Ghostwise Halfling Druid: Silent Speech in Wild Shape?

[rudy]

So, from Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide, the Ghostwise Halfling has the following subclass benefits.
* +1 Wis
* Silent Speech. You can speak telepathically to any creature within 30 feet of you. The creature understands you only if the two of you share a language. You can speak telepathically in this way to one creature at a time.

It occurred to me, both for roleplay and practicality reasons, that the Silent Speech thing would be super useful to have as a Moon Druid, when you're trying to stay in Wild Shape most of the time.

I'm not sure though whether it fits into a category of racial traits like Darkvision, where it doesn't carry over, or if it's fully part of your "mind" that does.

Thoughts?

[Belac93]

So, from Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide, the Ghostwise Halfling has the following subclass benefits.
* +1 Wis
* Silent Speech. You can speak telepathically to any creature within 30 feet of you. The creature understands you only if the two of you share a language. You can speak telepathically in this way to one creature at a time.

It occurred to me, both for roleplay and practicality reasons, that the Silent Speech thing would be super useful to have as a Moon Druid, when you're trying to stay in Wild Shape most of the time.

I'm not sure though whether it fits into a category of racial traits like Darkvision, where it doesn't carry over, or if it's fully part of your "mind" that does.

Thoughts?

I would allow it while DMing, I think it is a creative use of the ability that wouldn't be overpowered.

Its definitely a 'check with your DM' thing, but I allow it in my games.

[hymer]

Thoughts?

A lot of the fun about wild shape is roleplaying how you're trying to communicate. :smallbiggrin:
I agree that a DM could go either way on it, and it wouldn't go too far in any case.

[Discord]

You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so. However, you can't use any of your special senses, such as darkvision, unless your new form also has that sense.

Per the PHB page 67. I would say per RAW you can use Silent Speech.

[RickAllison]

A lot of the fun about wild shape is roleplaying how you're trying to communicate. :smallbiggrin:
I agree that a DM could go either way on it, and it wouldn't go too far in any case.

It is also limited by that wonderful 30' limit and that they can only communicate with one person at a time.

[8wGremlin]

so a GOO warlock/druid can use their telepathy as well...

[MaxWilson]

so a GOO warlock/druid can use their telepathy as well...

Yes, but now you can never be an Archdruid! And you're a little bit MAD.

[8wGremlin]

Yes, but now you can never be an Archdruid! And you're a little bit MAD.
True, but in 37 years of playing DND I've NEVER got to level 20.

level 5 yes nearly every single time,
level 11 yes pretty much
level 16 a couple of times

So end game perks are useless to me.
Unlike many MMO, where you grind to level <current max> and all the cool new content and plot is.
Dnd never seems to work out that way for me, and I've played in many different countries and cultures.

But yes you are MAD, but then it depends upon just how far up each class you go, and what your emphasis is.

[AttilatheYeon]

Going GOO lets you open up with Armor of Agythas. If you're Moon Druid (which most players are) then you can Wild Shape as a bonus on the same round. Splash a level or 3 of barb to rage, and now your a beast (pun intended) of a tank!

[Joe the Rat]

Yes, but now you can never be an Archdruid! And you're a little bit MAD.
Of course he's mad, he can't become Archdruid!
Do we have a text color for jokes? that ought to be a thing.
Beastform Telepathy should be fine, particulalry with the range and head limits. And now I'm picturing two wildshaped druids having conversations with one another.
"Why are those two squirrels just staring at each other?" "Dunno, but at least that weirdo with the tattoos and the greataxe stopped chittering at them."

[rudy]

Thanks for the feedback. Good to know that Mara from Princess Mononoke is doable.

[Aaedimus]

If you put it on a Shephard Druid would yippy rule that you could have silent conversations with beasts?

[Dalebert]

I haven't had a dm yet that disallowed it on my
Ghost wise monk/druid. Would be a bizarre interpretation that telepathy is not physically possible in the new form. Never even occurred to me to question it.

[MadBear]

I was trying to think of reasons a DM might not allow it, and at best I thought maybe this line "The creature understands you only if the two of you share a language." might imply that you no longer share a language when you're wild shaped.

But upon re-reading the druid rules: "You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies" & "You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so." There doesn't seem to be a good reason to prohibit this form working from a rules standpoint.

[hymer]

I was trying to think of reasons a DM might not allow it
The one I've seen was the idea that there is a centre in the brain for telepathy, which the ghostwise halflings have developed. Animals can't do that, so...
On a more conceptual or intuitive level, it's an ability very much akin to speech and darkvision, things you specifically lose in wild shape.

Anyway, as long as the DM doesn't spring it on you, I think it's fair to rule it either way.

Edit: Oh, that's why I had a feeling of déjà vu. I already said that two years ago. :smallamused:

[MadBear]

The one I've seen was the idea that there is a centre in the brain for telepathy, which the ghostwise halflings have developed. Animals can't do that, so...
On a more conceptual or intuitive level, it's an ability very much akin to speech and darkvision, things you specifically lose in wild shape.

Anyway, as long as the DM doesn't spring it on you, I think it's fair to rule it either way.

Edit: Oh, that's why I had a feeling of déjà vu. I already said that two years ago. :smallamused:

That is probably the closest thing to good reason to disallow it.

