Brand new DM and players - unusual party

[Oramac]

So I'm getting ready to run a game for 4-5 brand spanking new players, and they've chosen classes that are what would be called a sub-optimal party for sure.

Dragonborn Wizard
Dwarf Life Cleric
Elf Ranger
Human Ranger
Human Fighter (ranged, medium armor)

So the healer is also the tank. Really I have two questions:

1) Would it be wise to start them at 2nd or 3rd level? My thought here is to get them a bit more HP just in case the dice don't like them (though I will be fudging rolls if needed).

2) How would you handle this? The game is most likely going to be a very basic one-shot dungeon. I'm not going to railroad them if I can help it, but knowing them, I'll probably need to anyway.

[Sir cryosin]

This party can be fun Thay are all range. The best thing form them to do is. Stay spread out and kit. If they say far enough a way they can keep the hard hitting guy from getting them. It's also a nice stealth group.

[Gastronomie]

Level 1 is too easy to die. I say Level 3 is the ideal starting point.

[hymer]

1) Would it be wise to start them at 2nd or 3rd level? My thought here is to get them a bit more HP just in case the dice don't like them (though I will be fudging rolls if needed).

2) How would you handle this? The game is most likely going to be a very basic one-shot dungeon. I'm not going to railroad them if I can help it, but knowing them, I'll probably need to anyway.

1: I'd think about it. I'm not a fan of 5e at level 1, but on the other hand, it's more stuff to process. Some new players can easily handle new stuff, some struggle to grasp action vs. bonus action. For the rangers it's spells or not, no minor change.
An alternative solution is to give them some sort of bouncy cushion. You could either load them up with ten extra hp a piece and an extra hit die for healing (or some such), or give them a special ability that lets them heal to half hp instead of making death saves twice in their career. Again, could depend on how they'll handle it.

2: I'd be helpful outlining options when they seem in doubt of what they can do. I'd give them plenty of advice based on what the characters would know that the players wouldn't. I'd try to let them feel that their PCs are pretty awesome people, able to do lots of cool stuff. And I'd probably (depending on the group) try to make it funny, actual haha funny.

[RPG_NPC]

I'd start them at 1st level as they're new players: not a overwhelming array of choices to consider in combat and it will give the players chance to grow into their PCs; as well as seeing their PCs grow.

As for the party's optimisation, It's the DMs job to balance the challenges they face. Not so tough that they get wiped out yet hard enough so that they get a sense of danger and a feeling of accomplishment when they are victorious!

[Gastronomie]

I'd start them at 1st level as they're new players: not a overwhelming array of choices to consider in combat and it will give the players chance to grow into their PCs; as well as seeing their PCs grow.

As for the party's optimisation, It's the DMs job to balance the challenges they face. Not so tough that they get wiped out yet hard enough so that they get a sense of danger and a feeling of accomplishment when they are victorious!Balancing challenges is harder than it seems, especially when natural 20s pop up now and then. Those things can kill level 1 characters unexpectedly. I think starting Level 2 or higher is safer.

As for whether it should be 2 or 3, I proposed 3 because I like having many options, but some people might be better with level 2. Dunno.

[RPG_NPC]

A DM might knock out one or two PCs with unusually high rolls but if the party should be able to avoid fatalities if they help their injured. The DM can also decide to take prisoners if things are going very badly; or just have the monsters act really stupidly.

Then again, having your PC die is a right of passage every player should go through, sooner or later. :)

[indrabar]

Level 1 is too easy to die.

Nope, our party of experienced players have experienced some very unlucky rolls by me (the DM) and have almost died several times each, barely managing to be stabilized by their saving throws. Poor rogue failed her throws and actually did die. A lucky DM and unlucky players means characters are quite quite capable of dying.

[Specter]

You know what's unusual?

The Wild Magic Sorcerer in my campaign who rolls all his spells known.

You should be fine, relax. If they use their abilities well, they'll be professional murderers.

[Gastronomie]

Nope, our party of experienced players have experienced some very unlucky rolls by me (the DM) and have almost died several times each, barely managing to be stabilized by their saving throws. Poor rogue failed her throws and actually did die. A lucky DM and unlucky players means characters are quite quite capable of dying.Uhhhhh... sorry, isn't that exactly what I wanted to say (characters die too easily at very low levels)? Or are you talking about, like, when you played with high-level characters or something? In which case I'd appreciate if you mention that more clearly...
A DM might knock out one or two PCs with unusually high rolls but if the party should be able to avoid fatalities if they help their injured. The DM can also decide to take prisoners if things are going very badly; or just have the monsters act really stupidly.

Then again, having your PC die is a right of passage every player should go through, sooner or later. :)Well, I personally feel it's better to have the first session end in a sucess with no fatalities. The only healer in this party is the cleric, so if he's the guy who gets the unlucky crit, it might end in a TPK. I do agree with how the "prisoner" button is a pretty useful option though.

[RPG_NPC]

Certainly I would aim low on the first session, challenge wise: have them fight a particular vicious bunny or something.

