Multiclass caster question

[Joe dirt]

Got a new player in my game and he brought in an OP multiclass character and would like to know if its legit... he is playing an elf wiz3 (blade singer) Palidin 2 and has access to 3rd level wizard spells and with magic has higher A.C. than our fighter (currently a 21 A.C. and goes to 26 with shield spell)

So my question is this legit?

[Ruslan]

Got a new player in my game and he brought in an OP multiclass character and would like to know if its legit... he is playing an elf wiz3 (blade singer) Palidin 2 and has access to 3rd level wizard spells and with magic has higher A.C. than our fighter (currently a 21 A.C. and goes to 26 with shield spell)

So my question is this legit?

The access to 3rd level spells is not legit. Wizard 3/Paladin 2 doesn't have access to 3rd level Wizard spells. He'll need at least 5 levels in Wizard for that.

Here are the rules for multiclass casters:

- To determine spell slots, take the total levels in all full-casting classes (in this case 3 levels of Wizard), and add 1/2 of the levels in half-casting classes (in this case, 2 levels of Paladin translate into 1 level).

So the total spell slots are determined as a 4th level character (refer to PHB table for multiclass spell slots).

- For spells the character has access to, take spells from each individual class as if he was a single-classed character of that class. So he has available wizard spells as if he was a 3rd level wizard, and has Paladin spells available as if he was a 2nd level Paladin.

[Daishain]

What Ruslan said about the spells
In addition, that's a really high AC for a fifth level character. If he is using the Mage Armor spell in addition to physical armor, he should be aware that it doesn't stack.

If the AC is a result of the blade singing, he can only use it twice a day for one minute a pop. Without your approval Bladesingers can't be anything other than an elf (I personally would be inclined to let any race not known for being on the clumsy side follow that tradition). In addition, the blade song cannot be used with medium armor, heavy armor, shields, an offhand weapon, or a two handed weapon.

[Citan]

Got a new player in my game and he brought in an OP multiclass character and would like to know if its legit... he is playing an elf wiz3 (blade singer) Palidin 2 and has access to 3rd level wizard spells and with magic has higher A.C. than our fighter (currently a 21 A.C. and goes to 26 with shield spell)

So my question is this legit?
Hi! ;)

1. What other said about spell known: 3rd level spells is not valid.

2. AC. It's legit... Depending on how he reaches it.
For him to get 21 base AC, he needs to...
Either wield the best heavy armor + shield + Defense style... But then what the point of being a Bladesinger, he could use none of its abilities...

So, more probably, he stacks Mage Armor + Bladesinger.
Since Mage armor is 13+DEX, Bladesinger is +INT to AC, it means that the addition of its INT modifier and DEX modifier must be equal or superior to 8 (or 7 if he chose the Defense Lifestyle).
Meaning +5 / +3, or +4 / +4.
If you rolled stats, then it's good.
Otherwise, it does not work, unless you allowed him to be anything else than an Elf.
Best race for the build is High Elf, meaning +2 DEX, +1 INT.
With point buy, he can start with 15 in both DEX and INT, meaning one stat at 16, the other at 17.
+3+3 < 7 (Defense Fighting Style) or 8 (other Fighting Style).

Hope that helps. ;=)

[somehownotsingl]

1) Make sure he is not trying to use bladesong while wearing anything heavier than light armor. Make sure he's not using a shield, either, while bladesinging. There are legit ways to get that high of an AC for a level 5 character, I suppose, but it's a yellow flag -- especially because he's got to be quite MAD at the moment.

2) Which brings me to my second point: make sure he is following muticlass stat requirements. To be a paladin/wizard, he has to have at least 13 in STR, INT, and CHA. Again, he might, but this build already has so misunderstandings of basic rules for 5e, I thought it was worth mentioning.

[Elminster298]

Everything everyone else said. If we had more stat info we could more efficiently gauge the legitimacy of the character.

[Joe dirt]

Everything everyone else said. If we had more stat info we could more efficiently gauge the legitimacy of the character.

yeah i dont know much about his new character, he did start off playing a rogue but then decided to quit that character to play this new one.

my follow up question is why does he need 5 levels of wizard to cast 3rd level spells.... he should be considered a 4th level caster now right? 3 for wizard and 1 for 2 levels in paladin.... which means if he is 4 levels in paladin and 3 levels in wizard then he should be able to cast 3rd level spells... right?

[JNAProductions]

yeah i dont know much about his new character, he did start off playing a rogue but then decided to quit that character to play this new one.

my follow up question is why does he need 5 levels of wizard to cast 3rd level spells.... he should be considered a 4th level caster now right? 3 for wizard and 1 for 2 levels in paladin.... which means if he is 4 levels in paladin and 3 levels in wizard then he should be able to cast 3rd level spells... right?

He can cast spells of 3rd level... But he doesn't actually KNOW any 3rd level spells. All he can do is upcast spells.