But considering you are supposed to allow most class/racial features, I would find banning it kinda petty. I mean, it'd be akin to banning a Tiefling from using their rebuke ability, because it comes from their special blood that an animal doesn't have. Or not allowing a monk to use their unarmed strikes because "a monk's muscles are specially trained to fight in a way an animals aren't".

[8wGremlin]

Also look at kalashtar

https://www.dndbeyond.com/characters/races/kalashtar
as they also get
Mind LinkYou can speak telepathically to any creature you can see within 60 feet of you. You don’t need to share a language with the creature for it to understand your telepathic messages, but the creature must be able to understand at least one language or be telepathic itself.
As a bonus action when you’re speaking telepathically to a creature, you can give that creature the ability to speak telepathically to you until the start of your next turn. To use this ability, the creature must be within 60 feet of you and be able to see you.

[Windwaert]

I was trying to think of reasons a DM might not allow it, and at best I thought maybe this line "The creature understands you only if the two of you share a language." might imply that you no longer share a language when you're wild shaped.

But upon re-reading the druid rules: "You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies" & "You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so." There doesn't seem to be a good reason to prohibit this form working from a rules standpoint.

It seems to me that you lose your language proficiencies, in the same way that one loses their armor proficiencies. So I would allow Silent Speech in Wildshape, but odds are, you won't share a language.

[8wGremlin]

You don't have the mind of the animal you are turning in to, you are still you.
You have the mental capacity to understand a language, but your current form lacks the ability to form words, yes it can growl, squark, or bellow, but it can't form words to communicate.

Telepathy, however, is direct mind to mind communication, and thus doesn't require the physical ability to form words

[Windwaert]

You don't have the mind of the animal you are turning in to, you are still you.
You have the mental capacity to understand a language, but your current form lacks the ability to form words, yes it can growl, squark, or bellow, but it can't form words to communicate.

Telepathy, however, is direct mind to mind communication, and thus doesn't require the physical ability to form words

In game terms, your game statistics are replaced by those of the beast. Without those language proficiencies, you can't understand, speak, read, or write those languages, regardless of the physical capabilities of the Wildshape.

[MadBear]

It seems to me that you lose your language proficiencies, in the same way that one loses their armor proficiencies. So I would allow Silent Speech in Wildshape, but odds are, you won't share a language.

If you lost your language proficiencies, then your character shouldn't be able to comprehend anything being said to them by their allies. That just seems weird.

[Windwaert]

If you lost your language proficiencies, then your character shouldn't be able to comprehend anything being said to them by their allies. That just seems weird.

Yep, Wildshape is poorly worded if you ask me. You can easily fix it with a houserule.

[MadBear]

Yep, Wildshape is poorly worded if you ask me. You can easily fix it with a houserule.

It's only poorly worded in the sense that it doesn't use super pedantic & hyper specific lawyerly language. If you use even the modest of generous interpretation, there's no way you can read the ability the way you're apparently reading it.

I mean, if we read it the way you are, you'd have to restrict basically every racial and class ability despite it saying you retain your racial and class abilities.

[Windwaert]

It's only poorly worded in the sense that it doesn't use super pedantic & hyper specific lawyerly language. If you use even the modest of generous interpretation, there's no way you can read the ability the way you're apparently reading it.

I mean, if we read it the way you are, you'd have to restrict basically every racial and class ability despite it saying you retain your racial and class abilities.

Okay, "poorly worded" is a bit harsh, but it is worded too vaguely for my liking.

How do you decide if you get to keep languages (if it is not spelled out)? Do you get armor and weapon proficiency from your race feature (say, Githyanki, Martial Prodigy) in Wildshape? Is Sunlight Sensitivity retained, since it's not really a benefit? Wood Elf Fleet of Foot is retained in Wildshape because it does not refer to specific anatomy*: By that logic, wouldn't the Flight feature of Aarakocra also be retained? And so on.

* https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/905513450645979136

[MadBear]

Okay, "poorly worded" is a bit harsh, but it is worded too vaguely for my liking.

How do you decide if you get to keep languages (if it is not spelled out)? Do you get armor and weapon proficiency from your race feature (say, Githyanki, Martial Prodigy) in Wildshape? Is Sunlight Sensitivity retained, since it's not really a benefit? Wood Elf Fleet of Foot is retained in Wildshape because it does not refer to specific anatomy*: By that logic, wouldn't the Flight feature of Aarakocra also be retained? And so on.

* https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/905513450645979136

In that case, JC even says it's a DM's call.

The Aarakocra might not specifically say they get flying because of their wings, but we can all intuit that they get flying because of their wings.

This is kinda what I mean by lawyerly language. One big difference between 5e and 3.X, is that in trying to codify and use rigid language in 3.X lead to a codified nightmare (probably a bit harsh, I just hated the RAW debates that I saw all the time back then). 5e uses more natural language, and leaves it up to the DM to interpret it how they see fit.

In this case, there are definitely things where people can have genuine disagreement, and each DM can rule accordingly. but overall I much prefer this to 3.X's wording of rules and abilities.

