Frenzied Barbarian houserule query

[Nero24200]

Hello everyone.

I'm going to be DMing a solo player game of 5e but when looking at the Frenzied barbarian abilities a few things stand out. When using a Frenzied rage the Barbarian gains an Exhaustion level - wow that seems harsh. I was thinking of house-ruling it so that exhaustion levels gained from Frenzy are removed after a short rest - is this alright or is there something I'm missing that justifies the exhaustion levels?

[Belac93]

Hello everyone.

I'm going to be DMing a solo player game of 5e but when looking at the Frenzied barbarian abilities a few things stand out. When using a Frenzied rage the Barbarian gains an Exhaustion level - wow that seems harsh. I was thinking of house-ruling it so that exhaustion levels gained from Frenzy are removed after a short rest - is this alright or is there something I'm missing that justifies the exhaustion levels?

Seems good. I believe that is a generally accepted houserule.

Another option that I have seen used a lot, is that you do not gain exhaustion the first time you frenzy after every long rest.

[MaxWilson]

Hello everyone.

I'm going to be DMing a solo player game of 5e but when looking at the Frenzied barbarian abilities a few things stand out. When using a Frenzied rage the Barbarian gains an Exhaustion level - wow that seems harsh. I was thinking of house-ruling it so that exhaustion levels gained from Frenzy are removed after a short rest - is this alright or is there something I'm missing that justifies the exhaustion levels?

FWIW,

You might be interested to read the design logic behind exhaustion from JeremyCrawford:

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/756187717143101440


@JeremyECrawford Berserker - why does Frenzy cause exhaustion when there are other ways to get a BA attack that do not? Seems out of place


@dmvarrowe69 Frenzy's excellence rests in the fact that the bonus melee attack has no conditionals. Just keep that rage going!

In this case I think the designers goofed--the lack of conditions is insufficiently awesome to justify the need for exhaustion, especially on a class like the Barbarian that is going to spend all of its time attacking anyway. But it seems like you could remove the exhaustion entirely and Crawford won't complain as long as you just add a condition: you only get the bonus melee attack if you Attack.

Bear in mind that Frenzy still doesn't give you a bonus attack until the round after you activate it, and I think that still leaves Frenzy in a state where it's good but not dominant: you won't suddenly see every Barbarian in your campaign playing a Berserker. Totem Barbarians will still exist, and so will Fighters/Paladins/etc. To me that means it's in about the right spot, whereas the RAW Berserker is a bit too constrained by exhaustion to be fun.

[Zman]

You are correct, the exhaustion penalty is too harsh. If you want to see some basic math on it check the spreadsheet in my signature. What I proposed for a Houserule is removing the exhaustion penalty, but frenzy can't be used again until you finish a short or long rest. Makes it a 3x per day maximum ability that really packs a punch when used, but is definitely a short rest damage boost ability.

Berserker really comes online at 14th with Retaliatory Strike, it often will add an additional attack per round. Can't be Reckless, but it considerably adds to a Berserkers a damage output and makes them king of the hill as far as single target damage is concerned.

Simply removing exhaustion and to a lessor degree letting all gained exhaustion levels to be removed on a short rest can cause frenzy to be heavily used which makes the Barbarian extremely strong especially when Reckless and GWM are on the table. Removing a level of exhaustion on a Short Rest is fine, but be careful letting them ignore the effects of exhaustion while frenzied which is another popular suggested fix.

Another suggested fix that Kryx supports is making the Frenzy attack not cost a bonus action and allow a Short Rest to remove a level of Frenzy exhaustion.

[jas61292]

Ultimately, how harsh it is depends a lot on what else you allow. In my experience, if you are allowing all feats, and thus things like Polearm Master that allows a free bonus action attack without any downside, then the exhaustion is terrible and almost never worth it. The lack of conditionals on the attacks is nice, but not good enough to justify the downside when you can get something nearly as good without any downside.

If you are not allowing those things in your game, it goes from a slightly better bonus action attack, to one of the more powerful offensive features in the game, and the downside, while still harsh, is a lot more fair.

Similarly, various multiclassing options also open up ways for barbarians to boost damage output without a downside. If multiclassing is not allowed, frenzy is once again relatively stronger compared to other options.

Personally, I see absolutely no problem with frenzy as is for a completely vanilla game with no variant rules. But once you start introducing other options, it gets weaker and weaker to the point that it is almost never worth using. If you want to use variant rules, a house rule like you suggested would do a lot to make frenzy a good, viable option.

[Fflewddur Fflam]

Originally Posted by JeremyECrawford
@dmvarrowe69 Frenzy's excellence rests in the fact that the bonus melee attack has no conditionals. Just keep that rage going!

"Frenzy's excellence"????? What the hell is he talking about? Does Crawford actually play the game or is he playing a Berserker in a different way than everyone else?

[Vogonjeltz]

Hello everyone.

I'm going to be DMing a solo player game of 5e but when looking at the Frenzied barbarian abilities a few things stand out. When using a Frenzied rage the Barbarian gains an Exhaustion level - wow that seems harsh. I was thinking of house-ruling it so that exhaustion levels gained from Frenzy are removed after a short rest - is this alright or is there something I'm missing that justifies the exhaustion levels?

Frenzy damage is unparalleled and comes online earlier than any other second attack (every round) using a two-handed weapon.

[MaxWilson]

Frenzy damage is unparalleled and comes online earlier than any other second attack (every round) using a two-handed weapon.

Frenzy: two attacks per round (after the first round, which gives only one) at 3rd level.
Polearm Master: three attacks per round (if the reaction attack is trigger, else two) at 1st level.

[Zalabim]

Berserker really comes online at 14th with Retaliatory Strike, it often will add an additional attack per round. Can't be Reckless, but it considerably adds to a Berserkers a damage output and makes them king of the hill as far as single target damage is concerned.

You actually could use reckless on retaliatory strike if you take the damage that triggers it on your turn. Provoke opportunity attacks. Bean an Azer. Stand next to a Balor. That kind of thing.


Frenzy: two attacks per round (after the first round, which gives only one) at 3rd level.
Polearm Master: three attacks per round (if the reaction attack is trigger, else two) at 1st level.


Ultimately, how harsh it is depends a lot on what else you allow. In my experience, if you are allowing all feats, and thus things like Polearm Master that allows a free bonus action attack without any downside

Other than dealing less damage with every attack, having reach which changes the area you control with opportunity attacks (more like a trade-off here), requiring you to play a stand-off combat style in order to benefit from it, and being a variant human to start with it or paying an ASI later rather than having any other racial abilities. No downsides at all, other than those downsides.

Polearm Master is worth its downsides or more, but it does have downsides.

[MaxWilson]

Other than dealing less damage with every attack, having reach which changes the area you control with opportunity attacks (more like a trade-off here), requiring you to play a stand-off combat style in order to benefit from it, and being a variant human to start with it or paying an ASI later rather than having any other racial abilities. No downsides at all, other than those downsides.

Polearm Master is worth its downsides or more, but it does have downsides.

I never said it didn't. Among them, the facts that (1) you have to be in melee range, and (2) you can't use a shield or grapple (unless you're using quarterstaff cheese).

You might be confusing me with somebody else. Or at least, I don't know why you felt compelled to quote me before making this point.

[gfishfunk]

Remove it on a short rest but require spending 2 hit die. That gives it balance and cost.