Help with Vicious Mockery.

[Maxor]

I love the flavor of vicious mockery.

I like the disadvantage effect.

I can live with the low damage.

I hate hate hate hate hate, how about 1/3rd of the time on average and very close to half the time when used against a major foe they make their save and I wasted my action.

I view the main effect of the spell as the disadvantage.

At any point the 1d4 of hit or miss damage is inconsequential. Has anyone else encountered this feeling or am I fairly alone in this?

I guess sacred flame has a similar mechanic but haven't seen my party cleric do it much.

[DracoKnight]

I love the flavor of vicious mockery.

I like the disadvantage effect.

I can live with the low damage.

I hate hate hate hate hate, how about 1/3rd of the time on average and very close to half the time when used against a major foe they make their save and I wasted my action.

I view the main effect of the spell as the disadvantage.

At any point the 1d4 of hit or miss damage is inconsequential. Has anyone else encountered this feeling or am I fairly alone in this?

I guess sacred flame has a similar mechanic but haven't seen my party cleric do it much.

A developer Tweet (which I will try to find) agrees with you. The Disadvantage is the main feature of the spell - the damage is gravy. To the point where the Disadvantage is intended to happen no matter what, your target is saving against the damage, not the Disadvantage.

[R.Shackleford]

I love the flavor of vicious mockery.

I like the disadvantage effect.

I can live with the low damage.

I hate hate hate hate hate, how about 1/3rd of the time on average and very close to half the time when used against a major foe they make their save and I wasted my action.

I view the main effect of the spell as the disadvantage.

At any point the 1d4 of hit or miss damage is inconsequential. Has anyone else encountered this feeling or am I fairly alone in this?

I guess sacred flame has a similar mechanic but haven't seen my party cleric do it much.

Thats not an issue of the spell or even the system, it is probably your DM fudging rolls.

Or you are unlucky.

Enemies don't have good saves in 5e.

[Maxor]

Went from a 14 to a 16 save over the last couple of levels it has helped some. I have also been tending to spam Firebolt from magic initiate at 4th which usually hits and does 2d8 rolling better for me.... Not sure why but my d4's roll low and my d8s roll 6,7 and 8.

[DracoKnight]

Went from a 14 to a 16 save over the last couple of levels it has helped some. I have also been tending to spam Firebolt from magic initiate at 4th which usually hits and does 2d8 rolling better for me.... Not sure why but my d4's roll low and my d8s roll 6,7 and 8.

Your Firebolt should be doing xd10 damage.

[Quintessence]

Thats not an issue of the spell or even the system, it is probably your DM fudging rolls.

Or you are unlucky.

Enemies don't have good saves in 5e.

Enemies don't have good wisdom saves in 5e*


They have quite nice saves overall..

[Aaron Underhand]

A developer Tweet (which I will try to find) agrees with you. The Disadvantage is the main feature of the spell - the damage is gravy. To the point where the Disadvantage is intended to happen no matter what, your target is saving against the damage, not the Disadvantage.

I'd love to see the reference, I've always played save vs both effects.

For me the issue with VM is its very poor scaling - I have considered houseruling that at level 5 it gives disadvantage to the next TWO attacks in the Targets Next Turn. Would increase to affect 3 attacks at 11 and 4 at 17th (From memory, AFB). This is just so it makes sense to cast at higher levels against multiattacking foes.

[R.Shackleford]

Enemies don't have good wisdom saves in 5e*


They have quite nice saves overall..

No, no they do not.

Most enemies have a +2 to +3 unless they are special monsters. That is not nice at all haha.

[AttilatheYeon]

Try opening up with Bane. It's a Cha save which most enemies have a low stat and no save with, and the ones who have good Cha stats and saves are usually pretty easy to spot. If it sticks, it gives a 1d4 penalty to both saves and attack. Which stacks well with VM.

[Ashrym]

No, no they do not.

Most enemies have a +2 to +3 unless they are special monsters. That is not nice at all haha.

I'm not sure where you are getting this from. Some have a +2 but not a lot and a higher than that is pretty uncommon. Many have no bonus and many have penalties instead of bonuses.


I love the flavor of vicious mockery.

