[3.5] Helpy With Gish Build

[Thurbane]

Hey all,

Looking with help for a build as follows:


CL 11th from the Sor/Wiz spell list
As close to full BAB as possible (without relying on spells like Divine Power or items like Skillful weapons)
Must be able to wear light (or preferably medium) armor
Will be becoming a Lich (so must be Humanoid)

Cheers - T

[Eldariel]

Well, there's always Battle Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Knight Phantom 10. 19 BAB, CL 19. Needs 3 feats to qualify for Spellsword though (medium armor prof, heavy armor prof, Militia/other ways to get all martial weapon profs), and being Battle Sorcerer, it offers **** for spells known. You could eat up second lost BAB and save those feats. Hm, Wizard 6/Swiftblade 9/Abjurant Champion 5 is quite good too, losing 3 BAB and 3 levels of casting but getting wonderful extraordinary Haste, which grants you an extra standard action, 50% miss chance for spells & attacks & freedom of movement in addition to the normal benefits.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Well, there's always Battle Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Knight Phantom 10.
Battle Sorcerer provides 3/4 base attack, you need six levels to qualify for spellsword. However, that doesn't get you all martial weapon proficiencies, and burning tons of feats is a bit wasteful on a gish. Throw in a level of crusader to spruce up both base attack and proficiencies, boost early survivability, and open up Jade Phoenix Mage.

There's the classic sorcadin: paladin 2/sorcerer 4/spellsword 1/abjurant champion 5/sacred fist 8. 18th-level casting and 16 base attack.
There's the basic swiftblade: wizard 6/swiftblade 9/spelldancer 1/abjurant champion 4. 17th-level casting and 16 base attack. I prefer Spelldancer 1 to Abjurant Champion 5, but YMMV - if Persistent Spell is too cheesy, or if you don't have flaws/magical location feats, just drop the Spelldancer level, and save yourself feats and book-related concussions.
A crusader 1/cleric 4/prestige paladin 2/ordained champion 5 with Practiced Spellcaster gets only 8th-level spellcasting, but at CL 12 (11 bab), with assorted goodies (maneuvers, Divine Grace, auto-quickened War domain spells, that sort of thing).

[Troacctid]

In my signature is a complete list of spellcasting prestige classes. Here are all the ones that offer full BAB while advancing sorcerer/wizard casting.



Class
Source
Min. Entry
Spells Per Day
L1
L2
L3
L4
L5
L6
L7
L8
L9
L10
L11
L12


Cyran Avenger
FN (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20050707b&page=2)
5
Any
-
1
1
1
1
X
X
X
X
X
X
X


Doomlord
PlH (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040706a&page=3)
7
Any
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
X
X


Dragon Slayer
Dr
5
Any
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
1
X
X


Drow Judicator
Und
6
Any
-
-
1
-
-
1
-
-
1
-
X
X


Gray Hand Enforcer
CSW
7
Any
-
1
1
1
1
X
X
X
X
X
X
X


Hexer
MW
7
Any
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
X
X


Impure Prince
MoE
5
Any
-
1
1
1
1
-
X
X
X
X
X
X


Platinum Knight
Dr
5
Any
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
X
X


Sacred Warder of Bahamut
Dr
15
Any
-
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1


Scion of Tem-Et-Nu
Sa
5
Any
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
X
X


Skylord
BE
7
Any
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
X
X


Thrall of Demogorgon
BV
4
Any
1
-
-
1
-
-
1
-
-
1
X
X


Thrall of Eltab
CR
5
Any
1
-
-
1
-
-
1
-
-
1
X
X


Thrall of Orcus
BV
4
Any
1
-
-
1
-
-
1
-
-
1
X
X


Tiger Mask
D300
5
Any
-
1
-
1
-
X
X
X
X
X
X
X


Topaz Guardian
LoM
5
Any
-
1
-
1
1
X
X
X
X
X
X
X


Unholy Ravager of Tiamat
Dr
15
Any
-
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1


Verdant Lord
MW
15
Any
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
X
X


Witch Hunter
OA
7
Any
-
1
-
-
1
-
1
-
1
1
X
X


Abjurant Champion
CM
5
Arcane
1
1
1
1
1
X
X
X
X
X
X
X


Bladesinger
CW
5
Arcane
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
X
X


Eldritch Knight
DMG (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/eldritchKnight.htm)
5
Arcane
-
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
X
X


Jade Phoenix Mage
ToB
6
Arcane
-
1
1
1
1
-
1
1
1
1
X
X


Knight Phantom
FN (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4)
5
Arcane
-
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
X
X


Spellsword
TB
5
Arcane
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
X
X


Swiftblade
Web (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327)
5
Arcane
-
1
1
-
1
1
-
1
1
1
X
X


Fochlucan Lyrist
CAd (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a&page=2)
10
Arcane/Divine
1/1
1/1
1/1
1/1
1/1
1/1
1/1
1/1
1/1
1/1
X
X


The only one that offers full casting, full BAB, and does not require any divine spellcasting is Abjurant Champion.