[somehownotsingl]

my follow up question is why does he need 5 levels of wizard to cast 3rd level spells.... he should be considered a 4th level caster now right? 3 for wizard and 1 for 2 levels in paladin.... which means if he is 4 levels in paladin and 3 levels in wizard then he should be able to cast 3rd level spells... right?

In 5e, multiclassing caster classes is a bit different. While Cantrips are based on character level, no other spells are. On page 165 of the PHB you can see how spell SLOTS work on a multiclass caster. If he was a Paladin 2/Wizard 3, he would count as a 4th level caster for the purpose of spell SLOTS (see table). However, spells KNOWN are not affected by multiclassing. He KNOWS any spells that a 2nd level paladin would know, plus he knows any spells a 3rd level wizard would know. Neither Paladin 2, not Wizard 3 knows third level spells, however.

So, with multiclassing in 5e, it's actually possible to have SLOTS of a higher level than any spells you KNOW! You can still use those slots, but it would be to cast spells you know that are capable of being cast at higher levels, as well (e.g. Cure Wounds)

[DracoKnight]

he can only use it twice a day for one minute a pop

Twice per rest. It's a short/long rest recharge.

[Zman]

yeah i dont know much about his new character, he did start off playing a rogue but then decided to quit that character to play this new one.

my follow up question is why does he need 5 levels of wizard to cast 3rd level spells.... he should be considered a 4th level caster now right? 3 for wizard and 1 for 2 levels in paladin.... which means if he is 4 levels in paladin and 3 levels in wizard then he should be able to cast 3rd level spells... right?

He isn't using the Multiclass Spellcaster rules correctly.

You determine the highest spell level from each class as if they were single classed using the levels they have in that class. This is what he isn't following. He has three levels of Wizard, meaning he can learn, prepare, and cast up to 2nd level Wizard Spells. With two levels in Paladin he has access to 1st level Paladin Spells.

Now, spell slots are different, he gets to add his caster levels together and compare them to the Multiclass Spellslot table. But, Paladin only counts as 1/2 level.

So, he has the spell slots of a 4th level caster. He can use those slots to cast 1st or 2nd level Wizard Spells or to cast 1st level Paladin spells.

Also, he needs to meet every single Multiclass require,net from both Wizard and Paladin,meaning h needs incredibly high stats for this build.

He could reach that AC while Bladesinging, i.e. Twice per short rest. 13(Mage Armor) +4(Dex) +4(Int) = 21 +5(Shield). Only way that happens is having a pair of 18s and is not possible using Point Buy as he doesn't have the two ASIs that are required. Are you using rolled stats or Houserules?


To answer your question, no it isn't legitimate, he doesn't understand the rules. If played correctly,my he character is not OP.

[Drackolus]

As a 2nd level paladin, he can cast shield of faith as well.

[somehownotsingl]

If his heart is really set on paladin/wizard build, he's honestly better off using the abjurer school than the bladesinging school. Bladesinging really needs a high DEX and a high INT to pull it off. An Abjurer build, depending on spells selected, would still work fine with INT as a dump or near dump stat (after the 13 required to multiclass with Wizard), and wouldn't have to care about DEX at all.

Paladin/Bladesinger will pretty much never ever be OP. Way, way, way too MAD. And of all the full casters, Wizard is literally the worst -- by far! -- to pair with Paladin.

Tell him to look into all the tasty possibilities of a paladin combo with bard, sorcerer, or warlock. Each of those could be very strong, depending on what he ultimately wants his character to look like.

[RickAllison]

If his heart is really set on paladin/wizard build, he's honestly better off using the abjurer school than the bladesinging school. Bladesinging really needs a high DEX and a high INT to pull it off. An Abjurer build, depending on spells selected, would still work fine with INT as a dump or near dump stat (after the 13 required to multiclass with Wizard), and wouldn't have to care about DEX at all.

Paladin/Bladesinger will pretty much never ever be OP. Way, way, way too MAD. And of all the full casters, Wizard is literally the worst -- by far! -- to pair with Paladin.

Tell him to look into all the tasty possibilities of a paladin combo with bard, sorcerer, or warlock. Each of those could be very strong, depending on what he ultimately wants his character to look like.

Sorcerers fairly popular. You gain the capability to convert slots that can't be used for Smiting into Smiting slots, even though that is generally a bad idea.

[somehownotsingl]

Sorcerers fairly popular. You gain the capability to convert slots that can't be used for Smiting into Smiting slots, even though that is generally a bad idea.

Sorcerer works very well. If all you want to do is going around smite-murdering, warlock is fantastic. All those warlock spells you gain recharge on short rests! Smite away.

[RickAllison]

Sorcerer works very well. If all you want to do is going around smite-murdering, warlock is fantastic. All those warlock spells you gain recharge on short rests! Smite away.

And with Bladelock (I can't believe I'm saying this), he doesn't even need to go the full 5 levels in!