[8wGremlin]

While you are transformed, the following rules apply:



Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast, but you retain your alignment, personality, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature. If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus is higher than yours, use the creature's bonus. If the creature has any legendary or lair actions, you can't use them.
When you transform, you assume the beast's hit points and Hit Dice. When you revert to your normal form, you return to the number of hit points you had before you transformed. However, if you revert as a result of dropping to 0 hit points, any extra damage carries over to your normal form. As long as the excess damage doesn't reduce your normal form to 0 hit points, you aren't knocked unconscious.
You can't cast spells, and your ability to speak or take any action that requires hands is limited to the capabilities of your beast form. Transforming doesn't break your concentration on a spell you've already cast, however, or prevent you from taking actions that are part of a spell that you've already cast.
You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so. However, you can't use any of your special senses, such as darkvision, unless your new form also has that sense.
You choose whether your equipment falls to the ground in your space, merges into your new form, or is worn by it. Worn equipment functions as normal, but the GM decides whether it is practical for the new form to wear a piece of equipment. Your equipment doesn't change to match the new form, and any equipment that the new form can't wear must either fall to the ground or merge with it. Equipment that merges with the form has no effect until you leave the form.


It's your brain, your racial languages, your background languages, these are all features of your class, race, or other sources. Why do you think you suddenly can't understand a language?

[Windwaert]

In this case, there are definitely things where people can have genuine disagreement, and each DM can rule accordingly. but overall I much prefer this to 3.X's wording of rules and abilities.

That is fine. Druids need to discuss with DM anyways (like what Wildshapes are acceptable).

[MadBear]

That is fine. Druids need to discuss with DM anyways (like what Wildshapes are acceptable).

On this I think we are in 100% violent agreement.

[Windwaert]

[/LIST]

It's your brain, your racial languages, your background languages, these are all features of your class, race, or other sources. Why do you think you suddenly can't understand a language?

RAI, yes.

However, RAW, those specific features "racial languages", and "background languages" are applied once at character creation and are part of your game statistics, which are then replaced by those of the beast. In the same way that a beast does not learn the weapon and armor proficiencies that your class starts with. Or, in the same way you do not again apply your racial "Ability Score Increase" to the beast's ability scores.

It's a very strict reading of the rules (not necessary the way it was intended or the most fun).

[MadBear]

RAI, yes.

However, RAW, those specific features "racial languages", and "background languages" are applied once at character creation and are part of your game statistics, which are then replaced by those of the beast. In the same way that a beast does not learn the weapon and armor proficiencies that your class starts with. Or, in the same way you do not again apply your racial "Ability Score Increase" to the beast's ability scores.

It's a very strict reading of the rules (not necessary the way it was intended or the most fun).

This is less of a RAI vs RAW, and more of a what is the correct interpretation of RAW. Because RAW, you keep your racial and class abilities. To say that's RAI but not RAW, is factually wrong.

Now, the specifics what exactly you and your DM will accept will vary table to table. Because I'd say there's no problem allowing a Druid who wild shaped into a ape using a weapon. When you say:


"racial languages", and "background languages" are applied once at character creation and are part of your game statistics, which are then replaced by those of the beast.

you seem to be blatantly ignoring the part of the text that says:

"You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so."

[Skylivedk]

So, from Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide, the Ghostwise Halfling has the following subclass benefits.
* +1 Wis
* Silent Speech. You can speak telepathically to any creature within 30 feet of you. The creature understands you only if the two of you share a language. You can speak telepathically in this way to one creature at a time.

It occurred to me, both for roleplay and practicality reasons, that the Silent Speech thing would be super useful to have as a Moon Druid, when you're trying to stay in Wild Shape most of the time.

I'm not sure though whether it fits into a category of racial traits like Darkvision, where it doesn't carry over, or if it's fully part of your "mind" that does.

Thoughts?

I've done it was fun.. Especially barking at one, telepathically letting someone else know it was a decoy. Also used it to enhance the feeling of being an incarnation of Mother Nature's wrath itself. Telepathically taunting and enemy while ripping his comrade to shreds seemed quite unnerving.


In game terms, your game statistics are replaced by those of the beast. Without those language proficiencies, you can't understand, speak, read, or write those languages, regardless of the physical capabilities of the Wildshape.

That depends on what you think the text means with "game statistics". As such, there's no reason to believe it means that skills and proficiencies are included. Actually, quite the opposite:

"Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast, but you retain your alignment, personality, and Intelligence, W isdom , and Charisma scores. You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature.

If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature’s bonus instead of yours. If the creature has any legendary or lair actions, you can't use them."

Skills, saving throws and mental stats are kept. By this text, it seems to be attacks, hp, AC, movement speed and physical stats that are lost.

"You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so. However, you can’t use any o f your special senses, such as darkvision, unless your new form also has that sense."

Other source... Such as language from background?


RAI, yes.

However, RAW, those specific features "racial languages", and "background languages" are applied once at character creation and are part of your game statistics, which are then replaced by those of the beast. In the same way that a beast does not learn the weapon and armor proficiencies that your class starts with. Or, in the same way you do not again apply your racial "Ability Score Increase" to the beast's ability scores.

It's a very strict reading of the rules (not necessary the way it was intended or the most fun).

It's not a strict reading. It's your reading where you've chosen a specific interpretation of "game statistics" that don't mesh with the second part I posted and which you've no reason to believe is the right one.

[Windwaert]

That depends on what you think the text means with "game statistics". As such, there's no reason to believe it means that skills and proficiencies are included.
Hold up, why would proficiencies be excluded from game statistics when skill and saving throw proficiencies are explicitly mentioned as exception to what gets replaced by the beast's game statistics? If proficiencies were not included in "game statistics", then that exception makes no sense:

"Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast, but you retain your ... You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature."

^ all within the Wild Shape bullet point on replacing game statistics.