[Calen]

Certainly I would aim low on the first session, challenge wise: have them fight a particular vicious bunny or something.

Will you give them a Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch to blow up the bunny?

[smcmike]

I'd start them at level 1, but give them a couple of really fast, easy, and safe encounters to get their feet wet and level them to 2.

[indrabar]

....In which case I'd appreciate if you mention that more clearly... .

Sorry I wasn't clear :( We recently started a new campaign at level one, the players had some very bad rolls and I had some very good ones.

[Sir cryosin]

Oozes, gelatinous cubes or, mimics those are monsters I would throw at this party. Because they are slow easy to hit and can really scar the Adventurer out of them.

[RPG_NPC]

Don't forget about non combat challenges too, not everything has do be a fight to the death. Social encounters, moral choices or physical obstacles can be a great way for a group to work together.

[Oramac]

Thanks everyone! I appreciate the advice. I may just bump up their HP a bit instead of starting at a higher level. I know for sure that one or two of the players will have trouble with the extra features.


Will you give them a Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch to blow up the bunny?

I may just give them one of these! haha. I do know I plan to give everyone Vicious Mockery just for the shenanigans that spell can cause.

[ClintACK]

With new players and a new DM -- be generous on "rebuilding". If someone realizes two sessions in that they really, really wish they'd gone Hunter instead of Beast Master... or sword-and-board instead of two-weapon-fighting or whatever... be willing to hand-wave away the change.


Honestly, though, that party looks pretty good. Stealth + range + healing could be really strong, depending on the challenges they're facing. (So, start them out with challenges they're well designed to face. :) )

[BurgerBeast]

That party is fine, in my opinion.

Just make sure you understand how to calculate encounter difficulty, and don't give anything harder than medium until they reach level 2 or 3. You can introduce challenges that are not combat and award appropriate XP, and you can have a goal with XP.

I like to start with a simple mystery adventure to start most campaigns, because I can then have PCs move about the setting and I can sneak in exposition along the way. Remember, it only takes 6 medium encounters to level up. If you award 250 XP (50 XP per character) for the goal at the conclusion of the adventure, you only need 5 encounters. I'd go with 3 combat and 2 non-combat (this is a little more combat heavy than what I consider ideal, but it is a good thing because it makes the players use and learn their abilities).

Remember, a medium difficulty encounter could be 3 goblins, or 3 giant lizards, or 3 wolves, or 3 acolytes. Just adding one more enemy would make each of these encounters hard.

[Edit: you can also make things easier by splitting the combat encounters up over multiple days. That way the party has full health in every fight. But you have two fighters with second wind, the everyone can spend hit dice to self heal during a short rest, etc. I think you'll find the opposite problem, and that the game will seem too easy (but as others have mentioned, don't adjust! The game is too swingy to risk it)]

[Laserlight]

Thanks everyone! I appreciate the advice. I may just bump up their HP a bit instead of starting at a higher level.

Because they're new, I would start them at L1. They'll probably level at the end of the session.

But I'd also implement The Angry DM's "Fighting Spirit" mod (http://theangrygm.com/fighting-spirit/). (He starts with quite a bit of text on the reasoning behind his proposed change; if you want to skip that, scroll to "Hit Points Become Fighting Spirit"). I did that with my campaign; my players are happy because they have an effective reminder "Now It's Time For You To Retreat", and I'm happy because I can hit them harder without worrying about accidentally killing them.

If the Fighting Spirit mod is too much for you, just give everyone an extra 10hp.

[Oramac]

But I'd also implement The Angry DM's "Fighting Spirit" mod (http://theangrygm.com/fighting-spirit/). (He starts with quite a bit of text on the reasoning behind his proposed change; if you want to skip that, scroll to "Hit Points Become Fighting Spirit"). I did that with my campaign; my players are happy because they have an effective reminder "Now It's Time For You To Retreat", and I'm happy because I can hit them harder without worrying about accidentally killing them.

If the Fighting Spirit mod is too much for you, just give everyone an extra 10hp.

That's a really cool idea. It's not too much for me, though I fear it might be too much for my players. Either way, it's definitely on the short list of things to try.

[ChelseaNH]

The only healer in this party is the cleric, so if he's the guy who gets the unlucky crit, it might end in a TPK.

That could be addressed with a healing potion or two, or a partially used jar of Keoghtom's ointment.

[Kurt Kurageous]

I have pushed LVL 1 to 2 and 3 quickly by sending ever increasing waves of giant rats at them from 60' away. The rats come from their underground warren below a pile of trash. Start with a wave of two. The party decides when they've had enough at the end of a wave. Consider paying them silver per the notice found on MM 327.

When they come back the second time they face a few more giant rats and the BBEG, a were-rat. Without magic or silver, they can only close with and grapple him. The wererat is restrained when he fails 2 grapple contests (not easy). The other party members tie him up and turn him in for the reward.

A nice tidy event, gets players a chance to flex their stuff, limits the chances of TPK (unless they get XP greedy), and ends probably with good XP and a bit of silver or gold.