I like the disadvantage effect.

I can live with the low damage.

I hate hate hate hate hate, how about 1/3rd of the time on average and very close to half the time when used against a major foe they make their save and I wasted my action.

I view the main effect of the spell as the disadvantage.

At any point the 1d4 of hit or miss damage is inconsequential. Has anyone else encountered this feeling or am I fairly alone in this?

I guess sacred flame has a similar mechanic but haven't seen my party cleric do it much.

What level are you? The save mechanic works the same as for other spells so if your cantrip is failing then other spells are failing for similar reasons.

Things to keep in mind:


Your DC is 8 plus your proficiency score plus your CHA modifier. At 1st level that would typically be 13 for a CHA focused bard, and that means 60% of the time someone with no bonus will fail while 40% of the time they will make the save. Spell DC's aren't strong at low levels yet.
A person should also keep in mind the disadvantage is on the next attack, so creatures with more than one attack don't have additional attacks hampered.
Make sure the DM isn't committing an error or changing the cantrip. It specifies that the creature needs to hear you and then specifies the creature does not need to understand you. I've seen DM's miss that part and think it's language dependent.
When you get to a higher level the save will increase to make it more reliable because the saving throws on most monsters still won't have proficiency or exceptionally high WIS scores while your DC increases with proficiency bonus and ability modifier. It doesn't take long to get to 4th level for that CHA and not far from +3 proficiency bonus for the 15 DC saves. Creatures will still save a lot but less frequently.


Short version: you aren't alone. Spell DC's just aren't that high at low levels and a good portion of creatures will save until your DC's do go up.

[rollingForInit]

I love the flavor of vicious mockery.

I like the disadvantage effect.

I can live with the low damage.

I hate hate hate hate hate, how about 1/3rd of the time on average and very close to half the time when used against a major foe they make their save and I wasted my action.

I view the main effect of the spell as the disadvantage.

At any point the 1d4 of hit or miss damage is inconsequential. Has anyone else encountered this feeling or am I fairly alone in this?

I guess sacred flame has a similar mechanic but haven't seen my party cleric do it much.

The same would be true for a regular attack cantrip, though. Or a regular weapon attack. If you don't hit it, you've "wasted" your action.

Let's take a level 5 Bard, and a level 5 Fighter. They have 18 Charisma/Strength respectively.

They both attack an Orc. The Bard casts Vicious Mockery. The Orc has +0 Wisdom modifier, and no proficiency. Your spell save DC would be 15. That means it has to roll 15 or less to avoid it. That's a 75% success rate against orcs.

The Fighter attacks with +7. The Orc has AC 13. That means the Fighter has to roll 6 or higher to succeed.

They are pretty comparable. Of course it'll vary between enemies depending on AC, save proficiencies and ability scores, but most of the time you're going to be hitting with Vicious Mockery about as often as the Fighter hits with his attacks. Of course, the Fighter gets multiple attacks, but he won't often hit all of them. When you do hit, you'll dish out everything at once.

Most attacks are all or nothing, except spells.

[Joe the Rat]

A developer Tweet (which I will try to find) agrees with you. The Disadvantage is the main feature of the spell - the damage is gravy. To the point where the Disadvantage is intended to happen no matter what, your target is saving against the damage, not the Disadvantage.

That would make it a far better cantrip. The catch on that is if that is also meant to apply to Frostbite, as they share the disadvantage element (and wording), though through different means (CON save, Cold based, slightly better damage).

[RickAllison]

Here is one tweet that I found:


@JeremyECrawford If a creature, i.e. construct, is immune to psychic damage, does Vicious Mockery still impose DIS on next att on a fail?

Vicious mockery: the second effect isn't reliant on the psychic damage getting through. #DnD https://twitter.com/TBiggs89/status/722813508539297792 …

@JeremyECrawford But the creature still has to fail its save to be at disadvantage, right?

@Ophannin117 Yes.

So according to Jeremy Crawford, they do need to fail the save.

[Mandragola]

Scaling is certainly an issue with VM. Not so much the damage, but the disadvantage only working on a single attack. You come across some monsters that get 3 attacks pretty early on, particularly stuff with multiattack, and VM is only effective against one of them - and ineffective against anything that doesn't require an attack roll.