Note that monster stat blocks list any language proficiencies. The very (game) stat(istics) blocks that a Druid replaces their game statistics with.

In fact, the MM section on STATISTICS on pg. 6 onwards gives a good idea of what is included in (game) statistics. Armor, weapon and tool proficiencies are discussed on pg. 9. They were omitted from stat blocks to save space. Instead: "Assume that a creature is proficient with its armor, weapons, and tools. If you swap them out, you decide whether the creature is proficient with its new equipment." Beasts typically have no equipment.


"You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so. However, you can’t use any of your special senses, such as darkvision, unless your new form also has that sense."

Other source... Such as language from background?
Here's how I am reading it:

Wild Shape is an ability that lets you replace your game statistics with that of a beast: Some of your Class, Background, or Race gave benefits in the form of game statistics (language, armor, weapon, tool,... proficiencies) that are replaced by those of the beast form (first bullet point of Wild Shape). The fourth bullet point of Wildshape let's you retain the benefits of your features. Note that you thus cannot retain benefits which are already replaced (gone).

Interestingly, the monster stat block does not contain "features", but traits.

[Dalebert]

In game terms, your game statistics are replaced by those of the beast. Without those language proficiencies, you can't understand, speak, read, or write those languages, regardless of the physical capabilities of the Wildshape.

I'm pretty sure you're getting wildshape mixed up with Polymorph. Wildshape doesn't completely replace your statistics. It lists a number of things you retain including your mental stats, racial features, proficiencies... quite a lot actually.


The one I've seen was the idea that there is a centre in the brain for telepathy, which the ghostwise halflings have developed. Animals can't do that, so...

You could arbitrarily ban any racial feature that way. You could simply say you're no longer that race and being that race is a physical requirement of having the racial feature, but that would contradict "you keep your racial features". Crawford even said racial breath weapons would be retained as long as the creature you turned into had lungs.



On a more conceptual or intuitive level, it's an ability very much akin to speech and darkvision, things you specifically lose in wild shape.

I don't see how it is like a sense or speech, at all.

[Windwaert]

I'm pretty sure you're getting wildshape mixed up with Polymorph.
No, but thanks for assuming I didn't look up the rules before making my points.



Wildshape doesn't completely replace your statistics. It lists a number of things you retain including your mental stats, racial features, proficiencies... quite a lot actually.

Quite a lot indeed, but clearly not things like armor, weapon, tool and language proficiencies. And no, you do not retain racial features, you retain the benefit of any racial feature (yes, there is a difference, see previous post of mine).

[8wGremlin]

Please @Windwaert no one is personally attacking you, so please keep it civil and discuss this properly.

We have all stated our cases and no one is agreeing with you.
If you wish to continue to put forward your interpretation when we have constantly pointed out where we disagree.

None of the people, who have spent time and effort in answering your interpretation, are going to change their view on what you have stated.

You have the right to interpret the rules however you see fit.
I will continue with the way I interpret the rules which coincidentally is the same way that the Adventures League play it.

I thank you for the discussion and can see what we can not change your view, and visa versa.

[Dalebert]

You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so.

Adding "other source" makes this incredibly sweeping language.


Quite a lot indeed, but clearly not things like armor, weapon, tool and language proficiencies.

I'm still baffled at your interpretation. It clearly does include things like armor, weapons, tools, and languages. The question it raises is whether you're capable of using the proficiencies due to your physical limits, e.g. holding an axe if you have no hands. You can use a language proficiency to understand a language as long as you still have hearing but you can't speak the language because speech is specifically called out as something you lose.


And no, you do not retain racial features, you retain the benefit of any racial feature (yes, there is a difference, see previous post of mine).

I sincerely went back and re-read your previous posts but I missed where this difference was explained. A benefit of a language proficiency (a feature from a race or other source like background) would be understanding that language. A benefit of carpentry tools would be understanding how well a wooden bridge was put together before you cross it though you can't wield the tools because you have no hands. A benefit of armor proficiency would be wearing barding without penalty but you'd need someone else to put it on you, again because no hands.

[Windwaert]

Please @Windwaert no one is personally attacking you, so please keep it civil and discuss this properly.

No harsh feelings, but stating that I am mixing up Wild Shape and Polymorph, when I am quoting the Wild Shape rules is a bit disingenuous IMHO. It was meant snarky and humorous, but that was probably lost in translation.

I made my points, there is little left to discuss.



We have all stated our cases and no one is agreeing with you.
If you wish to continue to put forward your interpretation when we have constantly pointed out where we disagree.
I felt like explaining my interpretation and responding to the counter-arguments.



None of the people, who have spent time and effort in answering your interpretation, are going to change their view on what you have stated.
That is fine.



You have the right to interpret the rules however you see fit.
Likewise.



I thank you for the discussion and can see what we can not change your view, and visa versa.


We agree to disagree.

[Dalebert]

It was meant snarky and humorous, but that was probably lost in translation.

Not at all. I sincerely thought you were confusing the two. I've seen it before. I know better now.

[BarneyBent]

No harsh feelings, but stating that I am mixing up Wild Shape and Polymorph, when I am quoting the Wild Shape rules is a bit disingenuous IMHO. It was meant snarky and humorous, but that was probably lost in translation.

You might be quoting the wild shape rules, but you’re excluding some very important points while you do it, such as:

“Your game Statistics are replaced by the Statistics of the beast, but you retain your Alignment, personality, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature.”

