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de-trick
2007-07-05, 11:07 PM
Afriend a while ago had a D30 but he was being cheap not to tell me what it was for. So im asking you whats a D30 for?

psychoticbarber
2007-07-05, 11:09 PM
Nothing I've ever seen. Now I'm curious!:smallbiggrin:

Diggorian
2007-07-05, 11:17 PM
Could be to determine the day of a month.

We use them to play a modified version of Alternity, in place of the d20, for more variance. Other games may use them.

de-trick
2007-07-05, 11:22 PM
i think its for D&D because thats what we play

that be funny if it was to see what day it is

DM; its the 15
player1; it was the 29 yesterday
player2; it was already been the 15 three days ago
DM; its a new month
player1; what happened to the other days
DM; time change

brian c
2007-07-05, 11:25 PM
What exactly does a d30 look like?

Maybe I only know this because I'm a math geek, but the reason the D&D dies are d4, d6, d8, d12 and d20 are because those are the regular polyhedra. d10 is just because percentiles are useful for a lot of things.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2007-07-05, 11:31 PM
For those colossal sized Monks that need to have scaled damage to d30's.
Not really though. The only thing I could see them used for are specialized rolls; like the day of the month per de-trick ; or something like random encounters "you are going to find between 1 and 30 pit fiends" or "your wizard can prepare between 1 and 30 1st level spells to fight between 1 and 30 pit fiends by his or herself" or something utterly hilarious like that. :smile:

Inyssius Tor
2007-07-05, 11:33 PM
What exactly does a d30 look like?

http://www.summoner.nl/images%2Fproducts%2Fchessex%2FCHX%20XP%203024%2Fla rge.jpg

Gavin Sage
2007-07-05, 11:37 PM
Its there so the d12 can have somebody to pick on as less used. :smallsmile:

Zeb The Troll
2007-07-05, 11:38 PM
I've been known to use mine to keep track of a modified initiative above 20. I don't roll it for initiative, I just use it to keep track of the final number.

Also for randomly determining the day of the month as well.

Damionte
2007-07-05, 11:40 PM
It's not for D&D. As basic D&D doesn't use any dice over 20. He may be using for D&D though, but it's not a part of the system. Even D100 is done with a pair of D10's. Though you get better results from an actual D100.

Zeb The Troll
2007-07-05, 11:49 PM
Though you get better results from an actual D100.I didn't have this same experience. My "golf ball" always lands on the seem, making it not very useful for percentile rolls.

Fhaolan
2007-07-06, 12:07 AM
Okay, I guess it's time for one of the old gamers to weigh in and tell the story.

For the mathies: a d30 is a rhombic triacontahedron.

Back in the time of TSR and 1st edition AD&D, someone decided to create and sell a d30 as a novelty item, later d24s and d100s were created for the same reason. D&Ders sat around for *ages* trying to come up with ways to use this thing. Usually it ended up being used for fumble tables, and various spell result tables were expanded to 30 items via houserules. Several games were published to use the die, but the die came before the games.

Zeb The Troll
2007-07-06, 12:26 AM
Okay, I guess it's time for one of the old gamers to weigh in and tell the story.Heh, that's something I didn't know and I've been playing D&D for long enough (1992) to consider myself an "old gamer", just a bit shy of a true grognard.

Bitzeralisis
2007-07-06, 12:30 AM
Ooh... the rhombic triacontahedron looks cool. I wish I had a d30.

Skyserpent
2007-07-06, 12:44 AM
I had a DM who, bastard that he is, utilized the d30 specifically during what he deemed "Boss" encounters... thus, my DC 18 Will Save spells were quite suddenly, less than imposing...

psychoticbarber
2007-07-06, 12:50 AM
Back in the time of TSR and 1st edition AD&D, someone decided to create and sell a d30 as a novelty item, later d24s and d100s were created for the same reason.

Waitwaitwait.

Hold up.

d24?!

That's...
awesomely horribly disgustingly cool.

All at once.

-Cor-
2007-07-06, 01:00 AM
Possible uses for a d30:


Damage for a near futuristic weapon. I could see a prototype laser having this large a damage range. (Hits your finger = 1 | Hits your eyeball = 30)
Directional die for a huge base creature. (With 2 extra numbers for directly in front and 1 extra for each side and back)
Random timer for quick thinking reaction. You have <rolls> 22 seconds to make a decision... Go!
Random building?
Which flavors of ice cream are available? (They're always out of one.)

Bitzeralisis
2007-07-06, 01:04 AM
Waitwaitwait.

Hold up.

d24?!

That's...
awesomely horribly disgustingly cool.

All at once.

For random hours in a day.

Jack Mann
2007-07-06, 01:12 AM
It's not for D&D. As basic D&D doesn't use any dice over 20. He may be using for D&D though, but it's not a part of the system. Even D100 is done with a pair of D10's. Though you get better results from an actual D100.

In what way? The odds are the same either way: 1:99 for any given number.

Fhaolan
2007-07-06, 01:13 AM
Waitwaitwait.

Hold up.

d24?!

That's...
awesomely horribly disgustingly cool.

All at once.

Here's a site that lists all the die types you're likely to run into. There are new dice shapes being produced all the time by the die companies, but this is fairly comprehensive:

http://www.dicecollector.com/diceinfo_how_many_shapes.html

Gaelbert
2007-07-06, 01:51 AM
The d34s are my favorite from the above link.

Swordguy
2007-07-06, 02:19 AM
It's not for D&D. As basic D&D doesn't use any dice over 20. He may be using for D&D though, but it's not a part of the system. Even D100 is done with a pair of D10's. Though you get better results from an actual D100.

Incorrect. It's not for 3rd Edition D&D. The AD&D Encyclopedia Magica books have several random item tables that use a d30...

TheGreatJabu
2007-07-06, 02:29 AM
In what way? The odds are the same either way: 1:99 for any given number.

Yeah, statistics is kind of on Jack Mann's side here. It might not "feel as random", but statistically speaking it is the exact same thing. Each number has exactly a 1% chance of being rolled with either method.

How many cards are there in a Deck of Many Things? I'm surprised THAT hasn't been given a random di-based generation method.

Kurald Galain
2007-07-06, 03:39 AM
2nd edition had some tricks to increase hit points or weapon damage to the next larger die; this could supposedly end up at a d30.

AtomicKitKat
2007-07-06, 05:00 AM
2nd edition had some tricks to increase hit points or weapon damage to the next larger die; this could supposedly end up at a d30.

