ground is made of solid fire? Done. Luke desperately wants that lightsaber to fly to his hand? Done. Normal physical law is always there though, ready to reassert itself if that will ever falters.

Extrapolate outward, and you get the effect that all magic, no matter how insignificant or how cosmic, is the will of some great being. Slay the being, stop that particular magic. And if you want to counter their power, you will probably draw both their attention and ire.

One way it could be fluffed for D&D is that mortals have little or no ability to exert their will over reality on their own, but since Mystra wants us to have magic, she exerts her will over reality and creates the weave. That's why spells are the same across casters, they have used the requisite components to tap into a section of her will, and she makes it so. Similar to the 5th dimensional beast mentioned earlier.

Hmm...now that I think about it, maybe it's not quite as incompatible as I previously thought...

[Segev]

Psionics, in 3.5, at least, is pretty explicitly "your will is so strong you bend physics," at least at its basic explanation.

[pwykersotz]

Psionics, in 3.5, at least, is pretty explicitly "your will is so strong you bend physics," at least at its basic explanation.

True. I found the flavor a bit unfortunate though. Even though Jean Gray is my favorite X-man, I always cared more for the mystical feel of magic as opposed to the cold application of psionics.

But yes, similar shtick, different wrapper. :smallsmile: