Separating stat bonus from race

[Laserlight]

I don't like the idea of barbarians gravitating to +STR races, rogues only coming from +DEX races, etc, and therefore I'm thinking to separate the stat bonus from the race. Something along the lines of "No race gets a stat bonus; instead, everyone can take a ASI or Feat at L1." Other than stats, racial benefits and proficiencies would remain the same. Any mechanical reason that it won't work?

(Yes, I know a dwarf archer or a half orc wizard is only going to be a +1DRM behind everyone else. I'm not asking for people to tell me "your players should be happy to play sub-optimal race/class combinations." I'm working with what they do, not what they should do).

[R.Shackleford]

I don't like the idea of barbarians gravitating to +STR races, rogues only coming from +DEX races, etc, and therefore I'm thinking to separate the stat bonus from the race. Something along the lines of "No race gets a stat bonus; instead, everyone can take a ASI or Feat at L1." Other than stats, racial benefits and proficiencies would remain the same. Any mechanical reason that it won't work?

(Yes, I know a dwarf archer or a half orc wizard is only going to be a +1DRM behind everyone else. I'm not asking for people to tell me "your players should be happy to play sub-optimal race/class combinations." I'm working with what they do, not what they should do).

My groups give each race +2/+1 or +1/+1/+1 as their racial choice.

At first level they also get a feat choice (no ASI) from the following list
Alert
Athlete
Actor
Dungeon Delver
Durable
Healer
Inspiring Leader
Keen Mind
Linguist
Observant
Tough


Works pretty well.

[bid]

Take a page from 13th age:
- +2 on either race stat
- +2 on either class stat (aka save prof)

[lperkins2]

If you're doing point-buy, it probably doesn't make any difference. Take elf, spend 2 fewer points on dex. If you're not doing point-buy, it may influence what race people pick for a character type, since it changes the possible stat distribution in a meaningful way.

[JNAProductions]

Take a page from 13th age:
- +2 on either race stat
- +2 on either class stat (aka save prof)

And when they overlap...?

[R.Shackleford]

And when they overlap...?

They don't.

Both are either/or (+2 to either str or con from race) and (+2 to either str or con from barbarian class)... They can't overlap.

[BurgerBeast]

They don't.

Both are either/or (+2 to either str or con from race) and (+2 to either str or con from barbarian class)... They can't overlap.

I think he meant, can they take +4 to str, in this case? (+2 from each)

[R.Shackleford]

I think he meant, can they take +4 to str, in this case? (+2 from each)

Using 13th Age rules, you can't put them in the same stat, they can't overlap.

[BoutsofInsanity]

So I like my races to feel distinctly different. That's part of the fun of having racial stats right? Elves are more flexible innately, Half-Orcs innately are stronger then humans. So I like to try and keep at least one of the priority stats in the racial profile.

But I recognize that this can limit in an optimization role the character. So if the Race doesn't have many options, specifically in the mental attributes, I allow swapping around a little bit. For example: Dragonborn in my game can either get +2 to Str, Con, or Cha. That should allow for the Dragonborn to have more variety in their roles.

But, that's kind of the point on the restriction right? A Half-Orc assassin, with a high Charisma and a lower strength is an oddity. The player has committed to roleplaying a charismatic rogue by taking a mechanical hit to his build for a roleplaying choice. That's phenomenal. That's the highest form of roleplaying at a table I can think of. Taking mechanically weaker options from an optimization standpoint to commit to whatever theme or character you are trying to play.

Further, you can break stereotypes this way too. Take a Dragonborn. Strength and Charisma are their primary ability bumps. You put your highest stat in Dex to be a thief. But you also have a good strength and charisma. So your Dragonborn may not be a ninja, but he can climb, bluff, and balance his way as a thief. He may not be specialized, but he can handle more tasks then a hyper focused elf thief would be.

TLDR: I think restrictions are good by forcing roleplay and commitment to characters and themes. But I recognize that this can restrict people in higher optimization games and limit characters. Which is why I typically allow with some backstory justification the ability to swap around mental attribute bonuses.



