Breaking Sap Master + Sap Adapt - What will work and what will not

[thecrimsondawn]

I will leave those who dont know of these two amazing feats to google it themselves, but for everyone else, I will also include a dash of path of war for a little extra damage.

So the first thing I noticed was "You roll your sneak attack damage twice" It does not say doubles your sneak attack damage. Im willing to bet there was some long in depth topic about this somewhere that I just missed, but if it counts as having twice as many sneak attack dice, this works. If it does not, then this is quite a bit weaker.

Scout is a great option. It gives you the ability to sneak attack as a charge or after you move 10 feet in a round. Mobility added onto this is just plain wrong.

Unchained rogue really shines. Debilitating injury is a very strong debuff of your choice and you can get a second one at level 10+. If you focus on dirty trick to blind with gloves of skilled maneuver and TWF chain, you will quite easily be able to dish out over a hundred d6's if all your attacks hit.

Crippling strike deals 2 points of STR damage on every hit that you do sneak attack damage on. There is a ninja trick Pressure Points that deals 1 more STR damage on every sneak attack. While this is mid to late game, 3 points of STR damage every attack, with 2main/2off hand attacks +haste, can translate to one of the most horrifying debuffers I have ever seen.

Ive never noticed Emboldening Strike rogue talent before, but you gain a bonus to saves for every 2 sneak attack dice you roll. Since you double your sneak attack dice already, that translates to your base sneak attack dice as a bonus to saves every round you can sneak attack (and that should be most of the time)

Bleeding Attack rogue talent causes your target to take the number of sneak attack dice you rolled in bleed damage at the start of each of their turns. It does not stack, so its quite often overlooked, but when all of a sudden, this turns out to be 20 or more bleed damage a turn, its a rather big deal. Shut down any healers early, and its gg for the foes you fight.

Path of war has a path called Steel Serpent. A level 5 stance adds a flat 3d6 sneak attack damage. That translates to an additional 6d6+6 non lethal damage with 6 more bleed at the start of their turn above what you would normally give them.
There is also a level 6 boost if I am not mistaken that gives all your attacks +2d6 additional sneak attack damage dice as well. Since many games do not allow for PoW content, I will leave this out of the final calculations, but I wanted to toss this here anyway.


So how much damage are we talking about here? For this we will assume a +6 mod to damage, TWF chain, haste. and a full attack at level 10.

Bast sneak attack damage at level 10 is 5d6
5d6 =10d6 non lethal +10 (from sap master+sap adapt) [10d6+10]
weapon damage (if sap) is 1d6+(5?) (can you enchant a sap? I dont see why you cant) +6ability mod [1d6+11]
This translates to a total of 11d6+21 non lethal damage, +10bleed, and up to 3STR damage on your FIRST attack. That is an average of 64 damage.
...by level 10 you could have 2 main hand attacks, 2 off hand attacks, and one haste attack. If all attacks hit (and if you apply debilitating injury and are hitting flat foot ac, they should most of the time), that is an average of 270 non lethal, oh +10 bleed on their turn....at level 10.


So I have posted everything that I have found so far and are working with. If there are any errors, please let me know, as well as any other ways to make this even more frightening.

[Calthropstu]

This would work great with a vow of peace and in a city setting where almost all your fights are going to be humanoids you can knock senseless.

Abysmal build for dungeon crawling. Undead, elementals, constructs, oozes, anything with regeneration, and a myriad of other creatures will all be almost completely immune to your primary weapon. Check that, completely immune. A primary city setting? Sure. Anything else? Terrible idea.

[Extra Anchovies]

Abysmal build for dungeon crawling. Undead, elementals, constructs, oozes, anything with regeneration, and a myriad of other creatures will all be almost completely immune to your primary weapon. Check that, completely immune. A primary city setting? Sure. Anything else? Terrible idea.

I have to agree with Calthropstu here. Of particular note is that both Sap Adept and Sap Master require you to be using a sap to deal nonlethal sneak attack damage, so they can't be combined with abilities that allow you to deal lethal damage with saps (if such abilities exist), and Sap Master only functions if the target is flat-footed, not otherwise Dex-denied or flanked.

Personal opinion? This trick is for saps.

...

No? I'll show myself out.

[thecrimsondawn]

I have to agree with Calthropstu here. Of particular note is that both Sap Adept and Sap Master require you to be using a sap to deal nonlethal sneak attack damage, so they can't be combined with abilities that allow you to deal lethal damage with saps (if such abilities exist), and Sap Master only functions if the target is flat-footed, not otherwise Dex-denied or flanked.

Personal opinion? This trick is for saps.

...

No? I'll show myself out.

