Patching infinity holes

[weckar]

So here's an interesting thing. Short of just banning a faultily written rule, how does a GM counter infinity holes in their games?

My specific example comes from Tri-Stat. There are two particular attributes that concern me here: Henchmen and Sidekick.

The Sidekick attribute allows one to spend Points to get a single sidekick who, depending on the amount of points spent, can be built with up to 50% of the Points of the lead character. It is explicitly noted a sidekick CANNOT have the Sidekock attribute.

Henchmen, however, scales differently. The amount of points spent determines the amount of henchmen one gets, and whether they are (stat-wise) identical or unique. One can have up to 500 henchmen, spending 20 points for non-uniques. Henchmen are always built on 30 points. Hennchmen have NO clause stating that they cannot have Henchmen (or Sidekick for that matter, and a sidekick could also have Henchmen)...

It's not hard to see that if one decides to get some particularly weak henchmen (with only 10 points to spend on actual ability each) any encounter could potentially be just zombie rushed with MILLIONS of henchies. Moreso because extremely large mobile pocket dimensions are quite attainable.


So, assuming this situation - these henchmen will likely not be able to DO much in terms of damage, but would be an excellent meat wall (or infinite team of scientists/corporate drones). Aside from using their own tricks against them and escalating this, what could one do to neutralize such an event? I've already considered mind control, but that ability is specifically targets-limited...

[icefractal]

I just ban infinite/NI loops as a whole. It's interesting to find them, but there's not much point playing with them, even for a very optimization-centric campaign.

If you want an IC explanation, the simplest is that people have discovered this before. Perhaps someone already rules the world (secretly) with an infinitely large army of invisible spirits that permeate every inch of reality; that person probably doesn't want competition. Alternately, perhaps powerful beings in the setting came to a treaty about this in the past, where they all agree not to use infinite armies and to join forces against anyone trying to start one.

If this comes up with an already existing PC, a character rebuild should be allowed, of course.

[Cazero]

Pun-pun has virtualy limitless power and time to plan on the best way to stay on top. This include permanent epic scrying on potential challengers. So obviously he immediately shows up and murders the guilty party with a soul-eating knife before disappearing.

[weckar]

icefractal, so can I take from your post "Someone already did it better"? That's a pretty good one actually, thanks. It'd really cover my ass as I try to play really ban-light.

Cazero, I don't think this system really HAS a pun-pun equivalent. But in a D&D case with similar parameters certainly a good solution!

[Kid Jake]

Cazero, I don't think this system really HAS a pun-pun equivalent. But in a D&D case with similar parameters certainly a good solution!

That's not a big deal, Pun-Pun simply grants himself the supernatural ability System Hop. :smalltongue:

[Sith_Happens]

So here's an interesting thing. Short of just banning a faultily written rule, how does a GM counter infinity holes in their games?

Why not? This is an outright infinite combo we're talking about here, I see no compelling reason to not just drop the banhammer on it and be done.

[Kid Jake]

I actually kind of like the idea of letting somebody get a few billion henchmen this way and then when the PC shouts "Get 'em!" the first generation henchmen use their action to turn to the second generation and are like "You heard him, get 'em!" then the second turns to the third and are like "Alright boys, get 'em!"; then the third to the fourth, the fourth to the fifth and so on until after thirty or so rounds of this the horde finally jumps into action too late to actually do anything helpful.

Since 9/10ths are just useless middlemen who exist solely to order those below them around, the sheer bureaucracy of the organization should be enough to eventually convince the player that those points are better spent on a smaller and more efficient strike force.

[Segev]

It's not hard to see that if one decides to get some particularly weak henchmen (with only 10 points to spend on actual ability each) any encounter could potentially be just zombie rushed with MILLIONS of henchies. Moreso because extremely large mobile pocket dimensions are quite attainable.


So, assuming this situation - these henchmen will likely not be able to DO much in terms of damage, but would be an excellent meat wall (or infinite team of scientists/corporate drones). Aside from using their own tricks against them and escalating this, what could one do to neutralize such an event? I've already considered mind control, but that ability is specifically targets-limited...