Well, the Initiate of Draconic Mysteries apparently raises your damage die to the next step(and not by the weapon increase rules either) so normally, you could go from say 2d10 to 2d12 to 2d20, and then 2d100.:smallwink: If you had a d30, you could bring it down to a slightly more manageable 2d30.:smalltongue:

Edit: What's the next "regular" shape after d20? d24? d28? I'm guessing it has to be some kind of multiple of 4.

Rasumichin
2007-07-06, 05:34 AM
Back in the mid-90s, there was a german RPG called Ruf des Warlock that was based primarily on the d30.
Apart from that, i don't know any game that uses it.
After all, i also think it's mostly a novelty item for dice collectors.
And i want one, too.:smallbiggrin:

Suvarov454
2007-07-06, 05:45 AM
Heh, that's something I didn't know and I've been playing D&D for long enough (1992) to consider myself an "old gamer", just a bit shy of a true grognard.

Bah! You're not an "old gamer" unless you've been playing since before the 1st ed books came out. :smallbiggrin:

Charity
2007-07-06, 06:05 AM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8e/D%26d_Box1st.jpg
This was the first edition that I played.
The D30 did have a game that used it, many moons ago, but it was just a gimmick in all fairness, as it remains to this day.

Zeb The Troll
2007-07-06, 06:10 AM
That one's a little bit before my time. :smallcool: I never said I was the oldest gamer, just that I've been playing for a goodly long time.

(I have, however, met Dave Arneson. He's an odd nut.)

Closet_Skeleton
2007-07-06, 06:35 AM
Now I want a d23, weighted.

Saph
2007-07-06, 07:26 AM
Want a use for a D30? The folks at Critical Miss (http://www.criticalmiss.com/issue8/d20shagged2.html) are there to help!

Presenting the alternative Critical Miss feat:

The Legendary Hero

You're just really great.

Prerequisites: Str 16+, Dex 16+, Con 16+, Int 16+, Wis 16+, Cha 16+

Benefits: On any occasion where you would roll a 20-sided dice (such as for attacks, saving throws and skill rolls) you can instead roll a 30-sided dice.

A roll of 1 counts as a critical failure, as with a 1 on a 20-sided dice. Where a roll of 20 on a 20-sided dice is a critical success, then a roll of 30 will count as a critical success.Where a roll of 19 or 20 on a 20-sided dice is a critical success, then a roll of 29 or 30 will count as a critical success.

Notes: The best way to handle gaining this feat is just to start using it. Most people are unused to D30s and will often mistake one for a D20, so you will probably be able to use this feat for quite a while before anyone actually notices.

- Saph

Galathir
2007-07-06, 08:52 AM
I think it may be used in the Star Wars RPG. I know a friend who has one, though I don't know for sure. It can also be used in the WOW trading card game, to keep track of hit points (or whatever they're called).

Neek
2007-07-06, 10:00 AM
Want a use for a D30? The folks at Critical Miss (http://www.criticalmiss.com/issue8/d20shagged2.html) are there to help!

Presenting the alternative Critical Miss feat:

The Legendary Hero

You're just really great.

Prerequisites: Str 16+, Dex 16+, Con 16+, Int 16+, Wis 16+, Cha 16+

Benefits: On any occasion where you would roll a 20-sided dice (such as for attacks, saving throws and skill rolls) you can instead roll a 30-sided dice.

A roll of 1 counts as a critical failure, as with a 1 on a 20-sided dice. Where a roll of 20 on a 20-sided dice is a critical success, then a roll of 30 will count as a critical success.Where a roll of 19 or 20 on a 20-sided dice is a critical success, then a roll of 29 or 30 will count as a critical success.

Notes: The best way to handle gaining this feat is just to start using it. Most people are unused to D30s and will often mistake one for a D20, so you will probably be able to use this feat for quite a while before anyone actually notices.

- Saph

Pff. When I DM, that's the die I use for the NPCs rolls. ^^;;

LotharBot
2007-07-06, 10:04 AM
I have a d24 and a math degree. I was sitting here trying to figure out what geometric shape a d24 is -- it's a cube with a pyramid on each face, which is not exactly a stellated cube. I wondered if it had a name in its own right, like tetraicosahedron ("four and twenty sided") or something like that. The site linked above calls it a "tetrakis hexahedron", which turns out to be a fancy way of saying "cube with 4-sided pyramids on each face".

TO_Incognito
2007-07-06, 10:10 AM
Want a use for a D30? The folks at Critical Miss are there to help!

Presenting the alternative Critical Miss feat:

The Legendary Hero

You're just really great.

Prerequisites: Str 16+, Dex 16+, Con 16+, Int 16+, Wis 16+, Cha 16+

Benefits: On any occasion where you would roll a 20-sided dice (such as for attacks, saving throws and skill rolls) you can instead roll a 30-sided dice.

A roll of 1 counts as a critical failure, as with a 1 on a 20-sided dice. Where a roll of 20 on a 20-sided dice is a critical success, then a roll of 30 will count as a critical success.Where a roll of 19 or 20 on a 20-sided dice is a critical success, then a roll of 29 or 30 will count as a critical success.

Notes: The best way to handle gaining this feat is just to start using it. Most people are unused to D30s and will often mistake one for a D20, so you will probably be able to use this feat for quite a while before anyone actually notices.

You'd think they'd notice when you start getting natural rolls over 20...

Fax Celestis
2007-07-06, 10:28 AM
I have a d24 and a math degree. I was sitting here trying to figure out what geometric shape a d24 is -- it's a cube with a pyramid on each face, which is not exactly a stellated cube. I wondered if it had a name in its own right, like tetraicosahedron ("four and twenty sided") or something like that. The site linked above calls it a "tetrakis hexahedron", which turns out to be a fancy way of saying "cube with 4-sided pyramids on each face".

Tell me how my d5 works then. :smallbiggrin:

From the top face:
http://www.rpgshop.com/images/uploaded/d5.jpg

Can't find a shot from the side too.

JEntropy
2007-07-06, 10:41 AM
Tell me how my d5 works then. :smallbiggrin:

From the top face:
http://www.rpgshop.com/images/uploaded/d5.jpg

Can't find a shot from the side too.

I expected it to work the same way as a d3 -- in other words, a d10 that lists #s 1-5 twice.

But clearly, given your image, thats not the case. Now I'm curious...