It is unambiguous that you retain your proficiencies. It is stated there, and again in the section that has already been quoted (benefits of race, class, etc features). Whether you can USE them is determined by your physical form.

For example, a Hill Dwarf Druid has proficiency with a Battleaxe because it is a benefit of its racial feature, Dwarven Combat Training. While Wild Shaped as a bear, the dwarf retains that proficiency, but is unable to use it because it is physically incapable of it. It’s just like as if he had his arms chopped off, or was manacled, or hell, just simply didn’t have a battleaxe. He doesn’t lose the proficiency, he just doesn’t have the resources to use it.

Same thing applies to languages. A Druid in wild shape retains its languages. Languages are a racial feature (also class, background, etc). They generally lose the ability to use them because they cannot physically form words, but they still retain the language. However, by virtue of their racial feature, a Ghostwise Halfling does not need to be able to physically form words in order to make use of their language to communicate. Therefore, they can communicate. It is RAW. You can choose to interpret that telepathy is a physical trait like Darkvision. That would also be RAW as the RAW does not specifically define what is meant by “physically capable”, nor the source of the telepathy (you could flavour it as they have special hairs on their feet that create telepathic waves they use to communicate or something if you like). That would be compatible with RAW, although would be, in my opinion, an odd take.

It is certainly incorrect to assert that a houserule is required to give a Ghostwise Halfling Druid their telepathy while wildshaped, or that Druids in general lose their language while Wildshaped. The former isn’t explicit but is well within a reasonable interpretation of RAW, while the latter is explicit.

[Windwaert]

Adding "other source" makes this incredibly sweeping language.
I agree.


I'm still baffled at your interpretation. It clearly does include things like armor, weapons, tools, and languages.
Let me rephrase my interpretation, maybe it helps:

1. Proficiencies are game statistics (as supported by the STATISTICS section in the MM).
2. Class, Race, and Background features can gave the Druid certain benefits in the form of proficiencies (which are game statistics).
3. The Druid Uses Wild Shape: the first bullet point states: "Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast". This then means that the Druid has only the proficiencies that the beast has + his original "alignment, personality, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores" and "skill and saving throw proficiencies" which he explicitly retained. While the Druid thus got to keep his skill and saving throws; - his armor, weapon, tool and language proficiencies did get completely replaced by those of the beast (which typically have no such proficiencies). You do not retain your own armor, weapon, tool and language proficiencies in Wild Shape, because the rules do not explicitly except them from being replaced.



The question it raises is whether you're capable of using the proficiencies due to your physical limits, e.g. holding an axe if you have no hands.
I argue that you do not retain your original Druid weapon proficiencies, but even if you did, most beast form would indeed be physically incapable of using them.



You can use a language proficiency to understand a language as long as you still have hearing but you can't speak the language because speech is specifically called out as something you lose.
IMO language proficiency is a game statistic which does get replaced in the first bullet point. Language proficiencies are not specifically called out as something you retain.


I sincerely went back and re-read your previous posts but I missed where this difference was explained. A benefit of a language proficiency (a feature from a race or other source like background) would be understanding that language. A benefit of carpentry tools would be understanding how well a wooden bridge was put together before you cross it though you can't wield the tools because you have no hands. A benefit of armor proficiency would be wearing barding without penalty but you'd need someone else to put it on you, again because no hands.

Just to make clear: I'm not talking about the benefit of a proficiency, that would be the proficiency bonus added to dice rolls (The proficiency and adding the bonus should never be seen as separate). I was talking about features and the benefit of a feature. A feature gives a benefit at character creation or at a certain level. The benefits are codified as Proficiencies, Ability Score Increases, Languages (which would fall under game statistics), OR action abilities, conditional rules, etc. (which would not fall under game statistics)

Here's an example why I think that does make a difference:

If you did retain features themselves:
1 The Dwarf Druid gained brewer's supplies proficiency from his racial Tool Proficiency at character creation.
2 During Wild Shape (bullet point 1), the Druid's tool proficiencies get replaced with the tool proficiencies of the beast (none). <Tool proficiencies are not retained.
3 Bullet point 4 of Wild Shape would let the Druid retain the Tool Proficiency racial feature, it's easy to argue that beast form (re)gains this proficiency with brewer's supplies. Essentially invoking the feature rules to gain the benefit.

How only retaining the benefit of a feature is different:
1 The Dwarf Druid's Tool Proficiency gives a benefit: proficiency with a tool like brewer's supplies. The feature give a benefit, the proficiency is that benefit.
2 During Wild Shape (bullet point 1), the Druid's tool proficiencies get replaced with the tool proficiencies of the beast (none).
3 Bullet point 4 of Wild Shape lets the Druid retain the benefit of any features. The benefit of the Dwarven Tool Proficiency (brewer's supplies proficiency) is already replaced by the tool proficiencies of the beast (none), so the Druid can't retain the benefit of that racial feature. The Druid cannot invoke the Tool Proficiency feature, because features themselves are not retained in Wild Shape.

Note that the benefit of the Dragonborn's Breath Weapon is an action option to exhale destructive energy. This benefit is not a game statistic (like proficiencies), and is thus not overwritten by bullet point 1 of Wild Shape and can be retained by bullet point 4. Other examples: Dwarf's Stonecunning or Elf's Fey Ancestry.