So mocking a T-rex is pretty useful as it may mess up its bite, but mocking a dragon that has a load of attacks doesn't mean much - and mocking a wizard who then fireballs the party means nothing.

VM also requires a bit of cooperation from the rest of the party. If the party just sees it as damage then it's wasted. Example (at low level): you are fighting 4 mooks. You mock one mook, then the barbarian hits it and it dies. That's a waste of VM. If you were trying to kill things then you ought to be shooting your crossbow at them instead, but the party should leave stuff you've mocked alone - at least while their attacks aren't expected to hit.

So overall I think that VM ought to give a mook disadvantage on its next action, not just its next attack.

[R.Shackleford]

I'm not sure where you are getting this from. Some have a +2 but not a lot and a higher than that is pretty uncommon. Many have no bonus and many have penalties instead of bonuses.



What level are you? The save mechanic works the same as for other spells so if your cantrip is failing then other spells are failing for similar reasons.

Things to keep in mind:


Your DC is 8 plus your proficiency score plus your CHA modifier. At 1st level that would typically be 13 for a CHA focused bard, and that means 60% of the time someone with no bonus will fail while 40% of the time they will make the save. Spell DC's aren't strong at low levels yet.
A person should also keep in mind the disadvantage is on the next attack, so creatures with more than one attack don't have additional attacks hampered.
Make sure the DM isn't committing an error or changing the cantrip. It specifies that the creature needs to hear you and then specifies the creature does not need to understand you. I've seen DM's miss that part and think it's language dependent.
When you get to a higher level the save will increase to make it more reliable because the saving throws on most monsters still won't have proficiency or exceptionally high WIS scores while your DC increases with proficiency bonus and ability modifier. It doesn't take long to get to 4th level for that CHA and not far from +3 proficiency bonus for the 15 DC saves. Creatures will still save a lot but less frequently.


Short version: you aren't alone. Spell DC's just aren't that high at low levels and a good portion of creatures will save until your DC's do go up.

The ones that do have a bonus typically have, at most, a +2 or +3.

Yes some have higher, but unless they are special monsters, monsters have absolutely horrid saves in 5e. Cherrypicking saves is what makes casters pretty darn powerful.

[Ashrym]

The ones that do have a bonus typically have, at most, a +2 or +3.

Yes some have higher, but unless they are special monsters, monsters have absolutely horrid saves in 5e. Cherrypicking saves is what makes casters pretty darn powerful.

Cherry picking saves doesn't have the value a person might think when most monsters don't have a save proficiency and +3 is high for a save bonus against WIS spells when looking through the monster manual. A back up is nice but WIS is pretty solid as a main attack method.

As demonstrated in this discussion, the 5e DC method doesn't create high saves for some time. That's why for all the hooplah hold person has as a low level spell it doesn't actually last long until a person is high level. At 9th level the DC is 15 or 16 on the save (depending on if the spell caster took a feat) and anyone with no bonus at all will save 1 out of 4 or 5 rolls, making attacking the held person fast important.

Spell DC's don't become extremely reliable until around 12th or 13th level even for targeting weak saves with the DC's become 17 and 18, which still has a 1 out of 5 rolls saving at 12th level. The difference between targeting something with a WIS bonus or something without makes all of 10-15% difference in landing it. IE: 13th level vicious mockery against a WIS no bonus 85% chance for success, +2 WIS bonus 75% chance for success.

Targeting weak saves in itself is mostly useful against save proficiencies that are rare, and rarely also against very high ability scores. The OP is going to find that targets save fairly frequently even targeting weak saves if those saves are known for quite some time. Spell DC's are only high at high levels, and high level monsters do have better saving throws.

Targeting weak saves doesn't make spell casters strong. Targeting weak saves helps spell casters achieve relevance because if they don't their actions and spell slots can become almost as useless as facing something who just saves at will 3 times per day. Being a spell caster means doing poor damage, targets are saving quite a bit, weaker defenses or else giving up action economy and limited resources, hampered by failed ability checks, and doing little more than providing support to marital characters. The "casters are powerful" is a myth perpetuated on forums by white room scenarios that often fails to look at the high save rates in 5e until high levels and focuses on specific high level abilities or scenarios.