Tri-Stat has the built-in "cure" for this: the henchmen of your henchmen's henchmen are loyal to your henchmen's henchmen, not to your henchmen nor to you. The deeper this chain goes, the easier it is to hit "higher up" the chain and take out a link of loyalty of lots of these zerg-rushing zombies in the chain leading to you. Hit the "core" henchmen, those loyal to the PC directly, and you take out entire swaths of his armies. They become NPCs under your control as DM.

[legomaster00156]

Alternatively, let someone make this character. Allow them to get as cheesy as they want. When they're done, thank them for making an NPC for you, and ask them to create a PC.

[bulbaquil]

My general rule on this: "All recursive loops stop after the first iteration. Yes, even that one. Especially that one."

So A causes B, which in turn causes C. C would cause A, but recursive loops stop after the first iteration, so it doesn't.

[Vitruviansquid]

Look across the table, straight into the eyes of your player.

Say, "look, man, we're all friends here. Can you just not?"

[Slipperychicken]

There's a similar loophole in the game I'm going to DM soon.

I'd tell the player bluntly "I'm not going to let you do this". I had a player come to me earlier today with a character named "God", and I simply told him no. That's one way to deal with players wanting to do things that simply are not acceptable.


Perhaps a more helpful piece of advice is that character creation should not happen in a vacuum. Your players should at the very least submit finished characters to you for approval (in addition to backstory, character motivations, intended playstyle, common actions, and so on), far enough in advance of the game that you can properly vet them and they can make any necessary changes (up to and including creating a different character entirely because you vetoed it). Ideally, they should pitch character ideas to you before they make anything, to save time in the case inappropriate or unacceptable ideas come up.

Also, remember that you, as the DM, have authority to ask for changes. Even if a player submits to you a character that is in perfect compliance with the manual's rules, you have the final say of what does and does not make it into the campaign.

[weckar]

Veto right is a very important thing. Thing is, I know that as a player this is exactly the sort of thing I would try to do :smalltongue:

[Vrock_Summoner]

Man, I walked into this thread hoping for a discussion about patching dimensional holes in space or something equally epic and sci-fi.

Well, anyway, parrot parrot, infinite loops contribute nothing positive and should be banned, end parrot parrot.

[TeChameleon]

Kid Jake's suggestion is the closest to what I'd do; do you have any idea what it takes to coordinate millions of people in order to accomplish anything useful whatsoever? I'd pretty much say they hit rather sharply diminishing returns beyond a dozen or so henchies, as a higher and higher percentage of them would be needed for infrastructure, communication, middle management, and so on. And unless they're in stasis while in the pocket dimension mentioned, you'll need some way to feed them, entertain them during downtimes, and so on and so forth.

Basically, some light houseruling turns it into a self-regulating problem.

Alternatively... and bear in mind, I'm simply not familiar with the system mentioned, so I have no idea how possible this is... you could have your erstwhile minion master munchkin run into a Doomsday-esque opponent who treats the minions as a sort of mildly inconvenient (and very slightly thicker at the start) red mist, no matter how many of them there are.

Or, as a final suggestion... 'Heroes get sidekicks. Henchmen are a villain thing, and this is an heroic campaign.' (assuming you are, of course, running an heroic campaign)

[weckar]

Alternatively... and bear in mind, I'm simply not familiar with the system mentioned, so I have no idea how possible this is... you could have your erstwhile minion master munchkin run into a Doomsday-esque opponent who treats the minions as a sort of mildly inconvenient (and very slightly thicker at the start) red mist, no matter how many of them there are.
Planet-eaters are very well possible with enough Points, so this sounds doable. Great post overall, I like the digging into the actual logistics and morale elements...

[mikeejimbo]

Wait, do players get to design their henchmen?

GURPS has two advantages similar to these: Ally and Ally Group, but the rules explicitly state that the GM designs Allies with input from the Player.