Dwarves

History Steeped in Blood: Any weapon or armor that has been forged by an ancestor or a powerful historically significant figure counts as magical for overcoming resistances
Dwarves have advantage on any ability checks that have to do with Dwarven History or culture
Have advantage on saves against Diseases



Duergar have the following Racial Characteristics instead of the Regular Dwarf ones

+2 Constitution
Advantage against Psionics and Resistance to Psychic Damage
Once per short rest may cast invisibility (Self)
Once per short rest may cast Enlarge Person (self)
Superior Darkvision: 120 Feet Darkvision
Light Blindness: have disadvantage on attack rolls and on Wisdom (Perception) checks lhal rely on sight when you, lhe largel of your attack, ar whatever you are trying to perceive is in direct sunlight.
Never Lost Underground: Duergar can always find their way underground and don’t get lost except due to magical interference
Duergar also gain advantage against charm effects
Duergar gain advantage against illusion effects
Base Speed of 25: Not reduced by heavy armor


Elf

Gain the Magic Initiate Feat



Halflings

Once per short rest: Halflings may choose an enemy and force them to reroll a d20 roll that targets them. They can use this after seeing the d20 roll but before the result is told


Humans

Variant Human is available
Will Power: May once per day reroll any save in response to seeing the number on the die


Dragonborn

Breath weapon is changed to: Bonus Action and add constitution to the damage once per short rest
Draconic traits: Advantage on Sleep and Paralysis saves
Darkvision 60
May take either +2 to Str, +2 to Charisma, or +2 to Con. Replaces normal racial bonuses


Gnome

Rock Gnomes gain proficiency in Arcana
Forest Gnomes gain proficiency in Nature


Half-Elves
Already so good

Half-Orcs

Retaliation: The first time a half orc is dropped below ½ hp and ¼ hp and 0, They may make as a reaction a free attack as a reaction.


Tieflings

Racial Characteristics: Either a +2 to Dexterity or +2 to Charisma, and then +1 to intelligence or +1 to Dexterity or +1 to Charisma. May not stack them.
Names are always indicative of their inner nature. Names can change.
Once per Short Rest a tiefling may add her half her level to damage dealt as fire damage during that Round


Aismar

+2 to Wisdom
+1 to Any other Stat
Resistance to Necrotic
Darkvision
Light Cantrip
Proficiency in Insight
Speed 30
Medium
Names are always indicative of their inner nature. Names can change
Once per short rest may as a reaction gain temporary hp for one turn = LVL+Wis+2d10
+1 to any other stat


Dhamphir

Necrotic Damage Heals them
+1 to Str
+1 to Two stats (one may be strength)
Darkvision 60ft
May spend a hit die by consuming blood of a creature that died last round. Takes a Bonus Action
Advantage on Saves against Disease
May not be healed by positive energy



Revenant

Any Stat bonuses are the same as your base race
Die Hard: When reduced to 0 HP you keep fighting. The next time you take damage, you take double of the value dealt. (In Playtest)
Resistant to Necrotic Damage
Advantage against all Necromatic or Death spells and effects
Advantage on saves against Diseases
See in darkness: Can see just fine in light or darkness. Does not work through magical darkness.
Raven Queens Own Luck: Once per Long Rest: May allow an ally a reroll


Some Character Creation Rules


Everyone gains a bonus feat at first level
At 8th level everyone gains the bonus to stats and a feat
At 16th level everyone gains the bonus to stats and a feat
You may always take half on Hp rolls

[RickAllison]

There is some precedent from WotC for allowing some racial ability bonuses to transfer. The Minotaur, from Waterborne UA, has +1 Str but it's second +1 can be applied to Str, Wis, or Int depending on what the user focuses on. I wouldn't call it much of a stretch to apply this same philosophy to other races as well.

[Laserlight]

TLDR: I think restrictions are good by forcing roleplay and commitment to characters and themes.

Note the part in the original post about "I'm not asking for people to tell me 'your players should be happy to play sub-optimal race/class combinations.'":smallsmile:

[DMBlackhart]

Note the part in the original post about "I'm not asking for people to tell me 'your players should be happy to play sub-optimal race/class combinations.'":smallsmile:

Indeed, staying on topic allow me to provide my 2 pents.

Personally, I prefer rolling (3d6 in a straight line in fact) but have thus far ran into a number of situations in my time DMing and playing.

Honestly, what I can say without a doubt, is the attributes REALLY don't matter beyond requirements for special classes, abilities, etc.

otherwise, yes a difference of about 2-3 points can make a difference, but not a significant one. So honestly messing with the points provided from race and class won't "break" anything that I can tell.

I unno, just go with it man. I really don't see it being an issue. Can provide some REALLY fun character concepts as well. More power to you mate!

[R.Shackleford]

Note the part in the original post about "I'm not asking for people to tell me 'your players should be happy to play sub-optimal race/class combinations.'":smallsmile:

Two points for the mentality of specific race/ability scores.

Why punish players for wanting to role play?

Why would a Halfling who is ugly as homemade sin and has a nasty personality get a bonus to Cha when they spent all their time lifting weights and ignoring social situations?