Fax Celestis
2007-07-06, 10:43 AM
I expected it to work the same way as a d3 -- in other words, a d10 that lists #s 1-5 twice.

But clearly, given your image, thats not the case. Now I'm curious...

You obviously have not seen real three sided dice:

http://pen-paper.rpgshop.com/images/uploaded/d3.jpg

In fact, this shot may help:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/FaxCelestis/dice.jpg

...but it's kinda small and blurry. That's a d3, a d5, a d14, a d16, and a d24

Darrin
2007-07-06, 10:44 AM
Okay, I guess it's time for one of the old gamers to weigh in and tell the story.

For the mathies: a d30 is a rhombic triacontahedron.

Back in the time of TSR and 1st edition AD&D, someone decided to create and sell a d30 as a novelty item, later d24s and d100s were created for the same reason. D&Ders sat around for *ages* trying to come up with ways to use this thing. Usually it ended up being used for fumble tables, and various spell result tables were expanded to 30 items via houserules. Several games were published to use the die, but the die came before the games.

I believe the first d30's were created by Lou Zocchi, the founder of Gamescience, one of the first companies to sell polyhedral dice to hobby gamers.

When the first edition D&D box set came out (what I think some people refer to as the "White Box" edition), it came with a set of very soft, poor quality dice, often referred to as "mud dice" because they were usually brown. The plastic used was so soft, the edges quickly wore down, reducing the dice to a roundish spherical shape that was difficult to read. (A few old-timers still carry them in their dice collections for nostalgia, ask around and they can probably show you one.)

To correct the problem of poor quality dice, Lou Zocchi founded Gamescience to mold and sell high-quality precision dice with much sturdier plastics. Back in the day, before Chessex, Koplow, and the Armoury got into the game, Gamescience dice were the best quality you could get. All the Gamescience dice had distinctive sharp edges (and sometimes a small "G" on one of the faces). They originally came un-inked, and you either had to ink them yourself with a finepoint ink pen or fill in the numbers with crayon and then wipe away the excess crayon with a tissue (I believe the blue box edition of D&D included a crayon). The only drawback of the Gamescience dice was there was sometimes a burr or tab where the die was broken off the sprue, and you had to trim this with a hobby knife or sand it down. Other than that, the Gamescience dice were a vast improvement over what you got in the early box sets. Later, the Armoury, Chessex, and Koplow came along, and their dice have high-quality plastic with smoothed edges... Zocchi still pushes his precision gaming dice as "superior", but to some gamers they now look a bit dated.

Zocchi was one of the first to experiment with more specialized or unusual dice, either for homebrew rules or a more obscure game. The D30 was one of his first experiments, and originally when you bought it, it came with a little handout with Critical Hit and Critical Miss tables. Looks like Zocchi may have actually came up with the D30 before he founded Gamescience... they may have been sold first by the Armoury, which sold a whole booklet called "30 Sided Dice Gaming Tables".

Zocchi's crowning achievement was the Zocchihedron, AKA the D100 or "Golfball", that he invented and patented himself. There is no 100-sided polyhedron, but he figured out how to evenly distribute 100 flat "faces" on a plastic sphere. The most distinctive feature of the Zocchihedron is because the faces are so small, it takes a long time to stop rolling. Zocchi's improved the Zocchihedron since then, adding teardrop-shaped weights inside to bring it to a faster stop.

He also developed a custom 16-sided die for ... an RPG I can't recall. Megasomething? He also created a standard d16, which was pretty much forgotten until the Cheapass Games Button Men community discovered it several years ago... and that Zocchi had also come out with a truly unique 7-sided die. While Button Men fanatics were trying to track him down, he developed a new 5-sided die (he already had a d10 numbered 1-5 twice). The D24 came out after that... online gaming stores began to notice the demand for unique specialty dice, and started carrying Gamescience dice. Chessex and Koplow now offer their own versions of the D16 and D24 with smooth edges if you're not keen on the Gamescience casting molds.

Lou Zocchi still goes to Gencon and Origins, so you can find his Gamescience booth there. Otherwise, you can find his dice on several online RPG shops. If you can track down his contact info on an old catalog or online somewhere, you can call him (the Gamescience number is his home phone, and he runs his business out of his garage). But BEWARE: He'll talk your ear off if you let him.

The most recent specialty dice to come out I think are the D3's (lozenge-shaped, also labeled R/P/S) and D14's, some numbered 1-7, some with days of the week above the numbers. A hexidecimal die (another d16) also came out recently, for all of you hardcore coders looking for a little more randomization in your life.

But you really haven't seriously DROOLED over dice until you've seen the Q-Workshop dice.

I'm da Rogue!
2007-07-06, 10:53 AM
I have a d24 and a math degree. I was sitting here trying to figure out what geometric shape a d24 is -- it's a cube with a pyramid on each face, which is not exactly a stellated cube. I wondered if it had a name in its own right, like tetraicosahedron ("four and twenty sided") or something like that. The site linked above calls it a "tetrakis hexahedron", which turns out to be a fancy way of saying "cube with 4-sided pyramids on each face".

actually, a "tetrakis hexahedron" means four times an object with 6 sides. 4 objects with 6 sides each, make 24 sides, but I don't think that makes a d24... which site r u referring to?

Fax Celestis
2007-07-06, 10:54 AM
The most recent specialty dice to come out I think are the D3's (lozenge-shaped, also labeled R/P/S) and D14's, some numbered 1-7, some with days of the week above the numbers. A hexidecimal die (another d16) also came out recently, for all of you hardcore coders looking for a little more randomization in your life.

R/P/S = Rock, Paper, Scissors. Good for MET LARPing.

LotharBot
2007-07-06, 11:24 AM
actually, a "tetrakis hexahedron" means four times an object with 6 sides. 4 objects with 6 sides each, make 24 sides, but I don't think that makes a d24... which site r u referring to?

http://www.dicecollector.com/diceinfo_how_many_shapes.html

"tetrakis hexahedron" refers to a cube (hexahedron - 6 sides object) with shallow 4-sided pyramids (tetrakis) coming out of each side. Compare to, for example, the triakis tetrahedron, which is essentially a d4 with shallow triangular pyramids coming out of each side.

Take a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_solid for a list of similar shapes.