---

Devil's advocate:
Wouldn't the benefit of e.g., Dwarf's Tool Proficiency, be gaining the proficiency (instead of the proficiency itself)?
That would mean that the benefit is over once you gained the proficiency of choice. So after character creation, that benefit cannot be retained in Wild Shape, since it's already over.

[Teaguethebean]

i would say no silent speech is a language not telepathy but it would be fun if it did

[Windwaert]

“Your game Statistics are replaced by the Statistics of the beast, but you retain your Alignment, personality, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature.”

It is unambiguous that you retain your proficiencies.
It is unambiguous that you retain all your skill and saving throw proficiencies. Armor, weapon, tool and language proficiencies are not skill or saving throw proficiencies. They are not interchangeable.



For example, a Hill Dwarf Druid has proficiency with a Battleaxe because it is a benefit of its racial feature, Dwarven Combat Training.
See above, I argue that the weapon proficiency (the benefit) is already replaced by those of the beast (none).



Same thing applies to languages. A Druid in wild shape retains its languages. Languages are a racial feature (also class, background, etc). They generally lose the ability to use them because they cannot physically form words, but they still retain the language.
The features give language proficiencies as benefit. Language proficiencies are replaced by bullet point 1 of Wild Shape, meaning that such benefit cannot be retained by bullet point 4.



However, by virtue of their racial feature, a Ghostwise Halfling does not need to be able to physically form words in order to make use of their language to communicate. Therefore, they can communicate. It is RAW. You can choose to interpret that telepathy is a physical trait like Darkvision. That would also be RAW as the RAW does not specifically define what is meant by “physically capable”, nor the source of the telepathy (you could flavour it as they have special hairs on their feet that create telepathic waves they use to communicate or something if you like). That would be compatible with RAW, although would be, in my opinion, an odd take.

If they share a language prof., then sure. I'm just not convinced you retain your language proficiencies (shouldn't those have been listed as exceptions, just like skill and saving throws profs. are?)



It is certainly incorrect to assert that a houserule is required to give a Ghostwise Halfling Druid their telepathy while wildshaped, or that Druids in general lose their language while Wildshaped. The former isn’t explicit but is well within a reasonable interpretation of RAW, while the latter is explicit.

I have a question. If bullet point 4 of Wild Shape lets you RAW retain the benefit of any feature like racial or background language proficiency even after bullet points 1 (and 2), then why would you not retain the benefits of class features like Hit Points (HD, HP per level), Proficiencies, and Equipment or racial features like Dwarven Toughness?

[BarneyBent]

It is unambiguous that you retain all your skill and saving throw proficiencies. Armor, weapon, tool and language proficiencies are not skill or saving throw proficiencies. They are not interchangeable.

Fair point, but it is resolved by:

“You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source”

If you have a language due to a feature from your class, race or other source, you retain that. Unambiguously. You can only use it if your physical form permits it, but you have it regardless. Otherwise, it would read “you retain benefits of any features from your class, race or other source IF you can physically make use of it”. Such a reading would be much more ambiguous - if you can’t speak a language due to physical constraints, can you really use it, and therefore retain it? Very ambiguous and subject to interpretation. But that’s not what the rules say. They say you retain the benefits, you just can’t necessarily use them.

So basically, RAW, you retain your languages and use them to listen and understand, provided your new form can hear and/or receive telepathic communication, but you can’t physically speak.




See above, I argue that the weapon proficiency (the benefit) is already replaced by those of the beast (none)

“You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source”.

It is clear. Your statistics are replaced, except for benefits of features from your class, race or other sources. That includes languages.



The features give language proficiencies as benefit. Language proficiencies are replaced by bullet point 1 of Wild Shape, meaning that such benefit cannot be retained by bullet point 4.

But they are not replaced by bullet point 1. General vs specific. Generally your statistics are replaced. Specifically, this excludes benefits from race, class and other sources, though these can only be used in ways that your form is physically capable of.



If they share a language prof., then sure. I'm just not convinced you retain your language proficiencies (shouldn't those have been listed as exceptions, just like skill and saving throws profs. are?)

They are, when the rules say “You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source”.



I have a question. If bullet point 4 of Wild Shape lets you RAW retain the benefit of any feature like racial or background language proficiency even after bullet points 1 (and 2), then why would you not retain the benefits of class features like Hit Points (HD, HP per level), Proficiencies, and Equipment or racial features like Dwarven Toughness?

Hit points: because dot point 2 specifically says you don’t.
Proficiencies: you do retain your proficiencies.
Equipment: specifically says you choose if equipment gets absorbed, dropped, or worn if practical (dot point 5)
Racial features: you do retain them. In the case of Dwarven Toughness, you still have that - you just don’t get any benefit while your HP and hit dice are replaced by the wild shape as per dot point 2. For example, if you were to happen to level up while in Wild Shape, you would calculate your new non-wild shape HP max with Dwarven Toughness considered; it just wouldn’t effect your current hit points until you left wild shape.

In short bullet point 2 is exactly why you don’t retain your hit point features. Everything else you do retain, even if you probably don’t get to use them. You even retain your spells known, otherwise you presumably wouldn’t be able to maintain concentration on them after wildshaping, and the Druid’s level 18 ability would be useless.