This is not 100% true. Allow me to explain.
Sap master and sap adapt only require a bludgeoning weapon. It says nothing about only a sap. While you can use other weapons, I can only find that unarmed strikes could be viable as an alt option. Since you can choose to do lethal or non lethal without a -4pen, as well as unlock quite a few style feats, or enter an unarmed focused build via dips, it can be made to be useful.
2: Just as you can take a -4pen to make a lethal attack do non lethal with a weapon, the reverse also applies. If you REALLY wanted to, you could take a -4 to hit to cause your sap to do lethal. Again, this is not the best option, but if you had a really upgraded sap, it may be a better option then...
3: always have more then 1 weapon. For this build I would have 4 saps, (2 main for duel wielding, 2 spare) 2 daggers, and a crossbow or other ranged weapon. This build focuses on doing a vast amount of extra non lethal damage, but it does NOT take away from your core ability as a rogue to simply do a ton of damage. Unlike knife master, your sneak attack dice do not change for using a lethal weapon, and your bleeding attack, stat damage, debilitating injury, all that still works and goes off. Mind you things immune to non lethal are also immune to stat damage and bleed most of the time, so you will often only have some sneak attack dice on a single or well placed full attack in these cases. By no means are you useless just because you go lethal.

You do bring up a valid point about flat footed tho. I overlooked that. Its easy to deny dex, but flat foot is a bit more rough. If using path of war, Steel Serpent style feat chain from the new PoW-Expanded is the first good example of a way I found around that. I will keep looking for more 1st party options as well.

[Kurald Galain]

Abysmal build for dungeon crawling. Undead, elementals, constructs, oozes, anything with regeneration, and a myriad of other creatures will all be almost completely immune to your primary weapon.

Oh, it's not that bad. Carry regular (lethal) weapons to deal with undead, and they'll still eat regular sneak attack damage. Carry an adamantine backup weapon to deal with constructs. A competent striker can outpace regeneration or fast healing, and there's really not a "myriad" of other creatures that are immune to sneak or to nonlethal.

Yes, elementals and oozes are specifically problematic for rogues, but almost every class has a monster that's specifically strong against them. They're not nearly as common as undead. It's normal for your character to be stronger in some situations and weaker in others.

[Calthropstu]

Oh, it's not that bad. Carry regular (lethal) weapons to deal with undead, and they'll still eat regular sneak attack damage. Carry an adamantine backup weapon to deal with constructs. A competent striker can outpace regeneration or fast healing, and there's really not a "myriad" of other creatures that are immune to sneak or to nonlethal.

Yes, elementals and oozes are specifically problematic for rogues, but almost every class has a monster that's specifically strong against them. They're not nearly as common as undead. It's normal for your character to be stronger in some situations and weaker in others.

Maybe, but with a bunch of feats geared towards the nonlethal, and feats and tricks being a major part of the build and so many resources spread out, you would be about half as effective as a standard rogue in any situation you couldn't deal nonlethal. If you are keeping large numbers of "backup weapons" to deal with all the threats your saps can't take care of, either these backup weapons are going to be absolute crap, or your primary weapons are going to be seriously penalized as you have to divert more and more resources to your "backup weapons."

As such, my original comment applies. Great in a primarily city setting. Crap anywhere else.

[thecrimsondawn]

Maybe, but with a bunch of feats geared towards the nonlethal, and feats and tricks being a major part of the build and so many resources spread out, you would be about half as effective as a standard rogue in any situation you couldn't deal nonlethal. If you are keeping large numbers of "backup weapons" to deal with all the threats your saps can't take care of, either these backup weapons are going to be absolute crap, or your primary weapons are going to be seriously penalized as you have to divert more and more resources to your "backup weapons."

As such, my original comment applies. Great in a primarily city setting. Crap anywhere else.

I will agree in a city setting they would be better, but I dont agree on your other points. Like it was said, every class has some things that are just a pain to deal with, but you can easily take care of those with little to no money. You want +5 weapons for the bonus to hit more then damage since most of your damage is sneak attack anyway. Its not "a lot" of feats geared towards non lethal combat. The bleed one is lethal damage and works on both non lethal and lethal attacks. the ability damage works on both as well. Really the only non lethal feats you are looking at is 2 - sap master, and sap adapt. Everything else is kinda open ended. Path of war aside, you have a great many rogue tricks/ninja tricks to choose from and you can play this build on nearly any rogue you make.
It does not matter what you fight, there is always a way around it, and its a way you should know since rogues have so many skill points, there is little they should not be ready for. :3

[Fouredged Sword]

I have been playing around with a build for this.

Half Orc Skulking Slayer scout rogue 1 / Fighter 1 / Skulking Slayer scout rogue 18. The fighter level is to get to cleave by 3nd level so you can also get surprise follow through at 3rd level alongside cleave. Getting d8's for sneak attack damage is really nice when you start rolling them multiple times.

The idea is you move 10 ft into a position that you threaten as many targets as you can cleave. The first target is flatfooted due to scout and eats a double damage sneak attack. The rest of the targets are denied dex to AC and get a normal sneak attack.

As a bonus you get to charge into combat yelling things like "SNEAK ATTACK!" and "FLANKING FROM THE INSIDE!" while running around inside combat spinning like a top with a greatclub held at full extension.