Tell me how my d5 works then. :smallbiggrin:

From the top face:
http://www.rpgshop.com/images/uploaded/d5.jpg

Most dice are built using the idea that things that are the same will have the same probability, so they use "uniform" polyhedra of some sort. Every face is the same, so the chances you'll land on any given face should be equal.

The d5 you showed is built on the idea that you can get equal probabilities from different things if you construct them correctly. The die is essentially a triangular cylinder... triangles on opposite ends, connected by rectangles (which may be squares.) If a shape like that is constructed correctly, the two triangle sides will be equal to each other, and the three rectangles will be equal to each other, so it's just a matter of balancing the triangles with the rectangles. We can imagine two extreme cases -- a thin triangular "coin", which would almost always land on a triangle side, and a long and skinny triangular pyramid, which would almost always land on the rectangular sides. From this*, we can see that there will be a "balance" point in the middle where the triangle ends and the rectangular sides are at equal probabilities. It's just a matter of figuring out where it is, which is accomplished by building computer simulations, calculating densities, and experimenting with the real thing. In the end, they get as close as they can.



* we actually need two more things: continuity and the mean value theorem. Continuity tells us, essentially, that the probability won't "jump" if we change the shape slightly. Adding another 3 atoms won't make the rectangle sides go from 10% to 30%. The mean value theorem tells us that if we have two endpoints of something continuous, we can find any of the values in between. In this case, we have "each triangle near 50%; each rectangle near 0%" and "each triangle near 0%; each rectangle near 33%" (and the constraint that 2T+3R = 100%) so we know that somewhere in the middle we have to be able to reach 20% on each of the sides.

Fax Celestis
2007-07-06, 11:31 AM
Let me see if I can describe the die to you:

There are two triangular faces, approximately the size of a d4 face. These are connected to three rectangular faces, approximately the width of half of a face of a standard d6 and running the length of the edge of the d4 face.

But these aren't right angle connections. The corners are beveled, adding narrow faces that don't have numbers on them. The die, when it lands on one of these faces, "falls" towards the narrow face, not the d4, due to how the die is weighted.

LotharBot
2007-07-06, 12:31 PM
Think of the beveled corners as part of the rectangular faces.

It still fits in with what I said -- it's just a matter of adjusting the relative size of the triangles and skinny rectangles (accounting for the beveled corners) until the sides become equally probable to land on.

TO_Incognito
2007-07-06, 12:49 PM
I believe the first d30's were created by Lou Zocchi, the founder of Gamescience, one of the first companies to sell polyhedral dice to hobby gamers.

When the first edition D&D box set came out (what I think some people refer to as the "White Box" edition), it came with a set of very soft, poor quality dice, often referred to as "mud dice" because they were usually brown. The plastic used was so soft, the edges quickly wore down, reducing the dice to a roundish spherical shape that was difficult to read. (A few old-timers still carry them in their dice collections for nostalgia, ask around and they can probably show you one.)

To correct the problem of poor quality dice, Lou Zocchi founded Gamescience to mold and sell high-quality precision dice with much sturdier plastics. Back in the day, before Chessex, Koplow, and the Armoury got into the game, Gamescience dice were the best quality you could get. All the Gamescience dice had distinctive sharp edges (and sometimes a small "G" on one of the faces). They originally came un-inked, and you either had to ink them yourself with a finepoint ink pen or fill in the numbers with crayon and then wipe away the excess crayon with a tissue (I believe the blue box edition of D&D included a crayon). The only drawback of the Gamescience dice was there was sometimes a burr or tab where the die was broken off the sprue, and you had to trim this with a hobby knife or sand it down. Other than that, the Gamescience dice were a vast improvement over what you got in the early box sets. Later, the Armoury, Chessex, and Koplow came along, and their dice have high-quality plastic with smoothed edges... Zocchi still pushes his precision gaming dice as "superior", but to some gamers they now look a bit dated.

Zocchi was one of the first to experiment with more specialized or unusual dice, either for homebrew rules or a more obscure game. The D30 was one of his first experiments, and originally when you bought it, it came with a little handout with Critical Hit and Critical Miss tables. Looks like Zocchi may have actually came up with the D30 before he founded Gamescience... they may have been sold first by the Armoury, which sold a whole booklet called "30 Sided Dice Gaming Tables".

Zocchi's crowning achievement was the Zocchihedron, AKA the D100 or "Golfball", that he invented and patented himself. There is no 100-sided polyhedron, but he figured out how to evenly distribute 100 flat "faces" on a plastic sphere. The most distinctive feature of the Zocchihedron is because the faces are so small, it takes a long time to stop rolling. Zocchi's improved the Zocchihedron since then, adding teardrop-shaped weights inside to bring it to a faster stop.

He also developed a custom 16-sided die for ... an RPG I can't recall. Megasomething? He also created a standard d16, which was pretty much forgotten until the Cheapass Games Button Men community discovered it several years ago... and that Zocchi had also come out with a truly unique 7-sided die. While Button Men fanatics were trying to track him down, he developed a new 5-sided die (he already had a d10 numbered 1-5 twice). The D24 came out after that... online gaming stores began to notice the demand for unique specialty dice, and started carrying Gamescience dice. Chessex and Koplow now offer their own versions of the D16 and D24 with smooth edges if you're not keen on the Gamescience casting molds.

Lou Zocchi still goes to Gencon and Origins, so you can find his Gamescience booth there. Otherwise, you can find his dice on several online RPG shops. If you can track down his contact info on an old catalog or online somewhere, you can call him (the Gamescience number is his home phone, and he runs his business out of his garage). But BEWARE: He'll talk your ear off if you let him.

The most recent specialty dice to come out I think are the D3's (lozenge-shaped, also labeled R/P/S) and D14's, some numbered 1-7, some with days of the week above the numbers. A hexidecimal die (another d16) also came out recently, for all of you hardcore coders looking for a little more randomization in your life.

But you really haven't seriously DROOLED over dice until you've seen the Q-Workshop dice.

That was amazing! I think you just won the composite geometry/RPG geek award for the century. Where does one even happen upon that information?

SpiderKoopa
2007-07-06, 01:17 PM
I know another use for the d24!!!
The deck of many things! Which in at least ad&d has a total of 24 cards.
Just thought I'd throw that out there.

onasuma
2007-07-06, 01:22 PM
Ive actually rolled a d30! go me!
It was a alchemy test in Tales from the floating vagabond (old yet great role play game), which proptly turned me green.
Good times

Darrin
2007-07-06, 01:28 PM
* we actually need two more things: continuity and the mean value theorem.