[weckar]

They do. This whole chapter does have a giant GM APPROVAL sticker on it, though.

[Martin Greywolf]

The best way to deal with this is by DM-player agreement, as many have pointed out. If you insist on finding in-universe reason, then it's simple: resources.

For your henchmen, at first glance, it's the population of the entire planet, so let's say 5 bilion. But, if you want to bring 5 bil people to bear in battle, how do you get them there? Where will you get food, especially since no one is making it anymore? Not to mention toilets for thousands and thousands of tons of actual, physical **** you have to deal with.

Even if you scale down to several thousand, you still need to provide lodging and food, and while a group of twenty henchmen might be able to take care of it by themselves via hotels and renting apartments, those are gonna run out very soon. There's also the matter of states taking a dim view on cult-like groups of well-armed people, so expect at least governmental inquiry.

You can apply this resources argument to literally any infinite loop - the resource they're using isn't really infinite, only infinite for sane applications of it. So, for Pun-pun, there's not enough magic, for accelerating something, there's speed of light and atmospheric friction (the latter can straight up turn fast things into plasma), etc etc

[weckar]

So, for Pun-pun, there's not enough magic, for accelerating something, there's speed of light and atmospheric friction (the latter can straight up turn fast things into plasma), etc etc
Funny you should mention that, as this game has a hyperflight attribute that goes to N times speed of light :P

[Max_Killjoy]

"Patching infinity holes" sounds more like an intriguing campaign premise, than a system problem.

[TeChameleon]

Planet-eaters are very well possible with enough Points, so this sounds doable. Great post overall, I like the digging into the actual logistics and morale elements...

Heh, thanks. I'm just glad if it helps.

... fair warning, I already know how I'd counter the morale/logistics arguments; robotic or undead minions (or some other variety that doesn't care if it spends downtime standing there doing nothing and doesn't need to eat, etc.), although you could simply do 'your head asplode' if they overdo it trying to command the minions. Command structures are important, no matter what you're commanding :smallamused:

Admittedly, if I was looking to break a supers game, I'd look first to either superspeed or teleportation, not minions, so there's that to consider.

EDIT: Er, not because I expect them to be inherently more powerful, just personal preference.

[Jay R]

A. The simplest answer is to veto bad rules, or bad consequences from rules.

B. An alternative is to actually think things through. The character has 1,000,000 minions? OK, does he have enough money to feed them? How does he give them orders? How long does it take to organize them to all go to the site of the adventure? Does he have enough horses (cars, planes, ships, teleport spells)? How many of them fit in the room the encounter is in? Most absurd ideas are unplayable as soon as you actually see things through.

C. I'm playing under a DM right now with a very elegant approach. When somebody asks for a ludicrous interpretation that gives far too much power, he says, "Do you want me to allow it, knowing that the villains will start using it, too?"

[Traab]

If you wont just say "No" to the infinite loop and feel the need to justify it, say, "Think about this. Where the hell are you getting these infinite troops from?" Unless this henchmen power explicitly creates henchmen from nothing, then it would make no sense to claim infinite henchmen.

[Slipperychicken]

They do. This whole chapter does have a giant GM APPROVAL sticker on it, though.

I've learned from experience, those kinds of disclaimers are not a substitute for the GM having the spine to tell a player no.

Someone's going to either ask about the GM-approval-required player option, or will write it on their sheet and bring it to the table without asking. In either case, the GM should be capable of both refusing his players when they want to do something that isn't inappropriate, and of articulating his actual reasoning for not wanting it, instead of hiding behind rules and implicit threats.

[Hytheter]

"Patching infinity holes" sounds more like an intriguing campaign premise, than a system problem.

I know right? I came into this thread expecting some sort of plot idea.

[NNescio]

Tri-Stat has the built-in "cure" for this: the henchmen of your henchmen's henchmen are loyal to your henchmen's henchmen, not to your henchmen nor to you. The deeper this chain goes, the easier it is to hit "higher up" the chain and take out a link of loyalty of lots of these zerg-rushing zombies in the chain leading to you. Hit the "core" henchmen, those loyal to the PC directly, and you take out entire swaths of his armies. They become NPCs under your control as DM.