[Slipperychicken]

One way is to replace it with racial stat minimums. As in, you simply can't pick orc without a strength 10 or higher, can't be an elf without dex 12 or higher, and so on. The exact numbers are a matter of personal taste, but they get the idea across.

[MrFahrenheit]

If you're tackling ability optimization by class, what you say makes sense. But consider a few outside the box examples:
1. Stout halfling barbarian with +2 dex/+ 1 con. Go unarmored, and pump the physical stats with every ASI, though prioritizing dex and con. By level 20, your top three stats will be 22/20/24.
2. Lightfoot halfling divination wizard 4 with the lucky feat. Talk about dice control...
3. Hill dwarf (insert class that doesn't give wis saving throw proficiency here) X. With this you can dump wis, optimize con and eventually take wis resilient.
4. Half Orc lore bard. Hold person-free grapple round one. Fly dash round two. Expertise in athletics just in case. Fly some more then drop round three. Don't want the bad guy wriggling free before terminal height is reached.
None of these involve races with primary stat boosts (can make an exception for the hill dwarf if you really want to), yet are pretty powerful in their own right.

[Magic Myrmidon]

I've considered the same idea myself. Personally, I'd probably keep the stat offering for each race, but let players reassign them. As in, a half elf has a floating +2/+1/+1, and mountain dwarf has a floating +2/+2, a wood elf gets a floating +2/+1. One problem is humans in this case (can't reassign plus ones when you get a +1 in every stat anyway), but allowing variant human fixes that a little bit. Probably restrict some of the feats as earlier suggested.

I'd recommend keeping the total number bonus for each race since the abilities of each race do vary in viability. A mountain dwarf fighter gets nothing out of his race choice if he can choose his stats anyway.

[eastmabl]

4. Half Orc lore bard. Hold person-free grapple round one. Fly dash round two. Expertise in athletics just in case. Fly some more then drop round three. Don't want the bad guy wriggling free before terminal height is reached.

Round 3 - BBEG makes his attack against your bard and deals damage. Bard fails Con saving throw and loses concentration.

Both your bard and BBEG fall to your death.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I highly support removing racial ability modifiers. You don't even necessarily need to grant replacement modifiers; just fiddle with the point-buy or rolling method to trend a little higher. (Say, 32 point buy, with a 16 costing 11 points)


If you're doing point-buy, it probably doesn't make any difference. Take elf, spend 2 fewer points on dex. If you're not doing point-buy, it may influence what race people pick for a character type, since it changes the possible stat distribution in a meaningful way.
My experience is the contrary-- it's actually more important in point-buy, since it's the only way to max out your key stats. If you roll well you can afford to not care because you still have 16s in your main stats.

[JellyPooga]

Why would a Halfling who is ugly as homemade sin and has a nasty personality get a bonus to Cha when they spent all their time lifting weights and ignoring social situations?

Because even the ugliest, foul-mouthed, bumbling klutz of a Halfling is still, on average, more charismatic and dexterous than your average Human or Half-Orc?

It doesn't matter how long a Halfling spends down the gym, he's not going to match someone with greater mass as far as strength is concerned. Sure, 5ed allows for it to be the case eventually, but it's unusual because Halflings have a racial predisposition towards Dex, Con and Cha, as opposed to Str. It's just not their forte, but it is the forte of Half-Orcs and Dragonborn. Why would a Halfling get a racial bonus to Strength? It doesn't make any sense to give a floating bonus to everyone without losing much of the identity of the races. That's rather the point of having different races. If you want everyone to start from a blank slate, play an all-Human (or all-Halfling or whatever) game.

If the game was more like GURPS, i.e. entirely modular, then I could see enforcing minimums or reduced cost for purchasing their racially favoured abilities, or something, but when your Racial "package" is by-and-large fixed, I wouldn't want to play at a table that had Ogre-strength Halflings at level 1.

[Grod_The_Giant]

It doesn't make any sense to give a floating bonus to everyone without losing much of the identity of the races. That's rather the point of having different races. If you want everyone to start from a blank slate, play an all-Human (or all-Halfling or whatever) game.
Which would be true if the ability modifier was an integral part of the race's identity, which it... really isn't, from all but an optimization point of view. We know that Halflings are agile, because they get Halfling Nimbleness. We know that Half-Orcs are brutish and tough, because they get Relentless Endurance and Savage Attacks. A (at least semi) unique ability is always a better identifier than a numerical bonus that can, eventually, be matched by anyone. What was that quote?