[Eldariel]

Battle Sorcerer provides 3/4 base attack, you need six levels to qualify for spellsword. However, that doesn't get you all martial weapon proficiencies, and burning tons of feats is a bit wasteful on a gish. Throw in a level of crusader to spruce up both base attack and proficiencies, boost early survivability, and open up Jade Phoenix Mage.

Hrrm, good point. The BAB-requirements did not line up like how I remembered. Yeah, a martial dip could theoretically work but sadly it would wreck the already-poor caster progression, particularly if you add even more lost caster levels in JPM. Literally the only selling point of Battle Sorcerer is that it's pretty easy to get near CL 20 while including some Gish-classes. Alright, yeah, that build just doesn't work without using some tricks that are probably not kosher here.

Well, a functional 19 BAB 9th level arcane spells build is achievable through Sublime Chord. Mystic Ranger 7/Warrior Skald 1/Knight Phantom 2/Sublime Chord 2/Knight Phantom +8. The easiest way to qualify for Sublime Chord here is to get Sword of the Arcane Order. Warrior Skald is in Races of Faerun, Sublime Chord in Complete Arcane, Sword of the Arcane Order in Champions of Valor and Knight Phantom (could just as easily be Eldritch Knight) in Five Nations.

EDIT: Oh yeah, Mystic Ranger is from Dragon 336.

[Extra Anchovies]

Honestly, Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 20 should be fine for most games. I recommend against it if you're going into a PrC, though; Stalwart and Battle Sorcerer only provide benefits when you take Sorcerer levels, but their drawbacks apply to your spellcasting progression across the entire build. Battle Sorcerer 6 into other stuff is getting +1 BAB for one less spell known and per day of each spell level, and Stalwart Sorcerer 6 into other stuff is losing a spell known of their highest level for +12 HP.

[Eisfalken]

Hey all,

Looking with help for a build as follows:


CL 11th from the Sor/Wiz spell list
As close to full BAB as possible (without relying on spells like Divine Power or items like Skillful weapons)
Must be able to wear light (or preferably medium) armor
Will be becoming a Lich (so must be Humanoid)

Cheers - T

First, you can't have full BAB and CL 20th, so you need to decide what you're going to sacrifice to get the other. We can hit 17 on both, but that's about it.

Second, the only medium armor you can really do is mithral githcraft breastplate with thistledown padding, and only after you get to spellsword. That will eliminate all ASF, which is basically your goal here. As a lich, you can't benefit from greater luminous armor (no Con score), and there's no chance of even mithral versions of heavy armor unless you sink some money into the twilight enchantment (which takes up a +1 effective cost on the armor).

Best option here is duskblade 2 / wizard 5 / spellsword 1 / abjurant champion 5. You can swap out wizard 5 with (specialist) 3 / master specialist 2, if you decide to specialize. You have a 13th level character with CL 11th, +10 BAB. Duskblade has some useful abilities there. If you do wizard, I'd sub out the familiar and Scribe Scroll for eidetic spellcaster, or sub out Scribe Scroll and wizard bonus feats in exchange for the fighter bonus feats. If you become a specialist, you'll have enough slots for Arcane Strike, which lets you burn spells you can't use against a given foe to get more attack/damage in melee.

Later levels should probably be in phantom knight (from the Eberron book Five Nations), or eldritch knight (from the DMG, if Eberron stuff is prohibited). By level 20, with either of those options, you should hit CL 17th (giving you 9th level spells) and +17 BAB.

[Deadline]

Well, technically Duskblade 11 fits your requirements, but that may not be what you are looking for, as it lacks a good number of spell options that other builds that have already been presented have.

[Eladrinblade]

Battle-Sorcerer/Eldritch Knight is probably the most fitting, maybe with a level of spell-sword

[Cerefel]

One personal favorite of mine looks something like this:

Full BAB 2/Bard 4/Abjurant Champion 3/Eldritch Knight 1/Sublime Chord 2/Abjurant Champion +2/Eldritch Knight +6

It looks like a bit of a train wreck written out like that, but it gets 2 known 9th level spells and 18 BAB by level 20, so I feel that it's worth looking a bit messy.