...but you haven't even mentioned potential and kinetic energy thresholds yet.

When you roll a die, there's a specific and finite amount of kinetic energy required to roll the die to a new facing, otherwise it will fall back and settle back down on the current face. I'm not entirely sure just how much scientific research Zocchi put into his D5, but if you take a close look at it, the rectangular edges are "beveled" so that while the triangular faces have a larger surface area, it's a little easier to roll to a rectangular side, and if you land on a bevel, the center of mass has a better chance to pull the die back onto the rectangular face..

Unfortunately, what I discovered when I not-very-scientifically-tested the D5, is the hardness of the surface you roll it on matters a *great deal*. On a hard surface, the odds of landing on a triangular face or a rectangular face are roughly the same. However, on a softer surface, such as a padded vinyl playmat, carpet, tablecloth, etc., the softer surface absorbs a lot more of the "bounce", which means less energy to roll to the next face and the die is much more likely to land on the triangular sides. Fortunately, these sides are "1" and "5", so the average result is still the same (2.5). The same can't be said for the D7, which has "6" and "7" on the pentagonal sides. In that case, the D14 works best for unbiased results.

If you're interested in dice bias in any way (or really, really bored) you can "float" your dice to see if they are really "fair". Melt some epsom salts in a cup of hot water, and put in your dice one at a time to see if they favor any particular side (most dice are not perfectly round, may wear down with use, or may even contain air bubbles). The heaviest end of the die will roll to the bottom, and whatever face is pointing up is more likely to come up than the others. For example, I found out that the green D20 I'd been using for the last 20 years or so was more likely to roll "16" than any other number. Actually, not that bad a number for a bias, assuming once you know that a dice isn't "fair", you still feel comfortable using it.

LotharBot
2007-07-06, 02:26 PM
...but you haven't even mentioned potential and kinetic energy thresholds yet.

Good point. I was explaining the existence of the probability balance point, not exactly how it's found and what nuances are involved in making sure you reach it. But some of the nuances are really interesting.

Physically speaking, a die will come to rest if the center of gravity is directly above a particular face and the die doesn't have enough momentum to move the center of gravity over a different face. That means it's important to balance how much momentum it takes to move off of any given face. I'd imagine that's why the edges are beveled -- essentially, they shrink both the surface area and the required momentum to leave the triangular faces.

As you mentioned, the hardness of the surface you're rolling on matters a great deal. On a softer surface, two things change: first, the energy dissipates faster, reducing the probability of rolling off of a particular side, and second, the final states the shape can come to rest in will change, making those "edges" act as part of the triangular side instead of the rectangular side (note that dice often land on a corner if you throw them on carpet; if they're asymmetrical they'll tend to fall toward the broadest side, which in this case is triangular.) Those two work in concert to produce the effect you described.

de-trick
2007-07-06, 03:29 PM
they forgot a D1 a ball with a 1 on it

Arbitrarity
2007-07-06, 04:14 PM
Nope, a klein bottle. Or a mobius strip.

Kevin_Cook
2007-07-11, 07:47 AM
I believe the first d30's were created by Lou Zocchi, the founder of Gamescience, one of the first companies to sell polyhedral dice to hobby gamers.

The Armory (http://www.dicecollector.com/THE_DICE_THEME_ARMORY.html) created / introduced the D30 ... Lou / Gamescience (http://www.dicecollector.com/THE_DICE_THEME_GAMESCIENCE.html) was just one of the first to sell them


When the first edition D&D box set came out (what I think some people refer to as the "White Box" edition), it came with a set of very soft, poor quality dice, often referred to as "mud dice" because they were usually brown. The plastic used was so soft, the edges quickly wore down, reducing the dice to a roundish spherical shape that was difficult to read. (A few old-timers still carry them in their dice collections for nostalgia, ask around and they can probably show you one.)

Interesting ... my white box never had dice ... it was the blue/red dragon box that had my 'mud dice (http://www.dicecollector.com/diceinfo_dnd_cheapo.jpg)' ...


Gamescience dice were the best quality you could get.

And still are IMO


Zocchi still pushes his precision gaming dice as "superior", but to some gamers they now look a bit dated.

Old School :) ... Lou is still going strong and was doing his spiel for the masses at Origins last week


He also developed a custom 16-sided die for ... an RPG I can't recall. Megasomething?

Metascape (http://www.dicecollector.com/D16_OPAQUE_SHARP_SOLID_METASCAPE.jpg)


Otherwise, you can find his dice on several online RPG shops. If you can track down his contact info on an old catalog or online somewhere, you can call him (the Gamescience number is his home phone, and he runs his business out of his garage).

Gamescience contact info (http://www.dicecollector.com/gamescience.html)


But BEWARE: He'll talk your ear off if you let him.

Yes he will :)


But you really haven't seriously DROOLED over dice until you've seen the Q-Workshop dice.

I agree ... IMO ... Q-Workshop dice (http://www.dicecollector.com/THE_DICE_THEME_Q_WORKSHOP.html) are the most innovative thing to hit the market since the Crystal Caste crystal dice (http://www.dicecollector.com/THE_DICE_THEME_CRYSTAL_CASTE.html)


Here's a site that lists all the die types you're likely to run into. There are new dice shapes being produced all the time by the die companies, but this is fairly comprehensive:

Fairly Comprehensive? ... I would be happy if you can show me a shape that I do not already have :) ... I thought I collected them all (created so far)


Unfortunately, what I discovered when I not-very-scientifically-tested the D5, is the hardness of the surface you roll it on matters a *great deal*. ...

You discovered that as well :) ... I assisted Lou in designing the D3 and it first came to light when testing ... I think it was found that a soft cover on a hard surface (ie felt on wood etc) rendered the best results


If you're interested in dice bias in any way (or really, really bored) you can "float" your dice to see if they are really "fair". Melt some epsom salts in a cup of hot water, and put in your dice one at a time to see if they favor any particular side (most dice are not perfectly round, may wear down with use, or may even contain air bubbles). The heaviest end of the die will roll to the bottom, and whatever face is pointing up is more likely to come up than the others. For example, I found out that the green D20 I'd been using for the last 20 years or so was more likely to roll "16" than any other number. Actually, not that bad a number for a bias, assuming once you know that a dice isn't "fair", you still feel comfortable using it.