And hopefully they have learned about pack tactics, grappling, healing, teamwork, ranged weapons, melee weapons, and a little action economy. Not a bad start, I'd say.:roach:

[KorvinStarmast]

So I'm getting ready to run a game for 4-5 brand spanking new players, and they've chosen classes that are what would be called a sub-optimal party for sure.

Dragonborn Wizard
Dwarf Life Cleric
Elf Ranger
Human Ranger
Human Fighter (ranged, medium armor)

So the healer is also the tank. Really I have two questions:

The game is most likely going to be a very basic one-shot dungeon. I'm not going to railroad them if I can help it, but knowing them, I'll probably need to anyway. To misquote a current golf commercial:

Go Play! Stop agonizing about it. New players need to play, and to discover the game. Dying is part of it now and again.

Go Play!

[Safety Sword]

As a DM I hate Level 1 Characters. I have to cheat too much to keep them alive :smalltongue:

My advice is start at Level 2 or 3.

If you have brand new players and you kill all of their characters you might turn them off the game.

[BurgerBeast]

As a DM I hate Level 1 Characters. I have to cheat too much to keep them alive :smalltongue:

My advice is start at Level 2 or 3.

If you have brand new players and you kill all of their characters you might turn them off the game.

I'm not sure what I'm missing that makes my low level survival rates so high... is everyone else following the difficulty guidelines in the DMG?

I have had one TPK, and they were also the only deaths I've had so far in 5e (granted I don't as often as others). It happened in LMoP, courtesy of the bugbear. By DMG guidelines, the encounter was way beyond deadly.

[Addaran]

I have pushed LVL 1 to 2 and 3 quickly by sending ever increasing waves of giant rats at them from 60' away. The rats come from their underground warren below a pile of trash. Start with a wave of two. The party decides when they've had enough at the end of a wave. Consider paying them silver per the notice found on MM 327.

When they come back the second time they face a few more giant rats and the BBEG, a were-rat. Without magic or silver, they can only close with and grapple him. The wererat is restrained when he fails 2 grapple contests (not easy). The other party members tie him up and turn him in for the reward.

A nice tidy event, gets players a chance to flex their stuff, limits the chances of TPK (unless they get XP greedy), and ends probably with good XP and a bit of silver or gold.

And hopefully they have learned about pack tactics, grappling, healing, teamwork, ranged weapons, melee weapons, and a little action economy. Not a bad start, I'd say.:roach:

Haha, seems like a perfect little intro for new players, and it's in line with the BG's joke of killing rats for your first mission.
Might have to suggest to the player that they can grapple though, most new ones would just try to attack the wererat (and it's extremely hard to make a team with zero magic)

[Kurt Kurageous]

Might have to suggest to the player that they can grapple though, most new ones would just try to attack the wererat (and it's extremely hard to make a team with zero magic)

The grapple discovery is made after I suggest a lore check to learn about what they are facing in a WR. They learn that they have very limited ability to kill this thing, and instead should plan to capture it. Then they ask, "How is that possible?" The DM smiles and says,"...

Yes, the party will likely have some magic, but it might not be enough to reduce the WR to zero hp. And if the WR has more than zero HP, you might as well have not started casting HP spells at it in the first place.

I've done this or variants of this three times now.

[MBControl]

If you want to encourage this group to get into things more, I say start at level 3. Classes tend to start getting cool at level 2 or 3 depending on the class. Give them some cool "toys" to play with, and and a few more hit points so they aren't as squishy.

Tank problems? Good thing they saved that poor Orc Prisoner right before the boss battle *wink*
He helps in the battle to repay the party, and then leaves to rejoin his tribe after the battle.

You could also encourage one of your rangers to be a DPS melee precision tank. I play in a group of three PC's. We did not collaborate on PC builds, and when we got playing we had a Cleric a Druid and me, a Ranger. I morphed my ranger to be Two Weapon Fighter melee DPS based "tank". With a high enough DEX, your lack of HP is mitigated by a high AC score.

[Safety Sword]

I'm not sure what I'm missing that makes my low level survival rates so high... is everyone else following the difficulty guidelines in the DMG?

I have had one TPK, and they were also the only deaths I've had so far in 5e (granted I don't as often as others). It happened in LMoP, courtesy of the bugbear. By DMG guidelines, the encounter was way beyond deadly.

My issue is that if you play the traditional "low level" bad guys as thinking creatures they have abilities that can be really dangerous for people with less than 16 (typically) hit points. When you're on a run of luck with your damage dice it doesn't take much to have the wizard bleeding on the ground.

This is why I prefer almost zero combat until Level 2 to make sure everyone gets there.

[Thevoidsparrow]

what might be a good idea is to set up the characters with some help early on. as in, they meet some npcs who fill the roles they dont have, for some time, so the players have a chance to see what they can and cannot do, with less risk of dying. or maybe their first dungeon crawl lands them each an item that balances out each PC. by that, i mean that the fighter gets a sneaky boosting item, the ranger gets a close-quarters helping item, the wizard gets a special wizards-only sword or some such thing. you get the idea.

let them be a sub-optimal group. its their choice. just give them some backup early on as party training wheels.