Fireball is another example of something people talk about but the examples are pretty much limited to kobolds because getting fireball at 5th level is usually a DC of 15, sometimes 14, so the save is made 1 out of 3 times against something with no bonus targeting weak saves (which isn't possible with fireball it's always DEX) and most monsters don't have low hit points before they even get to CR1 for 5th level parties to face. The means out of the 2 times in a day that spell caster can cast fireball it does 28 damage more often than not and 14 damage a lot. Unless the 5th level party is blowing up very low hit point creatures it actually kind of sucks. Pushing the "casters are powerful" trope is a pretty hard sell when discussing it with someone who knows how hit points and saving throws really scale on a limited resource. 13th+ levels is where spell casters have some opportunity because the saves finally became good while targeting weak saves (this is a requirement to be useful and not a method demonstrating a lot of power) and those high level spells are finally becoming available.

The OP should probably understand that it's true that enemies will make their saves often enough to be a pain.

[Shining Wrath]

The maths on saves:

You'll impose a DC of 8 + Spellcasting modifier + proficiency.

The monster will get a bonus of Ability mod and, rarely, proficiency.

Your spellcasting modifier is likely going to be higher than the target ability mod on the monster, although a lot of monsters do have decent Wisdom (anything that they want to be "perceptive").

Anyway, you'll probably have a DC of 13 or 14 at low levels, they'll get to add ~2, so they'll save with a 12 or better, about 45% of the time. Less often against minor monsters, more often against major ones. Your results seem about what I'd predict.

A fighter with an attack modifier of 5 or 6 hits 55% of the time against an AC of 14 or 15. You're getting similar results to a fighter smacking orcs.

[R.Shackleford]

Cherry picking saves doesn't have the value a person might think when most monsters don't have a save proficiency and +3 is high for a save bonus against WIS spells when looking through the monster manual. A back up is nice but WIS is pretty solid as a main attack method.

As demonstrated in this discussion, the 5e DC method doesn't create high saves for some time. That's why for all the hooplah hold person has as a low level spell it doesn't actually last long until a person is high level. At 9th level the DC is 15 or 16 on the save (depending on if the spell caster took a feat) and anyone with no bonus at all will save 1 out of 4 or 5 rolls, making attacking the held person fast important.

Spell DC's don't become extremely reliable until around 12th or 13th level even for targeting weak saves with the DC's become 17 and 18, which still has a 1 out of 5 rolls saving at 12th level. The difference between targeting something with a WIS bonus or something without makes all of 10-15% difference in landing it. IE: 13th level vicious mockery against a WIS no bonus 85% chance for success, +2 WIS bonus 75% chance for success.

Targeting weak saves in itself is mostly useful against save proficiencies that are rare, and rarely also against very high ability scores. The OP is going to find that targets save fairly frequently even targeting weak saves if those saves are known for quite some time. Spell DC's are only high at high levels, and high level monsters do have better saving throws.

Targeting weak saves doesn't make spell casters strong. Targeting weak saves helps spell casters achieve relevance because if they don't their actions and spell slots can become almost as useless as facing something who just saves at will 3 times per day. Being a spell caster means doing poor damage, targets are saving quite a bit, weaker defenses or else giving up action economy and limited resources, hampered by failed ability checks, and doing little more than providing support to marital characters. The "casters are powerful" is a myth perpetuated on forums by white room scenarios that often fails to look at the high save rates in 5e until high levels and focuses on specific high level abilities or scenarios.

Fireball is another example of something people talk about but the examples are pretty much limited to kobolds because getting fireball at 5th level is usually a DC of 15, sometimes 14, so the save is made 1 out of 3 times against something with no bonus targeting weak saves (which isn't possible with fireball it's always DEX) and most monsters don't have low hit points before they even get to CR1 for 5th level parties to face. The means out of the 2 times in a day that spell caster can cast fireball it does 28 damage more often than not and 14 damage a lot. Unless the 5th level party is blowing up very low hit point creatures it actually kind of sucks. Pushing the "casters are powerful" trope is a pretty hard sell when discussing it with someone who knows how hit points and saving throws really scale on a limited resource. 13th+ levels is where spell casters have some opportunity because the saves finally became good while targeting weak saves (this is a requirement to be useful and not a method demonstrating a lot of power) and those high level spells are finally becoming available.