[hymer]

You could arbitrarily ban any racial feature that way. You could simply say you're no longer that race and being that race is a physical requirement of having the racial feature, but that would contradict "you keep your racial features". Crawford even said racial breath weapons would be retained as long as the creature you turned into had lungs.
Nonono, he went farther than that. All you need is a mouth. And he even went on to accept just spiracles. So most insects and fish could do it according to that tweet, lungs or not. Which I do not see every DM out there going along with. Even if 99% of them would go along with it, I'll be happy to support the decision against by the last 1%, as happy as I am to support the opposite decision. Arbitrary you say?
Yes, the suggestions I've mentioned are arbitrary. Being the arbiter of questions to the DM is the DM's job. If a DM made that call to me, I'd shrug and consider whether to pick a stout halfling instead.


I don't see how it is like a sense or speech, at all.
I'm not sure whether you want me to explain it to you, so I'll do it just on the off chance: It's like one person saying 'red' and the next person thinking 'blood'. Or to put it in D&D terms, if you want to climb a wall, it helps if you have a spider on you (a material component for Spider Climb). The concept here is, for example, that someone reads that you specifically can't speak in wild shape, and then thinks "Well, that must apply to this silent speech as well, or else what's the point?"

The wild shape rules aren't inherently logical, because they deal with something inherently impossible. That's okay, it's fantasy after all.

[Windwaert]

For all the following, I assume you agree with me on what constitutes game statistics (The things in monster stat blocks as the MM explains, which includes all proficiencies). If that is not the case, let me know.
I believe the disagreement is in the interaction of the Wild Shape bullet points.


Fair point, but it is resolved by:

“You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source”

If you have a language due to a feature from your class, race or other source, you retain that. Unambiguously.



But they are not replaced by bullet point 1. General vs specific. Generally your statistics are replaced. Specifically, this excludes benefits from race, class and other sources, though these can only be used in ways that your form is physically capable of.

Specific beats general: Aren't game statistics more specific than benefits from class features? Benefits from class features can be codified as game statistics (HP, profs., speed, size, resistances, etc.) and more, like other things/abilities (Breath Weapon, Fey Ancestry, etc.)

The thing is, the Druid is crunch-wise pretty much entirely a product of his features from his class, race, or other source. If bullet point 4 applies to benefits that are game statistics (armor, weapon, tool, language profs.) otherwise replaced in bullet point 1, then you'd retain all these benefits, but just can't use them based on physical capabilities... That does not sound right to me: What stops you from retaining any of your racial and class Ability Score Improvements, even in STR, DEX, CON benefits? What stops you from retaining your racial Size or Speed feature "benefit"?


“you retain benefits of any features from your class, race or other source IF you can physically make use of it”. Such a reading would be much more ambiguous - if you can’t speak a language due to physical constraints, can you really use it, and therefore retain it? Very ambiguous and subject to interpretation. But that’s not what the rules say. They say you retain the benefits, you just can’t necessarily use them.
In both those readings of bullet point 4, you still really need to know what "physically capable of doing so" entails. In game, there is no real difference between benefits that you do not have, and those that you cannot physically use (except perhaps for dependencies between benefits or when shapeshifting even further).
Are Brown Bears physically capable of exhaling destructive energy (Breath Weapon)?




Hit points: because dot point 2 specifically says you don’t.
Proficiencies: you do retain your proficiencies.
Equipment: specifically says you choose if equipment gets absorbed, dropped, or worn if practical (dot point 5)
I tend to agree with your Hit points argument. However, if you retain all proficiencies (class, race,background) on basis of bullet point 4, then why does bullet point 1 specifically only mention retaining skill and saving throw proficiencies? That still seems terribly odd to me.



Racial features: you do retain them. In the case of Dwarven Toughness, you still have that - you just don’t get any benefit while your HP and hit dice are replaced by the wild shape as per dot point 2. For example, if you were to happen to level up while in Wild Shape, you would calculate your new non-wild shape HP max with Dwarven Toughness considered; it just wouldn’t effect your current hit points until you left wild shape.
Hold up, it is strongly implied that the Druid also assumes the max HP from the beast: https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/739158298188861440
Why not retain the benefit of Dwarven Toughness (Your hit point maximum increases by 1) after your max HP was replaced by that of the beast? <-- In the same way you argue to retain language proficiencies after the armor, weapon, tool, language profs. were replaced by those of the beast.

[darknite]

Not a problem in a game I DM. Wildshape says you can't talk (Silent Speech isn't vocal) and you retain racial abilities (which is what Silent Speech is for Ghostwise). It's only one-on-one communication with a range of 30', as I recall, so I'd remind them of those limitations.

[MadBear]

It's a very strict reading of the rules (not necessary the way it was intended or the most fun).

Here's the thing that I really don't get about your argument in this thread. We have multiple different accounts of how an ability could be read. So even if I concede that your interpretation is possible, we are now in a situation with different interpretations.

In light of that fact, the thing that makes the most sense is to go with the interpretation that makes the game better, more fun, and the way it was intended. In that light, I don't see why you'd even attach yourself to a reading of the rules that is by your own account, less fun, & not intended. Why even make that argument?

[Windwaert]

Here's the thing that I really don't get about your argument in this thread. We have multiple different accounts of how an ability could be read. So even if I concede that your interpretation is possible, we are now in a situation with different interpretations.

In light of that fact, the thing that makes the most sense is to go with the interpretation that makes the game better, more fun, and the way it was intended. In that light, I don't see why you'd even attach yourself to a reading of the rules that is by your own account, less fun, & not intended. Why even make that argument?