Active Abilities are great because you - the player - are demonstrating your Dwarvenness or Elfishness. You're not passively a dwarf, you're actively dwarfing your way through obstacles.

[JellyPooga]

Which would be true if the ability modifier was an integral part of the race's identity, which it... really isn't, from all but an optimization point of view. We know that Halflings are agile, because they get Halfling Nimbleness. We know that Half-Orcs are brutish and tough, because they get Relentless Endurance and Savage Attacks. A (at least semi) unique ability is always a better identifier than a numerical bonus that can, eventually, be matched by anyone. What was that quote?

I agree that active racial abilities are better than passive ones, but racial stat mods do contribute to that races identity. If they didn't, we wouldn't be here discussing the faults of a system in which you rarely see a Half-Orc Warlock or a Dragonborn Wizard. It's not Relentless Endurance that discourages Half-Orcs from being Warlocks, it's that they have nothing to encourage them to take up that profession. Changing Ability Score mods so that Half-Orcs can get an optional bonus to Charisma is not an answer, because at the end of the day, Half-Orcs aren't supposed to have a racial inclination for good looks and a silver tongue.

If you want to go down this road at all, you may as well go the whole hog and remove Ability Scores all together. After all, between Racial, Class and Background abilities, Skill, Tool and Weapon/Armour proficiencies and the entire spellcasting section, there's more than enough tools at hand that the function of Ability Scores is...minor at best. With the hard cap of 20 on any Ability Score, anyone can eventually match any other character and the difference between a Dex Fighter and a Str Fighter is minimal at best...so why bother with them at all?

So, this would be my fix;

1) Scrap Ability Scores. Gone. Nothing left except Saving Throw proficiencies.
2) Give each Race an appropriate bonus Saving Throw Proficiency (Dex for Elves, Str for Half-Orcs, etc.).
3) Allow proficiencies to stack (e.g. a Half-Orc Fighter would effectively have Expertise in Str Saves).
4) Replace all instances of "[Ability Score] Check" with "[Ability Score] Save".
5) Give all Classes Jack of All Trades at level 2. Bards now get a Class Feature called Master of None as well, which adds half your Proficiency bonus to all Ability Score Saves (which now includes all Skill checks), even if you're already proficient.
6) Enjoy not having to worry about Ability Scores and their bias any more.

It's not perfect and probably needs some work, but for something off the top of my head, it'll do :smallbiggrin:

[Grod_The_Giant]

Oh, I fully agree that 5e really should have given up on the whole Ability Score thing. But while it exists... Yes, a Half-Orc has little to recommend Sorcerer, even if you let him get a Cha boost. You're still playing against type and making a suboptimal choice (potentially), you're just not falling behind on the math.

[R.Shackleford]

Oh, I fully agree that 5e really should have given up on the whole Ability Score thing. But while it exists... Yes, a Half-Orc has little to recommend Sorcerer, even if you let him get a Cha boost. You're still playing against type and making a suboptimal choice (potentially), you're just not falling behind on the math.

Half Orc Fighter (or Barbarian) 3/Wild Blood Sorcerer X makes a really cool gish.

Used with the alternative +2/+1 racial boost rules.

[MrFahrenheit]

Round 3 - BBEG makes his attack against your bard and deals damage. Bard fails Con saving throw and loses concentration.

Both your bard and BBEG fall to your death.

No risk, no reward!

More on topic...if you're going to remove ability bonuses/replace them with floating ones, I'd have to agree with others who say it still doesn't work too well based off other features.

[BW022]

I don't like the idea of barbarians gravitating to +STR races, rogues only coming from +DEX races, etc, and therefore I'm thinking to separate the stat bonus from the race. Something along the lines of "No race gets a stat bonus; instead, everyone can take a ASI or Feat at L1." Other than stats, racial benefits and proficiencies would remain the same. Any mechanical reason that it won't work?


What is the purpose of this? Why does this bother you and who cares if it does?

D&D has tried all sorts of methods to class restrict. 1E and 2E had all sorts of level limits by race and ability score. 3E has favorite classes. You can also add all sorts of penalties to discourage playing certain race/class combinations -- training requirements, XP bonuses or penalties for playing those, alignment restrictions, etc. You could also set a limit maximum starting abilities scores below the point-buy maximum + racial bonus. I.e. the maximum score you can start with is 15 after racial bonuses. You can use the setting to impose penalties on certain races/classes via social constructs, bad reactions, bounties, etc.. Or you can just ban certain class/race combinations.

The idea of making all races the same because you don't like something isn't likely going to fly with most players. It flies in the face of what most races in most settings are. Elves are more dexterous, dwarves tougher, half-orcs stronger, etc. Nor does making all races the same still mean that any given group of players is not going to play the race/class combos which you don't like.