WOW ... ya learn something new every day !!! THANK YOU

rollfrenzy
2007-07-11, 09:39 AM
Great. now I have to go out and buy a bunch of dice that I won't even use. :smallsmile:


Cool thread, neat to learn some of the math and background of dice.

brian c
2007-07-11, 09:47 AM
Okay, I guess it's time for one of the old gamers to weigh in and tell the story.

For the mathies: a d30 is a rhombic triacontahedron.

That answers my question, thank you. I appreciated the picture, but I couldn't really tell what shape it was.

I still prefer the platonic solids; I'd really rather not use a d10, but it's the easiest way to do percentiles.

Edit: How the heck can you have a d6 shaped like a sphere? It wouldn't stop rolling... I'm confused.

also


Edit: What's the next "regular" shape after d20? d24? d28? I'm guessing it has to be some kind of multiple of 4.

I'm pretty certain that the only regular polyhedra are, in dice terms, a d4, d6, d8, d12 and d20. That's why there are 5 Platonic elements (Fire, Air, Water, Earth, Cosmos)

shakes019
2007-07-11, 09:55 AM
I believe TSR had a game named Gamma World that used d30s.

truemane
2007-07-11, 10:08 AM
You can also use it when playing the Window.

The Window (http://www.mimgames.com/window/)

I used to use my d30 as an arbitrary threat for players who intentionally derailed my plot-lines.

"You stab the Innkeeper and he dies before passing on the whereabouts of the Hidden Dragon Lair. Suddenly the Inn caves in on your head, doing"...roll..."26 damage. Jerk."

Darrin
2007-07-11, 10:48 AM
The Armory (http://www.dicecollector.com/THE_DICE_THEME_ARMORY.html) created / introduced the D30 ... Lou / Gamescience (http://www.dicecollector.com/THE_DICE_THEME_GAMESCIENCE.html) was just one of the first to sell them


Next time I run into him, I'll have to ask Lou about which came first. I suspect Gamescience was an offshoot of the Armoury, but the best person to ask would be Lou.



Interesting ... my white box never had dice ... it was the blue/red dragon box that had my 'mud dice (http://www.dicecollector.com/diceinfo_dnd_cheapo.jpg)' ...


I'm not sure those are the first "mud dice", I think there might have been some dice included in one of the box sets before the blue/red dragon box... colors would have been brown, maybe white or cream. I'll have to do more research on that issue. The dice you have pictured there may have been slightly better quality (but still wore down and flaked quite a bit), and I think the colors were standardized (the d12 was always blue, etc.).



Fairly Comprehensive? ... I would be happy if you can show me a shape that I do not already have :) ... I thought I collected them all (created so far)


Well, we don't have a d9 or a d18 yet, although a dipyrimidal d18 would be easy enough to do. No d60 yet, either.

As far as your personal collection... any chance you could put me in your will? And then die (pun intended) shortly thereafter?

(Why is nobody manufacturing a rhombic dodecahedron? Keppler would be so pissed.)



You discovered that as well :) ... I assisted Lou in designing the D3 and it first came to light when testing ... I think it was found that a soft cover on a hard surface (ie felt on wood etc) rendered the best results


The D3 rolls fine on any surface, no problem there. The D5 worked best on a hard surface for me (wooden table, formica, hardcover book, etc.). I didn't try the D7, that might have problems on a softer surface (any chance you can get Lou to switch the "6" and "1" faces so the average roll would be the same?).



WOW ... ya learn something new every day !!! THANK YOU

Please tell me you're not going to do this with every die you own...

(Some of the heavier dice, such as the d30, are too dense to float in epsom salts. Not entirely sure if any denser liquids would work for the heavier dice.)

Is the patent for the Wedge D4 still in effect? Any chance it might expire soon?

TomTheRat
2007-07-11, 11:08 AM
Friends, friends, friends. While it is true that Dungeons and Dragons has long neglected the d30, there is another game which was actually built -around- the d30. The game is called Morton's List:

http://www.mortonslist.com/

It would possibly be the most awesome real-life game there is. Basically, everyone who plays (4-6 or whatever) swear an oath do do whatever the book tells them to do for at least an hour. Then you roll the d30 3 times, and the list comes up with something fun for you to do.

Unfortunately the d30 precedes Morton's List. For some reason, I remember there being 1 monster in the FF or something that did 1-30 damage on one of his attacks. I could be mistaken though.

LotharBot
2007-07-11, 01:56 PM
How the heck can you have a d6 shaped like a sphere? It wouldn't stop rolling...

Friction. Eventually it'll stop. (Depending on the weight of the die, the smoothness of the surface, the hardness of the surface, and various other factors, "eventually" may be a long time.)


I'm pretty certain that the only regular polyhedra are, in dice terms, a d4, d6, d8, d12 and d20. That's why there are 5 Platonic elements (Fire, Air, Water, Earth, Cosmos)

Yes... when speaking of polyhedra, "regular" is a technical term referring to those with all identical, regular faces where every vertex matches. There are only five regular convex polyhedra.

There are also four regular "star" polyhedra called the Kepler-Poinsot Polyhedra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kepler-Poinsot_polyhedra).

There are a number of other polyhedra that work well for dice, in particular, the dipyramids (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bipyramids). While some vertices differ from others, every face is identical. This is where we get our d10, d14, d16, and various other dice.

brian c
2007-07-11, 02:28 PM
Friction. Eventually it'll stop. (Depending on the weight of the die, the smoothness of the surface, the hardness of the surface, and various other factors, "eventually" may be a long time.)

I guess what I meant to say is why? it would be way more trouble than it's worth, and even if you have 6 equal areas shaded for the numbers 1-6, it could possibly stop with a border facing up... so what do you do then?



Yes... when speaking of polyhedra, "regular" is a technical term referring to those with all identical, regular faces where every vertex matches. There are only five regular convex polyhedra.

There are also four regular "star" polyhedra called the Kepler-Poinsot Polyhedra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kepler-Poinsot_polyhedra).

There are a number of other polyhedra that work well for dice, in particular, the dipyramids (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bipyramids). While some vertices differ from others, every face is identical. This is where we get our d10, d14, d16, and various other dice.

As I previously mentioned, I don't like d10s. They just look weird when they're rolling.

Kevin_Cook
2007-07-11, 04:26 PM
I'm pretty certain that the only regular polyhedra are, in dice terms, a d4, d6, d8, d12 and d20. That's why there are 5 Platonic elements (Fire, Air, Water, Earth, Cosmos)

Correct (http://mathworld.wolfram.com/PlatonicSolid.html)


I believe TSR had a game named Gamma World that used d30s.