Indeed, many interpretations are possible, and strong arguments are made for each (which, coincidentally, is why I called those rules too vague for my liking). I presented my interpretation as what I believe is a fairly strict reading or RAW (the initial question regarded the rules after all), with the disclaimer that it may not be the one that is the most fun (to most) or intended. Personally, I get the most enjoyment out of playing close to what I believe are the rules as written, because it otherwise feels more subjective or less consistent to me. Most people do not see DnD that way, hence the disclaimer.

When others challenged whether my interpretation was indeed RAW or not, we ended up discussing the rules as written. I was very much interested in seeing why others believe a different interpretation is stricter, and if that interpretation feels more internally consistent to me, which is why I kept asking about difficult edge cases. While agreement on a clear, conclusive RAW interpretation seems completely out of the picture, I think it was at least somewhat productive. I've gained different perspectives on Wild Shape.

In the end, it doesn't even really matter if there is a RAW correct interpretation, when you can be playing whatever is the most fun. Heck, I would probably allow Silent Speech or languages in Wild Shape as DM. Again, no harsh feeling, I really enjoyed the rules discussion.

[sulimo0310]

I am pretty sure RAW you keep the ability to use silent speach. As has been pointed out you kept features and traits in wildshape as long as the new form is capable of doing it. The confusion, for some, is that your STATISCS are replaced with that of the beast. I think we should look as to how statistics are defined in the English language as it is not a codified game term and 5e has made an effort to use general conversational language rather than the a strict list of codified terms of past editions. Merriam-Webster defines statistics as such:
1.
a fact or piece of data from a study of a large quantity of NUMERICAL data.
"the statistics show that the crime rate has increased" (emphasis mine)
So your statistics are specifically numbers. Things like hit points, AC, ability scores, etc. Exceptions (such as mental ability scores) are called out, but essentially where there is a number on your sheet you replace it with that of the beast. Things like language, or class features, aren't statistics and are therefore kept, unless the new form is incapable of performing the ability due to anatomy (such as flight)

[elyktsorb]

I'm sorry, I sort of just glanced through here, but why is anyone arguing that you lose language proficiency? Are you saying that when you Wildshape, you suddenly lose the ability to understand the languages you knew?

Alright guys, I'm going to morph into X animal. 'Morphs' And now I can't understand any words, hope nothing important is ever said.

Even if this was the actual interpretation of the rules, I would ignore it to hell and back, and I think many people would too.

Also someone keeps saying Language Proficiency, Language isn't a proficiency.

[Windwaert]

I think we should look as to how statistics are defined in the English language as it is not a codified game term and 5e has made an effort to use general conversational language rather than the a strict list of codified terms of past editions. Merriam-Webster defines statistics as such:
1.
a fact or piece of data from a study of a large quantity of NUMERICAL data.
"the statistics show that the crime rate has increased" (emphasis mine)
So your statistics are specifically numbers. Things like hit points, AC, ability scores, etc. Exceptions (such as mental ability scores) are called out, but essentially where there is a number on your sheet you replace it with that of the beast. Things like language, or class features, aren't statistics and are therefore kept, unless the new form is incapable of performing the ability due to anatomy (such as flight)
I would argue that languages (language) are a codified game term and part of the game statistics of a creature. They are listed in the PHB, they are entries in the monsters' stat blocks as explained in the STATISTICS section of the MM (page 9 specifically). As such, in strict reading the general English definition matters not, in the same way that e.g., Sneak Attack may be applied even when the Rogue is not necessarily sneaking. Also, the Druid assumes the Size of the beast, which is also not a number...

[Windwaert]

I'm sorry, I sort of just glanced through here, but why is anyone arguing that you lose language proficiency? Are you saying that when you Wildshape, you suddenly lose the ability to understand the languages you knew?

I was arguing that a strict reading would mean that the Druid loses their original languages during Wild Shape. Plenty people disagree with my reading or care less about RAW. And, yes, Druid suddenly losing understanding of their original languages would be pretty dumb.


Also someone keeps saying Language Proficiency, Language isn't a proficiency.
Sorry, I was wrong. Indeed, languages are not proficiencies. I've been working on custom character sheets and proficiencies and languages are typically together in one box, hence my confusion. It does not matter for my earlier arguments.

[sulimo0310]

I would argue that languages (language) are a codified game term and part of the game statistics of a creature. They are listed in the PHB, they are entries in the monsters' stat blocks as explained in the STATISTICS section of the MM (page 9 specifically). As such, in strict reading the general English definition matters not, in the same way that e.g., Sneak Attack may be applied even when the Rogue is not necessarily sneaking. Also, the Druid assumes the Size of the beast, which is also not a number...

I can see your argument. I would argue that a stat block is a codified game term that lists a set of attributes for a creature, which includes, but is not limited to, that creatures statistics. As far as the Sneak Attack example, I think it's an apples to oranges comparison. Sneak attack itself is a codified game term. It's the name of a class feature, not the description of how that class feature works. We aren't trying to parse the natural language of the phrase "Wild Shape" but the language of the description. As far as size, one could argue that it is in fact a number. It's a measurement of the number of 5 ft squares your character occupies. For shorthand things like medium and large are used. Admittedly this isn't a perfect argument as medium and small creatures both take up a 5 foot square. Either way, I totally see your side of it and am just playing devil's advocate at this point. 😁