If the target has a high AC you can replace your sneak attack with a dirty trick or steal maneuver. Clerics get holy symbols swiped, wizards and others get their ears boxed to deafen them, rogues get their jibblies kicked to sicken them, ect. You get to be a whirling dervish of chaos.


And at the end of the day you still can power attack with a two handed weapon in case you run into things that ignore sneak attacks.

[thecrimsondawn]

I have been playing around with a build for this.

Half Orc Skulking Slayer scout rogue 1 / Fighter 1 / Skulking Slayer scout rogue 18. The fighter level is to get to cleave by 3nd level so you can also get surprise follow through at 3rd level alongside cleave. Getting d8's for sneak attack damage is really nice when you start rolling them multiple times.

The idea is you move 10 ft into a position that you threaten as many targets as you can cleave. The first target is flatfooted due to scout and eats a double damage sneak attack. The rest of the targets are denied dex to AC and get a normal sneak attack.

As a bonus you get to charge into combat yelling things like "SNEAK ATTACK!" and "FLANKING FROM THE INSIDE!" while running around inside combat spinning like a top with a greatclub held at full extension.

If the target has a high AC you can replace your sneak attack with a dirty trick or steal maneuver. Clerics get holy symbols swiped, wizards and others get their ears boxed to deafen them, rogues get their jibblies kicked to sicken them, ect. You get to be a whirling dervish of chaos.


And at the end of the day you still can power attack with a two handed weapon in case you run into things that ignore sneak attacks.




This works well with normal rogue, but have you tried this same build with unchained? It says at the bottom nearly every archetype works with unchained updates of the classes, so long as they have the right abilities to replace. Rogue only gets a buff all around. The ability of note is debilitating injury. You can choose one of 3 options, and for this example we will use AC. You hit them with a sneak attack (easy with scout) and they take -2, -2more vs you to ac. If you focus on TWF, dirty trick (from rogue tricks) and trip (from normal feats) If you trip them, its -4 more ac. If you make them blind, that is -2 to ac.
The idea is to be all rogue like and get your ambush on, either surprise round, or full attack after combat has started. After you hit them once with sneak attack, a trip, or a dirty trick to blind them, its game over for that person. Its all downhill from there. Those AC penalties also hit their CMD as well. When blind, you can stealth at will for free as they cant see you (if you need to), if they are tripped, they really cant run away from you. If they get up while blind, that is a free sneak attack. You really just shut them down.
Later level it gets even more nasty. By around level 10-12, you have 2 main hand attacks and 2 off hand attacks from ITWF. If you take crippling strike and the ninja pressure points trick (or whatever its name is, too lazy to look it up), that is also 3STR damage every time you sneak attack as well that stacks. Its one of the best debuff classes I have ever had the pleasure of playing, but like all classes, it does have some harsh counters. I often deal with those with the help of path of war tho :3

[Fouredged Sword]

This works well with normal rogue, but have you tried this same build with unchained? It says at the bottom nearly every archetype works with unchained updates of the classes, so long as they have the right abilities to replace. Rogue only gets a buff all around. The ability of note is debilitating injury. You can choose one of 3 options, and for this example we will use AC. You hit them with a sneak attack (easy with scout) and they take -2, -2more vs you to ac. If you focus on TWF, dirty trick (from rogue tricks) and trip (from normal feats) If you trip them, its -4 more ac. If you make them blind, that is -2 to ac.
The idea is to be all rogue like and get your ambush on, either surprise round, or full attack after combat has started. After you hit them once with sneak attack, a trip, or a dirty trick to blind them, its game over for that person. Its all downhill from there. Those AC penalties also hit their CMD as well. When blind, you can stealth at will for free as they cant see you (if you need to), if they are tripped, they really cant run away from you. If they get up while blind, that is a free sneak attack. You really just shut them down.
Later level it gets even more nasty. By around level 10-12, you have 2 main hand attacks and 2 off hand attacks from ITWF. If you take crippling strike and the ninja pressure points trick (or whatever its name is, too lazy to look it up), that is also 3STR damage every time you sneak attack as well that stacks. Its one of the best debuff classes I have ever had the pleasure of playing, but like all classes, it does have some harsh counters. I often deal with those with the help of path of war tho :3

I have never messed with the Unchained classes. This build focuses on the cleave chain of feats so TWFing is useless. Most rogues lose most of their DPS when forced to move, this build requires movement to maximize your DPS. You lack a huge alpha strike a TWFing rogue can pull off but you have a much easier time dealing with groups as you can make a good attack on everything you can hit and you ALWAYS sneak attack regardless of stealth or flanking. The best part of this is that the build is designed to never require stealth. Stealth is nice, if you can get it, but as long as you can move you can render your target flat footed with no chance of failure outside of being immune to flat footed. You end up playing something like a very aggressive low HP, highly skilled fighter rather than a rogue.