The OP should probably understand that it's true that enemies will make their saves often enough to be a pain.

Cherrypicking saves is definately one of the most powerful things a caster can do.

That's exactly how you play GOD.

[Douche]

Here is one tweet that I found:



So according to Jeremy Crawford, they do need to fail the save.

That's a disappointment...

I believe he means that they can be immune to psychic damage, but they still have to fail the save, if you ask me... That was an extraordinarily strange way to phrase it.

Though tbh if a protection fighter can use his reaction to impose disadvantage, I think a bard should be able to use his action to do the same. Bards already have very little they can do in combat. My bard usually spends combat playing the bongos to use countercharm.

[RickAllison]

That's a disappointment...

I believe he means that they can be immune to psychic damage, but they still have to fail the save, if you ask me... That was an extraordinarily strange way to phrase it.

Though tbh if a protection fighter can use his reaction to impose disadvantage, I think a bard should be able to use his action to do the same. Bards already have very little they can do in combat. My bard usually spends combat playing the bongos to use countercharm.

His first tweet was definitely about the interaction with psychic-immune creatures. I only included that one for context (though still a good thing to keep in mind!). It is the second one that does seem to solidify that both the damage and the disadvantage are dependent on failing the save.

[eastmabl]

Much like every other damage-based cantrip in 5e, the effect is binary.


After your successful attack or failed save by the target, you do your damage + any additional effect.

After your failed attack or successful save by the target, you don't do damage or any additional effect.


Generally, half damage is the domain of spell slots. Unlike cantrips, these are a limited resource, and tend to be more powerful even after failure.

[RickAllison]

Much like every other damage-based cantrip in 5e, the effect is binary.


After your successful attack or failed save by the target, you do your damage + any additional effect.

After your failed attack or successful save by the target, you don't do damage or any additional effect.


Generally, half damage is the domain of spell slots. Unlike cantrips, these are a limited resource, and tend to be more powerful even after failure.

Although an interesting consequence of spells like these cantrips (Disintegrate comes to mind) is that they are not nullified by Evasion. Because they do not save for half damage, a Sacred Flame or Disintegrate will be just as painful for the rogue or monk as for someone without Evasion. Kind of a bonus for the all-Or-nothing spells

[Swooper]

Not sure why but my d4's roll low and my d8s roll 6,7 and 8.
I've also noticed this with my d4s. It's almost like they don't have any numbers above 4 on them! So annoying. :smalltongue:

[Ashrym]

That's a disappointment...

I believe he means that they can be immune to psychic damage, but they still have to fail the save, if you ask me... That was an extraordinarily strange way to phrase it.

Though tbh if a protection fighter can use his reaction to impose disadvantage, I think a bard should be able to use his action to do the same. Bards already have very little they can do in combat. My bard usually spends combat playing the bongos to use countercharm.

Did you really just state bards should get a fighter toy because bards don't have enough options? *blinks* *grins too*

I'm right up there with anyone claiming fighters have plenty of options. Give me any class and I do not get over-shadowed because I'll use ability checks and skills, take one or two out of combat feats, and if there's a way to improvise to take advantage of my environment I'll give that a go too but if I can do that on a champion or any other class / subclass I'm struggling to see how a bard (which I play a lot) would struggle with options.

5e saves require targeting low saves for best effect so it's not the advantage some might think it is, but there are a lot of options that don't requires saving throws at all, bards have other spells and they have skill oriented abilities, and cutting words is better than that fighter's protection ability (at least until dice run out). If you want your bard to have more combat options just taking a valor bard goes a long way towards that and battlemagic is pretty awesome.

If you want something else to do in battle, you could take a feat for better armor and you can use your action to aid another and help that person. You could switch to using a net for attacking and the target loses an action to get out of the net as another option. Don't just look at the spell list and consider that your choices in combat.