EDIT: I forgot to mention the ability to cast in light armor, or medium upon taking the Battle Caster feat in CArc

[A.A.King]

Paladin 2 / High One Warrior-Wizard 4 / Spellsword 1 / X
(With X probably being Abjurant Champion 5 / Eldritch Knight 10)

It doesn't give you the ability to cast in Light/Medium Armor, but Spellsword combined with High One Warrior-Wizard's 4th level ACF gives you 30% ASF Reduction which should be enough.

I realise that the synergy between Paladin and Wizard is a lot less than the synergy between Paladin and Sorcerer and that there is even less synergy between 'Paladin' and 'Becoming a Lich' but I thought it was atleast worth a mention seeing as you want to cast in Armor and it requires no specific feats to get that 30% ASP reduction

Your best bet for casting in Light Armor or Medium Armor is either Knight Phantom or Knight Phantom + Battle Caster
My Personal Favourite in that department is:
Sha'Ir 5 / Knight Phantom 10 / Abjurant Champion 5 (not necessarily taken in that order)
To get into Knight Phantom at level 6 requires a little bit of help from the DM because a Sha'Ir gets a 3rd Level Spell Slot at level 5 but no spells known meaning he can only use it to retrieve an Arcane Spell Unknown ('a spell he does not know but has seen the effects of and identified with a successful Spellcraft check'). However ignoring that little problem the fluff of Sha'ir is the easiest one to combine with Militia. "You were just a high skilled commoner trained in the arts of combat until one day you found a Genie" Very simple and very effective.

[Fizban]

I hate Ruathar, but it gets 2.25 BAB instead of 1.5 in it's 3 levels. Sorc 6/Ruathar 3 meets Abjurant Cheeselord with -2 BAB and -0 casting or spells known, about as good as you'll get anywhere else. If you don't actually want a 20 level build that's probably enough, if you do want a 20 level build then you'll have to lose a cl somewhere. Using FR's Militia feat to enter Eldritch Knight is generally the cheapest, though never the most effective.

As for armor, you don't need any class features to wear Thistledown Padded Githcraft Mithril Chain Shirt, but as mentioned above Medium armor is out. Layering that with Spellsword is the next easiest, followed by Battle Sorc with Armored Mage, followed by uh, Armored Mage Fighter? (which is garbage).

There's also Figher 1/Wiz 3/Ruathar 2/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/EK or Knight Phantom X, I think that's about right. Lose only -2 BAB and -2 casting all the way to 20th.

Green Star Adept would make for a funny lich, requiring magical adamantine bludgeoning weapons to break all DR, but if anyone's a martial adept they won't even care. It loses plenty of BAB and casting of course, but bosses can have whatever levels you want and classed NPCs are over CR'd to begin with.

[Thurbane]

If Wizard (or Sorcerer with skill points to blow) is in the mix, two things I should point out as working at my table (in regards to wearing armor):

1.) 2 ranks in Knowledge (History) specifically counts as an entry req in place of Bardic Knowledge for Urban Savant

2.) Battle Caster is ruled to boost the Urban Savant ability to medium armor (but this should be RAW anyway)

...ideally, I'd like the character to be able to cast in Medium armor with no ASF chance so it can wear Mithril Full Plate, for instance.

Armor proficiency without losing caster levels or blowing a lot of feats might be trickier. Maybe a dip in Dragon Slayer?

[Eldariel]

If Wizard (or Sorcerer with skill points to blow) is in the mix, two things I should point out as working at my table (in regards to wearing armor):

1.) 2 ranks in Knowledge (History) specifically counts as an entry req in place of Bardic Knowledge for Urban Savant

2.) Battle Caster is ruled to boost the Urban Savant ability to medium armor (but this should be RAW anyway)

...ideally, I'd like the character to be able to cast in Medium armor with no ASF chance so it can wear Mithril Full Plate, for instance.

Armor proficiency without losing caster levels or blowing a lot of feats might be trickier. Maybe a dip in Dragon Slayer?

Well, the Mystic Ranger build gets all armor proficiencies (alongside martial weapon proficiencies and Bardic Music) from Warrior Skald. As Sublime Chord gets light armor casting by default, it'd be pumped to medium by Battle Caster, though wearing medium armor would of course cost you the combat style feats from Ranger. But that shouldn't particularly problematic considering the volume of spellcasting you're slinging around. Note that Celestial Armor is a light armor that eclipses all other written armors in composite armor + dex bonus combination - therefore, if you just want to maximise the mundane defenses when absolutely no magic works, you might want to look that way (at least if the character has extreme Dex).