So, basically, they're like 5e Simulacrums daisy-chained via Wish, but with more vulnerable middle management that are easier to tear apart.

[Lord Torath]

"Patching infinity holes" sounds more like an intriguing campaign premise, than a system problem.

I know right? I came into this thread expecting some sort of plot idea.My first thought was Goblins's Oblivion Holes (http://www.goblinscomic.org/12132011/), and patching the infinity version of those.

As far as patching infinity rules holes, it's important to recognize that the rules are trying to model a fantasy world; they do not represent the actual physical laws governing that world (or worlds, as the case may be). We have equations that model behavior in our world, and occasionally they go off to infinity (an anti-collision pressure sensor connected to a robotic arm, for example, that instructs the arm to pull back with a speed proportional to the pressure reading from the sensor. If this arm gets stuck between two solid beams, it will start bouncing faster and faster between contact with the two beams. The equation predicting the behavior of the arm heads off to infinity. In reality, the arm, motor, sensor, or one of the beams will fail before the arm can reach infinite speed). In those cases, we say that the equation (or rule) fails to reflect reality, and a new equation (or rule) must be used to describe the behavior beyond a certain point.

If any rule or combination of rules leads to a nonsensical result, the DM/GM needs to step up and say "It doesn't work like that. This rule works well within the intended use*, but outside of that intended use, it no longer describes the actual behavior."

* Maybe. I don't know what rule you're abusing. It might actually be just a bad rule. :smalltongue:

[ka_bna]

Allow it and then have the perfect start of a new campaign: https://what-if.xkcd.com/8/

[CoreBrute23]

The fanfiction and now book 'The Two Year Emperor' explored what happened when someone who thought outside the box entered a world with DnD-esc rules. He made use of a lot of infinity holes to survive, including instantaneous messaging using free actions, infinite money by buying ladders and selling back broken staves for profit, abusing Djinn wish logic, etc.

Most of the time, the god found this hilarious, or it wasn't even enough compared to the opposition he had to face. At least once though, a god came down, told him to stop it or else. Which is better than the alternative I guess, which would be the opponents start using it too.

Note: The Two Year Emperor is no longer on Fanfiction.net, but the author is giving it away for free on his patreon to non-backers. https://www.patreon.com/davidstorrs

[Chimera245]

For what it's worth, If I'm remembering the correct game system, henchmen with henchmen with henchmen was actually an intended, practical use of the ability. It states that that's how hierarchies of NPC gangsters or army soldiers and the like are statted out. Each squad is loyal to their immediate commander, and those commanders are loyal to THEIR commanders, etc. all the way up to the big cheese on top.

But any task that requires that big cheese to take action, is going to be suited to the big cheese himself, and probably his top-tier henchmen. MAYBE the second-to-top. But any lower than that, and they'll just get in the way. If the task is actually suited for troops of that level of ability, then the top guy himself would never have considered doing it in the first place, and it's something that just gets taken care of by NPCs in the background, so that the minion-tree PC can follow the ACTUAL plot hook instead.

Instead of:

Adventurer Bob: "Come on, rally the whole army! We've got rats in the sewers to exterminate!"
Army: "Yeeeeaaahhh! Long live Adventurer Bob!!"

It would be:

Captain Guy: "Sir, Lieutenant Dude reports that Sergeant Mann and Squad Gamma found an abundance of rats in the town's sewers. They've already exterminated them, but they report finding a dark artifact that was used to summon the rats."
Adventurer Bob: "A dark artifact? That's got to be the work of Lord Warlock! We've got to take him out before he causes more harm!"
Captain Guy: "Shall I summon the army?"
Adventurer Bob: "No, Lord Warlock is too strong for most of the troops. Call the other captains and lieutenants. Everyone else would be a liability."