I played a lot of Gamma World ... and its precursor ... Metamorphasis Alpha ... and I do not recall a D30 ... as they both predated the Armory release


Next time I run into him, I'll have to ask Lou about which came first. I suspect Gamescience was an offshoot of the Armory, but the best person to ask would be Lou.

True ... I spoke to him on Sunday and ... strangely enough .. he gave me one of the color changing d30's from the Armory


I'm not sure those are the first "mud dice", I think there might have been some dice included in one of the box sets before the blue/red dragon box... colors would have been brown, maybe white or cream. I'll have to do more research on that issue. The dice you have pictured there may have been slightly better quality (but still wore down and flaked quite a bit), and I think the colors were standardized (the d12 was always blue, etc.).

You are not the first to say that ... Strange thing is ... I have been gaming since Aug '77 and have never seen these dice ... the only ones I have seen from TSR are the ones above ... and the Dragon Dice (not the collectable game)



Well, we don't have a d9 or a d18 yet, although a dipyrimidal d18 would be easy enough to do. No d60 yet, either.

Actually there are:

Five different d9's ( some fair and some not ... Jason Huff / Alexander Simkin's and my d9 are fair)

Two different d18's ( one mine and one Gamescience (unfair die))

As to the d60 ... that is all mine (http://www.dicecollector.com/PAPER_D60_MY_DESIGN_DELTOIDAL_HEXECONTAHEDRON.jpg)

For a full list of the dice shapes I have collected to date ... Click Here (http://www.dicecollector.com/diceinfo_how_many_shapes.html)


As far as your personal collection... any chance you could put me in your will? And then die (pun intended) shortly thereafter?

Actually ... there is a fellow dice collector who will inherit the dice


(Why is nobody manufacturing a rhombic dodecahedron? Keppler would be so pissed.)

Uni*Sun (http://www.dicecollector.com/D12_OPAQUE_SHARP_SOLID_5.jpg) does


Please tell me you're not going to do this with every die you own...

LOL ... no plans to :)


(Some of the heavier dice, such as the d30, are too dense to float in epsom salts. Not entirely sure if any denser liquids would work for the heavier dice.)

Perhaps Mercury?


Is the patent for the Wedge D4 still in effect? Any chance it might expire soon?

The Wedge d4 patent (http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect2=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&d=PALL&RefSrch=yes&Query=PN/4,346,900) should have expired in 1997 (15 years) ... BUT ... there is a problem that there is an international patent on them and as a result ... noone can produce them for export ... As I understand it



Unfortunately the d30 precedes Morton's List. For some reason, I remember there being 1 monster in the FF or something that did 1-30 damage on one of his attacks. I could be mistaken though.

Cool ... I will have to check it out sometime


As I previously mentioned, I don't like d10s. They just look weird when they're rolling.

I agree ... I am too 'old school' ... I still use d20's numbered 0-9 twice

Fax Celestis
2007-07-11, 07:21 PM
OMG ZODIAC DICE. Where can I acquire those?

Kevin_Cook
2007-07-11, 08:26 PM
OMG ZODIAC DICE. Where can I acquire those?

For the Uni*Sun ... you have to watch ebay

For the OTHERS (http://www.dicecollector.com/THE_DICE_THEME_DIVINATION.html) it depends on which set you are looking for

Fax Celestis
2007-07-11, 08:31 PM
Man, I don't care. I'd make the zodiac a bigger part of the game if I could randomly generate it via a d12.

EDIT: Nevermind. I just found a use for my d14!

JackMage666
2007-07-11, 08:49 PM
A d14 would be a kinda fitting change for a Greataxe (it makes a bit more sense a Greataxe would do a bit more damage, but still has a chance to do less than a Greatsword).

I have never found a use for my d30 RAW, but I've not gone outside of D&D. They're good as a DM, though, since you can make some nice random tables (encounter, magic items, ect.). But that's the only use I've found.

Skyserpent
2007-07-11, 09:40 PM
A d14 would be a kinda fitting change for a Greataxe (it makes a bit more sense a Greataxe would do a bit more damage, but still has a chance to do less than a Greatsword).

It already does. A Crit with a Greataxe offers x3 damage, whereas witha Greatsword it's a more reliable, but less damaging x2. That makes perfect sense. A Greatsword is much easier to hit critical points with than a less well balanced axe.

Kevin_Cook
2007-07-12, 11:10 AM
Man, I don't care. I'd make the zodiac a bigger part of the game if I could randomly generate it via a d12.

This set (http://www.dicecollector.com/D12_OPAQUE_ROUNDED_IRIDESCENT_ASTRODICE.jpg) may be the way to go for you then ... as they are pretty common


EDIT: Nevermind. I just found a use for my d14!

Cool ... How so?

Fax Celestis
2007-07-12, 11:14 AM
This set (http://www.dicecollector.com/D12_OPAQUE_ROUNDED_IRIDESCENT_ASTRODICE.jpg) may be the way to go for you then ... as they are pretty common



Cool ... How so?

Two words: Homebrew. Zodiac.

Kevin_Cook
2007-07-12, 12:23 PM
Two words: Homebrew. Zodiac.

LOL ... so the 12 normal zodiac symbols + 2 more?

....
2007-07-12, 12:33 PM
In Dungeons and Dragons you may find yourself breaking into tunnels at night, worshipping the Devil, or totally nerding out and dressing in costumes. While it is true that some Quests in Morton's List include the potential for these exact activities, that is where all parallels end. Morton's List includes 360 unique, real-life Quests that can be taken as far the player's are morally comfortable, while the other is an imaginary game of pretend that some people have taken way too far. The 30-sided die, or Morton Boulder, is used to roll Quests, but that's where the dice rolling (usually) ends.


Screw you, Morton's List.

Darrin
2007-07-12, 12:46 PM
This set (http://www.dicecollector.com/D12_OPAQUE_ROUNDED_IRIDESCENT_ASTRODICE.jpg) may be the way to go for you then ... as they are pretty common


Koplow makes a black 12-sided Zodiac die, along with a white 12-sided Planets die that you can buy as singles. Koplow also carries Astrodice (linked above), and while they are much prettier, the whole set is a bit pricier (about $4.30 per die).

I believe Chessex also makes a similar Zodiac and Planets die, but they're smaller than the Koplow d12s.