It would seem to me to be more honest just to ban the race/class combos you don't like. They way races aren't all the same and have their traditional differences, you have no chance players will play races/classes you don't like, and you are honest about this.

[Gastronomie]

I already do this and it's served me well. My players enjoy getting to be able to play race-and-class combinations that they wouldn't have been able to do as well by written rules.

It probably depends on the table, but at least at mine, it works.

[Safety Sword]

If you remove the racial stats and allow them to float then you're almost forcing everyone to optimise. Everyone will be forced to spend their floating points on the primary stats for their class to keep up with everyone else doing the same.

All you're really doing is shifting the baseline for primary stats and making secondary stats even worse.

That's not exactly the best situation to be in either...

[bid]

If you remove the racial stats and allow them to float then you're almost forcing everyone to optimise. Everyone will be forced to spend their floating points on the primary stats for their class to keep up with everyone else doing the same.
So everyone will have 16 in their main stat, 16 in their secondary stat. Race will lose its impact there.

Not necessarily bad though.

[R.Shackleford]

If you remove the racial stats and allow them to float then you're almost forcing everyone to optimise. Everyone will be forced to spend their floating points on the primary stats for their class to keep up with everyone else doing the same.

All you're really doing is shifting the baseline for primary stats and making secondary stats even worse.

That's not exactly the best situation to be in either...

This is exactly not what is happening.

You aren't forcing anyone to optimize, what you are doing is allowing for new combinations of races and classes for people who wouldn't typically use those combinations due to whatever reaason. Some people may not want to have to optimize to make up for their race not supporting their class. Some people just may not think Halfling Barbarian due to their racial mods not lining up all that well.

Giving a floating +2/+1 in no way shape or form makes their secondary stat worse (except dwarves I guess as they get +2/+2).

What this does is allows for that gnomish barbarian to put that +2 into strength and not be punished mechanically for making a roleplaying decision. The Half Orc Fighter gets their scores lined up but because they chose gnome they get a big ole troll laugh to the face? Nah.

[Laserlight]

This is exactly not what is happening.

You aren't forcing anyone to optimize, what you are doing is allowing for new combinations of races and classes for people who wouldn't typically use those combinations due to whatever reaason.

This.

And for those saying "But it takes away from the racial flavor": I'm only applying this to PCs, who are by definition exceptional people. NPC halflings will be quick and cute as usual. If your character is going to rebel against a stereotype, you have to have a stereotype to rebel against. :smallsmile:

[Safety Sword]

The point I was trying to make is that now instead of stats being assigned to a race you've basically assigned them to a class.

I know players that will play a Half-Orc Wizard. I don't know anyone who will voluntarily assign stats away from INT if the choice is given to their Wizard.

This is fine and dandy. Maybe classes is where the stat boost should be anyway?

[MrFahrenheit]

The point I was trying to make is that now instead of stats being assigned to a race you've basically assigned them to a class.

I know players that will play a Half-Orc Wizard. I don't know anyone who will voluntarily assign stats away from INT if the choice is given to their Wizard.

This is fine and dandy. Maybe classes is where the stat boost should be anyway?

All it requires as currently stands (without the floating bonuses) is a little outside the box thinking...
Half Orc paladin 2/conjurer 10: assuming 27 point buy, stats at CL 12 are 18/8/16/13/8/13 + PAM. Summon minions to be your personal front line with fifth level and above spell slots, then attack + bonus attack (with butt end of weapon) each turn, using fourth level and below slots to smite. Never worry about losing concentration either.
If you're playing single classed only...lose the paladin levels and switch to a mountain dwarf.

[Kornaki]

This is fine and dandy. Maybe classes is where the stat boost should be anyway?

Isn't that what point buy is for?

[R.Shackleford]

This.

And for those saying "But it takes away from the racial flavor": I'm only applying this to PCs, who are by definition exceptional people. NPC halflings will be quick and cute as usual. If your character is going to rebel against a stereotype, you have to have a stereotype to rebel against. :smallsmile:

Anyone who thinks ability scores is what makes a race distinct or flavorful...

Take the elf and give them just the +2 Dex/+1 Int and not other features

Take an elf and give them no racial ability scores but give them their other features.

Which one is more elf?

I argue that the one with Fey Ancestry, Keen Senses, and gaining a cantrip from subrace is more flavorful and I really wouldn't be able to pick the other one out of a line up of class/race combinations (as I won't know who got what it would just be a fighter, wizard, cleric, and rogue).