[Joe dirt]

In 5e, multiclassing caster classes is a bit different. While Cantrips are based on character level, no other spells are. On page 165 of the PHB you can see how spell SLOTS work on a multiclass caster. If he was a Paladin 2/Wizard 3, he would count as a 4th level caster for the purpose of spell SLOTS (see table). However, spells KNOWN are not affected by multiclassing. He KNOWS any spells that a 2nd level paladin would know, plus he knows any spells a 3rd level wizard would know. Neither Paladin 2, not Wizard 3 knows third level spells, however.

So, with multiclassing in 5e, it's actually possible to have SLOTS of a higher level than any spells you KNOW! You can still use those slots, but it would be to cast spells you know that are capable of being cast at higher levels, as well (e.g. Cure Wounds)

couldnt u in theory get scrolls and learn them if u was a wizard?

and yes i think he has a shield to achieve the high AC... doesnt this require warcaster feat?

[Zman]

couldnt u in theory get scrolls and learn them if u was a wizard?

That his Wizard levels as if he was a single classed Wozard for spells know and maximum spell level that he can cast. Only spell slots is boosted by the addition of Paladin levels. The rules on Multiclassing are pretty clear on this, for everyone but spell slots treat the Multiclass character as if they are single classed.


Tell him to reread the Bladesinging rules, he can't use a Shield with Bladesinging. Essentially this player is misinterpreting most of his build.

[somehownotsingl]

couldnt u in theory get scrolls and learn them if u was a wizard?

and yes i think he has a shield to achieve the high AC... doesnt this require warcaster feat?

1) No loophole with the scrolls; you are still bound by the level of spell that you can actually prepare

2) Warcaster will not override the bladesinger requirement that you not be using a shield.

[somehownotsingl]

I feel like we've pretty well blown up the character your player is proposing. It might be helpful to get an idea from this player of exactly what he wants to do, then start a new thread so we can offer some advice on character creation. There's really nothing left to say about why Paladin/Wizard (Bladesinger) is a bad build and/or why it works nothing like your player thinks it does. I'd love to be able to offer some help and not just more downers :-)

[Foxhound438]

Basically the biggest red flag for me is meeting the multiclass requirements. You need to fulfill the stat requirements of the class you start as in order to multiclass out, so unless he's doing something really unorthodox (and wasting his wizard subclass features), there's some errors in his build. Have him take you level-by-level on how he built it.

[Ruslan]

yeah i dont know much about his new character, he did start off playing a rogue but then decided to quit that character to play this new one.

my follow up question is why does he need 5 levels of wizard to cast 3rd level spells.... he should be considered a 4th level caster now right? 3 for wizard and 1 for 2 levels in paladin.... which means if he is 4 levels in paladin and 3 levels in wizard then he should be able to cast 3rd level spells... right?
Excellent question. As Wizard 3/Paladin 4 he will have 3rd level slots. But he won't know any 3rd level spells, because as Wizard 3 he only has access to 1st and 2nd level Wizard spells, and as Paladin 4 to 1st level Paladin spells. His 3rd level slots can be used to cast lower level spells (eg. he can cast Burning Hands as a 3rd level spell), or he can just use them to Smite.

[DivisibleByZero]

couldnt u in theory get scrolls and learn them if u was a wizard

Won't help.
Copying spells into your spellbook is the wizard's version of learning the spell. He can only learn spells that a 4th level wizard can learn and prepare, which is max second level spells.
He needs 5 actual wizard levels before he can copy 3rd level spells into his book, 7 wiz for 4th, etc.

[Erys]

Odds are high he also doubled up on his good saves; taking all four instead of taking just the two from his first class.

[Daishain]

couldnt u in theory get scrolls and learn them if u was a wizard?

and yes i think he has a shield to achieve the high AC... doesnt this require warcaster feat?
To cast spells with a shield in one hand and a weapon in the other, yes, he needs war caster.

In addition, as already mentioned, he cannot hold a shield or a weapon of any description in his off hand at all if he is using blade song. War caster does not help with that requirement.

[RickAllison]

To cast spells with a shield in one hand and a weapon in the other, yes, he needs war caster.

In addition, as already mentioned, he cannot hold a shield or a weapon of any description in his off hand at all if he is using blade song. War caster does not help with that requirement.


Starting at 2nd level, you can invoke a secret elven
magic called the Bladesong, provided that you aren't
wearing medium or heavy armor or using a shield. It
graces you with supernatural speed, agility, and focus.
You can use a bonus action to start the Bladesong,
which lasts for 1 minute. It ends early if you are incapacitated,
if you don medium or heavy armor or a shield, or
if you use two hands to make an attack with a weapon.
You can also dismiss the Bladesong at any time you
choose (no action required).

So medium armor, heavy armor, and shields all negate it. However he can dual-wield (he is only using one hand to make an attack with a given weapon) and he can hold two-handed weapons so long as he doesn't attack with them.