Now if I could just track down those darned I Ching dice...

AMX
2007-07-12, 01:07 PM
The Wedge d4 patent (http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect2=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&d=PALL&RefSrch=yes&Query=PN/4,346,900) should have expired in 1997 (15 years) ... BUT ... there is a problem that there is an international patent on them and as a result ... noone can produce them for export ... As I understand it
There's no such thing as an "international patent".
And most national patents would have expired by now, too (unless they were filed several years later than the US patent - rendering them invalid due to the "prior publishing" clause).

Kevin_Cook
2007-07-12, 01:13 PM
Koplow makes a black 12-sided Zodiac die, along with a white 12-sided Planets die that you can buy as singles.

Interesting ... I didnt know that THESE (http://www.dicecollector.com/D12_OPAQUE_ROUNDED_SOLID_6.jpg) were Koplow ... I got mine from a direct retailer who sells direct from Dice and Games ... I didnt even think to look at what Koplow had for sale at Origins ... I just picked up my order which was already prepared


Koplow also carries Astrodice (linked above), and while they are much prettier, the whole set is a bit pricier (about $4.30 per die).

I agree ... these are much more visually appealing


I believe Chessex also makes a similar Zodiac and Planets die, but they're smaller than the Koplow d12s.

I wasnt sure about an answer to this one ... so I called my buddy at Chessex

They dont make a 12 sided ... but at the bottom the Divination Dice (http://www.dicecollector.com/THE_DICE_THEME_DIVINATION.html) page .. you can see the 6 sided zodiac dice that they do make

They used to sell a set like you describe from Dice & Games in the UK



Now if I could just track down those darned I Ching dice...

Yea ... unfortunately as those are out of print ... ebay is your best bet

Or I could make you a paper template if you like

Kevin_Cook
2007-07-12, 01:21 PM
There's no such thing as an "international patent".

Probably true .. but there is a EU patent ... as I know the patent examiner who dealt with it ... as well as the current patent holder


And most national patents would have expired by now, too (unless they were filed several years later than the US patent - rendering them invalid due to the "prior publishing" clause).

As I understand it ... Prior Art does does not cross borders ... I will have to check with my buddy in the EU patent office to be sure

This gets really messy ... I know that both the wedge shaped Dragon Dice and the manufacturer of this set (http://www.dicecollector.com/D4_OPAQUE_ROUNDED_SWIRL_WEDGE.jpg) either were forced or chose to cease production due to possible patent infringement (either Literal or under the Doctrine of Equivalents)

Darrin
2007-07-12, 01:37 PM
Interesting ... I didnt know that THESE (http://www.dicecollector.com/D12_OPAQUE_ROUNDED_SOLID_6.jpg) were Koplow ... I got mine from a direct retailer who sells direct from Dice and Games ... I didnt even think to look at what Koplow had for sale at Origins ... I just picked up my order which was already prepared


Those are the smaller dice I believe I picked up at the Chessex booth. The Koplow Zodiac/Planet are bigger, they look like:

http://www.advancinghordes.com/popup_image.php?pID=1125
http://www.advancinghordes.com/popup_image.php?pID=1126

The smaller zodiac dice may not have been Chessex... they're about half the size of a standard 16mm d12. I picked them up at Origins a couple years ago, maybe at the booth that had the Q-Workshop dice, the hexidecimal d16s, the kanji d10s, and the weird 2d6 with different pip scheme (they actually mentioned you by name as I was picking out dice, next time I go to Origins maybe I'll be able to run into you).

ray53208
2007-07-12, 01:38 PM
ive got a d30 and a d16.

Kevin_Cook
2007-07-12, 02:10 PM
Those are the smaller dice I believe I picked up at the Chessex booth. The Koplow Zodiac/Planet are bigger, they look like:

http://www.advancinghordes.com/popup_image.php?pID=1125
http://www.advancinghordes.com/popup_image.php?pID=1126

I believe both of those are Dice & Games ... as my copies of those came from them


The smaller zodiac dice may not have been Chessex... they're about half the size of a standard 16mm d12. I picked them up at Origins a couple years ago, maybe at the booth that had the Q-Workshop dice, the hexidecimal d16s, the kanji d10s, and the weird 2d6 with different pip scheme (they actually mentioned you by name as I was picking out dice, next time I go to Origins maybe I'll be able to run into you).

Funny ... the booth you speak of had to be our booth (GameStation.net) if for no other reason than you mentioned the HexiDie (http://www.dicecollector.com/D16_OPAQUE_ROUNDED_SOLID_01_GAMESTATION.jpg) which is my design ... also ... were you speaking of this set (http://www.dicecollector.com/MINT11_GAMESTATION_01_SICHERMAN_DICE.jpg) when you said "weird 2d6 with different pip scheme"

Unfortunately ... this year was my first and last year for Origins ... It was very nice to meet up with friends ... but Origins just isnt GenCon


ive got a d30 and a d16.

Now ... to find a use for a 2-46 roll :)

AMX
2007-07-12, 02:18 PM
As I understand it ... Prior Art does does not cross borders ... I will have to check with my buddy in the EU patent office to be sure

I can't find such a provision in the EPC - maybe it's buried in some non-logical place, but it's definitely not in Article 54 - Novelty (http://www.european-patent-office.org/legal/epc/e/ar54.html)

Kevin_Cook
2007-07-12, 02:41 PM
I can't find such a provision in the EPC - maybe it's buried in some non-logical place, but it's definitely not in Article 54 - Novelty (http://www.european-patent-office.org/legal/epc/e/ar54.html)

Yea ... that is kinda vague ... as was my prior statement .. what I meant to say was crossing borders ... treating the EU as one entity ... I notice that make no claims about patents from countries not in the EU

Kevin_Cook
2007-07-12, 02:45 PM
Regarding International patents ... I just remembered WIPO (http://www.wipo.int/classifications/en/) (World Intellectual Property Organization) ... I discovered them when I was doing my Dice Patent search ...

"The Strasbourg Agreement (of 1971) concerning the International Patent Classification provides for a common classification for patents for invention including published patent applications, utility models and utility certificates. The International Patent Classification (IPC) is a hierarchical system in which the whole area of technology is divided into a range of sections, classes, subclasses and groups. This system is indispensable for the retrieval of patent documents in the search for establishing the novelty of an invention or determining the state of the art in a particular area of technology."